Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[MizunoJoe]

Here we go again ... Sam KNEW!

 

 

He's already snap rolled 90 degs in the right pic, after rolling it open 90 degs going back.

 

I agree ... question is HOW he executed the "90 degree snap roll".

 

You mean left elbow action vs left forearm/wrist action?

[grahler]

To me the face closure was slowed by right hand (fingers to be exact) driving the whole shaft forward with added benefit of extending low point of arc. Not full roll IMO. Full snap roll is not consistent but it is powerful-thats not what Hogan did.

[moehogan]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315886554' post='3560518']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1315880345' post='3560256']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315878722' post='3560170']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1315859237' post='3559425']
Although I am not sure I believe it, it is a possible explanation why you guy say he is rolling and I don't see it. Resistance of the right arm is preventing a roll and you guys are seeing the torque in the arm.
[/quote]

Didn't he say 3 right hands at impact? So how can that be resistance? With his fast pivot and all those anti-close mechanisms, if he's not rolling he'll hit it foul right all the time. And he'll lose yardage big time, I'd say maybe at least 20 yards with a driver (though he said just 5 yards in '55 Life article).

I dare to say, with his relatively small height, his best weapon, his indispensable weapon, that he cannot afford to leave at home is the full rolling. Without that he just won't match up with the big guys such as Snead and Nelson. He won't have that 132 clubhead speed (darn is that true? 132?).

I just incorporated, permanently, the full rolling a week ago (after believing for so long against it..yeah even if I've been posting FOR it...lol) and I gained 25yards in a wedge! I was so shocked I decided to adopt it permanently and work around it and just find a way to prevent the lefts. And I think it's not only got to do with increased clubhead speed, there's also the "clean strike" Mr. Hogan talked about. He really said it all.
[/quote]
You can hit with FIVE right hands if your hands are turning in opposite directions through impact.

From here, a full roll might put you in the left ... or right field bleachers! [url="http://www.julesalexander.com/hogan.html"]A Study in Power[/url]
[/quote]

If you slow pivot, slow hands, straighten the angle, lose the pitch, magically squares the 5degree open face and flip, yes you'll hit the bleachers. He found a way to slow down that face closure even with full rolling as hell. And you'll have a better chance of discovering it the smaller in height you are...the 6degree flatter lies/clubs, remember...
[/quote]

Maybe we are caught up in semantics here. By "full roll" I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that you are talking about a horizontal hinging action that produces a "toe up" clubhead shortly after impact.

Look closely at the first pic I posted of Mr. H's hands. At address, left is a little strong and the right is very weak. At impact, right has become much stronger and the left much weaker ... a VERY different orientation than address. They have SEPARATED from the top of the handle. If all Mr. H was doing was a full roll, why does the relationship of his hands to one another change so markedly?

BTW, my Hogan's ARE 6 degrees flat, but only 2 degrees open ... I'm 5'11" and they work just fine ... LOL..

[moehogan]

Here we go again ... Sam KNEW!

 

 

He's already snap rolled 90 degs in the right pic, after rolling it open 90 degs going back.

 

I agree ... question is HOW he executed the "90 degree snap roll".

 

You mean left elbow action vs left forearm/wrist action?

I'm talking about hands working in opposing circular directions with the use of grip pressure points. Not saying that's what Mr. H did, but it can provide the "governor" needed to turn a hard, crossover action into a neutral, face square to the arc action while keeping the pivot and hands accelerating through impact.. Start turning the last three fingers of the left hand CCW and the middle two fingers of the right hand CW after you have arrived at a position to hit to a point past impact. Relaxing the opposition will allow the finish swivel to happen.

[moehogan]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1315887955' post='3560565']
To me the face closure was slowed by right hand (fingers to be exact) driving the whole shaft forward with added benefit of extending low point of arc. Not full roll IMO. Full snap roll is not consistent but it is powerful-thats not what Hogan did.


[/quote]
Which right hand fingers do you think control this action?

[grahler]

Base of index finger for me but didn't Hogan mention the middle two fingers-thats one feel I cannot replicate.
To me the driving right hand pressure is on that base of the index finger.
Look how well Hogan has it aligned in above impact hands photo-very well aligned to drive through on plane IMO.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1315886239' post='3560502']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315878722' post='3560170']

I just incorporated, permanently, the full rolling a week ago (after believing for so long against it..yeah even if I've been posting FOR it...lol) and I gained 25yards in a wedge! I was so shocked I decided to adopt it permanently and work around it and just find a way to prevent the lefts. And I think it's not only got to do with increased clubhead speed, there's also the "clean strike" Mr. Hogan talked about. He really said it all.
[/quote]

You too? LOL

Actually, when I try to snap roll at release, it doesn't really happen that fast, and gives me a square clubface at impact. And you're right about impact too - it just gives a crisp, clean contact I don't otherwise get. TGMers call this "Delivery Line Roll", and it has to be programmed in well before impact.
[/quote]

Lol... Yeah.. 25yards in a 56degree wedge. But I'm hitting against slight gutses of wind since before and after, so lower/more penetrating ballflight gained me more yards than usual.. Lol. I turned a SW into a PW...just as Hogan said...

And yes, it doesn't close too fast actually. I'm surprised too, I think everyone's instinct will tell you it's gonna be closed/left, but it doesn't. PA#3 baby!!!

Can you clarify the programming before impact?..lol..

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1315852094' post='3559134']
I have found on thing that explains quite many things. By that Tom Bertrand can be right with the left elbow and it also explains why Hogans wrists separated at impact. It also gives the reason to twist arms triangle open and keep the right elbow in.

"You don't steer only to the left, You steer also to the right"
[/quote]

Tee, don't get the reasoning. Why would you twist open the triangle? To counter or put opposite resistance on left elbow rolling? Wouldn't that lessen clubhead speed. I see the separation because Hogan is indeed going really hard forward with just PP#3 as he said in Coleman video and 5Lessons. He doesn't care about keeping those palms/wrists attached at impact, he just wanna go forward with just PP#3. But not with PA#1 though, coz that would mean right tricep, which is not inside muscle. He did it with right pectoral and right inside forearm. Left hand full roll is inside left forearm and brachialis (Google it...lol..) by the way.

No matter how hard/fast you go forward with PP#3 and you roll with left arm/elbow/wrist/shoulder/whatever, it won't close fast enough because there's a built in/fixed mechanism he had. I wonder if he has that pre-secret. And I'm not claiming it's a secret, in fact it's there in 5Lessons.

[drewspin]

Come on, guys. Share your ideas and spell it out.

I put out there what I saw, and so far a couple who have experimented have reported SIGNIFICANT speed/distance gains.

[ej002]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1315887955' post='3560565']
To me the face closure was slowed by right hand (fingers to be exact) driving the whole shaft forward with added benefit of extending low point of arc. Not full roll IMO. Full snap roll is not consistent but it is powerful-thats not what Hogan did.
[/quote]


[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1315888326' post='3560578']
Maybe we are caught up in semantics here. By "full roll" I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that you are talking about a horizontal hinging action that produces a "toe up" clubhead shortly after impact.

Look closely at the first pic I posted of Mr. H's hands. At address, left is a little strong and the right is very weak. At impact, right has become much stronger and the left much weaker ... a VERY different orientation than address. They have SEPARATED from the top of the handle. If all Mr. H was doing was a full roll, why does the relationship of his hands to one another change so markedly?

BTW, my Hogan's ARE 6 degrees flat, but only 2 degrees open ... I'm 5'11" and they work just fine ... LOL..
[/quote]


I don't want to burst your guys' bubble, but the photos dont prove what you are saying about left rolling and right resisting. THe difference in those two pictures is shaft lien. Get into a Hogan grip with midbody (high) hands. Then push your hands forward to create shaft lien. HELLLO - there is the separation.



[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315903387' post='3560764']

I just incorporated, permanently, the full rolling a week ago (after believing for so long against it..yeah even if I've been posting FOR it...lol) and I gained 25yards in a wedge! I was so shocked I decided to adopt it permanently and work around it and just find a way to prevent the lefts. And I think it's not only got to do with increased clubhead speed, there's also the "clean strike" Mr. Hogan talked about. He really said it all.
[/quote]

Did you pick upt 25yds with the 3iron? Or are you having trouble getting it off the ground?

[ej002]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315877466' post='3560114']
All those (open clubface, grip, pronation, cupping, pitch, early return left, etc.) are designed to prevent/retard clubface closure too soon at impact given that he's full rolling. People with relatively higher bs plane can't full roll because their swing path is less in to out (more left), they'll hit it left for sure.

I don't see the little chicken winging. Maybe in some big fade shots. In fact his trademark is his followthru wherein his left elbow is so in front of the torso with hands high. So how can he be chicken winging even a little?

Don't see it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI_yEtX7iJ8&feature=youtube_gdata_player
[/quote]

So "chickenwinging" is a poor choice of words.

Look here at 1:08 - when his left arm is at 3 o'clock on the follow through. The cup in this left eblow is facing the camera. No full roll. If he was full rolling that would be pointed down. He is pulling left with that lat and holding that elbow in that position. This is the complete opposite of what you guys are saying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTvH0VquOEs&feature=related




All I am saying is between 8 an 9 there is not active roll. What you see has to happen or he would miss the ball. Look how much his shoulder goes up and back, it is drastic change in direction. now you want to add forearm roll to that? Now look at pictures 10 and 11 (I wish there was an 11.5). You don't see a violent over throw of the right going over the left and the left arm folding, the left arm appears to keep the status quo. With that much pivot power how did he do that? IMO it cannot be b/c he was rolling forearms.

Again, if anything we should look at the upper arm, there may be something going on there that the forearm is reacting to.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1315923888' post='3561066']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1315887955' post='3560565']
To me the face closure was slowed by right hand (fingers to be exact) driving the whole shaft forward with added benefit of extending low point of arc. Not full roll IMO. Full snap roll is not consistent but it is powerful-thats not what Hogan did.
[/quote]


[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1315888326' post='3560578']
Maybe we are caught up in semantics here. By "full roll" I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that you are talking about a horizontal hinging action that produces a "toe up" clubhead shortly after impact.

Look closely at the first pic I posted of Mr. H's hands. At address, left is a little strong and the right is very weak. At impact, right has become much stronger and the left much weaker ... a VERY different orientation than address. They have SEPARATED from the top of the handle. If all Mr. H was doing was a full roll, why does the relationship of his hands to one another change so markedly?

BTW, my Hogan's ARE 6 degrees flat, but only 2 degrees open ... I'm 5'11" and they work just fine ... LOL..
[/quote]


I don't want to burst your guys' bubble, but the photos dont prove what you are saying about left rolling and right resisting. THe difference in those two pictures is shaft lien. Get into a Hogan grip with midbody (high) hands. Then push your hands forward to create shaft lien. HELLLO - there is the separation.



[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315903387' post='3560764']

I just incorporated, permanently, the full rolling a week ago (after believing for so long against it..yeah even if I've been posting FOR it...lol) and I gained 25yards in a wedge! I was so shocked I decided to adopt it permanently and work around it and just find a way to prevent the lefts. And I think it's not only got to do with increased clubhead speed, there's also the "clean strike" Mr. Hogan talked about. He really said it all.
[/quote]

Did you pick upt 25yds with the 3iron? Or are you having trouble getting it off the ground?
[/quote]

Don't use a 3-iron. But I can hit my 4-iron with standard 3-iron length shafts off the ground, though not yet to my satisfaction. I'm really extensioning, so I don't have trouble getting balls off the ground.

You know, when I hit one right, it's really a bullet, piercing trajectory that I've never experiences before. It felt so effortless, feels slow as MJ said, so your instinct will be it's gonna be a weak shot..then when you see the ball..I'm shocked, really..I said to myself, WTF?! Did I half-ball it or what?! Then another swing, then another, then when I hit another correctly, another bullet..and I say, no, that's not half-ball! And I've got forged clubs, so my feel can't be wrong..this experience I think just doubled my addiction to golf...lol

I truly respect your opinion EJ, but I really prefer to believe and follow everything Hogan said, which are all consistent with a few swing videos of his out there. There are many other videos that doesn't seem to jibe with what he said, but I want to follow his words and those few videos.

As to the how, I've been mumbling about it a few weeks/months back. I stumbled on it when I read a couple of posts in the old Hogan secret megathread. It's the PA#3 angle, the butt of grip trapped under the palm pad. It sets a limit to the uncccking at impact zone. Here are the posts (by Lake), enjoy!

"lake
04 February 2009 - 03:33 PM
 
If eightiron's clubshaft remained on the same plane in the impact zone as it was mid-downswing than he would whiff. The flatter the plane angle the larger angle between the clubshaft and left arm at impact is required. Ben Hogan had one of the biggest left arm/clubshaft angles the game has ever seen....BUT eightiron has him beat  There is almost no chance to hit a hook with that big of angle w/ neutral alignments. The bigger that angle the slower the rate the clubface closes when the hands roll back to vertical...and there is a more dynamic BANG into the ball as the clubhead travel is much greater w/ very little hand travel. Basically the clubhead rounds the corner very quickly w/ very little face rotation compared to the more upright plane angles...ie Mickelson. 

You can see this if you hold your left hand out in front of you w/ the thumb up....turn to the right and roll to the left (watch the travel of the thumb)....than point your thumb down and forward w/ your left arm extended than turn and roll...the thumb doesn't move left/right hardly at all but it sure does open and close quickly. This is the primary benefit of the lower plane angles as well as the pivots rotation being directed toward the golf ball. 

Eight has an awesome swing... the still pictures don't do it justice... he's not too good w/ the camera work IMOP 


lake
05 February 2009 - 12:26 AM

If eightiron was hitting a golf ball off his knees where would his shaft be pointing halfway in the downswing if he kept his same alignments with the clubshaft on his regular swing that he posted in the Hogan thread? It would be pointing 2-feet above the ball....now ya'll know something has to be done here because he is not on-plane to hit the golf ball....he is onplane to hit that range station divider in front of him. He has got to get down fast and if he's late it's going to be wipey at best....but the great player he is and his acute sense of the sweetspot knows it is better for him to drop his hands nearly vertical so that when he begins to roll his wrist the sweetspot will be sent down/out toward the ball....now rolling the wrist doesn't sound good.....but as he drops his hands down and begins to roll his hands the angle between his left arm and clubshaft is staying intact thus slowing the closing rate of the clubface (#3 angle)....this rolling keeps the sweetspot onplane as the dropping occurs because the shaft is rotating around the sweetspot. If he were to drop w/o rolling he would sense the sweetspot go off plane. Mr. Hogan shared a common move but not to the extent of eight's IMOP  The early elbow plane. 

Those that have the sweetspot, hands, and ball in line at this position halfway in the downswing tend to have a smaller #3 angle as they tend to drive their hands & sweetspot more toward the plane line which requires the left arm/clubshaft angle to be very small which increases the closing rate of the face and the dreaded slingy release....unless your Toms/Mahan where you go to almost fully uncocked at the last parallel before impact and cruise on through 
Attached image(s)"

[ej002]

First of all if you want to do everything Hogan said he told Schlee to forget about Supination - it happens naturally when you swing correctly.

Also, ask 8iron if he actively rolls his forearms into the ball. I wasn't lucky enought to catch his swing the two minutes that it was up, so I cannot comment on his swing.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

well thankfully lake is banned, so we don't have to read such uneducated nonsense anymore here, everyone knows hogan swung 68 degrees in front of him, lol.

 

why are you guys treating these as one swing ?

 

Here we go again ... Sam KNEW!

 

 

the one on the right isn't the real ben hogan, its the photographer screwing around with hogan to get 'that killer cover shot', ..yeah baby.

[grahler]

With the way the right hand pressure is applied under the bowed wrist you can use right hand as much as you can without face roll. Hogan even said so. Great for crisp iron shots.
Hogan said as much in five lessons the right hand hit is late late late and without it clubface is unstable through impact.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1315932786' post='3561429']
First of all if you want to do everything Hogan said he told Schlee to forget about Supination - it happens naturally when you swing correctly.

Also, ask 8iron if he actively rolls his forearms into the ball. I wasn't lucky enought to catch his swing the two minutes that it was up, so I cannot comment on his swing.
[/quote]

But didn't he told Schlee also to turn the left elbow to point it at left hip at impact zone? If you swing correctly, supination happens naturally...lol You cannot just pick out certain words/pictures/videos to suit your wants.. You've got to take ALL of them and RECONCILE them...

Why don't you ask 8-iron yourself? Don't need to ask him, his posts are all there scattered over wrx..he posted HH, double HH...even explained in detail almost all the reasons why you seeing AH despite action being HH/double HH....isn't that enough clue?

[MizunoJoe]

All these comments are very interesting and seem to have some merit based on photos presented. Here's what I was doing in my morning hitting session. I was concentrating on getting to the left side and then turning the left shoulder hard left, up, and back, while [b]trying[/b] to drive the entire right forearm down the target line using the right shoulder, and with the pitched right elbow [b]trying[/b] to stay ahead of the hands. No intentional rolling on the DS. I was getting powerful 5 yd cut fades. I felt like I was going in two different directions through impact - left and straight. What I especially liked was the fact that there was [b]no way[/b] the ball could go left, whereas with snap rolling I always get the occasional left field outlier.

I hope this post isn't interpreted as "throwing kerosene on a campfire". LOL. Just reporting what happened.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1315936189' post='3561593']
All these comments are very interesting and seem to have some merit based on photos presented. Here's what I was doing in my morning hitting session. I was concentrating on getting to the left side and then turning the left shoulder hard left, up, and back, while [b]trying[/b] to drive the entire right forearm down the target line using the right shoulder, and with the pitched right elbow [b]trying[/b] to stay ahead of the hands. No intentional rolling on the DS. I was getting powerful 5 yd cut fades. I felt like I was going in two different directions through impact - left and straight. What I especially liked was the fact that there was [b]no way[/b] the ball could go left, whereas with snap rolling I always get the occasional left field outlier.

I hope this post isn't interpreted as "throwing kerosene on a campfire". LOL. Just reporting what happened.
[/quote]

And trying upper right arm to be attached to side of chest the whole time? Did you lose yardage compared to snap rolling? How did you exactly snap roll by the way? With left elbow or left hand?

[ej002]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315935865' post='3561575']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1315932786' post='3561429']
First of all if you want to do everything Hogan said he told Schlee to forget about Supination - it happens naturally when you swing correctly.

Also, ask 8iron if he actively rolls his forearms into the ball. I wasn't lucky enought to catch his swing the two minutes that it was up, so I cannot comment on his swing.
[/quote]

But didn't he told Schlee also to turn the left elbow to point it at left hip at impact zone? If you swing correctly, supination happens naturally...lol You cannot just pick out certain words/pictures/videos to suit your wants.. You've got to take ALL of them and RECONCILE them...

Why don't you ask 8-iron yourself? Don't need to ask him, his posts are all there scattered over wrx..he posted HH, double HH...even explained in detail almost all the reasons why you seeing AH despite action being HH/double HH....isn't that enough clue?
[/quote]

I am not picking anything out. I am just writing what was allegedly said. There are a lot of contradictions in 5L. One being the hips starting the downswing, which you didn't necessarily agree with either (if I recall). Interestingly, when you read 5L and he talks supination, for the most part he was describing bowing the wrist. It is the same discussion where he says Damarett was a good wind player, b/c the bowed wrist. Also HH has nothing to do with actively rolling forearms. It can happen solely by pivot. That has been my point all along. I also don't think pointing elbows at hip sockets is the same as rolling forearms either. You also said you want to slow the rate of closure. That is something I can agree with you on. But what are you trying to accomplish with rolling the forearm? It makes no logical sense to me.

If you want to get into Lake's words, read the gyroswing thread when he had the 'ah-ha' moment. He harped on connection there and didn't say a word about rotating forearms except to say if you did add to the gyro it would flip on you. As far as 8 goes, he is a sharp guy, but I don't take him as gospel, and he wouldnt want me to.

IMO there was no "add" to the release with a forearm roll. I don't see a flip, a roll, or even an upper left arm twist in anything, but you do. All I see is connection. That is the problem with stills - you can interpret them anyway you want and we both see it differently. So let's just agree to disagree.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315937257' post='3561644']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1315936189' post='3561593']
All these comments are very interesting and seem to have some merit based on photos presented. Here's what I was doing in my morning hitting session. I was concentrating on getting to the left side and then turning the left shoulder hard left, up, and back, while [b]trying[/b] to drive the entire right forearm down the target line using the right shoulder, and with the pitched right elbow [b]trying[/b] to stay ahead of the hands. No intentional rolling on the DS. I was getting powerful 5 yd cut fades. I felt like I was going in two different directions through impact - left and straight. What I especially liked was the fact that there was [b]no way[/b] the ball could go left, whereas with snap rolling I always get the occasional left field outlier.

I hope this post isn't interpreted as "throwing kerosene on a campfire". LOL. Just reporting what happened.
[/quote]

And trying upper right arm to be attached to side of chest the whole time? Did you lose yardage compared to snap rolling? How did you exactly snap roll by the way? With left elbow or left hand?
[/quote]

Yes, as I slide left and pitch the right elbow under the right breast ahead of the right hip, the right upper arm is against the rib cage. I try to drive the whole right side through impact trying to keep the elbow ahead of the hands(but can't of course), and the right elbow and forearm finally leave the ribcage and continue forward just to the left of the target as I try to make them continue down the target line. I lost about 5 yds with the 9 iron, but they were solid shots. When I snap roll it's always with the left wrist, not the left elbow.

[moehogan]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1315923888' post='3561066']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1315887955' post='3560565']
To me the face closure was slowed by right hand (fingers to be exact) driving the whole shaft forward with added benefit of extending low point of arc. Not full roll IMO. Full snap roll is not consistent but it is powerful-thats not what Hogan did.
[/quote]


[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1315888326' post='3560578']
Maybe we are caught up in semantics here. By "full roll" I am assuming, perhaps incorrectly, that you are talking about a horizontal hinging action that produces a "toe up" clubhead shortly after impact.

Look closely at the first pic I posted of Mr. H's hands. At address, left is a little strong and the right is very weak. At impact, right has become much stronger and the left much weaker ... a VERY different orientation than address. They have SEPARATED from the top of the handle. If all Mr. H was doing was a full roll, why does the relationship of his hands to one another change so markedly?

BTW, my Hogan's ARE 6 degrees flat, but only 2 degrees open ... I'm 5'11" and they work just fine ... LOL..
[/quote]


I don't want to burst your guys' bubble, but the photos dont prove what you are saying about left rolling and right resisting. THe difference in those two pictures is shaft lien. Get into a Hogan grip with midbody (high) hands. Then push your hands forward to create shaft lien. HELLLO - there is the separation.



[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315903387' post='3560764']


I just incorporated, permanently, the full rolling a week ago (after believing for so long against it..yeah even if I've been posting FOR it...lol) and I gained 25yards in a wedge! I was so shocked I decided to adopt it permanently and work around it and just find a way to prevent the lefts. And I think it's not only got to do with increased clubhead speed, there's also the "clean strike" Mr. Hogan talked about. He really said it all.
[/quote]

Did you pick upt 25yds with the 3iron? Or are you having trouble getting it off the ground?
[/quote]

Sorry, ej, but I can push my hands target wise and keep the same relationship to each other. I totally disagree ... respectfully, of course.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1315943827' post='3561918']

Sorry, ej, but I can push my hands target wise and keep the same relationship to each other. I totally disagree ... respectfully, of course.
[/quote]

mh - where did you get that Hogan pic under your name? Just look at that left wrist! What iron is he hitting there?

[ej002]

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1315943827' post='3561918']
Sorry, ej, but I can push my hands target wise and keep the same relationship to each other. I totally disagree ... respectfully, of course.
[/quote]

I dont know what to tell you, I can't get the left to bow and keep the right elbow bent (while mimicking the Hogan grip) without getting the same separation. The reason is clear to me. At set up his right arm is nearly straight, if not completely straight. At impact his right arm is clearly bent. That IMO is the reason for the difference of your pics. If I take my normal grip and set up and move forward I dont get the separation. Do it Hogan's way, there is lots. No hard feelings taken... of course.

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1315944986' post='3561972']
mh - where did you get that Hogan pic under your name? Just look at that left wrist! What iron is he hitting there?
[/quote]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNgMNK3CtWU&feature=related
1:42 mark


More importantly look at the left forearm... cough noroll cough But in all honesty, that particular shot, he took an extremely heavy divot (for him)


Okay here is the thing. The problem I have personally with this "roll" business. Look at Moehogan's avatar. Those wrist bones are perpendicular to the plane. I just find it hard to believe that he snap rolled his wrist perfectly 90* and the roll never continued. IMO snap means hard force. There is just too much finess involved in what you guys are saying for me to believe it. I am not knocking you guys, you are smart chaps, I just disagree. But he is the best, so who knows.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1315946069' post='3562011']

More importantly look at the left forearm... cough noroll cough

But in all honesty, that particular shot, he took an extremely heavy divot (for him)


Okay here is the thing. The problem I have personally with this "roll" business. Look at Moehogan's avatar. Those wrist bones are perpendicular to the plane. [b]I just find it hard to believe that he snap rolled his wrist perfectly 90* and the roll never continued.[/b] IMO snap means hard force. There is just too much finess involved in what you guys are saying for me to believe it. I am not knocking you guys, you are smart chaps, I just disagree. But he is the best, so who knows.
[/quote]

I think it's possible to to snap it 90 degs as a [b]consequence[/b] of driving the pitch right elbow and forearm targetward, while pulling the left shoulder left and back, [b]without[/b] consciously rolling the left wrist or using the left elbow. Isn't that how you think he gets it square on the DS, after rolling open and cupping on the BS?

[moehogan]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1315944986' post='3561972']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1315943827' post='3561918']
Sorry, ej, but I can push my hands target wise and keep the same relationship to each other. I totally disagree ... respectfully, of course.
[/quote]

mh - where did you get that Hogan pic under your name? Just look at that left wrist! What iron is he hitting there?
[/quote]
Screen shot from this YouTube vid ... [url="http://youtu.be/CuQfQoQBvMM"]Ben Hogan[/url]

[ej002]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1315948020' post='3562071']

I think it's possible to to snap it 90 degs as a [b]consequence[/b] of driving the pitch right elbow and forearm targetward, while pulling the left shoulder left and back, [b]without[/b] consciously rolling the left wrist or using the left elbow. Isn't that how you think he gets it square on the DS, after rolling open and cupping on the BS?
[/quote]

Yes.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1315944986' post='3561972']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1315943827' post='3561918']

Sorry, ej, but I can push my hands target wise and keep the same relationship to each other. I totally disagree ... respectfully, of course.
[/quote]

mh - where did you get that Hogan pic under your name? Just look at that left wrist! What iron is he hitting there?
[/quote]

The reason his left wrist looks like that on this particular shot is because he stuck it in the ground/took a huge divot.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1315951549' post='3562203']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1315944986' post='3561972']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1315943827' post='3561918']

Sorry, ej, but I can push my hands target wise and keep the same relationship to each other. I totally disagree ... respectfully, of course.
[/quote]

mh - where did you get that Hogan pic under your name? Just look at that left wrist! What iron is he hitting there?
[/quote]

The reason his left wrist looks like that on this particular shot is because he stuck it in the ground/took a huge divot.
[/quote]

You're right, nothing lags the clubhead like sod! LOL

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1315949998' post='3562144']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1315948020' post='3562071']

I think it's possible to to snap it 90 degs as a [b]consequence[/b] of driving the pitch right elbow and forearm targetward, while pulling the left shoulder left and back, [b]without[/b] consciously rolling the left wrist or using the left elbow. Isn't that how you think he gets it square on the DS, after rolling open and cupping on the BS?
[/quote]

Yes.
[/quote]

I agree too. But MJ, isn't the 5 yard gain of the rolling worth looking into? If I hit it left, I can always totally eliminate it by remembering to turn hips to START ds.

EJ, I strongly believe in starting ds with hips. Very important because that will ensure no lefts. I just adjust it to hit draw, straight or fade. If you fire hips hard at transition, I'm sure of no lefts even when I roll hard.

But let's see about rolling. As I said just permanently using it since just last week. Let's see. The additional yardage and flight I think deserves my experimentation time.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315960155' post='3562485']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1315949998' post='3562144']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1315948020' post='3562071']

I think it's possible to to snap it 90 degs as a [b]consequence[/b] of driving the pitch right elbow and forearm targetward, while pulling the left shoulder left and back, [b]without[/b] consciously rolling the left wrist or using the left elbow. Isn't that how you think he gets it square on the DS, after rolling open and cupping on the BS?
[/quote]

Yes.
[/quote]

I agree too. But MJ, isn't the 5 yard gain of the rolling worth looking into? If I hit it left, I can always totally eliminate it by remembering to turn hips to START ds.

EJ, I strongly believe in starting ds with hips. Very important because that will ensure no lefts. I just adjust it to hit draw, straight or fade. If you fire hips hard at transition, I'm sure of no lefts even when I roll hard.

But let's see about rolling. As I said just permanently using it since just last week. Let's see. The additional yardage and flight I think deserves my experimentation time.
[/quote]

I think it's essential to either move left during the BS or slide left before turning the hips. In spite of that, I can over roll and hit it over the left field fence. But, by all means, play around with it.