Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[grahler]

Full rolling is kinda the opposite of Hogan IMO. Hogan knew clubface control was important to consistency. Sure rolling it through is powerful but I don't think Hogan enjoyed hitting 10-15 yards long left.
To me he was about repeatability.
Rolling to me is like a stronger left hand grip-feels good for a while but over time you start aiming further right pretty soon you push a few now you have a two way miss-no bueno. Just say no to full roll LOL.

[svsvincenzo]

Actually in my case it doesn't go left. I only miss left when I don't transition with hips. Honestly. My misses are actually more on distance and rights due to not nailing the sweet spot. I think there's a timing involved. I dreamt (..lol...) it may be the timing of release of PA#2 throwaway, I suspect via the short left thumb. I may be "loosening" the short left thumb which removes stability of clubface at impact. So no matter how I turn the corner club wont release correctly. Don't know, just thinking aloud, will experiment. Can't wait to hit the range again...lol

[dap]

I don't think Hogan full rolled either.He never talked about rolling the forearms over.He talked about supination.Supination will roll the left forearm a little.Rolling the forearm may or may not achieve supination and you are prone to snap hook the occasional shot under pressure.

Hogan had a flying left elbow follow through(I won't say chicken wing because that is different) and that is proof he did not full roll his left arm.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1315972600' post='3563016']
I don't think Hogan full rolled either.He never talked about rolling the forearms over.He talked about supination.Supination will roll the left forearm a little.Rolling the forearm may or may not achieve supination and you are prone to snap hook the occasional shot under pressure.

Hogan had a flying left elbow follow through(I won't say chicken wing because that is different) and that is proof he did not full roll his left arm.
[/quote]

The rolling is actually quite easy to see from elbows. Closer to each other they are, more roll /crossing) has been done. So it's easy to also see that Hogan never rolled and forearms never went close to each other what happens if You cross.

[dap]

Pictures show a lot more than words can say.

The first pic is a player who is known to full roll and you can see the left elbow pointed down and the club in a steep position.

The second pic is of course Hogan with his left elbow flying and the club in a more shallow exit.

[attachment=858394:A look at my TrackMan influenced Swing Changes - Brian Manzella Golf Forum.flv_snapshot_00.02_2011.09.14_15.03.27.jpg]

[attachment=858395:Ben Hogan Swing 1953.flv_snapshot_00.51_2011.09.14_15.04.14.jpg]

[svsvincenzo]

Look at his HANDS here in very first swing with camera in perfect angle to see the full rolling. I'm not saying it's the hands that ultimately causes the roll. But it's quite clear HANDS are full rolling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipRFcrQ37a4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I rest my case. Nothing more. Case closed. Period. Stop.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1315984245' post='3563185']
Pictures show a lot more than words can say.

The first pic is a player who is known to full roll and you can see the left elbow pointed down and the club in a steep position.

The second pic is of course Hogan with his left elbow flying and the club in a more shallow exit.

[attachment=858394:A look at my TrackMan influenced Swing Changes - Brian Manzella Golf Forum.flv_snapshot_00.02_2011.09.14_15.03.27.jpg]

[attachment=858395:Ben Hogan Swing 1953.flv_snapshot_00.51_2011.09.14_15.04.14.jpg]
[/quote]

What's that player's height, how far did he setup from ball, what's his grip, what did he do during bs, during transition, ds, impact, how fast did he swing, how advanced/behind did he fire the hips vis-a-vis shoulders/arms, did he smirk or grin at impact? You could post a gif (selected picture sequences) of your swing and it would look soooooo smoooooth and fool everyone...

[dap]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315986052' post='3563198']
Look at his HANDS here in very first swing with camera in perfect angle to see the full rolling. I'm not saying it's the hands that ultimately causes the roll. But it's quite clear HANDS are full rolling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipRFcrQ37a4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I rest my case. Nothing more. Case closed. Period. Stop.
[/quote]
The hands are too blurry in that video to come to any conclusions but I respect your opinion.

[dap]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315987678' post='3563209']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1315984245' post='3563185']
Pictures show a lot more than words can say.

The first pic is a player who is known to full roll and you can see the left elbow pointed down and the club in a steep position.

The second pic is of course Hogan with his left elbow flying and the club in a more shallow exit.

[attachment=858394:A look at my TrackMan influenced Swing Changes - Brian Manzella Golf Forum.flv_snapshot_00.02_2011.09.14_15.03.27.jpg]

[attachment=858395:Ben Hogan Swing 1953.flv_snapshot_00.51_2011.09.14_15.04.14.jpg]
[/quote]

What's that player's height, how far did he setup from ball, what's his grip, what did he do during bs, during transition, ds, impact, how fast did he swing, how advanced/behind did he fire the hips vis-a-vis shoulders/arms, did he smirk or grin at impact? You could post a gif (selected picture sequences) of your swing and it would look soooooo smoooooth and fool everyone...
[/quote]
I really don't follow what you are trying to say here.There is a huge difference in the above comparisons to warrant nitpickings about setup and selected picture sequences.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315986052' post='3563198']
Look at his HANDS here in very first swing with camera in perfect angle to see the full rolling. I'm not saying it's the hands that ultimately causes the roll. But it's quite clear HANDS are full rolling.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipRFcrQ37a4&feature=youtube_gdata_player

I rest my case. Nothing more. Case closed. Period. Stop.
[/quote]

They are rolling at every shot, but much after impact. That led Cochran & Stobbs to big mistake at 60's when they didn't have hi-speed cameras. The mass of the club makes hands roll when they can't do anything else. Even when players like Hogan resist that crossing at impact.

[ej002]

I think Teeace makes a very important point. I don't think anyone is saying that the arms don't ever roll and swivel, they do late. YOu have to take into effect the club he using, the shot he is making, if he is going all out etc. Longer stuff with a full blown swing is going to roll, you can fight all you want, but generally it is rolling no matter what. It is the delay of the roll and the "flying left elbow" (I like that term) that makes me think he didn't actively roll. 8iron was arguing here a while back about whether it was full roll or angled hinge. Either way, it is in between. I see it as two possibilities:

1. either he full rolled but his pivot was so continuing so fast post impact, that face slowly closed (i.e. it could not catch up), but then eventually caught up causing the arms to roll (taking into effect the weak grip - this makes it look like AH)
2. or he angle hinged and tried to hold it off, but could not fight the force of the closing face when the toe finally caught up
The bottom line is eventually it has to roll for the reason Tee said.

Regardless of the above, it takes him a LONG time to roll as Snead pointed out. That is one of the reasons I dont think it was an active manipulation.


Edit: I am not a swing historian by any stretch. Did anyone else (of quality) angle hinge during or before Hogan's era? Is it really possible something this silly could be his "secret" as Snead suggests?

[moehogan]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1316023807' post='3564069']
I think Teeace makes a very important point. I don't think anyone is saying that the arms don't ever roll and swivel, they do late. YOu have to take into effect the club he using, the shot he is making, if he is going all out etc. Longer stuff with a full blown swing is going to roll, you can fight all you want, but generally it is rolling no matter what. It is the delay of the roll and the "flying left elbow" (I like that term) that makes me think he didn't actively roll. 8iron was arguing here a while back about whether it was full roll or angled hinge. Either way, it is in between. I see it as two possibilities:

1. either he full rolled but his pivot was so continuing so fast post impact, that face slowly closed (i.e. it could not catch up), but then eventually caught up causing the arms to roll (taking into effect the weak grip - this makes it look like AH)
2. or he angle hinged and tried to hold it off, but could not fight the force of the closing face when the toe finally caught up
The bottom line is eventually it has to roll for the reason Tee said.

Regardless of the above, it takes him a LONG time to roll as Snead pointed out. That is one of the reasons I dont think it was an active manipulation.


Edit: I am not a swing historian by any stretch. Did anyone else (of quality) angle hinge during or before Hogan's era? Is it really possible something this silly could be his "secret" as Snead suggests?
[/quote]
Why not?

Mr. H said he got an idea one night and tried it at the range the next day ... he said it worked like a charm and continued to work. Doesn't sound like some major swing overhaul to me, i.e. pivot, sequencing, etc ... he had all those components. That's why I've always looked for something simple that would have a direct effect on clubface closure ... grip pressures and hand movements. How do you put a governor or limit on the fastest pair of hands on the planet?

Absolutely no way to prove it ... unless someone can channel Mr. H from the grave. But I think Sam knew!

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1315984245' post='3563185']
[b]Pictures show a lot more than words can say.[/b]

The first pic is a player who is known to full roll and you can see the left elbow pointed down and the club in a steep position.

The second pic is of course Hogan with his left elbow flying and the club in a more shallow exit.

[attachment=858394:A look at my TrackMan influenced Swing Changes - Brian Manzella Golf Forum.flv_snapshot_00.02_2011.09.14_15.03.27.jpg]

[attachment=858395:Ben Hogan Swing 1953.flv_snapshot_00.51_2011.09.14_15.04.14.jpg]
[/quote]

And here's a full roll, starting at :17, with the shaft exiting non-vertically, the forearms wide apart, and a Hoganesque chickenwing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0YnqtgvoAU&NR=1

[dap]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1316039430' post='3564663']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1315984245' post='3563185']
[b]Pictures show a lot more than words can say.[/b]

The first pic is a player who is known to full roll and you can see the left elbow pointed down and the club in a steep position.

The second pic is of course Hogan with his left elbow flying and the club in a more shallow exit.

[attachment=858394:A look at my TrackMan influenced Swing Changes - Brian Manzella Golf Forum.flv_snapshot_00.02_2011.09.14_15.03.27.jpg]

[attachment=858395:Ben Hogan Swing 1953.flv_snapshot_00.51_2011.09.14_15.04.14.jpg]
[/quote]

And here's a full roll, starting at :17, with the shaft exiting non-vertically, the forearms wide apart, and a Hoganesque chickenwing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0YnqtgvoAU&NR=1
[/quote]
Tiger does full roll it but not as much as the player I used as the example.He is an extreme example.Not every player rolls it the same amount.At what point does an angle hinge become a vertical hinge?

I don't really see Tiger with his left elbow flying.It looks pointed down a lot more than Hogan.The left arm being bent may give that impression.We are definitely seeing different things.You don't see as much of Tiger's upper left arm as Hogan which means it is pointed more forward with the elbow down.Tiger is definitely not "chicken winging" anywhere near as much as Hogan.

[attachment=858859:Ben Hogan Swing 1953.flv_snapshot_00.51_2011.09.14_15.04.14.jpg]

[attachment=858860:Tiger woods long iron slow motion video 1.mp4_snapshot_00.51_2011.09.15_07.58.28.jpg]

[dap]

Here is another angle to see Tiger full rolling but not Hogan.At the same point in the swing Tiger has rolled his right hand over his left much more than Hogan.He has a much earlier cross over.


[attachment=858876:Tiger Woods Swing Vision.mp4_snapshot_00.43_2011.09.15_09.03.37.jpg]

[attachment=858877:Ben Hogan - Tiger Woods Swing Portrait.mp4_snapshot_00.45_2011.09.15_09.06.37.jpg]

[moehogan]

[grahler]

Above pic- Hogan driving through Tiger throwing it away-two totally opposite protocols involved in those two pics.

Hogan's right hand cannot overpower the left but it is free to attack through the ball.

[svsvincenzo]

Tiger full rolling more/earlier because he has flat left wrist at top, don't probate as much, more bent over to the ball (because he's taller) which made him extend hips little later so his arms hence hands fire little earlier, and had more right hand roll because of interlock grip and right hand not weaker than his left.

Why not compare to Hogan another player who has all the "roll delay" mechanisms/moves and then let's compare? Better if you can ask them if they are intentionally "holding off" the roll in any way because Hogan said/intentions is to supinate and roll as hard as he can into and through the ball.

So, to those finding the lefts with full rolling intent, are you doing ALL of the following checklist of "roll delay" mechanisms?

1. Weak left hand grip;
2. Weaker right hand grip;
3. Butt of grip trapped under palm pad;
4. Base of right thumb and index fingers pressed together as Siamese twins;
5. 5 degrees open clubface;
6. Heavy clubs;
7. Zero offset;
8. Thick non-taper grips;
9. Left wrist cup at top;
10. Pitch elbow;
11. Counter-fall or early return left;
12. Rotary-lateral fast turn of hips starting the ds;
13. Lay-offed clubhead;
14. Full extension; and
15. Super fast pivot.

Does even one of us here performs ALL of these? Heck any tour player? I'm willing to bet on that...call?...anyone? Lol

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316046563' post='3564878']
[

I don't really see Tiger with his left elbow flying.It looks pointed down a lot more than Hogan.The left arm being bent may give that impression.We are definitely seeing different things.You don't see as much of Tiger's upper left arm as Hogan which means it is pointed more forward with the elbow down.Tiger is definitely not "chicken winging" anywhere near as much as Hogan.

[attachment=858859:Ben Hogan Swing 1953.flv_snapshot_00.51_2011.09.14_15.04.14.jpg]

[attachment=858860:Tiger woods long iron slow motion video 1.mp4_snapshot_00.51_2011.09.15_07.58.28.jpg]
[/quote]

Tigers right forearm has moved upside of the left when Hogans is still under the left. Thats the huge difference there

[grahler]

Tee Ace-off topic but have you ever seen a player whose shaft had not released yet at impact? Or is it true that the shaft has deflected forward for ALL players at impact? Do you know?

[dap]

Don't see the roll of the right hand over the left.

[attachment=859025:001_Hogan.jpg]

[grahler]

Left arm connection plus strong pivot-if you roll the right you're cooked. Hogan had strong left arm connection-if he rolls over he's done-thats why he didn't roll it through the ball-finish swivel? Sure.
Rolling lets the face close-Hogan didn't want that thats what drove him mad early in his career.
I am not saying rolling is not a valid technique only that it was the opposite of Ben Hogans stock shot.
Beautiful photo above.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316066364' post='3565539']
Tee Ace-off topic but have you ever seen a player whose shaft had not released yet at impact? Or is it true that the shaft has deflected forward for ALL players at impact? Do you know?
[/quote]

I have seen lot of photos that has been taken with so bad cameras (for example Golf Digest swing photos) that they give that kind of illusion that ch has passed the shaft line. I have also seen lot of photos and videos, where camera angle makes downward bend seem like forward bend.

Then I have measured good players who's left wrist is 5 inches ahead of the club head at impact, but can't say for sure how much and which way shaft has bent. Anyway not much either sides.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316066404' post='3565542']
Don't see the roll of the right hand over the left.

[attachment=859025:001_Hogan.jpg]
[/quote]

Don't SEE it either. But he's trying to roll the hell out of it, but ALL those "roll delay" mechanisms delayed it. As Teeace said, that clubhead wanna roll..why not take advantage of it? It substantially adds power, don't you think?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316070083' post='3565583']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316066404' post='3565542']
Don't see the roll of the right hand over the left.

[attachment=859025:001_Hogan.jpg]
[/quote]

Don't SEE it either. But he's trying to roll the hell out of it, but ALL those "roll delay" mechanisms delayed it. As Teeace said, that clubhead wanna roll..why not take advantage of it? It substantially adds power, don't you think?
[/quote]

It doesn't add anything. Or yes it does... it adds misses to the right and left, but nothing else. Hogan resisted (rolled face open) as much as possible at impact. So just opposite.

The club speed is relevant, not the ch speed. Whole club and that depends of hand speed.

[downtoscratch]

Arms roll hands do not................. with one arm or the other straightened and the other arm yielding at the elbow the outcome has the straight arm rotating from the shoulder socket all the way to
the hand. There's your 'roll'. Hogan didn't roll hands and as such the severe closure that caused his hook was neutralized. With that factor managed he could then exploit '3 right sides' without
fear. Three right hands, though his own words, was a misnomer, IMO.

[grahler]

"AT IMPACT THE BACK OF THE LEFT HAND FACES THE TARGET. THE WRIST BONE IS DEFINITELY RAISED. IT POINTS TO THE TARGET AND, AT THE MOMENT THE BALL IS CONTACTED, IT IS OUT IN FRONT, NEARER TO THE TARGET THAN ANY PART OF THE HAND. When the left wrist is in this position, the left hand will not check or interrupt the speed with which your clubhead is traveling. [b]There's no danger either that the right hand will overpower the left and twist the club over. It can't.[/b] As far as applying power goes I wish that I had three right hands."

No roll.

Misnomer?

Reads pretty clearly to me.

Hogan was pretty smart for a guy without 3d and high speed video and 4d and computer simulation etc etc etc. He didn't need high level analysis software to hit golf balls.

Experience has more value than some folks think.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='downtoscratch' timestamp='1316075161' post='3565621']
Arms roll hands do not................. with one arm or the other straightened and the other arm yielding at the elbow the outcome has the straight arm rotating from the shoulder socket all the way to
the hand. There's your 'roll'. Hogan didn't roll hands and as such the severe closure that caused his hook was neutralized. With that factor managed he could then exploit '3 right sides' without
fear. Three right hands, though his own words, was a misnomer, IMO.
[/quote]

agreed, DTS. It's important to keep in mind that Hogan had his right arm still bent almost 90 deg. at impact unlike most players on tour today. The late release of the right arm combined with very high shoulder speed well past impact are the main factors in the late crossover. So IMO, Hogan didn't "hold off" intentionally, it was a result of these other things.

[drewspin]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1316095289' post='3565904']
[quote name='downtoscratch' timestamp='1316075161' post='3565621']
Arms roll hands do not................. with one arm or the other straightened and the other arm yielding at the elbow the outcome has the straight arm rotating from the shoulder socket all the way to
the hand. There's your 'roll'. Hogan didn't roll hands and as such the severe closure that caused his hook was neutralized. With that factor managed he could then exploit '3 right sides' without
fear. Three right hands, though his own words, was a misnomer, IMO.
[/quote]

agreed, DTS. It's important to keep in mind that Hogan had his right arm still bent almost 90 deg. at impact unlike most players on tour today. The late release of the right arm combined with very high shoulder speed well past impact are the main factors in the late crossover. So IMO, Hogan didn't "hold off" intentionally, it was a result of these other things.
[/quote]

Well said.

[ej002]

I should say that right arm was not bent like that impact in teh pre-secret swings.

But does that elbow cause an angled hinge, or just a delayed full roll.

Does it matter?