Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[downtoscratch]

In a recent article by [url="http://www.aroundhawaii.com/speed_training.html"]Kelvin Miyahira PGA Tour Grip Styles Part 2 I extracted this portion........[/url]
[size="4"][font="Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet,Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"][size="3"]I've always enjoyed Kelvin's postings even when I didn't necessarily agree with him.
This section of the article meant the most to me personally. The last sentence in the piece
I selected says it all...... "But this is a challenge for those with weak/neutral grips and
while it is possible for some of the tour pros to deliver the club in a good position with a
weak/neutral grip, they are in the minority." How profound! He's describing Hogan here and
he's telling us not many can do what Hogan did so well. The reason I pick this piece out of
all the article is specific to his mention of Zack's internally rotated right arm and it's
effect on his elbow position at address.......... that's Hogan..... that's Mitchell to me.

There's your roll........ sorry if you can't see it.

[/size][/size][/font][size="4"][font="Trebuchet MS, Trebuchet,Verdana, Arial, Helvetica"][size="3"]
[url="http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-09-pga-tour-grip-styles-part-2-continued.html"]http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-09-pga-tour-grip-styles-part-2-continued.html[/url]
[/size][/size][/font]

[downtoscratch]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316094536' post='3565883']
"AT IMPACT THE BACK OF THE LEFT HAND FACES THE TARGET. THE WRIST BONE IS DEFINITELY RAISED. IT POINTS TO THE TARGET AND, AT THE MOMENT THE BALL IS CONTACTED, IT IS OUT IN FRONT, NEARER TO THE TARGET THAN ANY PART OF THE HAND. When the left wrist is in this position, the left hand will not check or interrupt the speed with which your clubhead is traveling. [b]There's no danger either that the right hand will overpower the left and twist the club over. It can't.[/b] As far as applying power goes I wish that I had three right hands."

No roll. Misnomer? Reads pretty clearly to me. Hogan was pretty smart for a guy without 3d and high speed video and 4d and computer simulation etc etc etc. He didn't need high level analysis software to hit golf balls.
Experience has more value than some folks think.
[/quote]

Grahler, No roll of the hands or by the hands. Pretty clear to me as well. And yes it isn't all that great a stretch to conceive of Mr.Hogan using the word 'hand' to describe a feel
in that hand while the cause of that feel is in fact the greater forces expressed by his entire right side. Not to me anyway. Opinions will vary... go with your own as I do mine. dts

[grahler]

I like the thought of the whole right side driving that hand. My post was basically in response to the above posts about Hogan implying his intent was to roll through impact. There is no evidence of that and Hogan said his intent was to avoid right hand rolling over.

[moehogan]

From Hillcrest CC in LA in 1946. My guess is that this is pre-secret as it was most likely on the early season, West Coast swing. Secret did not come until after Mr. H returned home sometime after the Masters.

 

Check out that right hand ... over early instead of under!

 

[downtoscratch]

From Hillcrest CC in LA in 1946. My guess is that this is pre-secret as it was most likely on the early season, West Coast swing. Secret did not come until after Mr. H returned home sometime after the Masters.

 

Check out that right hand ... over early instead of under!

 

 

Looks like Vijay and Freddie................. roll on.

[TeeAce]

I think there is lot of Hoganism in this picture

 

 

and lot of roll on hands too.... but direction is different than usually thought.

[ej002]

From Hillcrest CC in LA in 1946. My guess is that this is pre-secret as it was most likely on the early season, West Coast swing. Secret did not come until after Mr. H returned home sometime after the Masters.

 

Check out that right hand ... over early instead of under!

 

 

 

That is an excellent picture. Look at the footwork, the right heel is almost on the ground, which is probably a result of his left hip not being totally cleared (like post-secret). Right arm straightens, right hand rolls. yuk. Nice find.

 

Tee- who is that in that picture?

[grahler]

Is that quiros

[drewspin]

Be aware, there is IMPACT and the position at impact, and then there's is the position where IMPACT is FELT and registered by the BRAIN. There is a difference between FEEL and REAL just based on timing.

This, in part, I think provides a clue to reconciling our interpretations of impact and immediate post impact photographs, with Hogan's descriptions of impact from his perspective of the feel of impact.

Carry on.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316066404' post='3565542']
Don't see the roll of the right hand over the left.

[attachment=859025:001_Hogan.jpg]

What do you think he would look like at that point, were he hitting a knock-down draw to a pin tucked left behind bunkers? And don't say he would fade it in, cause Hogan worked it both ways.

[/quote]

[TeeAce]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316107435' post='3566352']
Is that quiros
[/quote]
Yes, Alvaro Quiros.

The face is much more open to it's path than it would be even on free ride. Afraid to even think what will happen if he rolls other way

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316109652' post='3566441']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316107435' post='3566352']
Is that quiros
[/quote]
Yes, Alvaro Quiros.

The face is much more open to it's path than it would be even on free ride. Afraid to even think what will happen if he rolls other way
[/quote]

He is a full roller. You'd have to ask him whats his intentions are. He can be intentionally full rolling for distance but his setup and mechanics delays or retards the roll/face closure. He cant have that distance without his intent and muscle functions towards full roll.

Also, what type of shot did he shot in there? Initial direction? Where did it land, trajectory? How far, max power, mid, or minimum effort? Wind, is there any, direction, mph? What round, what hole, is he in contention, leading, aggressive strategy, trying to be safe, adrenalin coming in?

Darn, there are too many variables that SHOULD be considered...you could be wrong, I could be wrong, we all could be wrong...heck even Alvaro if you ask him and he honestly answers could be wrong with his own swing...there are many involuntary muscle/tendon firing that even MDs don't know about...lol. Only Hogan knows... Maybe we should pool resources (instead of golf books, gadgets, seminars, schools, teachers...) and find a real authentic sorcerer to talk and get the info directly from Mr. Hogan?...lol

[grahler]

There is an objective reality in terms of the motions involved in Hogan's swing. Seems like most people don't think he rolled 101 but you're right who knows? Sam Snead was there and the thread is based on his opinion.
I am going to go out on a limb and agree with him since he has firsthand knowledge in this case.
Off topic Yani tseng has a pretty cool swing and she's winning everything sh drops it down there kinda Hoganesque.

[dap]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1316109098' post='3566422']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316066404' post='3565542']
Don't see the roll of the right hand over the left.

[attachment=859025:001_Hogan.jpg]

What do you think he would look like at that point, were he hitting a knock-down draw to a pin tucked left behind bunkers? And don't say he would fade it in, cause Hogan worked it both ways.

[/quote]
[/quote]
Well,do you have a picture to show us?I can't find any videos or pics showing Hogan full rolling like Tiger with an early crossover.

[dap]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316142206' post='3567484']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316109652' post='3566441']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316107435' post='3566352']
Is that quiros
[/quote]
Yes, Alvaro Quiros.

The face is much more open to it's path than it would be even on free ride. Afraid to even think what will happen if he rolls other way
[/quote]

He is a full roller. You'd have to ask him whats his intentions are. He can be intentionally full rolling for distance but his setup and mechanics delays or retards the roll/face closure. He cant have that distance without his intent and muscle functions towards full roll.

Also, what type of shot did he shot in there? Initial direction? Where did it land, trajectory? How far, max power, mid, or minimum effort? Wind, is there any, direction, mph? What round, what hole, is he in contention, leading, aggressive strategy, trying to be safe, adrenalin coming in?

Darn, there are too many variables that SHOULD be considered...you could be wrong, I could be wrong, we all could be wrong...heck even Alvaro if you ask him and he honestly answers could be wrong with his own swing...there are many involuntary muscle/tendon firing that even MDs don't know about...lol. Only Hogan knows... Maybe we should pool resources (instead of golf books, gadgets, seminars, schools, teachers...) and find a real authentic sorcerer to talk and get the info directly from Mr. Hogan?...lol
[/quote]
101,you seem to be into Hogan big time.Perhaps you could arrange a seance and try to talk to the man directly.LOL

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316146389' post='3567611']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316142206' post='3567484']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316109652' post='3566441']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316107435' post='3566352']
Is that quiros
[/quote]
Yes, Alvaro Quiros.

The face is much more open to it's path than it would be even on free ride. Afraid to even think what will happen if he rolls other way
[/quote]

He is a full roller. You'd have to ask him whats his intentions are. He can be intentionally full rolling for distance but his setup and mechanics delays or retards the roll/face closure. He cant have that distance without his intent and muscle functions towards full roll.

Also, what type of shot did he shot in there? Initial direction? Where did it land, trajectory? How far, max power, mid, or minimum effort? Wind, is there any, direction, mph? What round, what hole, is he in contention, leading, aggressive strategy, trying to be safe, adrenalin coming in?

Darn, there are too many variables that SHOULD be considered...you could be wrong, I could be wrong, we all could be wrong...heck even Alvaro if you ask him and he honestly answers could be wrong with his own swing...there are many involuntary muscle/tendon firing that even MDs don't know about...lol. Only Hogan knows... Maybe we should pool resources (instead of golf books, gadgets, seminars, schools, teachers...) and find a real authentic sorcerer to talk and get the info directly from Mr. Hogan?...lol
[/quote]
101,you seem to be into Hogan big time.Perhaps you could arrange a seance and try to talk to the man directly.LOL
[/quote]

Errr.. you know one? Can you PM me his/her contact details please?...lol

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316142206' post='3567484']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316109652' post='3566441']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316107435' post='3566352']
Is that quiros
[/quote]
Yes, Alvaro Quiros.

The face is much more open to it's path than it would be even on free ride. Afraid to even think what will happen if he rolls other way
[/quote]

He is a full roller. You'd have to ask him whats his intentions are. He can be intentionally full rolling for distance but his setup and mechanics delays or retards the roll/face closure. He cant have that distance without his intent and muscle functions towards full roll.

Also, what type of shot did he shot in there? Initial direction? Where did it land, trajectory? How far, max power, mid, or minimum effort? Wind, is there any, direction, mph? What round, what hole, is he in contention, leading, aggressive strategy, trying to be safe, adrenalin coming in?

Darn, there are too many variables that SHOULD be considered...you could be wrong, I could be wrong, we all could be wrong...heck even Alvaro if you ask him and he honestly answers could be wrong with his own swing...there are many involuntary muscle/tendon firing that even MDs don't know about...lol. Only Hogan knows... Maybe we should pool resources (instead of golf books, gadgets, seminars, schools, teachers...) and find a real authentic sorcerer to talk and get the info directly from Mr. Hogan?...lol
[/quote]

First of all rolling doesn't add any speed or add any yards. That's just simple geometric and has been one of the biggest myths in golf for years. Sweetspot is just too close to the shaft that it could.

What seems to be no too well understood is that there is something that player is doing and something that happens opposite way even when player tries to resist it. And there we go back to slow cameras again which has been disaster for golf teaching. Nowadays the Youtube is full of hi-speed videos where we can see what really happens and lot ow close up videos from club head when it's rotating open at impact, stays open for few inches after that and then rolls quickly, because it can't do anything else at that point when arms fully extends and it's impossible to resist that closing by laws of geometry and physics.

Those moves are so easy to see by watching few parts of the body relative to each other... "If I tell You where to look"

Quiros is not rolling.

[dap]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316147407' post='3567634']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316146389' post='3567611']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316142206' post='3567484']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316109652' post='3566441']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316107435' post='3566352']
Is that quiros
[/quote]
Yes, Alvaro Quiros.

The face is much more open to it's path than it would be even on free ride. Afraid to even think what will happen if he rolls other way
[/quote]

He is a full roller. You'd have to ask him whats his intentions are. He can be intentionally full rolling for distance but his setup and mechanics delays or retards the roll/face closure. He cant have that distance without his intent and muscle functions towards full roll.

Also, what type of shot did he shot in there? Initial direction? Where did it land, trajectory? How far, max power, mid, or minimum effort? Wind, is there any, direction, mph? What round, what hole, is he in contention, leading, aggressive strategy, trying to be safe, adrenalin coming in?

Darn, there are too many variables that SHOULD be considered...you could be wrong, I could be wrong, we all could be wrong...heck even Alvaro if you ask him and he honestly answers could be wrong with his own swing...there are many involuntary muscle/tendon firing that even MDs don't know about...lol. Only Hogan knows... Maybe we should pool resources (instead of golf books, gadgets, seminars, schools, teachers...) and find a real authentic sorcerer to talk and get the info directly from Mr. Hogan?...lol
[/quote]
101,you seem to be into Hogan big time.Perhaps you could arrange a seance and try to talk to the man directly.LOL
[/quote]

Errr.. you know one? Can you PM me his/her contact details please?...lol
[/quote]
No but you can get one of these.It cost about 94 pounds but that is a bargain to talk with Hogan.lol

http://www.sorcerers-apprentice.co.uk/seancekit.htm

[dap]

I believe Keern has one and Hogan told him about the 22 degree angle.The seance kit definitely works.lol

[svsvincenzo]

Thanks a lot! I've been looking for that a long time! Lol

[dap]

Perhaps we could organise a group buy.It would be cheaper and we could also find out if Hogan tells a different secret to different people.lol

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316149173' post='3567664']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316142206' post='3567484']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316109652' post='3566441']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316107435' post='3566352']
Is that quiros
[/quote]
Yes, Alvaro Quiros.

The face is much more open to it's path than it would be even on free ride. Afraid to even think what will happen if he rolls other way
[/quote]

He is a full roller. You'd have to ask him whats his intentions are. He can be intentionally full rolling for distance but his setup and mechanics delays or retards the roll/face closure. He cant have that distance without his intent and muscle functions towards full roll.

Also, what type of shot did he shot in there? Initial direction? Where did it land, trajectory? How far, max power, mid, or minimum effort? Wind, is there any, direction, mph? What round, what hole, is he in contention, leading, aggressive strategy, trying to be safe, adrenalin coming in?

Darn, there are too many variables that SHOULD be considered...you could be wrong, I could be wrong, we all could be wrong...heck even Alvaro if you ask him and he honestly answers could be wrong with his own swing...there are many involuntary muscle/tendon firing that even MDs don't know about...lol. Only Hogan knows... Maybe we should pool resources (instead of golf books, gadgets, seminars, schools, teachers...) and find a real authentic sorcerer to talk and get the info directly from Mr. Hogan?...lol
[/quote]

First of all rolling doesn't add any speed or add any yards. That's just simple geometric and has been one of the biggest myths in golf for years. Sweetspot is just too close to the shaft that it could.

What seems to be no too well understood is that there is something that player is doing and something that happens opposite way even when player tries to resist it. And there we go back to slow cameras again which has been disaster for golf teaching. Nowadays the Youtube is full of hi-speed videos where we can see what really happens and lot ow close up videos from club head when it's rotating open at impact, stays open for few inches after that and then rolls quickly, because it can't do anything else at that point when arms fully extends and it's impossible to resist that closing by laws of geometry and physics.

Those moves are so easy to see by watching few parts of the body relative to each other... "If I tell You where to look"

Quiros is not rolling.
[/quote]

Agree 100%. Rolling of clubface in relation to hosel/shaft has immaterial effect on distance but has material effect on direction.

It's the roll of whole clubhead/sweetspot in relation to left hand/wrist/arm/shoulder that's material, in fact I think that's all there is to distance. How fast you roll that is the only thing that you can do something about that substantially affects distance alone (and shaft length and loft of course). Even PA#2 (left wristccck is in my mind useless without PA#3 (the roll).

Hogan made the "roll delay" mechanisms to affect the club-FACE roll vs hosel/shaft, but maintained and exploited club-HEAD roll vs left wrist/arm/shoulder. PA#3 baby! Lol

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316152969' post='3567708']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316149173' post='3567664']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316142206' post='3567484']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316109652' post='3566441']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316107435' post='3566352']
Is that quiros
[/quote]
Yes, Alvaro Quiros.

The face is much more open to it's path than it would be even on free ride. Afraid to even think what will happen if he rolls other way
[/quote]

He is a full roller. You'd have to ask him whats his intentions are. He can be intentionally full rolling for distance but his setup and mechanics delays or retards the roll/face closure. He cant have that distance without his intent and muscle functions towards full roll.

Also, what type of shot did he shot in there? Initial direction? Where did it land, trajectory? How far, max power, mid, or minimum effort? Wind, is there any, direction, mph? What round, what hole, is he in contention, leading, aggressive strategy, trying to be safe, adrenalin coming in?

Darn, there are too many variables that SHOULD be considered...you could be wrong, I could be wrong, we all could be wrong...heck even Alvaro if you ask him and he honestly answers could be wrong with his own swing...there are many involuntary muscle/tendon firing that even MDs don't know about...lol. Only Hogan knows... Maybe we should pool resources (instead of golf books, gadgets, seminars, schools, teachers...) and find a real authentic sorcerer to talk and get the info directly from Mr. Hogan?...lol
[/quote]

First of all rolling doesn't add any speed or add any yards. That's just simple geometric and has been one of the biggest myths in golf for years. Sweetspot is just too close to the shaft that it could.

What seems to be no too well understood is that there is something that player is doing and something that happens opposite way even when player tries to resist it. And there we go back to slow cameras again which has been disaster for golf teaching. Nowadays the Youtube is full of hi-speed videos where we can see what really happens and lot ow close up videos from club head when it's rotating open at impact, stays open for few inches after that and then rolls quickly, because it can't do anything else at that point when arms fully extends and it's impossible to resist that closing by laws of geometry and physics.

Those moves are so easy to see by watching few parts of the body relative to each other... "If I tell You where to look"

Quiros is not rolling.
[/quote]

Agree 100%. Rolling of clubface in relation to hosel/shaft has immaterial effect on distance but has material effect on direction.

It's the roll of whole clubhead/sweetspot in relation to left hand/wrist/arm/shoulder that's material, in fact I think that's all there is to distance. How fast you roll that is the only thing that you can do something about that substantially affects distance alone (and shaft length and loft of course). Even PA#2 (left wristccck is in my mind useless without PA#3 (the roll).

Hogan made the "roll delay" mechanisms to affect the club-FACE roll vs hosel/shaft, but maintained and exploited club-HEAD roll vs left wrist/arm/shoulder. PA#3 baby! Lol
[/quote]

Have to disagree with that, but I think it's too complicated to explain by writing. You don't need any roll for max distance if You can release the club by ulnar deviation. Then You can hit it as fast as possible without fear to go left. When You learn how it's done, You will also notice that bowed left wrist is not made by palmar flexion as I thought still about one year ago. It looks like it is, but it's done different way.

[svsvincenzo]

Yeah. Difficult to put into words. But Tee, you'll shank the ball if you just use PA#2 and fisregard PA#3. But if you just use PA#3, PA#2 will automatically follow, it just will, it has no other option but to unccck.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316156058' post='3567730']
Yeah. Difficult to put into words. But Tee, you'll shank the ball if you just use PA#2 and fisregard PA#3. But if you just use PA#3, PA#2 will automatically follow, it just will, it has no other option but to unccck.
[/quote]

Only if You got some lateral movement. With pure rotation it will never shank. It's impossible. And remember that there is also MOI and other forces that got their influence to club head. Player has to resist many of those to avoid club head closing.

With strong pivot and roll together.... uuh.... You gonna be miles to the left. I know, because I have been there

[dap]

TeeAce,you don't have the anti roll mechanisms in place to be able to roll hard without actually rolling.You are not supposed to really roll,just intend to roll.I think that's what Hogan told me last night when I was in the trance.lol

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316157388' post='3567741']
TeeAce,you don't have the anti roll mechanisms in place to be able to roll hard without actually rolling.You are not supposed to really roll,just intend to roll.I think that's what Hogan told me last night when I was in the trance.lol
[/quote]

So that's you eavesdropping behind the wall while we are talking?...lol

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316156472' post='3567732']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316156058' post='3567730']
Yeah. Difficult to put into words. But Tee, you'll shank the ball if you just use PA#2 and fisregard PA#3. But if you just use PA#3, PA#2 will automatically follow, it just will, it has no other option but to unccck.
[/quote]


Only if You got some lateral movement. With pure rotation it will never shank. It's impossible. And remember that there is also MOI and other forces that got their influence to club head. Player has to resist many of those to avoid club head closing.

With strong pivot and roll together.... uuh.... You gonna be miles to the left. I know, because I have been there
[/quote]

Yes, agree. It's the pivot that mainly releases the PA#3. He's pushing the roll with PP#3, and I think also with left elbow rotation. Schlee and Bertrand seems believable to me.

What are we disagreeing again? Lol

[svsvincenzo]

Remember, Hogan said to not even think of cccking the wrists intentionally. He said the wrists cccks naturally on its own during BS, I think same applies to DS. So he's just concerned with rolling that PA#3 from BS to impact. I think that's all he's concerned about. Dap can attest to that...lol

[borker]

If we are to believe Hogan's own words, then anyone that promotes Hogan's "secret" as anything near impact is [b]wrong. [/b]Hogan said somewhere that his secret is "[i]easy to see if you know where to look[/i]". Right before, at and right after is impossible to see without the high tech high-speed cameras of today. Back then there was no way to see any supination move, bowing, any hand manipulation, etc near or at impact. So from his perspective of making that statement I think he gave us a good clue of where NOT to be looking.