Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[moehogan]

If we are to believe Hogan's own words, then anyone that promotes Hogan's "secret" as anything near impact is wrong. Hogan said somewhere that his secret is "easy to see if you know where to look". Right before, at and right after is impossible to see without the high tech high-speed cameras of today. Back then there was no way to see any supination move, bowing, any hand manipulation, etc near or at impact. So from his perspective of making that statement I think he gave us a good clue of where NOT to be looking.

No high speed video needed to see the first edition dust jacket of Mr. H's instructional masterpiece. What's he staring at? Even though Mr. H paid excruciating attention to every detail, that pic was probably just a coincidence ... or maybe the brilliant idea of the publisher's marketing staff that focusing on those two fingers of his right hand would boost sales 30%. Who knows?

 

 

How do you get from the pic on the left to the one on the right without doing something different with your right hand? And still apply the force of "three right hands"? I think Sam knew.

 

[nitram]

101,

I can see it now. You arrange the meeting and the man himself shows up. After the introduction, you have a list of questions and await anxiously for him to speak. He begins by asking you "who in the hell are you? I've told you all countless times where to look and you wake me up for this! Keep digging son, you'll either find it or die trying. Your goal is obtainable and worth the pursuit. Now good night."

But hey, it was worth a shot.........

[drewspin]

[quote name='borker' timestamp='1316166566' post='3567785']
If we are to believe Hogan's own words, then anyone that promotes Hogan's "secret" as anything near impact is [b]wrong. [/b]Hogan said somewhere that his secret is "[i]easy to see if you know where to look[/i]". Right before, at and right after is impossible to see without the high tech high-speed cameras of today. Back then there was no way to see any supination move, bowing, any hand manipulation, etc near or at impact. So from his perspective of making that statement I think he gave us a good clue of where NOT to be looking.
[/quote]

Difficult, but NOT impossible.

There were some "high tech" high speed large format film cameras back then that did capture Hogan's swing in a sequence and did show what he did.

In a few of these images, you can see the supination move.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

 

imo, that left is a practice swing, and pre 47 he said he rotated the club in the stock strong grip (particularly the right hand) to shape shots, so who knows what kooky feel he was practicing there.

[svsvincenzo]

I think the main benefit of pressure or holding on with just 2 middle fingers of right hand, together with pressing the bases of right thumb and index finger like Siamese twins, together with feeling tips of right thumb and index finger almost off the shaft---doing these predisposes and encourage right hand/wrist to bend back passively/ naturally without need for active manipulation during swing, and thus allow whatever the left hand/arm wants to do without interfering at all. It also totally eliminates "casting" via release of right wrist bend, but still allows PP#3 to go forward and help at impact. Hogan genius...

[ej002]

The two finger thing is genious. If you ever hit shots with the pistol grip it works. But "pressures" are not visable and easy to see "if you know where to look".

The more I watch his swing, the more I see his swing as a series of slap-shots to the high glove side.

[svsvincenzo]

Did he say the "it's easy to see if you know where to look" after the '55 Life secret article or before?

[drewspin]

Regarding the two fingers that grip on his right hand: study his right hand position at the top of the backswing... Hogan gained a lot of right arm leverage with only those two fingers on the club...

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?imgurl=f283951d4a2098dd&q=ben%20hogan%20source:life&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dben%2Bhogan%2Bsource:life%26hl%3Den%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch

His right lifeline completely disengages from his left thumb

[tembolo1284]

I love this thread.

[dap]

I don't think the pic on the left is Hogan but obviously I cannot be 100%.Too many things wrong with it.The big flip,knees don't drive much and if you magnify the pic and look at his face,it doesn't even look like him.

Flipping the club and full rolling are chalk and cheese.I refuse to believe Hogan flipped,even before his secret.

[attachment=859607:MrHrelease-comparison.jpg]

[dap]

Sure it isn't Gardner Dickinson?

[moehogan]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316196688' post='3568555']
Sure it isn't Gardner Dickinson?
[/quote]
I think it is reasonable to assume it is legit ... I'll leave it to you to disprove.

[url="http://www.historicgolfphotos.com/store/hogan-ben-pictures-photographs-prints-art/product/ben-hogan-teeing-off-at-hillcrest-country-club-1946/"]Historic Golf Photos[/url]

[ej002]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1316193418' post='3568428']
Regarding the two fingers that grip on his right hand: study his right hand position at the top of the backswing... Hogan gained a lot of right arm leverage with only those two fingers on the club...

http://images.google.com/hosted/life/f?imgurl=f283951d4a2098dd&q=ben%20hogan%20source:life&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dben%2Bhogan%2Bsource:life%26hl%3Den%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch

His right lifeline completely disengages from his left thumb
[/quote]


That is an amazing pick up. It looks like he would only be holding the grip with his fingers and the two knuckle joints in the hand. Exactly like the cover of 5L shows, not in the palm at all really.

[3righthands]

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1316198868' post='3568625']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316196688' post='3568555']
Sure it isn't Gardner Dickinson?
[/quote]
I think it is reasonable to assume it is legit ... I'll leave it to you to disprove.

[url="http://www.historicgolfphotos.com/store/hogan-ben-pictures-photographs-prints-art/product/ben-hogan-teeing-off-at-hillcrest-country-club-1946/"]Historic Golf Photos[/url]
[/quote]


It's not Hogan. The next picture in the collection is Hogan. Unless he changed shoes from impact to follow-through.

[drewspin]

Not Hogan.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316195085' post='3568501']
I don't think the pic on the left is Hogan but obviously I cannot be 100%.Too many things wrong with it.The big flip,knees don't drive much and if you magnify the pic and look at his face,it doesn't even look like him.

Flipping the club and full rolling are chalk and cheese.I refuse to believe Hogan flipped,even before his secret.

[attachment=859607:MrHrelease-comparison.jpg]
[/quote]

I agree. Even if that's a practice swing, it doesn't mean he's flipping at impact. Remember, his right hand is weaker than the already weak left hand. So his right palm lifeline is ON TOP of left thumb/hand. So if the right fully unbends after impact due to CP/CF, it will look exactly like the pic on left even if you bow (palmar flex) the left wrist. Plus the camera is not as face-on compared to the pic on right, so left hand on left pic will look like it has not rolled/supinated as much, hence the "flip" look.

And even assuming, for the sake of argument, that he flipped at that point in left pic (which is way past impact), would it matter? For all we know, Hogan may have intentionally "given in" with left hand/wrist AFTER impact, hence the flip, in order to "cushion" or absorb the club's violent throw in order to lessen/cushion his torso turn in follow-thru. Sort of like he's starting to re-ccck the left wrist to absorb the energy of clubhead throw.

Or, he may be trying to hit a higher than normal shot in left pic, while in right pic a lower than normal shot. Heck, we don't know!...lol

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='3righthands' timestamp='1316221087' post='3569351']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1316198868' post='3568625']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316196688' post='3568555']
Sure it isn't Gardner Dickinson?
[/quote]
I think it is reasonable to assume it is legit ... I'll leave it to you to disprove.

[url="http://www.historicgolfphotos.com/store/hogan-ben-pictures-photographs-prints-art/product/ben-hogan-teeing-off-at-hillcrest-country-club-1946/"]Historic Golf Photos[/url]
[/quote]


It's not Hogan. The next picture in the collection is Hogan. Unless he changed shoes from impact to follow-through.
[/quote]

haha, nice catch! I suppose someone might say that they could be from two different days, except the folks in the background look to be the same so it was probably a playing partner, or someone in a nearby group like perhaps Dickinson as mentioned prior.

[moehogan]

[quote name='3righthands' timestamp='1316221087' post='3569351']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1316198868' post='3568625']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316196688' post='3568555']
Sure it isn't Gardner Dickinson?
[/quote]
I think it is reasonable to assume it is legit ... I'll leave it to you to disprove.

[url="http://www.historicgolfphotos.com/store/hogan-ben-pictures-photographs-prints-art/product/ben-hogan-teeing-off-at-hillcrest-country-club-1946/"]Historic Golf Photos[/url]
[/quote]


It's not Hogan. The next picture in the collection is Hogan. Unless he changed shoes from impact to follow-through.
[/quote]
I agree ... nice catch. Is this a photoshop job? Obviously calls this vendor's integrity into question.

[JD3]

How much of this is simply down to grip? Weaker grip should build in that FLW/face not turning over w/o need to resist or hold anything. IMO strong grips like an Azinger or Zack Johnson require a conscious "hold" thought.

[dap]

I don't believe Hogan rolled his forearms over before 1946.There is no video evidence that he ever full rolled.He never ever had an early crossover.

The combination of factors that caused him to hook early in his career was supination of the left wrist together with a grip that is too strong.Supination makes the back of the left wrist want to face the target at imapact.If the grip is too strong this will mean a closed clubface.He weakened his grip and then found he could supinate as hard as he wanted without fear of a closed face.You could say Hogan was a little slow to figure that out what with all that time on the range.

I have said before that Hogan always had a Ferrari.It was just out of tune prior to 1946.

If you don't have a Ferrari by now,you probably never will.You can tune a Corolla as much as you want but it aint gonna perform like a Ferrari.

[dap]

So I would say Sam's guess was wrong.Hogan never crossed over early,pre or pro secret.

He weakened his grip.Simple as that.

[JD3]

But even with weak grip there's still some roll. It's just " in sync " doesn't change the radial alignments. Id argue it just happens if youve done other things correct.

[dap]

That's the beauty of supination IF you can do it.It rolls the left wrist into a square position at impact.If you roll the wrist over to square the face,then it becomes a crap shoot.You could leave the face open or shut it too much.

Supination is not easy to do though.To test if you can do it take your 9 iron and then deloft it into a 7 or even a 6 without having to cheat by putting the ball back in your stance.

[dap]

....oh and without crossing over early.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='JD3' timestamp='1316234240' post='3569774']
But even with weak grip there's still some roll. It's just " in sync " doesn't change the radial alignments. Id argue it just happens if youve done other things correct.
[/quote]


I have to wonder why so many are talking about that roll, when everything shows so clearly that there is no way he rolled with those positions?

I thought this was clear times ago at least at this forum.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316234999' post='3569796']
That's the beauty of supination IF you can do it.It rolls the left wrist into a square position at impact.If you roll the wrist over to square the face,then it becomes a crap shoot.You could leave the face open or shut it too much.

Supination is not easy to do though.To test if you can do it take your 9 iron and then deloft it into a 7 or even a 6 without having to cheat by putting the ball back in your stance.
[/quote]

Supination is most easy thing to do if You really talk about supination (forearm rotation outwards)

Even the "supinated position" is really easy to find at impact if You just know what to do.

How many from this forum has really put themselves to Hogans impact position and made clear for themselves what kind of moves are needed and where to get it done? There is many ways to get near but not too many when everything is at the right position. When once learned that, it could be possible to find out those opposite moves that makes it happen. That's not hard to do but when trying to achieve it with full speed.... another story. But for understanding.. that's crucial

[dap]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316246963' post='3569931']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316234999' post='3569796']
That's the beauty of supination IF you can do it.It rolls the left wrist into a square position at impact.If you roll the wrist over to square the face,then it becomes a crap shoot.You could leave the face open or shut it too much.

Supination is not easy to do though.To test if you can do it take your 9 iron and then deloft it into a 7 or even a 6 without having to cheat by putting the ball back in your stance.
[/quote]

Supination is most easy thing to do if You really talk about supination (forearm rotation outwards)

Even the "supinated position" is really easy to find at impact if You just know what to do.

How many from this forum has really put themselves to Hogans impact position and made clear for themselves what kind of moves are needed and where to get it done? There is many ways to get near but not too many when everything is at the right position. When once learned that, it could be possible to find out those opposite moves that makes it happen. That's not hard to do but when trying to achieve it with full speed.... another story. But for understanding.. that's crucial
[/quote]
Of course it's easy to do if you just pose it.But we don't pose when we play golf.

The reason why supination(delofting) is hard to do is because the hands and wrists are simply not strong enough to do it by themselves.You need the pivot participation of someone like Hogan to do it.That's the reason why delofting is easier with a PW than it is with a 4 iron.The clubhead speed is less and the hands may be strong enough to do it without a lot of pivot participation.Get to the driver and you can almost forget about supination.

[dap]

I believe Hogan was a master at delofting.He learnt it by watching his good friend Jimmy Demaret who Hogan said did this move the best.On windy days that blew other players all over the course,he could keep the ball under the wind and in control.

[svsvincenzo]

No rolling intent would be Power Golf. With rolling intent would be 5Lessons and '55 Life article. So in analyzing Mr. Hogan, we'll just disregard what he said?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316254992' post='3569967']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316246963' post='3569931']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316234999' post='3569796']
That's the beauty of supination IF you can do it.It rolls the left wrist into a square position at impact.If you roll the wrist over to square the face,then it becomes a crap shoot.You could leave the face open or shut it too much.

Supination is not easy to do though.To test if you can do it take your 9 iron and then deloft it into a 7 or even a 6 without having to cheat by putting the ball back in your stance.
[/quote]

Supination is most easy thing to do if You really talk about supination (forearm rotation outwards)

Even the "supinated position" is really easy to find at impact if You just know what to do.

How many from this forum has really put themselves to Hogans impact position and made clear for themselves what kind of moves are needed and where to get it done? There is many ways to get near but not too many when everything is at the right position. When once learned that, it could be possible to find out those opposite moves that makes it happen. That's not hard to do but when trying to achieve it with full speed.... another story. But for understanding.. that's crucial
[/quote]
Of course it's easy to do if you just pose it.But we don't pose when we play golf.

The reason why supination(delofting) is hard to do is because the hands and wrists are simply not strong enough to do it by themselves.You need the pivot participation of someone like Hogan to do it.That's the reason why delofting is easier with a PW than it is with a 4 iron.The clubhead speed is less and the hands may be strong enough to do it without a lot of pivot participation.Get to the driver and you can almost forget about supination.
[/quote]

Supination doesn't mean delofting and IMO it has been one of the greatest misunderstandings in many ways. Thats why I asked if someone has put them [b]exactly[/b] to Hogans impact position and really understands what has happened there and what are the moves to get there from transition.

So the supination is pure rotation of forearm and got nothing to do with bowed wrist, but can have some connection to Bertrand's left elbow move. Bowed left wrist can be made by palmar flexion, and I thought few months ago that it was the way it happened, but one thread here with comments of Fats changed my mind and I think I understood how it really was done. And it really opened my eyes also to Hogans grip that looked weak even when it wasn't.

The funny part is that Hogan really made mistake when using word "left wrist starts to supinate" because it went to ulnar deviation at that point and that's something I've heard no one talking about. He talked about rises wrist bone, and that can't be made by supination or palmar flexion. That also can't be done by ulnar deviation alone, but when You put together real supination and UD, You will get that position. That is for me best move to avoid face closing without loosing any power. All other mentioned moves throws the ch outside of the hands and closes it, but this combination keeps it in and open no matter how strongly You do it.