Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[svsvincenzo]

Agree 100% with Dap. With all those anti-roll delay mechanisms, not releasing PA#3/supination is preposterous even how fast your pivot is. But Teeace himself said he squares the club with pivot. That actually releases PA#3 and results to supination and UD. Not the other way around. Hogan is still full cccked at around P5-P6, no much release yet of PA#2=the Hogan unprecedented lag...at that state, keeping the PA#3 intact will shoot the ball wide right.

Teeace, in your swing demo, you actually released PA#3 when you UDd PA#2. Otherwise, with the hands way behind the navel as you said and right hand resisting as you said, at impact your hips/torso would have to be open by 90degrees to square the face. That's not Hogan though. He has tremendous UNPRECEDENTED lag, only Sergio came close. Hogan cannot have that if he UDd like you showed us. It's the other way around. Your left hand-arm actually supinates already from P5-P6.

Can you show us your study/research of PA#2 so we can compare it to Hogan?

[dap]

Sorry,made an error.The clubface is not 30 degrees open,it is 45 deg open.If you hit a ball with that face alignment,i shudder to think what the shot will look like.

[attachment=860945:dsw.mov_snapshot_00.15_2011.09.19_16.59.21.jpg]

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316422699' post='3573344']
Yes,I can see it thanks.

That is not a real swing and Hogan doesn't UD early like that.The most of important thing is the clubface is not square.It is at least 30 degrees open.Supinate your left forearm another 30 degrees and it will be square.That pretty much sums it up.
[/quote]

So You don't want to understand, just arguing against everything that is against Your old thoughts.

I showed You the movements separated at that video, and I can tell You that putter face was about 5 degrees open in reality, and mainly because I did'n took my hands left enough. . You can't show when and how that UD move happens, because everything is happening at the same time in real swing. It's something really irrelevant here. The point is that those are the needed moves and there is no supination included and the face is square.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316423039' post='3573350']
Sorry,made an error.The clubface is not 30 degrees open,it is 45 deg open.If you hit a ball with that face alignment,i shudder to think what the shot will look like.

[attachment=860945:dsw.mov_snapshot_00.15_2011.09.19_16.59.21.jpg]
[/quote]

You got broken monitor? In reality its about 5 degrees open relative to the direction it's moving. It's hard to take proper grip from putter...

[dap]

The face is not square.It is not even 5 deg open,it is more like 45.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316423376' post='3573355']
The face is not square.It is not even 5 deg open,it is more like 45.
[/quote]

I didn't see You were here watching. Do You think I would post that video if it would be like You said? Use Your brain man...

You see what You wan't and keep on believing what You believe. Some people just can't change their mind whatever evidence is given. In those cases it's better stop with them.

[dap]

Oh dear! Is this some sort of joke?The face of that putter is not even close to square.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316423838' post='3573358']
Oh dear! Is this some sort of joke?The face of that putter is not even close to square.
[/quote]

This is getting crazy. I was here and I saw the blade million times better than You can see from the video. And now You even argue against that, even You can't even see what was the direction of that move. I wouldn't post that video with more open face. Try to understand that small part at least.

[eightiron]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316396730' post='3572770']
Dude - Eight so you are trying to say that you can't turn your palm up from "neutral" position relaxed at your side? That doesn't make sense in reality.
[/quote]

From anatomical neutral ... Already in supine position

[eightiron]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316422095' post='3573337']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316420823' post='3573332']
You haven't even answered my question.

And you better be able to explain how 20 to 30 open shoulders at impact is going to cancel out 90 degrees of pronation without having to supinate AT ALL.
[/quote]

I don't know if You can open [url="http://teeace.kapsi.fi/dsw.mov"]this[/url], but unfortunately I don't got better quality video to put there....Yes I got 120k studio, but not one cheap video camera

There is absolutely zero rotation of left forearm and the face is about square. Noe You only have to find out how it's done
[/quote]

Smoking video , like a release and hold move to the ball kinda like a David toms type , hunter mahan but not sniffing hogans release ...
You gotta look into double wrist action more , hogan has more gears than the 1 speed push bike

[dap]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316424775' post='3573363']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316423838' post='3573358']
Oh dear! Is this some sort of joke?The face of that putter is not even close to square.
[/quote]

This is getting crazy. I was here and I saw the blade million times better than You can see from the video. And now You even argue against that, even You can't even see what was the direction of that move. I wouldn't post that video with more open face. Try to understand that small part at least.
[/quote]
Your eyes can lie.Pictures don't.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316425420' post='3573369']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316424775' post='3573363']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316423838' post='3573358']
Oh dear! Is this some sort of joke?The face of that putter is not even close to square.
[/quote]

This is getting crazy. I was here and I saw the blade million times better than You can see from the video. And now You even argue against that, even You can't even see what was the direction of that move. I wouldn't post that video with more open face. Try to understand that small part at least.
[/quote]
Your eyes can lie.Pictures don't.
[/quote]


LOL!!!!

[dap]

TeeAce,do you wanna put that picture up as a poll and see how many people will see an open face and how many will see it square?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1316425272' post='3573367']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316422095' post='3573337']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316420823' post='3573332']
You haven't even answered my question.

And you better be able to explain how 20 to 30 open shoulders at impact is going to cancel out 90 degrees of pronation without having to supinate AT ALL.
[/quote]

I don't know if You can open [url="http://teeace.kapsi.fi/dsw.mov"]this[/url], but unfortunately I don't got better quality video to put there....Yes I got 120k studio, but not one cheap video camera

There is absolutely zero rotation of left forearm and the face is about square. Noe You only have to find out how it's done
[/quote]

Smoking video , like a release and hold move to the ball kinda like a David toms type , hunter mahan but not sniffing hogans release ...
You gotta look into double wrist action more , hogan has more gears than the 1 speed push bike
[/quote]


For sure and many pieces were missing there. That was only trying to show that UD move which is part of the action and how pure rotation of body closes the ch that much. So it didn't meant to be complete instruction of all those moves.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316425704' post='3573372']
TeeAce,do you wanna put that picture up as a poll and see how many people will see an open face and how many will see it square?
[/quote]

Would like to ask how many people even put attention to that, because they can't see the direction where it's moving. That's not relevant but as seen You don't have the wiliness to understand the whole case.

[svsvincenzo]

Even if it's square at impact, you actually rolled/supinated during the UD move.

You think that's Hogan Teeace? Where's the lag?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316431119' post='3573414']
Even if it's square at impact,[b] you actually rolled/supinated during the UD move. [/b]

I quoted the most important post all-time and it just got out the other ear...What eightiron said is exactly what lake said..eight can read...mainly because his vocabulary's spectacular...lol
[/quote]

Not even a bit. My left arm relative to the shoulder line and torso didn't change any.

Try to find it, it's out there somewhere.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316431734' post='3573419']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316431119' post='3573414']
Even if it's square at impact,[b] you actually rolled/supinated during the UD move. [/b]

I quoted the most important post all-time and it just got out the other ear...What eightiron said is exactly what lake said..eight can read...mainly because his vocabulary's spectacular...lol
[/quote]

Not even a bit. My left arm relative to the shoulder line and torso didn't change any.

Try to find it, it's out there somewhere.
[/quote]

That's not PA#3 Tee, that's PA#4. I'm talking about the supination/roll of whole left arm, in your case the left hand.

The back of your left hand went from sort of facing the sky more at P4/P5, going to sort of facing the camera more at P6, then you hold it. Exactly as lake/8 said. That's supination, correct? Hogan said supination happens from P6 to P7 to P7.5.

C'mon Teeace... that's what I found. Can't find what you're alluding to...enlighten us...

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316418481' post='3573315']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316417284' post='3573301']
TeeAce,you haven't even addressed my point.There is pronation of the left forearm in the backswing no?In the the case Hogan what with his opening up of the arm shoulder triangle in the early downswing,he pronates his forearms even more than most players.If he doesn't supinate coming into imapact,how the heck is he gonna square back the face???Simple,simple concept....and I haven't even used one big word.
[/quote]

[b]Pronating his arms? How could he pronate both of those?

Look at the picture of impact. Left arm is still more pronated than it was at address. The left elbow pointing out and even more relative to the hands moving direction.

It's complicated to understand, ....[/b]
[/quote]

that's not pronation, thats supination, lol.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316435375' post='3573491']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316431734' post='3573419']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316431119' post='3573414']
Even if it's square at impact,[b] you actually rolled/supinated during the UD move. [/b]

I quoted the most important post all-time and it just got out the other ear...What eightiron said is exactly what lake said..eight can read...mainly because his vocabulary's spectacular...lol
[/quote]

Not even a bit. My left arm relative to the shoulder line and torso didn't change any.

Try to find it, it's out there somewhere.
[/quote]

That's not PA#3 Tee, that's PA#4. I'm talking about the supination/roll of whole left arm, in your case the left hand.

The back of your left hand went from sort of facing the sky more at P4/P5, going to sort of facing the camera more at P6, then you hold it. Exactly as lake/8 said. That's supination, correct? Hogan said supination happens from P6 to P7 to P7.5.

C'mon Teeace... that's what I found. Can't find what you're alluding to...enlighten us...
[/quote]

You make the common mistake by checking things against background when should be checked relative to the other body parts. Everething is moving everywhere and that's the confusing part. For example front shoulder has rotated about 90 degrees at that period, even the shoulder line has turned only about 55-60. And the left arm is only connected to left shoulder. And that shoulder also moves up, not only around.

The other parts that are changing the direction of the back of the hand is little PF and UD. But for sure my left arm hasn't rotated a bit. All the changes in it's position has been made by other movements of the body. Pity I can't show it to anyone IRL. When once demonstrated live, it's so clear after that.

[grahler]

People here seem to think Hogan had a large degree of left arm pronation on his backswing-perhaps even increasing during elbow tuck in transition. The argument is that if you pronate going back quite a bit you need to supinate back going through to get back to square.
Problem is Hogan rotated left arm going on backswing way less than you think.
His right elbow tuck into pitch was more done by right arm rotation -he got range of motion from left by palmar flexion in transition. Left arm just doesn't need to rotate.

[dap]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316440829' post='3573627']
People here seem to think Hogan had a large degree of left arm pronation on his backswing-perhaps even increasing during elbow tuck in transition. The argument is that if you pronate going back quite a bit you need to supinate back going through to get back to square.
Problem is Hogan rotated left arm going on backswing way less than you think.
His right elbow tuck into pitch was more done by right arm rotation -he got range of motion from left by palmar flexion in transition. Left arm just doesn't need to rotate.
[/quote]
Grahler,the only way to lay the club off is with clockwise left forearm rotation which is pronation.The more you pronate,the more you are laid off.I have no idea how you can conclude the opposite.Even TeeAce won't make such a claim.

The opening of the arm shoulder triangle that you talk about requires you to pronate the left forearm AS WELL AS tucking in the right elbow.You can't do one without the other.Some instructors such as Brady Riggs call it a quarter turn.

If you insist that you can make this lay off move without much left forearm pronation,then we will just have to agree to disagree,there is nothing more I can say.

[ej002]

I think you can see what TA is trying to say in this video of Toms. (Agreed with 8 that this is a singe geared bike, but I think it shows the basics of what is being discussed). You can see Toms' left arm is not rolling, just holding. It looks like he will miss the ball on the downswing. However all he has to do is drop the head on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gb88dI4huDo


I think you guys are forgetting that Hogan's shoulder were 30* open at impact. If you ulnar deviate and open up, the face will square without any active left arm supination. Just try to mimic Teeace's video. From his starting point, dont do anything but ulnar deviate, (drop the face). Just rotate open from there. At impact the face may be a bit open, but you will have that left arm similar to Hogan. In relation to the target the left forearm has rotated a bunch to square the face in relation. However, the left arm did not supinate in relation to the body. (In actuallity it may have supinated a bit, to account for the arms coming down a bit from that position, but I dont think this is active or what you are saying).

Also, if the face is open a bit, you also have to account for the forces of CP/CF (I get them confused) that will tug on the face and shut it down.

[dap]

ej,what TeeAce is doing in his video has got nothing to do with a real swing anyway.No good player releases that early,even Toms.I see plenty of hackers release like that though.

As for Hogan's open shoulders at impact,I doubt they were that open.You are just exaggerating for effect.But I absolutely agree that Hogan used shoulder rotation to help square up the face,which meant he didn't have to full roll past impact.That doesn't mean he didn't supinate at all.Opening your shoulders 20 degrees is not going to cancel 90 degrees of pronation.

[dap]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316431119' post='3573414']
Even if it's square at impact, you actually rolled/supinated during the UD move.

You think that's Hogan Teeace? Where's the lag?
[/quote]
Good eye 101.I see exactly the same thing.He supinated as he uncocked.Even then he couldn't get the face to square.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

if the back of the left wrist rotates counter clockwise in relation to the top of the forearm, then supination has occurred.

[attachment=860992:shellsupination.jpg]

not that hogan was using the strict bio medical definition, lol

[ej002]

I agree nobody does that when they swing, it was a demonstration. 30* is probably exagerated. Either way, I think you guys are both taking a hard line. I dont understand it, but if you do what he did in the video, there is no active arm supination and the face comes lose to square. You also have to realize that Teeace said the grip is stronger than what most think. It appears weak b/c of the high hands at set up. So I think this (stronger grip) will also account for some of the face closure.

Regardless of his demonstration, it actually does work. Really the ulnar deviation happens last, the club just falls late. But the point is there is minimal, if any, supination. I think whan you do the ulnar deviation, the wrist bones and the muscles in the forarm have to change, causing a bit of supination (as least when the forearm is on the inclined plane). Try Teeace's demonstration the opposite way, drop the wrist last. Same thing.

[grahler]

The layoff move is dorsiflexion of right and Palmar flex left.
I think you guys ought to open your mind to tees explanation. LOL
Hogans problem had nothing to do with squaring face. Its so simple in real life not even arguable IMO.

[grahler]

Why add something that causes a hook?

[ej002]

Joe -

See, I am not sure that happened. I dont think any rotation from the top of the arm down happens on teh back swing. It think the whole arm rotates, as a result of going up the inclined plane. Than it does the opposite on the way down. But this is in relation to teh ball and the target line, not the body.

Do this:

Stand natural with the arms loose at the side. They naturally are already kind of at a 45* to the target line. If you just rotate your hips to the right (letting the arms naturally move), the left arm appears to pronate (but nothting really was done to it). Add the inclined plane and it will look like you are rolling it open, but it is just going up.

Now from the same neutral start position. Open your hips and shoulders into impact position (let the arms naturally do what they want without doing anything active to your arms). The left arm just squares up naturally.

I think this is what Tee is saying. There is no movement of the forearm independant of the rest of the arm.