Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[golow]

Hogan has some but not a lot of lead arm pronation in the back swing the top. Maybe none on some swings depending on his feel or what he was trying to achieve ... certainly not going to analyze his thoughts.

He's not laid off (much) relative to his arm plane, but looks like he does this when he loses the cup in the transition (no supination there)

He likely moves out of a slightly pronated lead arm to return to near neutral (neutral meaning halfway between full pronation and full supination, not anatomical neutral which is full supination - blame da Vinci)

Most still pictures at impact (from a good angle) show that he is in slight pronation to neutral, but not supinated. Did he move from some pronation at the top to less pronation at impact ? Yes. Sometimes. Technically this is supinating. He never gets on the supinated side of supinating though

Do TeeAce's "drill" - do it with a modicum of pronation of the lead arm going back - it works, now do it with full tilt lead arm pronation in the takeaway. Still works you just have to have the shoulders more open at impact. Pivot driven.

Any minimal pronation and then return not to mention the UD in Hogan's swing was never isolated, conscious or intentional ... my man had passive hands.

This is how I hit (try) the high late fade (over trees). Twist away and hold it there with a good pivot.

Try the Faldo drill - no pronation to the top and no supination to impact. Otherwise you are doing it wrong.
Hit a fully compressed 9 & 3 the Geoff wants you to hit it ... no supination down thru impact.

golow(TM)

[ej002]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1316466234' post='3574926']

As far as being possible to get enough auto-supination on the DS, hasn't this question been answered by slicefixer? Doesn't he teach an active roll of the clubface into the plane on the BS, and no deliberate roll at all in the pivot-only DS?
[/quote]

I am not sure "auto supination" is the same thing as what TeeAce is saying. Auto supination can be done, no problem. Now it is interesting to read what Golow wrote above. He is saying there is no supination at all (with Geoff's teaching). I would say it depends on the individual and grip etc. I would agree with him, that Slice's guys who have stronger grips probably dont supinate on the downswing much at all. DEFINATELY NOT conscioiusly. With a driver and long iron? It is more likely than with a wedge. But again it is probably not beyond neutral.

Even TeeAce said that with the free ride, it is hard to keep the face open. So ideally, I think there would be very little supination (as in toward neutral). 0%? That would be tough.

But "auto supination" gives me the impression that you guys are referring to 90* closure - that is not happening IMO, at least not with Geoff's better guys.

[golow]

Keep in mind that Geoff likes a pronation move from hip high and to the top to shallow the club. In a 9 to 3 you just don't get to that point ... This is why the body is less open at impact vs in a full swing (see Matt et al). Further support thrown to TeeAce IMO.

Big circle of gears (shoulders) turning a little circle (club face rotation) . Core stall = face rate of face closure, non-stop body rotation = slow rate. And with slow rate comes face control with the pivot. That much I understand ... Now which one of you schmoes can make it repeat in weathered body ?

golow(TM)

[grahler]

Auto supination to me sounds like letting the club takeover that is opposite to my intent with these posts

[grahler]

To me the face needs no roll independently from pivot

[moehogan]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316463972' post='3574810']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1316462671' post='3574730']
[
The rotational forces of the pivot cause the left arm to want to supinate and the right arm to pronate on the DS ... flyout and crossover result from dragging dead, passive hands through impact. Sit in a desk chair and swivel back and forth from side to side with limp arms and see how they react.

That's why Sam said the right hand was the fix. Let the pivot try to supinate the left arm/hand but use the right hand, trying to hold it's supination, as a check rein. But once you engage the right hand, you will need to engage the left as a counter check rein ... both hands with the pivot powering the CP release.

But I think you gotta know how to do it with grip pressures and hand action!
[/quote]

You got it just right and modification of the golf club still increases the effect. And there is lot of actions at inner circle and middle that wants to throw ch out.
[/quote]
T,

Interested to hear how you think clubs need to be modified to take advantage of this.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1316466234' post='3574926']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316458977' post='3574493']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316458508' post='3574455']
This is so simple guys it is eliminating moving parts
[/quote]
I don't think Hogan eliminated moving parts to much extent.All he did was assist his forearm rotation with his pivot more than most other players.
[/quote]

As far as being possible to get enough auto-supination on the DS, hasn't this question been answered by slicefixer? Doesn't he teach an active roll of the clubface into the plane on the BS, and no deliberate roll at all in the pivot-only DS?
[/quote]

yes, I would say that his best players even resist the closing of the face to some degree, hence one of his favorite and oft used sayings with better players "don't let the toe catch the heel.". The handpath and angle of attack of the clubhead play a huge role in this. The shallower the clubhead is approaching, the faster it wants to slam shut. So he likes the feel of sliding the clubface down Hogan's pane of glass as long as possible, certainly the opposite of squaring the face to the plane early, as some guys teach

[Pinsplitter59]

gotta love this debate, like kids scrapping in the schoolyard.
reminds me of some modern psychologists who try to understand meditative states by attaching wires and measuring machines to people.
one myth is mentioned here, that Hogan "downlooped" or dropped his hands from the top,
maybe he felt like he did, but pics say otherwise.

back to original topic.
the interesting story that Hogan once asked to play with Mike Austin, it has been reported that the reason was that Hogan wanted to understand how Austin faded the ball.
Here is a pic of Mike Dunaway (with Mike Austin in a DVD) showing how the left wrist should work and not work through impact.
He also explains the the left wrist keeps going like that until about hip-high in follow through and only then does it roll over.
hmmmmm......????
[attachment=861255:Hogan_Hands_Path.jpg]
[attachment=861258:Mike_Dunaway_left_wrist.jpg]

[eightiron]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316458841' post='3574478']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316458508' post='3574455']
This is so simple guys it is eliminating moving parts
[/quote]

Yes it does. Supination rolls face closed and get's timing more difficult. How could Hogan who fighter a hook do something like that. For sure he did everything to avoid the face closing.
[/quote]

Any golfer has to time a release , even those who think it's automatic are .
If hogan moved the path more left post whatever year secret swing than the closing club face issue is working against your claims . Hogan himself said the left arm was the strongest part of his downswing .
Uncocking the left wrist and Palmer whatever are nothing new and you may find a swing of hogan doing that with a long club , driver earlier in the downswing or like that push cut he hit early on in the shells match that hogan hated but many use the stills of .... However there are plenty that also show an increase in left wrist bend at start down

Agree with dap on the left arm pronating on backswing ,hogan had plenty , ones who struggle can't elevate the club head so think that hogan didn't do what he said

[eightiron]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316457716' post='3574386']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1316456622' post='3574297']
This thread is quickly running off the rails. You don't need to be a PHD to be able to pick up an anatomy book and look up "supination." It's high school or college freshmen level anatomy and physiology. lol
[/quote]

I think I have get more detailed and specified anatomy education for movements in swing in this six years from those experts, than any university can ever give.

But when people are out of real arguments, this starts. And people who nows something fades away. Think about how many of them are already gone.
[/quote]

Well then you should know you can't supinate from anatomical neutral . I must have read ten times now that people know something fade away , you have an agenda on this ?
I would say people read when debates get lively , rather than not
what's real about what you presented in scientific terms say vs Manzella and his science experts who actually have the opposite view to you on the issue of the club head needing help to square up other than by body rotation or the " physics" .....
I guess a good litmus test would be to present it on that forum ...take some spare flak jackets though lol

[alansmithdc]

If one sights down HA, then swings down HA, it is nearly impossible to hit the ball left. We don't know if that was Hogan's secret, but it works none the less
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1316478504' post='3575567']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316458841' post='3574478']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316458508' post='3574455']
This is so simple guys it is eliminating moving parts
[/quote]

Yes it does. Supination rolls face closed and get's timing more difficult. How could Hogan who fighter a hook do something like that. For sure he did everything to avoid the face closing.
[/quote]

Any golfer has to time a release , even those who think it's automatic are .
If hogan moved the path more left post whatever year secret swing than the closing club face issue is working against your claims . Hogan himself said the left arm was the strongest part of his downswing .
Uncocking the left wrist and Palmer whatever are nothing new and you may find a swing of hogan doing that with a long club , driver earlier in the downswing or like that push cut he hit early on in the shells match that hogan hated but many use the stills of .... However there are plenty that also show an increase in left wrist bend at start down

Agree with dap on the left arm pronating on backswing ,hogan had plenty , ones who struggle can't elevate the club head so think that hogan didn't do what he said
[/quote]

[dap]

[quote name='golow' timestamp='1316466515' post='3574940']
Most still pictures at impact (from a good angle) show that he is in slight pronation to neutral, but not supinated. Did he move from some pronation at the top to less pronation at impact ? Yes. Sometimes. Technically this is supinating. He never gets on the supinated side of supinating though


golow(TM)
[/quote]
I can accept this.Technically he is supinating.Tha pretty much sums it up.Saying he has not gotten onto the side of supinated is splitting hairs in my opinion though.

The problem is TeeAce's suppporters claim there is zero supinating movement from a pronated position.In fact,they even try to brush it off by saying no pronation took place on the backswing.Even TeeAce himself didn't answer when I asked him whether or not Hogan pronated his left arm on the backswing.

We are going to have to agree to disagree that Hogan did not pronate his left arm a great deal on the backswing at least relative to most other players.I don't see how you can have a flat backswing and transition without doing it.

People need to realise what a huge claim is being made here.No forearm rotation going back and no re-rotation coming down.I just can't see this is possible.

[dap]

Eight,thanks for the support.It's good to hear at least one person agreeing with me and coming from you it's an honor.

[eightiron]

Hogans angle guy

If you swing down that angle which hogan did not do since he clearly shifts out different amounts , then you can still hit it left or right , depends on the face

[dap]

What better time than to jump in now with HA?LOL

[grahler]

Why did he cup his wrist? Think about why does he dorsi flex right hand in transition? Hmm think on that one also.

However if you remember back I was the one who suggested no need to supinate if there is no pronation which is simple logic right? Of course none of this really affects what Tee said about how the club is being released-sans supination.
I think I mentioned that there are two possibilities one no pronation on backswing which is possible(think about what I said above)
And also the possibility that there is pronation on backswing at some point.
Neither of these issues have to do with supination at release interval because even if one does pronate the correction(supination) could happen before release interval such as transition/early downswing.
So really I don't wish to speak for Tee because now folks are thinking pronation on backswing proves supination at release point which is not the case-one could easily rotate back before release interval.

My point is that if you have a strong pivot the problem you have to deal with is the face closing too soon too far too fast-the club wants to pull you into a crossover release which is passive.
If you have the stones at the bottom supination is the OPPOSITE to what you need for consistency.
The ulnar deviation allows the club handle to point where it needs to during impact without the face slamming shut-providing consistency.

Look above at Dunaway picture-look at the picture Tee posted of Hogan.
Thats how its done.

Sorry I just felt the argument about pronation during backswing was getting to a point where some folks think if you pronate at all on backswing Then those of us who understand ulnar deviation are wrong-not the case.
You can pronate and supinate back (your choice if you like extra moves) before release interval so I am sorry I even brought that one up.

Pronation on backswing does not mean supination at release point thats a non sequitur. Only no pronation obviously would require no supination.

None of this changes the fact that zero supination is necessary or desirable IF you pivot like Ben Hogan.

[svsvincenzo]

That's not PA#3 Tee, that's PA#4. I'm talking about the supination/roll of whole left arm, in your case the left hand.

The back of your left hand went from sort of facing the sky more at P4/P5, going to sort of facing the camera more at P6, then you hold it. Exactly as lake/8 said. That's supination, correct? Hogan said supination happens from P6 to P7 to P7.5.

C'mon Teeace... that's what I found. Can't find what you're alluding to...enlighten us...
[/quote]

You make the common mistake by checking things against background when should be checked relative to the other body parts. Everething is moving everywhere and that's the confusing part. For example front shoulder has rotated about 90 degrees at that period, even the shoulder line has turned only about 55-60. And the left arm is only connected to left shoulder. And that shoulder also moves up, not only around.

The other parts that are changing the direction of the back of the hand is little PF and UD. But for sure my left arm hasn't rotated a bit. All the changes in it's position has been made by other movements of the body. Pity I can't show it to anyone IRL. When once demonstrated live, it's so clear after that.
[/quote]

I was referring to your action when you made the UD move in your video. During your UD move, nothing else is moving except your wrists (and right arm following of course). During that UD move of left wrist, your left hand actually turned/rotated while uncccking.

And it SHOULD be, otherwise you will not hit the ball at all...lol Actually you'll hit towards the camera because right before UD move, you back of left hand is parallel to the plane towards way outside of the ball or towards the camera tripod...lol
[/quote]
101,Tee is not going to admit to supinating.Don't waste your time.
[/quote]

Well, being a teacher plays a major part on that...you've said it for a while to a or some or many students and you'll look like you've fooled them if you went from 6th gear to reverse...lol ...a one gear push bike... A race horse...lol And I really and honestly looked into it and said to myself it may be right, I even tried it for a few weeks, no months...lol..really...I like experimenting...lol Should have asked and listened to some sanamagan out there a looooong time ago...lol

[dap]

Grahler,ok so now you are saying there might be some pronation in the backswing and the supination could happen in the transition.That's pretty far from saying there is no pronation in the backswing and no supination on the downswing.

I still want to hear it straight from TeeAce's mouth.Was there left arm pronation in Hogan's backswing and transition?No answer from him.You are just assuming that there wasn't on his behalf.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1316467608' post='3575002']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1316466234' post='3574926']

As far as being possible to get enough auto-supination on the DS, hasn't this question been answered by slicefixer? Doesn't he teach an active roll of the clubface into the plane on the BS, and no deliberate roll at all in the pivot-only DS?
[/quote]

I am not sure "auto supination" is the same thing as what TeeAce is saying. Auto supination can be done, no problem. Now it is interesting to read what Golow wrote above. He is saying there is no supination at all (with Geoff's teaching). I would say it depends on the individual and grip etc. I would agree with him, that Slice's guys who have stronger grips probably dont supinate on the downswing much at all. DEFINATELY NOT conscioiusly. With a driver and long iron? It is more likely than with a wedge. But again it is probably not beyond neutral.

Even TeeAce said that with the free ride, it is hard to keep the face open. So ideally, I think there would be very little supination (as in toward neutral). 0%? That would be tough.

But "auto supination" gives me the impression that you guys are referring to 90* closure - that is not happening IMO, at least not with Geoff's better guys.
[/quote]

Why would they? Their bs plane is higher and both left and right hand grip stronger...oh there's more...less extension, less cog shift, later/less pronation, LCT/later wristccck/hinge...so what does that add up to EJ?..lol

[grahler]

Dap-did you read what I just posted?

It appears you did not read it-I do not know Tee and I can't speak for Tee. However he is right about the ulnar deviation release people are having a hard time understanding.

[grahler]

I just don't know what can be done further to explain what happens when one releases via ulnar deviation.

[dap]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316486571' post='3575974']

None of this changes the fact that zero supination is necessary or desirable IF you pivot like Ben Hogan.
[/quote]
I think it's fair to say most if not all will never pivot like Ben Hogan so this invalidates this theory entirely even if it were correct.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316485496' post='3575924']
Eight,thanks for the support.It's good to hear at least one person agreeing with me and coming from you it's an honor.
[/quote]

C'mon now...didn't I agree with you?! When it comes awards time you leave me out?..lol I'm way below eightiron's caliber, but you gotta be fair and just...lmao

[dap]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316487932' post='3576054']
I just don't know what can be done further to explain what happens when one releases via ulnar deviation.
[/quote]
Have you seen his demonstration?

His "ulnar deviation" happens where no good player "ulnar deviates".

How is that representaive of a real swing?

[grahler]

Theory? lol it is a fact that one does not need to roll release man ulnar deviation allows one to hit through with all their beef with no fear of rolling the face-
"When the left wrist is in this position, the left hand will not check or interrupt the speed with which your clubhead is traveling. There's no danger that the right hand will overpower the left and twist the club over. It can't"
Ben Hogan

[grahler]

I have not seen his video-is there a link?

[dap]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316488066' post='3576061']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316485496' post='3575924']
Eight,thanks for the support.It's good to hear at least one person agreeing with me and coming from you it's an honor.
[/quote]

C'mon now...didn't I agree with you?! When it comes awards time you leave me out?..lol I'm way below eightiron's caliber, but you gotta be fair and just...lmao
[/quote]
oh man I am so sorry......you sure did...i am just a little battle weary from fighting the lone fight lol

[dap]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316422095' post='3573337']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316420823' post='3573332']
You haven't even answered my question.

And you better be able to explain how 20 to 30 open shoulders at impact is going to cancel out 90 degrees of pronation without having to supinate AT ALL.
[/quote]

I don't know if You can open [url="http://teeace.kapsi.fi/dsw.mov"]this[/url], but unfortunately I don't got better quality video to put there....Yes I got 120k studio, but not one cheap video camera

There is absolutely zero rotation of left forearm and the face is about square. Noe You only have to find out how it's done
[/quote]
Grahler,the link is here.Click on the word "this"

[dap]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316488233' post='3576074']
Theory? lol it is a fact that one does not need to roll release man ulnar deviation allows one to hit through with all their beef with no fear of rolling the face-
"When the left wrist is in this position, the left hand will not check or interrupt the speed with which your clubhead is traveling. There's no danger that the right hand will overpower the left and twist the club over. It can't"
Ben Hogan
[/quote]
My point was that you and I and most others will probably never achieves Hogan's pivot so how are you going to achieve his pronationless and supinationless forearms?

[grahler]

Ouch-not what I see with my own club lol