Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1316451440' post='3574037']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316450929' post='3574017']

I am not talking about standing still with the shoulders square.I just wanna know how rotated shoulders 20 deg open at impact is going to cancel out all that forearm pronation made in the backswing.How open the hips are is irrelevent.The last I checked.the arms are connected to the shoulders not the hips.

How about we ask some real experts in anatomy?Sure I could wrong but I doubt it.Common sense,a good eye and logic quite often prevails.
[/quote]

But don't forget that Hogan played the ball pretty far forward on the arc. If he supinated the left arm on the way down to get back to "square" he would have smothered one straight left of left. He also had a bent right arm. YOu said earlier that the right supinates on the way back. It does, but it looks supinated to me at impact. So how could the left independantly supinate without the right on the way down? It is an illusion. The arms are in a different time and space in relation to his body than where they began. That is what common sense tells me.

But its no problem, we will have to agree to disagree.
[/quote]

Yes he put ball forward, but he also put the cog/hips forward during BS-transition-DS (wherever as long as before impact...lol) So, what does that add up to EJ?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1316456622' post='3574297']
This thread is quickly running off the rails. You don't need to be a PHD to be able to pick up an anatomy book and look up "supination." It's high school or college freshmen level anatomy and physiology. lol
[/quote]

I think I have get more detailed and specified anatomy education for movements in swing in this six years from those experts, than any university can ever give.

But when people are out of real arguments, this starts. And people who nows something fades away. Think about how many of them are already gone.

[JD3]

This thread is a farce. Started on flawed premise Snead was a privileged source for Hogan technique info and went downhill from there.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316436166' post='3573510']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316435375' post='3573491']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316431734' post='3573419']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316431119' post='3573414']
Even if it's square at impact,[b] you actually rolled/supinated during the UD move. [/b]

I quoted the most important post all-time and it just got out the other ear...What eightiron said is exactly what lake said..eight can read...mainly because his vocabulary's spectacular...lol
[/quote]

Not even a bit. My left arm relative to the shoulder line and torso didn't change any.

Try to find it, it's out there somewhere.
[/quote]

That's not PA#3 Tee, that's PA#4. I'm talking about the supination/roll of whole left arm, in your case the left hand.

The back of your left hand went from sort of facing the sky more at P4/P5, going to sort of facing the camera more at P6, then you hold it. Exactly as lake/8 said. That's supination, correct? Hogan said supination happens from P6 to P7 to P7.5.

C'mon Teeace... that's what I found. Can't find what you're alluding to...enlighten us...
[/quote]

You make the common mistake by checking things against background when should be checked relative to the other body parts. Everething is moving everywhere and that's the confusing part. For example front shoulder has rotated about 90 degrees at that period, even the shoulder line has turned only about 55-60. And the left arm is only connected to left shoulder. And that shoulder also moves up, not only around.

The other parts that are changing the direction of the back of the hand is little PF and UD. But for sure my left arm hasn't rotated a bit. All the changes in it's position has been made by other movements of the body. Pity I can't show it to anyone IRL. When once demonstrated live, it's so clear after that.
[/quote]

I was referring to your action when you made the UD move in your video. During your UD move, nothing else is moving except your wrists (and right arm following of course). During that UD move of left wrist, your left hand actually turned/rotated while uncccking.

And it SHOULD be, otherwise you will not hit the ball at all...lol Actually you'll hit towards the camera because right before UD move, you back of left hand is parallel to the plane towards way outside of the ball or towards the camera tripod...lol

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1316457122' post='3574346']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316455691' post='3574221']
ej002,I did look at the pic in post 351 and that pretty much proves what I am saying.

I don't understand at all why you say the right palm has to face the ground to be supinated.It has supinated back to square from a pronated position in the backswing.You can see still see the inside of the right elbow which perhaps gives the illusion that the right forearm has not supinated but I have pointed out the right elbow doesn't have to move to rotate the forearm.
[/quote]


And that is the disconnect. In that picture the wrist is palmer flexed (i.e. bent backward). While the right forearm is supinated (belly up). IT is a function of how bent the right arm is also. If the right arm fully pronated back to neutral and the wrist was bent back all the way the club would be way up in the air! The only way to have that right palm bent back like that and to have the right elbow still bent is to have the belly of the forearm up. That is supination. That is different than if the arm was straight, back to neutral and the wrist was pointing at the ground.

So all Tee is saying is the right arm can open up. Stay open on the downswing, and all that has to happen is the wrist bends back (and at the same time the left wrist UDs).

Hogan has the most bent right arm I ever saw. That is what the difference is. That is why the right arm has to be so supinated at impact (at least to hit it straight).

the Reason the right arm looks like it is back to neutral is because the upper humerous is rotated forward. It the arm is not extending 90* out from the body, but at an angle to meet the left arm. If you supnate your right arm all the way (while it is straight out from you) the belly of the arm is up, all you have to do from tehre is move the right hand toward teh left. Do this in the mirror. The right forearm did not pronate to get there, but it looks like it did.
[/quote]
I don't follow this at all.You say the right arm stays open on the downswing but then say it has to be supinated at impact to hit it straight.Isn't that a contradiction?

[dap]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316457988' post='3574407']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316436166' post='3573510']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316435375' post='3573491']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316431734' post='3573419']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316431119' post='3573414']
Even if it's square at impact,[b] you actually rolled/supinated during the UD move. [/b]

I quoted the most important post all-time and it just got out the other ear...What eightiron said is exactly what lake said..eight can read...mainly because his vocabulary's spectacular...lol
[/quote]

Not even a bit. My left arm relative to the shoulder line and torso didn't change any.

Try to find it, it's out there somewhere.
[/quote]

That's not PA#3 Tee, that's PA#4. I'm talking about the supination/roll of whole left arm, in your case the left hand.

The back of your left hand went from sort of facing the sky more at P4/P5, going to sort of facing the camera more at P6, then you hold it. Exactly as lake/8 said. That's supination, correct? Hogan said supination happens from P6 to P7 to P7.5.

C'mon Teeace... that's what I found. Can't find what you're alluding to...enlighten us...
[/quote]

You make the common mistake by checking things against background when should be checked relative to the other body parts. Everething is moving everywhere and that's the confusing part. For example front shoulder has rotated about 90 degrees at that period, even the shoulder line has turned only about 55-60. And the left arm is only connected to left shoulder. And that shoulder also moves up, not only around.

The other parts that are changing the direction of the back of the hand is little PF and UD. But for sure my left arm hasn't rotated a bit. All the changes in it's position has been made by other movements of the body. Pity I can't show it to anyone IRL. When once demonstrated live, it's so clear after that.
[/quote]

I was referring to your action when you made the UD move in your video. During your UD move, nothing else is moving except your wrists (and right arm following of course). During that UD move of left wrist, your left hand actually turned/rotated while uncccking.

And it SHOULD be, otherwise you will not hit the ball at all...lol Actually you'll hit towards the camera because right before UD move, you back of left hand is parallel to the plane towards way outside of the ball or towards the camera tripod...lol
[/quote]
101,Tee is not going to admit to supinating.Don't waste your time.

[ej002]

Open right arm = supinated right arm. Same thing. Not a contractition at all. Rotating thumbs outward is supination (aka palm up).

Like I said, I mean no disrespect to anyone out there. I am trying my best to just explain the movement, but I guess it is not coming across correctly.

[dap]

Well the palm is not up at impact in that pic.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316457988' post='3574407']
[
I was referring to your action when you made the UD move in your video. During your UD move, nothing else is moving except your wrists (and right arm following of course). During that UD move of left wrist, your left hand actually turned/rotated while uncccking.


[/quote]

I made the video and I know exactly what happened to my arm there. You know, it's connected to me IRL, and not over internet. I was very careful that I didn't rotate it a bit, because if it would, whole video wouldn't have any meaning.

[grahler]

This is so simple guys it is eliminating moving parts

[dap]

ej002,I think you are trying to complicate matters to try and fit this theory.

The left forearm pronates and the right forearm supinates on the backswing.To get back to square at impact,the left forearm supinates and the right forearm pronates on the downswing.It just depends whether this happens early or late in the downswing.It's as simple as that.What looks like duck and quacks like duck is a duck.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316458508' post='3574455']
This is so simple guys it is eliminating moving parts
[/quote]

Yes it does. Supination rolls face closed and get's timing more difficult. How could Hogan who fighter a hook do something like that. For sure he did everything to avoid the face closing.

[dap]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316458508' post='3574455']
This is so simple guys it is eliminating moving parts
[/quote]
I don't think Hogan eliminated moving parts to much extent.All he did was assist his forearm rotation with his pivot more than most other players.

[ej002]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316458394' post='3574444']
Well the palm is not up at impact in that pic.
[/quote]

...but if it wasn't palmer flexed (bent back), it would be. What if intead of hitting a golf ball in that pick he was punching someone? The palm would be up, and the forearm would be in the SAME position. It would still be supinated. Wrist movements and forearm movements are independant of each other.

You cannot have a neutral right forearm (not supinated or pronated), the palm bent back, and the right elbow bent and hit a golf ball. It is a physical impossibility.

[ej002]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316458742' post='3574469']
ej002,I think you are trying to complicate matters to try and fit this theory.

The left forearm pronates and the right forearm supinates on the backswing.To get back to square at impact,the left forearm supinates and the right forearm pronates on the downswing.It just depends whether this happens early or late in the downswing.It's as simple as that.What looks like duck and quacks like duck is a duck.
[/quote]


The right arm does not pronate on the downswing. That is what we are saying. It only does a bit as a result of the arm straightening. If it was 90* bent at impact, it would be 90* pronated. It is simple as that.

The only instance where it would return to neutral is if the arms were straight.

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1316459624' post='3574539']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316458742' post='3574469']
ej002,I think you are trying to complicate matters to try and fit this theory.

The left forearm pronates and the right forearm supinates on the backswing.To get back to square at impact,the left forearm supinates and the right forearm pronates on the downswing.It just depends whether this happens early or late in the downswing.It's as simple as that.What looks like duck and quacks like duck is a duck.
[/quote]


The right arm does not pronate on the downswing. That is what we are saying. It only does a bit as a result of the arm straightening. If it was 90* bent at impact, it would be 90* pronated. It is simple as that.

The only instance where it would return to neutral is if the arms were straight.
[/quote]
You say the right doesn't pronate but then you say only a bit.How much is that bit?Perhaps it's more than you think.

[dap]

What has the arms straight or bent got to do with pronation or supination?I can rotate my forearms with my arms bent or straight.

[ej002]

It depends on how straight the elbow is and how palmer flexed the right wrist is. But it is pretty open. There is a lot more going on that open and closing of a forearm. There are 3 other joints that work together.

This is pointless, we are getting nowhere fast.

[grahler]

Dap. You owe it to yourself to experiment with a club very slowly it sounds like you are saying this move is somehow not possible I think if you try you will see the advantage

[grahler]

You wanna hit hard from right hand with no fear of big hook it sure makes sense

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1316460745' post='3574609']
It depends on how straight the elbow is and how palmer flexed the right wrist is. But it is pretty open. There is a lot more going on that open and closing of a forearm. There are 3 other joints that work together.

This is pointless, we are getting nowhere fast.
[/quote]
You are right there.TeeAce is starting to get personal.Why does he need me to agree with him that much?Does my opinion mean that much to him?lol

He could have agreed to disagree many pages ago.

[dap]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316460749' post='3574610']
Dap. You owe it to yourself to experiment with a club very slowly it sounds like you are saying this move is somehow not possible I think if you try you will see the advantage
[/quote]

I don't think I am the only one.I am just representing the silent majority here.It's really only you and ej that is carrying the flag.lol

[ej002]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316460946' post='3574625']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1316460745' post='3574609']
It depends on how straight the elbow is and how palmer flexed the right wrist is. But it is pretty open. There is a lot more going on that open and closing of a forearm. There are 3 other joints that work together.

This is pointless, we are getting nowhere fast.
[/quote]
You are right there.TeeAce is starting to get personal.Why does he need me to agree with him that much?Does my opinion mean that much to him?lol

He could have agreed to disagree many pages ago.
[/quote]


I think he is frustrated (as am I a little), that the message is not translating. From my perspective, the questions you guys are ask indicates (to me) that you are not getting what we are trying to say. If we are all outside on the range and can show each other, this probably would be avoided.

I agree with what you are saying, but there is another possibility to shut the face without rolling/closing the forearms. I don't think it about you agreeing with anyone or who is right. At least not for me. I would be happy with a "I see what you mean" but "that not Hogan".

[dap]

ej,you think I am not a little frustrated myself LOL

but lets keep it in perspective here...why get personal over a golf discussion?

I am always happy to agree to disagree but some people are not.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316461284' post='3574651']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316460749' post='3574610']
Dap. You owe it to yourself to experiment with a club very slowly it sounds like you are saying this move is somehow not possible I think if you try you will see the advantage
[/quote]

I don't think I am the only one.I am just representing the silent majority here.It's really only you and ej that is carrying the flag.lol
[/quote]

We had this kind of situation in one finnish forums about of the same thing few months ago. There were two guys who couldn't' (didn't) want to understand the whole cue even when lots of others tried to explain it to them. Another of those guys was just like You and also he didn't know the right definition for supination. I wonder if there could be two guys in the world using just same arguments time after time without even want to try and understand. Same arguments... same kind level of misunderstanding about basics like You.

He also talked about silence majority who understands how front I was. Strange majority, because everyone was against him and no one ever on his side. I feel like back home..

[ej002]

Agreed, no need to get worked up. But I dont think me or grahler - who have no ties to this - would be wasting our time if we didnt think it was worth everyone's worthwhile.

If I had capabilities I would do a video.

[moehogan]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316459983' post='3574555']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1316459624' post='3574539']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316458742' post='3574469']
ej002,I think you are trying to complicate matters to try and fit this theory.

The left forearm pronates and the right forearm supinates on the backswing.To get back to square at impact,the left forearm supinates and the right forearm pronates on the downswing.It just depends whether this happens early or late in the downswing.It's as simple as that.What looks like duck and quacks like duck is a duck.
[/quote]


The right arm does not pronate on the downswing. That is what we are saying. It only does a bit as a result of the arm straightening. If it was 90* bent at impact, it would be 90* pronated. It is simple as that.

The only instance where it would return to neutral is if the arms were straight.
[/quote]
You say the right doesn't pronate but then you say only a bit.How much is that bit?Perhaps it's more than you think.
[/quote]
The rotational forces of the pivot cause the left arm to want to supinate and the right arm to pronate on the DS ... flyout and crossover result from dragging dead, passive hands through impact. Sit in a desk chair and swivel back and forth from side to side with limp arms and see how they react.

That's why Sam said the right hand was the fix. Let the pivot try to supinate the left arm/hand but use the right hand, trying to hold it's supination, as a check rein. But once you engage the right hand, you will need to engage the left as a counter check rein ... both hands with the pivot powering the CP release.

But I think you gotta know how to do it with grip pressures and hand action!

[TeeAce]

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1316462671' post='3574730']
[
The rotational forces of the pivot cause the left arm to want to supinate and the right arm to pronate on the DS ... flyout and crossover result from dragging dead, passive hands through impact. Sit in a desk chair and swivel back and forth from side to side with limp arms and see how they react.

That's why Sam said the right hand was the fix. Let the pivot try to supinate the left arm/hand but use the right hand, trying to hold it's supination, as a check rein. But once you engage the right hand, you will need to engage the left as a counter check rein ... both hands with the pivot powering the CP release.

But I think you gotta know how to do it with grip pressures and hand action!
[/quote]

You got it just right and modification of the golf club still increases the effect. And there is lot of actions at inner circle and middle that wants to throw ch out.

[grahler]

I admit feeling frustrated at the seeming lack of admission that this move is possible. Experimenting with a club will reveal what is true IMO.
Once you see how than you see how advantageous this method is in terms of power and accuracy due to clubface control

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316458977' post='3574493']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316458508' post='3574455']
This is so simple guys it is eliminating moving parts
[/quote]
I don't think Hogan eliminated moving parts to much extent.All he did was assist his forearm rotation with his pivot more than most other players.
[/quote]

As far as being possible to get enough auto-supination on the DS, hasn't this question been answered by slicefixer? Doesn't he teach an active roll of the clubface into the plane on the BS, and no deliberate roll at all in the pivot-only DS?