Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[hoganfan924]

As I already posted before, this is what is in 5L, directly quoted:

During this climactic part of the swing, the left wrist and the back of the left hand begin to supinate very slightly—that is, [b]to turn from a position where the palm is down to a position where the palm is up. [/b]

That is the correct anatomical definition of supination. So Hogan understood the term and used it correctly. He did create considerable confusion in other parts of the text by introducing the "raised left wrist bone" picture and not calling it palmar flexion, but if you think about it, this may have been completely intentional. I read it as him wanting the golfer to focus on intentionally creating supination and that palmar flexion of the left hand would be a result of the supination. It TGM lingo, horizontal hinging would prevent a flip.

Not that in the illustration on pg. 103 of the hacker who is "pronating," his clubface is wide open, which is consistent with that golfer pronating the left hand, again the correct anatomical definition of turning the palm dowm.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1316355826' post='3571689']
As I already posted before, this is what is in 5L, directly quoted:

During this climactic part of the swing, the left wrist and the back of the left hand begin to supinate very slightly—that is, [b]to turn from a position where the palm is down to a position where the palm is up. [/b]

That is the correct anatomical definition of supination. So Hogan understood the term and used it correctly. He did create considerable confusion in other parts of the text by introducing the "raised left wrist bone" picture and not calling it palmar flexion, but if you think about it, this may have been completely intentional. I read it as him wanting the golfer to focus on intentionally creating supination and that palmar flexion of the left hand would be a result of the supination. It TGM lingo, horizontal hinging would prevent a flip.

Not that in the illustration on pg. 103 of the hacker who is "pronating," his clubface is wide open, which is consistent with that golfer pronating the left hand, again the correct anatomical definition of turning the palm dowm.
[/quote]

How this can be so difficult. He used it wrong way and many are stacked for that.

Unfortunately there is something wrong with my iPhone video so the links are not working.

Once more: flipping or delofting got nothing to do with supination. Golow just told You even the reason they went wrong with that.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316356120' post='3571702']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1316355826' post='3571689']
As I already posted before, this is what is in 5L, directly quoted:

During this climactic part of the swing, the left wrist and the back of the left hand begin to supinate very slightly—that is, [b]to turn from a position where the palm is down to a position where the palm is up. [/b]

That is the correct anatomical definition of supination. So Hogan understood the term and used it correctly. He did create considerable confusion in other parts of the text by introducing the "raised left wrist bone" picture and not calling it palmar flexion, but if you think about it, this may have been completely intentional. I read it as him wanting the golfer to focus on intentionally creating supination and that palmar flexion of the left hand would be a result of the supination. It TGM lingo, horizontal hinging would prevent a flip.

Not that in the illustration on pg. 103 of the hacker who is "pronating," his clubface is wide open, which is consistent with that golfer pronating the left hand, again the correct anatomical definition of turning the palm dowm.
[/quote]

How this can be so difficult. He used it wrong way and many are stacked for that.

Unfortunately there is something wrong with my iPhone video so the links are not working.

Once more: flipping or delofting got nothing to do with supination. Golow just told You even the reason they went wrong with that.
[/quote]

Indeed, how can this be so difficult? From Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Supination
: rotation of the forearm [b]and hand so that the palm faces forward or upward[/b]; also : a corresponding movement of the foot and leg in which the foot rolls outward with an elevated arch

Hogan in 5L:

to turn from a position where the palm is down to a position where the palm is up.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1316356706' post='3571715']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316356120' post='3571702']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1316355826' post='3571689']
As I already posted before, this is what is in 5L, directly quoted:

During this climactic part of the swing, the left wrist and the back of the left hand begin to supinate very slightly—that is, [b]to turn from a position where the palm is down to a position where the palm is up. [/b]

That is the correct anatomical definition of supination. So Hogan understood the term and used it correctly. He did create considerable confusion in other parts of the text by introducing the "raised left wrist bone" picture and not calling it palmar flexion, but if you think about it, this may have been completely intentional. I read it as him wanting the golfer to focus on intentionally creating supination and that palmar flexion of the left hand would be a result of the supination. It TGM lingo, horizontal hinging would prevent a flip.

Not that in the illustration on pg. 103 of the hacker who is "pronating," his clubface is wide open, which is consistent with that golfer pronating the left hand, again the correct anatomical definition of turning the palm dowm.
[/quote]

How this can be so difficult. He used it wrong way and many are stacked for that.

Unfortunately there is something wrong with my iPhone video so the links are not working.

Once more: flipping or delofting got nothing to do with supination. Golow just told You even the reason they went wrong with that.
[/quote]

Indeed, how can this be so difficult? From Merriam-Webster dictionary:

Supination
: rotation of the forearm [b]and hand so that the palm faces forward or upward[/b]; also : a corresponding movement of the foot and leg in which the foot rolls outward with an elevated arch

Hogan in 5L:

to turn from a position where the palm is down to a position where the palm is up.
[/quote]

Because You can turn palm facing up two ways, by rotating and twisting. That made the mistake. In the picture there is no marks of any supination and even the wroten description, specially with the explanation and picture of pronation tells clearly he used worn words.

If he would say about supination, he would say when the palm is facing in and when the palm is facing out.

[3righthands]

Can your pivot make the arm/wrist/hand supinate or pronate?

In other words, if you keep your forearm bones perpendicular to the swing plane, they change their orientation to the ground, but not through independent arm motion.

[dap]

I just wanna know what Hogan's doing.

Who here has figured Hogan's wrist thingy spot on?

[golow]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1316355673' post='3571686']
Your username is copyrighted/trademarked?!..lol
[/quote]

Goes back to GEA days - another guy named golow14 (funny that that was my number for 25 years in soccer and his name is Jeff - he spells it the plebeian way). I added the (TM) to rib him and it stuck.

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1316354361' post='3571647']
Bananas ..... [b]you gotta sniff his pivot first[/b] , right ?
[/quote]

I think this a vocabulary and anatomy sidetrack everybody knows hiss pivot is the key to his legend ... but I like the username of 3righthands ... pivot leads the hands but it's his right hand underhand delivery that I think is his feel key. It's mine (lately).

golow(TM)

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1316355826' post='3571689']
As I already posted before, this is what is in 5L, directly quoted:

During this climactic part of the swing, the left wrist and the back of the left hand begin to supinate very slightly—that is, [b]to turn from a position where the palm is down to a position where the palm is up. [/b]

That is the correct anatomical definition of supination. So Hogan understood the term and used it correctly. He did create considerable confusion in other parts of the text by introducing the "raised left wrist bone" picture and not calling it palmar flexion, but if you think about it, this may have been completely intentional. I read it as him wanting the golfer to focus on intentionally creating supination and that palmar flexion of the left hand would be a result of the supination. It TGM lingo, horizontal hinging would prevent a flip.

Not that in the illustration on pg. 103 of the hacker who is "pronating," his clubface is wide open, which is consistent with that golfer pronating the left hand, again the correct anatomical definition of turning the palm dowm.
[/quote]

I can even imagine guy calling to anatomical expert by phone and ask how is the move You described calling. The expert lifts his arm parallel to the ground and rotates the palm facing sky. The answer is supination It changes just a little when You drop Your arm pointing down like in golf swing

But just keep Your mind. It doesn't change my life. I'm still fine when talking with those anatomical experts who use right terms.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316357479' post='3571742']
I just wanna know what Hogan's doing.

Who here has figured Hogan's wrist thingy spot on?
[/quote]

I told You already. When You understand right terms and figure out those movements, You will get Hogans position at impact. After that there is many other moves to learn to complete that, but You have to use Your hands and arms right way.

[grahler]

Wow.

So ulnar deviation term was throwing me off there but if I am understanding UD it is wrist uncocking as in TGM. So now I think I see what Tee is saying right Hogan came in left hand palmar flexed and then with the strong pivot and wrist uncock (ud) he impacted the ball.

Is that what we are talking about?

In other words the ud is the last thing before impact allowing club to go through.? That makes sense to me.
In this manner he can use right hand without twisting club over because it cannot just like he said...

[TeeAce]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316369332' post='3571965']
Wow.

So ulnar deviation term was throwing me off there but if I am understanding UD it is wrist uncocking as in TGM. So now I think I see what Tee is saying right Hogan came in left hand palmar flexed and then with the strong pivot and wrist uncock (ud) he impacted the ball.

Is that what we are talking about?

In other words the ud is the last thing before impact allowing club to go through.? That makes sense to me.
In this manner he can use right hand without twisting club over because it cannot just like he said...
[/quote]

Thank God. Someone saw the light.

More I watch hi-speed videos of good players, less I can see other possibilities for that. Every other move will close the face too much with strong pivot.

[grahler]

LOL. Term ulnar deviation was unfamiliar to me of course thats the way to do it Hogan style.

[moehogan]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316371001' post='3571999']
[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316369332' post='3571965']
Wow.

So ulnar deviation term was throwing me off there but if I am understanding UD it is wrist uncocking as in TGM. So now I think I see what Tee is saying right Hogan came in left hand palmar flexed and then with the strong pivot and wrist uncock (ud) he impacted the ball.

Is that what we are talking about?

In other words the ud is the last thing before impact allowing club to go through.? That makes sense to me.
In this manner he can use right hand without twisting club over because it cannot just like he said...
[/quote]

Thank God. Someone saw the light.

More I watch hi-speed videos of good players, less I can see other possibilities for that. Every other move will close the face too much with strong pivot.
[/quote]
T,

Moving from radial deviation to ulnar deviation with palmarflexion with the left wrist can be done with NO rotation of the left hand/forearm ... the UD raises the wrist bone but does not square the face. If you have pronated the left forearm/hand (loaded PA#3) on the BS, you have to release it. On most shots I think Mr. H released both of these accumulators very close together. No cheap, early speed.

My question is how do you think he regulated the release of PA#3 so the face was where he wanted it for the shot at hand? This is what I think Sam was getting at ... he maybe knew the WHAT, but probably not the HOW. I have made the argument a while back that it MIGHT have been done with hand action ... that's how I have dug it out of the dirt.

I think it is interesting that Mr. H said in Five Lessons that the left wrist "[u][b]BEGINS[/b][/u] to supinate", not "supinates". It doesn't finish supinating in most swings until at least P8 at the earliest. Eventually completing the supination is a given, but he had a leash on it.

mh

[TeeAce]

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1316375516' post='3572108']

I think it is interesting that Mr. H said in Five Lessons that the left wrist "[u][b]BEGINS[/b][/u] to supinate", not "supinates". It doesn't finish supinating in most swings until at least P8 at the earliest. Eventually completing the supination is a given, but he had a leash on it.

mh
[/quote]

He said also that rises wrist bone is indicating that supination. So IMO he said, he didn't know what supination means. And because of that I've seen hundreds of people around who are confusing bowed wrist and supination.

There is no need for rotation of left arm when coming to impact. Rotation of shoulders takes care about it if the ch is delayed and behind Your back enough at that moment. It squares the face... in many cases still too much if You are not able to resist it. There is great thread in one other forum about those moves.

[moehogan]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316376382' post='3572130']
[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1316375516' post='3572108']
I think it is interesting that Mr. H said in Five Lessons that the left wrist "[u][b]BEGINS[/b][/u] to supinate", not "supinates". It doesn't finish supinating in most swings until at least P8 at the earliest. Eventually completing the supination is a given, but he had a leash on it.

mh
[/quote]

He said also that rises wrist bone is indicating that supination. So IMO he said, he didn't know what supination means. And because of that I've seen hundreds of people around who are confusing bowed wrist and supination. [b][i]I agree that Five Lessons could be clearer on that point.[/i][/b]

There is no need for rotation of left arm when coming to impact. Rotation of shoulders takes care about it if the ch is delayed and behind Your back enough at that moment. [b][i]It can, but isn't that[/i] de[/b][b][i]pendent on arm path? Passive hands or "Three right hands" and "Hit hard with both hands"? [/i][/b]It squares the face... in many cases still too much if You are not able to resist it. [b][i]So you do need some sort of governor or limiter, right? [/i][/b]There is great thread in one other forum about those moves.
[/quote]
see bolded italics above - thanks, T!

[eightiron]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316366778' post='3571916']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1316355826' post='3571689']
As I already posted before, this is what is in 5L, directly quoted:

During this climactic part of the swing, the left wrist and the back of the left hand begin to supinate very slightly—that is, [b]to turn from a position where the palm is down to a position where the palm is up. [/b]

That is the correct anatomical definition of supination. So Hogan understood the term and used it correctly. He did create considerable confusion in other parts of the text by introducing the "raised left wrist bone" picture and not calling it palmar flexion, but if you think about it, this may have been completely intentional. I read it as him wanting the golfer to focus on intentionally creating supination and that palmar flexion of the left hand would be a result of the supination. It TGM lingo, horizontal hinging would prevent a flip.

Not that in the illustration on pg. 103 of the hacker who is "pronating," his clubface is wide open, which is consistent with that golfer pronating the left hand, again the correct anatomical definition of turning the palm dowm.
[/quote]

I can even imagine guy calling to anatomical expert by phone and ask how is the move You described calling. The expert lifts his arm parallel to the ground and rotates the palm facing sky. The answer is supination It changes just a little when You drop Your arm pointing down like in golf swing

But just keep Your mind. It doesn't change my life. I'm still fine when talking with those anatomical experts who use right terms.
[/quote]

Well are you sure that you are not twisting the english language to prosecute Hogan ? Its all relative to how a person perceives the "picture" . The palm is still down or up in any sense even with arm on an angle , but I get your other way of defining it " palm facing in and out etc" which is from an anatomical neutral perspective with arms next to the side , however lets nitpick what you stated about your anatomical experts ..... how do you supinate from anatomical neutral ? lol..... you can't because the radio -ulnar joint is in supinated position at neutral
So within the actual way / definition of how to supinate etc, Hogan got it right and the wrist bone raised thing was a side issue that he didn't elaborate on

[grahler]

Dude - Eight so you are trying to say that you can't turn your palm up from "neutral" position relaxed at your side? That doesn't make sense in reality.

[dap]

I think there is something rotten in the state of Denmark here.TeeAce is saying Hogan did not supinate or in others words,roll his forearm counter clockwise coming into impact.

Whilst I agree that Hogan squared the clubface more with his pivot than most other players,it is preposterous to say he did not supinate at all.The fact there is pronation on the backswing means there has to be supination coming down or else how on earth are you going to get back to square?

Lets all stop playing amateur anatomical science here and use a little bit of common sense.I will bet no one posting on this thread will have had any formal training on the subject.Since the advent of the internet and google,everyone is an expert on everything.....not.

[grahler]

So I am visualizing Hogan coming in-left hand palmar flexed-right hand dorsi flexed-at this point the face is open and his lag is just beginning to be released. If his left hand is palmar flexed AND pronated at this point the club would be so far underplane he would miss the ball. Put the club on plane and how much pronation does he really have pre impact?

If he is not pronated excessively he either a never pronated much on backswing or b already rotated back before getting ready to deliver club.

I am not saying I have Hogan figured but palmar flexion going to ud while right hand hits under is what seems like it makes the most sense when looking at his move.

The key force that you cannot forget is the pull coming from the pivot via left shoulder also this is key to him getting handle pointed back towards his body at impact.

The physics of this would be far different from most people who swing the club stall the hands and crossover or those who force the crossover and are plagued with hooks and pulls.

[TeeAce]

I think there is something rotten in the state of Denmark here.TeeAce is saying Hogan did not supinate or in others words,roll his forearm counter clockwise coming into impact.

 

Whilst I agree that Hogan squared the clubface more with his pivot than most other players,it is preposterous to say he did not supinate at all.The fact there is pronation on the backswing means there has to be supination coming down or else how on earth are you going to get back to square?

 

Lets all stop playing amateur anatomical science here and use a little bit of common sense.I will bet no one posting on this thread will have had any formal training on the subject.Since the advent of the internet and google,everyone is an expert on everything.....not.

 

or maybe stop being amateur instructors and researchers also if we can't use right terms even?

 

There is much more dap. Have You even thought at what direction the hands are moving at impact?

 

 

How much it makes difference for everything when realized that they don't move toward the target? They can't.

 

How is it possible to let the left forearm supinate and still have right elbow in? Is it?

 

And look at that left elbow. If he wanter them point to the hips at setup, has it pronated or supinated until impact? Specially if You remember at what direction the hands are moving.

 

Reading 5L is really not enough. You have to understand that book also and that way also find possible mistakes of the book.

[moehogan]

I think there is something rotten in the state of Denmark here.TeeAce is saying Hogan did not supinate or in others words,roll his forearm counter clockwise coming into impact.

 

Whilst I agree that Hogan squared the clubface more with his pivot than most other players,it is preposterous to say he did not supinate at all.The fact there is pronation on the backswing means there has to be supination coming down or else how on earth are you going to get back to square?

 

Lets all stop playing amateur anatomical science here and use a little bit of common sense.I will bet no one posting on this thread will have had any formal training on the subject.Since the advent of the internet and google,everyone is an expert on everything.....not.

 

or maybe stop being amateur instructors and researchers also if we can't use right terms even?

 

There is much more dap. Have You even thought at what direction the hands are moving at impact?

 

 

How much it makes difference for everything when realized that they don't move toward the target? They can't.

 

How is it possible to let the left forearm supinate and still have right elbow in? Is it?

 

And look at that left elbow. If he wanter them point to the hips at setup, has it pronated or supinated until impact? Specially if You remember at what direction the hands are moving.

 

Reading 5L is really not enough. You have to understand that book also and that way also find possible mistakes of the book.

Hands are twisting opposite directions ... away from each other on the top of the handle. They cancel each other out and create a neutral, stable club face. Hit it as hard as you want with that!

 

Good night.

[grahler]

It's so obvious how there's no left forearm roll to square the face. Face control-key to accuracy.

[dap]

TeeAce,you haven't even addressed my point.There is pronation of the left forearm in the backswing no?In the the case Hogan what with his opening up of the arm shoulder triangle in the early downswing,he pronates his forearms even more than most players.If he doesn't supinate coming into imapact,how the heck is he gonna square back the face???Simple,simple concept....and I haven't even used one big word.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316417284' post='3573301']
TeeAce,you haven't even addressed my point.There is pronation of the left forearm in the backswing no?In the the case Hogan what with his opening up of the arm shoulder triangle in the early downswing,he pronates his forearms even more than most players.If he doesn't supinate coming into imapact,how the heck is he gonna square back the face???Simple,simple concept....and I haven't even used one big word.
[/quote]

Pronating his arms? How could he pronate both of those?

Look at the picture of impact. Left arm is still more pronated than it was at address. The left elbow pointing out and even more relative to the hands moving direction.

It's complicated to understand, but first part of squaring is the shoulder line. It's about 25-30 deg open so it makes same amount of closing it. Also when You see open club face when it's higher than hands, it's not that much open when You drop it down by UD. That is one part of closing it. Third part is that he didn't want it to square or closing. He wanted it to stay open. And open relative to what? Open relative to the direction where hands are moving and they didn't move toward the target. They moved about 30 degrees tot the left at impact and that's a lot.

When You once can put together all those movements You start to be near deep understanding. If one piece is missing, it doesn't work

[dap]

TeeAce,don't confuse matters.Did Hogan PRONATE his LEFT FOREARM during the backswing and perhaps increased it during the transition to facilitate his lay off move?A simple yes or no will do.

[dap]

And there is no way shoulder rotation is going to cancel out 90 degrees or more of left forearm pronation during the backswing.

Yes,Hogan did use his roation so that he didn't need as much supination as most players but supinate he did.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316419384' post='3573320']
And there is no way shoulder rotation is going to cancel out 90 degrees or more of left forearm pronation during the backswing.

Yes,Hogan did use his roation so that he didn't need as much supination as most players but supinate he did.
[/quote]

Just look at that picture I posted. You can see it with Your own eyes that he didn't.

I don't know how You think that, but I got no problem to get the blade square without any supination in left arm. You have to miss some piece there. My forearm stays exactly at same rotation relative to the body after half way down, and until that I have made only pronation with that.

Like I said, when You once find all the pieces You will understand it. Until then... no way.

[dap]

You haven't even answered my question.

And you better be able to explain how 20 to 30 open shoulders at impact is going to cancel out 90 degrees of pronation without having to supinate AT ALL.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316420823' post='3573332']
You haven't even answered my question.

And you better be able to explain how 20 to 30 open shoulders at impact is going to cancel out 90 degrees of pronation without having to supinate AT ALL.
[/quote]

I don't know if You can open [url="http://teeace.kapsi.fi/dsw.mov"]this[/url], but unfortunately I don't got better quality video to put there....Yes I got 120k studio, but not one cheap video camera

There is absolutely zero rotation of left forearm and the face is about square. Noe You only have to find out how it's done

[dap]

Yes,I can see it thanks.

That is not a real swing and Hogan doesn't UD early like that.The most of important thing is the clubface is not square.It is at least 30 degrees open.Supinate your left forearm another 30 degrees and it will be square.That pretty much sums it up.