Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1316447150' post='3573852']
I agree nobody does that when they swing, it was a demonstration. 30* is probably exagerated. Either way, I think you guys are both taking a hard line. I dont understand it, but if you do what he did in the video, there is no active arm supination and the face comes lose to square. You also have to realize that Teeace said the grip is stronger than what most think. It appears weak b/c of the high hands at set up. So I think this (stronger grip) will also account for some of the face closure.

Regardless of his demonstration, it actually does work. Really the ulnar deviation happens last, the club just falls late. But the point is there is minimal, if any, supination. I think whan you do the ulnar deviation, the wrist bones and the muscles in the forarm have to change, causing a bit of supination (as least when the forearm is on the inclined plane). Try Teeace's demonstration the opposite way, drop the wrist last. Same thing.
[/quote]
If you are going to demonstrate at least do it close to what is going to happen in a real swing otherwise how is that going to be representative.

Look,TeeAce has not refuted that pronation of the left forearm happens in the backswing and in the case of Hogan,quite a bit of pronation due to his flat plane particularly in the transition.It is simple logic that supination has to happen if the face is to get back to square.Now the argument is that the shoulders will square it up but TeeAce is going to have to prove that 20 deg open shoulders at impact is going to cancel out 90 deg of pronation without any supination at all.He didn't do that in the demonstration.HG101 pointed out quite correctly he cheated by supinating as he uncocked his wrists.

[dap]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316447515' post='3573867']
The layoff move is dorsiflexion of right and Palmar flex left.
I think you guys ought to open your mind to tees explanation. LOL
Hogans problem had nothing to do with squaring face. Its so simple in real life not even arguable IMO.
[/quote]
You can do whatever you want with the right arm but if you don't pronate the left forearm you will not lay it off.

Yes Hogan did not have a problem squaring the face.That's why he weakened his grip.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

you dont even need a hand or a humerus or a body or forearm muscles to supinate, just the 2 bones, if the bottom of the forearm rotates relative to the top of the forearm, either pronation or supination has occurred, in hogans case supination, as he said.

[ej002]

I agree with your logic when I am standing still. But why should I assume your simple explanation works in the swing? For the same reason that you are telling Tee he is wrong, you are wrong. It is not as simple as you make it sound. It all relates together with what is going on with the entire swing. Dont forget physics plays a roll on what happens to the arms also.

IMO the disconnect is here. You are assuming Hogan sets up in an impact position. He doesnt. You agreed that Hogan's shoulders are 20* open at impact (I think his hips are like 40* open). If you set up like HOgan and rotate that much, the face would close by that much. How did he offset this?

Set up like Hogan then get into an impact position. If the hands stay in front of the belly (as they were at set up),the club will be 2 feet infront of the ball and up the plane, face would be shut. But the hands are not that far forward at impact, the left arm is more across the chest (ie more behind than where they started at impact). It has to be because the right shoulder drops and teh left shoulder opens. The only way to keep the club from being way up plane like this is to have the left arm pronated in relation to the body. But, which happens to be square in relation to the ball.

So from camera view, it looks like supination. In relation to the body, that did not happen. The arms are more behind and open.

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1316450280' post='3573989']
I agree with your logic when I am standing still. But why should I assume your simple explanation works in the swing? For the same reason that you are telling Tee he is wrong, you are wrong. It is not as simple as you make it sound. It all relates together with what is going on with the entire swing. Dont forget physics plays a roll on what happens to the arms also. You are assuming Hogan sets up in an impact position. He doesnt. You agreed that Hogan's shoulders are 20* open at impact (I think his hips are like 40* open). If you set up like HOgan an rotate into that much, the face would close by that much. How did he offset this?

Set up like Hogan then get into an impact position. If the hands stay in front of the belly (as they were at set up),the club will be 2 feet infront of the ball and up the plane, face would be shut. But the hands are not that far forward at impact, the left arm is more across the chest (ie more behind than where they started at impact). It has to be because the right shoulder drops and teh left shoulder opens. The only way to keep the club from being way up plane like this is to have the left arm pronated in relation to the body. But, which happens to be square in relation to the ball.

So from camera view, it looks like supination. In relation to the body, that did not happen. The arms are more behind and open.
[/quote]
I am not talking about standing still with the shoulders square.I just wanna know how rotated shoulders 20 deg open at impact is going to cancel out all that forearm pronation made in the backswing.How open the hips are is irrelevent.The last I checked.the arms are connected to the shoulders not the hips.

How about we ask some real experts in anatomy?Sure I could wrong but I doubt it.Common sense,a good eye and logic quite often prevails.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1316450280' post='3573989']
I agree with your logic when I am standing still. But why should I assume your simple explanation works in the swing? For the same reason that you are telling Tee he is wrong, you are wrong. It is not as simple as you make it sound. It all relates together with what is going on with the entire swing. [b]Dont forget physics plays a roll on what happens to the arms also[/b]. You are assuming Hogan sets up in an impact position. He doesnt. You agreed that Hogan's shoulders are 20* open at impact (I think his hips are like 40* open). If you set up like HOgan an rotate into that much, the face would close by that much. How did he offset this?

Set up like Hogan then get into an impact position. If the hands stay in front of the belly (as they were at set up),the club will be 2 feet infront of the ball and up the plane, face would be shut. But the hands are not that far forward at impact, the left arm is more across the chest (ie more behind than where they started at impact). It has to be because the right shoulder drops and teh left shoulder opens. The only way to keep the club from being way up plane like this is to have the left arm pronated in relation to the body. But, which happens to be square in relation to the ball.

So from camera view, it looks like supination. In relation to the body, that did not happen. The arms are more behind and open.
[/quote]

What I bolded is an important point. I don't have time now to get into the details of the physics, but when you deliver the club from a laid off/inside position, there is a CCW torque about the longitudinal axis of the left arm that contributes to squaring the face, the opposite for the typical "OTT" swing.

Also, in the backswing, the left arm automatically pronates (my guesstimate is about 45 degrees) simply by the action of bending the right elbow to a 90 deg. angle. If you partially straighten that right arm before impact (Hogan did slightly) it will also supinate the left arm automatically. Add in the shoulders open at impact and those factors can square the face without you having to make a conscious muscular effort to supinate the left arm. Hogan supinated, but it was "automatic" as a result of these three factors, it was not a forced action, IMO. Maybe that's why later in life he said "forget about that supination business."

[ej002]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316450929' post='3574017']

I am not talking about standing still with the shoulders square.I just wanna know how rotated shoulders 20 deg open at impact is going to cancel out all that forearm pronation made in the backswing.How open the hips are is irrelevent.The last I checked.the arms are connected to the shoulders not the hips.

How about we ask some real experts in anatomy?Sure I could wrong but I doubt it.Common sense,a good eye and logic quite often prevails.
[/quote]

But don't forget that Hogan played the ball pretty far forward on the arc. If he supinated the left arm on the way down to get back to "square" he would have smothered one straight left of left. He also had a bent right arm. YOu said earlier that the right supinates on the way back. It does, but it looks supinated to me at impact. So how could the left independantly supinate without the right on the way down? It is an illusion. The arms are in a different time and space in relation to his body than where they began. That is what common sense tells me.

But its no problem, we will have to agree to disagree.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316450929' post='3574017']
[
I am not talking about standing still with the shoulders square.I just wanna know how rotated shoulders 20 deg open at impact is going to cancel out all that forearm pronation made in the backswing.How open the hips are is irrelevent.The last I checked.the arms are connected to the shoulders not the hips.

How about we ask some real experts in anatomy?Sure I could wrong but I doubt it.Common sense,a good eye and logic quite often prevails.
[/quote]

The left shoulder rotates about 90 degrees in my demonstration. That is also quite hard to see without understanding that shoulder line is not what to look at.

You point out all the time most irrelevant things in my demonstration like timing, which has nothing to do with that. If You really want to understand Hogans moves, put it all to pieces and then try to put them back together again. The problem is that now You are missing lot of those pieces and You can't get the puzzle done

[dap]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316451490' post='3574038']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316450929' post='3574017']
[
I am not talking about standing still with the shoulders square.I just wanna know how rotated shoulders 20 deg open at impact is going to cancel out all that forearm pronation made in the backswing.How open the hips are is irrelevent.The last I checked.the arms are connected to the shoulders not the hips.

How about we ask some real experts in anatomy?Sure I could wrong but I doubt it.Common sense,a good eye and logic quite often prevails.
[/quote]

The left shoulder rotates about 90 degrees in my demonstration. That is also quite hard to see without understanding that shoulder line is not what to look at.

You point out all the time most irrelevant things in my demonstration like timing, which has nothing to do with that. If You really want to understand Hogans moves, put it all to pieces and then try to put them back together again. The problem is that now You are missing lot of those pieces and You can't get the puzzle done
[/quote]
Point out irrelevant things?Like how you supinate as you uncock your wrists?How is that irrelevent since the whole discussion is based on your supinationless downswing?

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1316451440' post='3574037']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316450929' post='3574017']

I am not talking about standing still with the shoulders square.I just wanna know how rotated shoulders 20 deg open at impact is going to cancel out all that forearm pronation made in the backswing.How open the hips are is irrelevent.The last I checked.the arms are connected to the shoulders not the hips.

How about we ask some real experts in anatomy?Sure I could wrong but I doubt it.Common sense,a good eye and logic quite often prevails.
[/quote]

But don't forget that Hogan played the ball pretty far forward on the arc. If he supinated the left arm on the way down to get back to "square" he would have smothered one straight left of left. He also had a bent right arm. YOu said earlier that the right supinates on the way back. It does, but it looks supinated to me at impact. So how could the left independantly supinate without the right on the way down? It is an illusion. The arms are in a different time and space in relation to his body than where they began. That is what common sense tells me.

But its no problem, we will have to agree to disagree.
[/quote]
Hogan did not play the ball that far forward.Most of the videos show his ball position is pretty standard.

Who said the right doesn't supinate.Just because you can see the inside of the right elbow late in the downswing doesn't mean it hasn't supinated.I can hold my right elbow motionless and still supinate my hand 180 deg.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316451958' post='3574056']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316451490' post='3574038']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316450929' post='3574017']
[
I am not talking about standing still with the shoulders square.I just wanna know how rotated shoulders 20 deg open at impact is going to cancel out all that forearm pronation made in the backswing.How open the hips are is irrelevent.The last I checked.the arms are connected to the shoulders not the hips.

How about we ask some real experts in anatomy?Sure I could wrong but I doubt it.Common sense,a good eye and logic quite often prevails.
[/quote]

The left shoulder rotates about 90 degrees in my demonstration. That is also quite hard to see without understanding that shoulder line is not what to look at.

You point out all the time most irrelevant things in my demonstration [b]like timing[/b], which has nothing to do with that. If You really want to understand Hogans moves, put it all to pieces and then try to put them back together again. The problem is that now You are missing lot of those pieces and You can't get the puzzle done
[/quote]
Point out irrelevant things?Like how you supinate as you uncock your wrists?How is that irrelevent since the whole discussion is based on your supinationless downswing?
[/quote]

Bolded one. Also You look the shoulder line very wrong way in this case. And even make big mistake in calculation. 45 degrees s´closed shoulder turning to 25 deg open, is not really 20 degrees turn. It is 70 degrees.

I demonstrated the moves, not the sequence or times they happen. I thought You will try and find something like many others did. You didn't even search. Not even some others asked You to do so.

Like I said, You are missing many pieces of those moves and that's why You can't understand my demonstration and opinion. Same than few days ago You couldn't understand what supination means.

Anyway it's totally clear that by UD and PF You can reach Hogans impact position without any supination. When You find those missing pieces, You will understand it. And yes... it took few hers from me also.

[dap]

Don't forget supination is forearm rotation,not entire arm rotation.The elbow does not have to rotate.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316452573' post='3574078']
supinate my hand 180 deg.
[/quote]

Supinate hand??? Supination is forearm rotation.

[dap]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316452831' post='3574085']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316451958' post='3574056']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316451490' post='3574038']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316450929' post='3574017']
[
I am not talking about standing still with the shoulders square.I just wanna know how rotated shoulders 20 deg open at impact is going to cancel out all that forearm pronation made in the backswing.How open the hips are is irrelevent.The last I checked.the arms are connected to the shoulders not the hips.

How about we ask some real experts in anatomy?Sure I could wrong but I doubt it.Common sense,a good eye and logic quite often prevails.
[/quote]

The left shoulder rotates about 90 degrees in my demonstration. That is also quite hard to see without understanding that shoulder line is not what to look at.

You point out all the time most irrelevant things in my demonstration [b]like timing[/b], which has nothing to do with that. If You really want to understand Hogans moves, put it all to pieces and then try to put them back together again. The problem is that now You are missing lot of those pieces and You can't get the puzzle done
[/quote]
Point out irrelevant things?Like how you supinate as you uncock your wrists?How is that irrelevent since the whole discussion is based on your supinationless downswing?
[/quote]

Bolded one. Also You look the shoulder line very wrong way in this case. And even make big mistake in calculation. 45 degrees s´closed shoulder turning to 25 deg open, is not really 20 degrees turn. It is 70 degrees.

I demonstrated the moves, not the sequence or times they happen. I thought You will try and find something like many others did. You didn't even search. Not even some others asked You to do so.

Like I said, You are missing many pieces of those moves and that's why You can't understand my demonstration and opinion. Same than few days ago You couldn't understand what supination means.

Anyway it's totally clear that by UD and PF You can reach Hogans impact position without any supination. When You find those missing pieces, You will understand it. And yes... it took few hers from me also.
[/quote]
I never said 20 deg of shoulder turn.I said 20 deg open at impact.

Clearly by your demonstration you don't have all the pieces yourself but you sound like you are making a claim that you have figured all of Hogan's moves out.Is that correct?

[dap]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316452950' post='3574091']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316452573' post='3574078']
supinate my hand 180 deg.
[/quote]

Supinate hand??? Supination is forearm rotation.
[/quote]
There you go again nitpicking my words.My point is that you can rotate the forearm without rotating the elbow.Correct or not?

[ej002]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316452573' post='3574078']
Hogan did not play the ball that far forward.Most of the videos show his ball position is pretty standard.

Who said the right doesn't supinate.Just because you can see the inside of the right elbow late in the downswing doesn't mean it hasn't supinated.I can hold my right elbow motionless and still supinate my hand 180 deg.
[/quote]


Everything off the left heel as in 5L is pretty far forward in my opinion. He hit a stock fade, that means it was forward on the arc. Nobody said he hit a push fade, but regardless.

I agree with what you can do, but the right did not pronate closed on the downswing. Look at post 351. If it did, the palm would be facing down, it is not, it facing the target perfectly. Only the right wrist palmar flexed. (Bent back). I am really trying not to be a smart*** but I am not sure you are getting what we are saying. That right arm is supinated at impact, not 90* but pretty close.

[dap]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1316453832' post='3574130']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316452573' post='3574078']
Hogan did not play the ball that far forward.Most of the videos show his ball position is pretty standard.

Who said the right doesn't supinate.Just because you can see the inside of the right elbow late in the downswing doesn't mean it hasn't supinated.I can hold my right elbow motionless and still supinate my hand 180 deg.
[/quote]


Everything off the left heel as in 5L is pretty far forward in my opinion. He hit a stock fade, that means it was forward on the arc. Nobody said he hit a push fade, but regardless.

I agree with what you can do, but the right did not pronate closed on the downswing. Look at post 351. If it did, the palm would be facing down, it is not, it facing the target perfectly. Only the right wrist palmar flexed. (Bent back). I am really trying not to be a smart*** but I am not sure you are getting what we are saying. That right arm is supinated at impact, not 90* but pretty close.
[/quote]
No he said he played everything 1 inch inside the left heel.In reality I don't see it that forward even.Look at his videos.I don't see his ball position that far forward,maybe for driver.

Look I am no expert in anatomy and frankly neither is TeeAce or anyone else here.It's anatomy science meets kinesiology amateur hour really.I mean who knows,the hands are made of soft tissue and are not welded onto the club.Just because one hand does this doesn't the other must do that.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316453351' post='3574104']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316452831' post='3574085']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316451958' post='3574056']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316451490' post='3574038']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316450929' post='3574017']
[
I am not talking about standing still with the shoulders square.I just wanna know how rotated shoulders 20 deg open at impact is going to cancel out all that forearm pronation made in the backswing.How open the hips are is irrelevent.The last I checked.the arms are connected to the shoulders not the hips.

How about we ask some real experts in anatomy?Sure I could wrong but I doubt it.Common sense,a good eye and logic quite often prevails.
[/quote]

The left shoulder rotates about 90 degrees in my demonstration. That is also quite hard to see without understanding that shoulder line is not what to look at.

You point out all the time most irrelevant things in my demonstration [b]like timing[/b], which has nothing to do with that. If You really want to understand Hogans moves, put it all to pieces and then try to put them back together again. The problem is that now You are missing lot of those pieces and You can't get the puzzle done
[/quote]
Point out irrelevant things?Like how you supinate as you uncock your wrists?How is that irrelevent since the whole discussion is based on your supinationless downswing?
[/quote]

Bolded one. Also You look the shoulder line very wrong way in this case. And even make big mistake in calculation. 45 degrees s´closed shoulder turning to 25 deg open, is not really 20 degrees turn. It is 70 degrees.

I demonstrated the moves, not the sequence or times they happen. I thought You will try and find something like many others did. You didn't even search. Not even some others asked You to do so.

Like I said, You are missing many pieces of those moves and that's why You can't understand my demonstration and opinion. Same than few days ago You couldn't understand what supination means.

Anyway it's totally clear that by UD and PF You can reach Hogans impact position without any supination. When You find those missing pieces, You will understand it. And yes... it took few hers from me also.
[/quote]
I never said 20 deg of shoulder turn.I said 20 deg open at impact.

Clearly by your demonstration you don't have all the pieces yourself but you sound like you are making a claim that you have figured all of Hogan's moves out.Is that correct?
[/quote]

I try once more even I know it's worthless.

If You put the dot to my left shoulder to the side of upper arm at start of my demonstration, it points about 90 degrees across the target line. At impact it points about 50 degrees left of target. So that dot has moved about 140 degrees, when shoulder line has rotated only about 70 degrees, because shoulders live their own dependent life also. The shoulder has rotated about 90 degrees from it's start, but that dot much more when it's on the upper arms side. On the same time PF and UD closes the cf also and everything without any supination.

You also forget that arms changes it's position also other way hen it drops down and moves out and then again IN! It goes about 30-40 degrees left at impact, so the face should be opened about same amount. In my demonstration it also moves about 60 degrees out at beginning, which can not seen from face on video, but it does.

That is one short list of things You are missing in this geometry and You have based Your theory to something else. Like I said earlier... just keep Your mind and continue like You do. Doesn't make any harm for me. If You want to find Out what I demonstrated, lift Your a** from that seat once and take the club in Your hands and You will find how I do it without any supination. I bet You will not do that, because it kills Your arguments.

[dap]

TeeAce,you supinated your left forearm in that demonstration.What's the point of connecting the dots from here to there.

[tembolo1284]

I love this thread.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316454285' post='3574150']


Look I am no expert in anatomy and frankly neither is TeeAce or anyone else here..
[/quote]

How the heck You can say I'm not expert in that? How can You really know who here has studied what and how?

I have been working last more than six years researching anatomy and move of the joints in golf swing and been guided by few doctors and biomechanics experts through those years.

You really went over the limit now.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316455134' post='3574183']
TeeAce,you supinated your left forearm in that demonstration.What's the point of connecting the dots from here to there.
[/quote]

Not a bit, and it doesn't change just because You don't understand it. I'm not sure if You understand anything written.

[ej002]

This thread went old school...

[dap]

ej002,I did look at the pic in post 351 and that pretty much proves what I am saying.

I don't understand at all why you say the right palm has to face the ground to be supinated.It has supinated back to square from a pronated position in the backswing.You can see still see the inside of the right elbow which perhaps gives the illusion that the right forearm has not supinated but I have pointed out the right elbow doesn't have to move to rotate the forearm.

[grahler]

The amount of left arm rotation that happens on backswing is minimal maybe a tiny bit when right arm folds.
Tee is correct if you play around with a club its easy to see. It took me quite a while to simply see what is also Sap.

[dap]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1316455395' post='3574204']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316454285' post='3574150']


Look I am no expert in anatomy and frankly neither is TeeAce or anyone else here..
[/quote]

How the heck You can say I'm not expert in that? How can You really know who here has studied what and how?

I have been working last more than six years researching anatomy and move of the joints in golf swing and been guided by few doctors and biomechanics experts through those years.

You really went over the limit now.
[/quote]
Yeah?At which University?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1316455729' post='3574224']
The amount of left arm rotation that happens on backswing is minimal maybe a tiny bit when right arm folds.
Tee is correct if you play around with a club its easy to see. It took me quite a while to simply see what is also Sap.
[/quote]

And after You find it, You don't see many other possibilities any more. All other moves brakes the function. I made even better video of that move and I will PM that to You also.

[hoganfan924]

This thread is quickly running off the rails. You don't need to be a PHD to be able to pick up an anatomy book and look up "supination." It's high school or college freshmen level anatomy and physiology. lol

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1316447150' post='3573852']
I agree nobody does that when they swing, it was a demonstration. 30* is probably exagerated. Either way, I think you guys are both taking a hard line. I dont understand it, but if you do what he did in the video, there is no active arm supination and the face comes lose to square. You also have to realize that Teeace said the grip is stronger than what most think. It appears weak b/c of the high hands at set up. So I think this (stronger grip) will also account for some of the face closure.

Regardless of his demonstration, it actually does work. Really the ulnar deviation happens last, the club just falls late. But the point is there is minimal, if any, supination. I think whan you do the ulnar deviation, the wrist bones and the muscles in the forarm have to change, causing a bit of supination (as least when the forearm is on the inclined plane). Try Teeace's demonstration the opposite way, drop the wrist last. Same thing.
[/quote]

Hogan's left hand is weak, right hand weaker, exactly as he said in 5L. Putting hands mid body makes it look stronger because of cupping.. Then letting club fall down via pure gravity/unccck as much as possible while cupped makes it look weaker. So what does that add up to EJ?.. lol

[ej002]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1316455691' post='3574221']
ej002,I did look at the pic in post 351 and that pretty much proves what I am saying.

I don't understand at all why you say the right palm has to face the ground to be supinated.It has supinated back to square from a pronated position in the backswing.You can see still see the inside of the right elbow which perhaps gives the illusion that the right forearm has not supinated but I have pointed out the right elbow doesn't have to move to rotate the forearm.
[/quote]


And that is the disconnect. In that picture the wrist is palmer flexed (i.e. bent backward). While the right forearm is supinated (belly up). IT is a function of how bent the right arm is also. If the right arm fully pronated back to neutral and the wrist was bent back all the way the club would be way up in the air! The only way to have that right palm bent back like that and to have the right elbow still bent is to have the belly of the forearm up. That is supination. That is different than if the arm was straight, back to neutral and the wrist was pointing at the ground.

So all Tee is saying is the right arm can open up. Stay open on the downswing, and all that has to happen is the wrist bends back (and at the same time the left wrist UDs).

Hogan has the most bent right arm I ever saw. That is what the difference is. That is why the right arm has to be so supinated at impact (at least to hit it straight).

the Reason the right arm looks like it is back to neutral is because the upper humerous is rotated forward. It the arm is not extending 90* out from the body, but at an angle to meet the left arm. If you supnate your right arm all the way (while it is straight out from you) the belly of the arm is up, all you have to do from tehre is move the right hand toward teh left. Do this in the mirror. The right forearm did not pronate to get there, but it looks like it did.