Revolving Plane or Static Plane

[Larry111]

Several years ago I took lessons from Mike Austin. It was a long time before everything started to sink in probably because Mike was a bad teacher, he over complicated the swing, had zero patience and when I took lessons he was partially parallelized which muddied up the water to some extent. To be fair I wasn't a great student which didn't help.

 

One of the things he taught was that the club shaft should swing on a revolving plane in a circle around his body. In other words he didn't extend the club back along the target line which causes a sway, he moved the club around in a circle with his turn which people call inside but which is actually on the revolving plane.

 

Today's conventional wisdom says to swing the club in relation to the static set up plane. I'm sure most everyone is familiar with the advice that whichever end of the club is closest to the ground should be more or less pointing at an extension of the target line and that when the club shaft is parallel to the ground it should be parallel to the target line.

 

So at P2 we are told that the shaft should be parallel to the target line, Mike's shaft was parallel to his shoulders.

 

This is a good illustration of the revolving plane.

 

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[TJbasket]

I'd personally say that today's wisdom is that it doesn't really matter. What does matter is consistently efficient launch monitor numbers. I find that it's a more effective way to improve than to try and implement a, uh, revolving plane.

[Pinsplitter59]

interesting concept. hard to get your head around it, like the right arm/hand action he demonstrates with the paper airplane. In this forum you are not allowed to take the club away like that.

But for 2 really different swings Austin and Hogan the similarity at the crucial points is remarkable.

That all changed of course when Big Jack came along.

Austin does an amazing job of getting his hands from a very high position back down to a shaft-plane hitting angle, maybe all that extreme reverse tilt helps, i dunno, but he was a tall very flexible guy obviously.

its the holy grail everyone here seems to searching for.

 

[GungHoGolf]

Several years ago I took lessons from Mike Austin. It was a long time before everything started to sink in probably because Mike was a bad teacher, he over complicated the swing, had zero patience and when I took lessons he was partially parallelized which muddied up the water to some extent. To be fair I wasn't a great student which didn't help.

 

One of the things he taught was that the club shaft should swing on a revolving plane in a circle around his body. In other words he didn't extend the club back along the target line which causes a sway, he moved the club around in a circle with his turn which people call inside but which is actually on the revolving plane.

 

Today's conventional wisdom says to swing the club in relation to the static set up plane. I'm sure most everyone is familiar with the advice that whichever end of the club is closest to the ground should be more or less pointing at an extension of the target line and that when the club shaft is parallel to the ground it should be parallel to the target line.

 

So at P2 we are told that the shaft should be parallel to the target line, Mike's shaft was parallel to his shoulders.

 

This is a good illustration of the revolving plane.

 

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That's an interesting video, but I don't think the plane actually rotates that much or even at all. It takes a significant force to change the axis of a spinning object - think of a gyroscope and how it actively holds position.

 

In the downswing and follow thru, the club wants to stay on a flat, 2-D plane, and I just don't think the body has enough strength to rotate that plane as much as the video purports.

[Larry111]

I'm not putting anyone down, I'm just saying that most instruction says to swing the club wide along the target line in the back swing.The shoulders are turning, why shouldn't the club shaft be turning with and parallel to the shoulders?

[David C]

I don't think it's about 'strength' it's a different perspective about viewing your club relating to your rotating shoulders instead of relating to the baseline established at address.

[Millbrook]

Larry,

 

I've never heard the 2 approaches you mentioned as alternatives or described that way.

 

The way I have heard it is that either the head or butt points to the target line except when the club is parallel to the target line. At that point it swaps from the head pointing at the t line to the butt. (lets ignore that some swings may be above it and some below it).

 

The target line reaches to infinity so the club continues to point to it throughout the backswing. The point being to neither stand up or lie down the shaft.

 

I don't see this in conflict at all with the revolving plane. I can see the revolving plane idea being used to stop someone swaying or dragging the club inside.

 

I don't think I've grasped what the difference between the two is supposed to be.

[Larry111]

Maybe this will add some clarity. Someone posted the Austinology videos on YouTube, I edited the one about the compound pivot and posted it to show what they are saying about the shaft plane.

 

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[GungHoGolf]

I'm not putting anyone down, I'm just saying that most instruction says to swing the club wide along the target line in the back swing.The shoulders are turning, why shouldn't the club shaft be turning with and parallel to the shoulders?

 

Here is a Gears Golf 3D trace of an elite player's swing from top thru to finish

 

Does that look more like a flat 2D plane to you, or a wildly rotated plane like in the "creatively edited" Rory video?

 

Here is the video where I got that screenshot:

 

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I'm sure iteach or another Gears instructor could clear this up for us quickly and give us a perfectly aligned edge view video of the downswing and follow-through.

[David C]

The gears thing is at a crossed purpose, it is tracking the trace of the club of a player, not showing the trace of a club of a player and whether it relates to an imaginary moving, oblique plane, which has a planar surface formed by the hands and the shoulders.

 

My take is I don't think Larry is saying 'players swing with a rotating plane'. I think he is saying, 'here is a concept, a different idea, and an illustration of it'. I don't even think he is saying Rory is doing that, could probably pick any player and put the graphic over them, just for illustrative purposes. Rory's club isn't on plane in that picture, in relation to a moving plane.

 

I think if you put such an image of a coloured triangle on the gears avatar, formed by the shoulders and hands, and had the image move with the shoulders it would illustrate this concept of viewing a plane moving with the shoulders moving. The avatar's club wouldn't be 'on plane' when looking at it from a rotating plane perspective. From a 'down the line' view from a conventional perspective, a club relating to the rotating plane is going to be seen to be way inside, flat and stuck.

 

I think.

[GungHoGolf]

The gears thing is at a crossed purpose, it is tracking the trace of the club of a player, not showing the trace of a club of a player and whether it relates to an imaginary moving, oblique plane, which has a planar surface formed by the hands and the shoulders.

 

My take is I don't think Larry is saying 'players swing with a rotating plane'. I think he is saying, 'here is a concept, a different idea, and an illustration of it'. I don't even think he is saying Rory is doing that, could probably pick any player and put the graphic over them, just for illustrative purposes. Rory's club isn't on plane in that picture, in relation to a moving plane.

 

I think if you put such an image of a coloured triangle on the gears avatar, formed by the shoulders and hands, and had the image move with the shoulders it would illustrate this concept of viewing a plane moving with the shoulders moving. The avatar's club wouldn't be 'on plane' when looking at it from a rotating plane perspective. From a 'down the line' view from a conventional perspective, a club relating to the rotating plane is going to be seen to be way inside, flat and stuck.

 

I think.

 

I dunno, I re-read the OP and it's written quite literally. If it's just a thought, or a feeling, that helps folks keep the club on a good plane and make a good pivot, then fine. But I think beginners could really get the wrong concept of what the club's actually doing by watching that video.

[Silky]

Lary111,

The vdo is your original post is misleading indeed. The action of the "revolving plane" as depicted in that VDO invokes the action of a desktop fan that can swing from side to side.

 

 

I prefer to think of turning inside a barrel while the barrel is tilting.

 

So, during downswing, with active secondary tilting, the spine axis is pointing away from the target with the butts closer to the target than the head.

 

As I develop my own swing, rereading Hogan's Five Lessons, I come to greater and greater appreciation on many details that Hogan had uncovered such as that pertains here is the shifting of the baseline of the "plane" to the right ijn the downswing.

 

 

 

I now prefer to think of orbits instead of a plane, the orbit of the lead shoulder, the orbit of the hands, the orbit of the clubhead. Are those orbits planar?

 

For an efficient backswing, why not? We could have those three planes each with the baseline parallel to the target lines and intersect at the top of swing. With this consideration, during the backswing, the butt of the club and the clubhead move in different planes.

 

For an efficient downswing, the arms and the club motions are powered by the tilting and turning of the pivot. With this consideration, the hands move in a helical orbit from the top of swing to p6, like the thread of a screw with downward and around-ward action. Likewise from p6 to the finish, the upswing (?), the hands also move in a helical orbit, with upward and around-ward action.

 

So, in downswing and upswing, the orbit of the hands needs not be planar, and the orbit of the clubhead driven by the hands orbit needs not be planar either.

 

The intent of maintaining the plane by having the club shaft pointing along the target line is not helpful either in the backswing or downswing.

 

So, in my humble opinion, it is neither a revolving plane nor static plane.

[Larry111]

Good points, I used the video of Rory because of the graphics and I tried to picture the shaft rotating with the shoulders. Austin compared the shoulders and hips to wheels. The spine represented the axle. The left arm was the spoke.and the spoke turned with the hub and wheel.

 

In other words, he didn't swing the left arm independently by swinging the club head down the target line. He said the only independent action was the hand action. His pivot worked in sync, his head stayed centralized while his COG swung like a pendulum and he threw the club head from the top with his right hand and arm.

 

Not everybody can wrap their heads around this including myself for years and years because it's counter to most of the teaching out there. For those who are interested, this is part of a video Austin and Dunaway did in Jan/2000 in Fayetteville AR.. Austin was 90 years old at the time.

 

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[RBImGuy]

Several years ago I took lessons from Mike Austin. It was a long time before everything started to sink in probably because Mike was a bad teacher, he over complicated the swing, had zero patience and when I took lessons he was partially parallelized which muddied up the water to some extent. To be fair I wasn't a great student which didn't help.

 

One of the things he taught was that the club shaft should swing on a revolving plane in a circle around his body. In other words he didn't extend the club back along the target line which causes a sway, he moved the club around in a circle with his turn which people call inside but which is actually on the revolving plane.

 

 

90% what Mike talked about wasn't accurate to what he was doing.

His conceptual models really dont make sense.

 

interesting concept. hard to get your head around it, like the right arm/hand action he demonstrates with the paper airplane. In this forum you are not allowed to take the club away like that.

But for 2 really different swings Austin and Hogan the similarity at the crucial points is remarkable.

That all changed of course when Big Jack came along.

Austin does an amazing job of getting his hands from a very high position back down to a shaft-plane hitting angle, maybe all that extreme reverse tilt helps, i dunno, but he was a tall very flexible guy obviously.

its the holy grail everyone here seems to searching for.

 

since I did model Mike Austin and built a model from what he was doing vs what he was teaching the concepts people use trying to explain the swing he did and the difference vs whatever what else people did will fall short every time.

Obviously those taught by Mike etc..will use such but in the end its a non working approach.

 

A model built as I done is a different way one create the output or the result if you like of what the role-model did and then optimize its efficiency. The result will be more efficient, simpler and more direct without unneeded elements as one has captured the core essence and understand the patterns involved.

 

[naval2006]

Are we talking about Paul Runyan's swing within the barrel or barrel swing that was the way to swing the club until Nicklaus showed up? It's kind of reinventing the wheel LOL

[Larry111]

naval. Turning in a barrel keeps the body centralized over the ball, this is about swinging the COG like a pendulum which adds power and keeps the head centralized which adds precision.

 

http://i.imgur.com/PEe4NoR.gif

[naval2006]

naval. Turning in a barrel keeps the body centralized over the ball, this is about swinging the COG like a pendulum which adds power and keeps the head centralized which adds precision.

 

http://i.imgur.com/PEe4NoR.gif

 

Sorry for my ignorance. Is this Mike Austin? Impressive swing, loads of power.

[Larry111]

naval.That's Austin. He was partially paralyzed when I knew him but I met Mike Dunaway through Austin and played golf with Dunaway.

[mudge]

Good points, I used the video of Rory because of the graphics and I tried to picture the shaft rotating with the shoulders. Austin compared the shoulders and hips to wheels. The spine represented the axle. The left arm was the spoke.and the spoke turned with the hub and wheel.

 

In other words, he didn't swing the left arm independently by swinging the club head down the target line. He said the only independent action was the hand action. His pivot worked in sync, his head stayed centralized while his COG swung like a pendulum and he threw the club head from the top with his right hand and arm.

 

Not everybody can wrap their heads around this including myself for years and years because it's counter to most of the teaching out there. For those who are interested, this is part of a video Austin and Dunaway did in Jan/2000 in Fayetteville AR.. Austin was 90 years old at the time.

 

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Thanks for putting a time/date on that video Larry, I actually own it and have watched it dozens of times. I owe 97% or so of my understanding of the golf swing to that video and the Austinology tapes.

[Larry111]

Silky, mudge and daval. To put a bow on things this is a graphic of an airplane to illustrate Austin's hand action.

 

http://i.imgur.com/iQmp6Lr.gifv

[Silky]

Silky, mudge and daval. To put a bow on things this is a graphic of an airplane to illustrate Austin's hand action.

 

http://i.imgur.com/iQmp6Lr.gifv

 

What!!? The old master actually hits a ball with the airplane attached to the club shaft!

 

Aerodynamically, the wings of the airplane in the wrong orientation during his swing would create tremendous resistance.

 

This is the clubface control puzzle that I have yet to understand, whether it is active or passive.

 

My goto thought previously was Hogan's throwing the basketball to the target.

 

Hogan seemed to favor active action, his famous supination.

 

As of now, for hacker like me, passive is still the key - MDLT swinging the arms and the club. But ball goes left and goes right of the target too often with no good explanation. :)

[Larry111]

The airplane was added. He didn't roll his arms or as he said he didn't spin the head around the shaft, he had a slap hinge release which is what people call a flip. He started the throw and the pivot at the same time from top in a quick burst of speed and then coasted through the ball into the finish. I played with Dunaway and he hit the ball pretty close to dead straight.

 

This was posted on YouTube from Austinology where Austin and Dunaway talk winding up the right forearm and releasing the club by spinning the forearm. He calls it pulling a bow string back and letting it go.

 

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKmK511Mrsw[/media]

[mudge]

Silky, mudge and daval. To put a bow on things this is a graphic of an airplane to illustrate Austin's hand action.

 

http://i.imgur.com/iQmp6Lr.gifv

 

Ah yes, the mystery of the secret Austin hand action.

 

Best as I can tell, Austin used the same hand action for his entire playing career, but didn't tell another soul until the '90s or so. Austin confused a lot of people lol.

[Larry111]

mudge, that's why people who took lessons from Austin and the ones who teach his swing don't quite get it. On the video you have that was made in 2000 in Fayetteville, Austin was saying to counter rotate the forearms to keep the blade on the outside of the shaft. In the video I posted above is what he actually did.

 

If the shaft isn't on plane you will have to course correct in the down swing to find the ball which slows everything down, if it's on plane you can throw it and let momentum and inertia take over.

 

All the pieces fit together like a well oiled synergistic machine. If you try to mix and match parts of the flavor of the month teachings with it or some of what you see and hear in the golf instruction group think bubble it would be like pouring sand in the gears of your transmission. It locks up.

[mudge]

In the Fayetteville 2000 video, MA finally cleared up what the "secret" hand action involved. It centered on the release, not the takeaway. He never taught anyone to open the blade taking it back.

 

In Austinology, swinging left hand only, MA teaches MD a release where the left thumb/wrist goes from radial flexion to ulnar deviation (ie pushing on the shaft with the thumb), then supinating the left arm through impact.

 

In the 2000 video, he taught the release going from palmar flexion to hyperextension. It's definitely worth some club head speed and accuracy. Shauger was trying to get at this concept, but he butchered and exaggerated it badly (along with everything else in the MA swing).

[Larry111]

mudge, I was talking about the hand action in the back swing.This is a clip from the Word's Best Driver which came out in around 2005. Dunaway calls the hand action a conical action.

 

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[mudge]

Thanks Larry, I have that video as well :) I knew that you were specifically referring to the backswing hand action, but I wanted to add that MA's "secret " also involved the downswing as well (ie it wasn't only about the counter rotation / conical action in the BS).

 

And you are 100% correct that if the whole swing doesn't match up, it doesn't matter what hand action you use lol.

 

PS Are you sitting on top of any secret MA vids, or better yet a Flammer? ;)

[Larry111]

And yes his left hand was going from palmar flexion to extension what a lot of people here call a flip. He stressed that the looser and more free the left wrist was the the farther and straighter the ball went. His left hand worked like a he was throwing a frisbee. Pretty interesting stuff because everybody is teaching an anti-flip or how not to flip move. lol

 

After going down a bunch of rabbit holes and leaving the swing and coming back to it several times I found that the original way he taught of winding up the forearm or pulling back the bowstring as he called it worked best for me. Then the free wheeling throw and the release like he demonstrated below together with the pivot gives you the feeling of gliding through the ball as Austin called it.

 

 

[Larry111]

So basically the left hand was breaking up and the shaft was coming in and the left palm was facing towards the ground somewhat. If you do it right you shouldn't feel any friction. He said he felt like his left hand was part of the grip and not his arm.

 

But it goes right back to the beginning, if the shaft isn't on the perfect plane, the swing won't be effective. For me, when I did the counter rotation going back my wrists and forearms locked up and I couldn't get the club shaft on plane in the back swing. I had trouble throwing the club head from the bowed position of my left wrist at the top.

 

The throw is just a straitening of the right elbow behind you while letting the right forearm unwind like a karate chop as you pivot. Austin and Dunaway's right arms and upper right arms worked in perfect sync with their pivots. Also, Austin said his left hand, wrist and arm were dead and he was throwing his left wrist down the fairway.

 

I'm sure you can see it but a lot of people can't unless they know what to look for.

 

[mudge]

My particular problems learning the MA swing centered around two issues. First, for the longest time I was gripping the club incorrectly. Second, I wasn't using my shoulder blades the same way he was using them.

 

Long story short, after I got those two issues sorted out, everything fell into place. And I agree, the bowed wrist never featured in MA's swing so I don't know why he ever taught it that way.