Revolving Plane or Static Plane

[Larry111]

His left hand position got stronger, he called it a Honda grip as the ball moved back in his stance with the shorter clubs. Someone posted a video on YouTube recently about Austin's grip. He factored in the forward shaft lean that's built into the irons.

[mudge]

I know, Larry :) I meant that I was following the instructions to grip the club as best I could, but it wasn't allowing me a full free release until I got it right.

[Larry111]

Mike changed the design of the Flammer around 2000 to get the palmar and extension action through the ball. The design of the original Flammer forced a roll through impact.

[mudge]

For how long did you take lessons with MA, or about how many lessons did you take with him, and during what timeframe?

[Larry111]

I took lessons from Mike off and on from the mid 90s until before his death in 2005.

[mudge]

Ah ok very good. Are you currently "off" or "on" with the MA swing? I've seen you posting in the forum on other swing ways/methods.

[Larry111]

I'm on. I haven't watched Austinology in quite a few years because I have it on VHS. I watched the Austinology videos someone put up on YouTube and and saw that I was talking the club down the line instead of letting the shaft rotate with my turn parallel to my shoulders.

 

I mentioned early that all the pieces have to be fit for it to work so if the shaft isn't on plane the direction of the throw is off. If you do it right you shouldn't feel anything in your body. For instance if you feel the hit in your arms or hips that means that you didn't get the energy into the club head. It remained in your arms or hips.

 

You should feel total smoothness with zero friction or no impedance as Mike put it.

[leegee38]

I took lessons from Mike off and on from the mid 90s until before his death in 2005.

 

I'm envious, Larry. I spoke with Mike on the phone a couple times but never got to meet him in person. I enjoyed him, and he was somewhat helpful. I could never figure out what I was doing wrong when I went off track though. Of course video showed me I was probably never doing what I thought I was doing anyway. I keep coming back to the method because it seemed like the easiest on my body when I did it right. Sad that neither Mike is around anymore.

 

- Lee

[Larry111]

Lee, Austin was quite a character. His swing is difficult to learn because it's way outside the box and you get off track if you try to mix other ideas with what he was doing. Also he wasn't the most patient person on the planet and he added to the confusion when he changed parts of his hand action after he had a stroke.

 

The swing is easy to learn, the problem is finding someone who can teach it. The people who teach Mike's swing through no fault of their own don't get it, at least the one's I've seen anyway.

[mudge]

I've been fortunate that I've always owned a digital copy of Austinology, so that I've been able to watch it what must be dozens of times up to this point. I've got many parts of dialogue between MA and MD memorized!

 

I think the swing is hard to learn because it is broken down to the level of what each of the 12 major joints (ankles, knees, hips, shoulders, elbows, wrists) are doing at any time during the motion. It's a level of detail that I haven't seen taught anywhere else, and it's a rare golfer that would care for it in the first place.

 

I also think that the change in the hand action MA taught is at best a minor issue. If your swing has all the parts with his so-called "rolling" release, changing to use the later MA hand action is trivial.

 

Speaking of MA teachers (I don't count Shauger teachers, as that's a different swing), the only two I know of that could claim a direct connection to the man are Deb Vangellow and Betsy Cullen, both out of Texas. I feel like I'm pretty close to being able to teach it myself (or more precisely, better than I've seen anyone other than MA himself teach it.)

[leegee38]

I have the Austinology VHS tapes also ... and nothing to play them on. I still remember most of it though, and my conversations with Mike.

 

One thing that bothers me a little is him holding Mike Dunaway up as the best example of his method. It bothers me because I think I see differences in their swings. I know Mike D. talked about hitting the ball off the right side of his body, and I don't believe I ever heard Austin mention that. Plus the old videos of Austin makes him look very close to square at impact. Of course their height difference made for different swing planes. I have to say I have never heard from anyone who met Mike Dunaway that didn't like him. Seemed like a really good guy.

 

I follow Deb Vangellow on Twitter but have never been to see her. I would agree that virtually everyone else I've seen claim to teach the Austin method really has their own version, most of which are tweaked beyond recognition.

[Larry111]

mudge, I met Deb and Betsy Cullen but haven't seen them in 15 or 20 years.

 

Lee. Austin used to say to hit it off the right side. I played with Dunaway and it's hard to believe without seeing him in person consistently fly the ball 370 to 380 with what looks like a smooth easy swing. He hit it almost dead straight too.

 

 

[Silky]

mudge, I met Deb and Betsy Cullen but haven't seen them in 15 or 20 years.

 

Lee. Austin used to say to hit it off the right side. I played with Dunaway and it's hard to believe without seeing him in person consistently fly the ball 370 to 380 with what looks like a smooth easy swing. He hit it almost dead straight too.

 

 

 

What a powerful flow!

 

Larry111,

 

What are the wise words from MA regarding the lower body?

 

I notice powerful weight shift and turn, but no squat.

[mudge]

 

 

One thing that bothers me a little is him holding Mike Dunaway up as the best example of his method. It bothers me because I think I see differences in their swings.

 

 

Your perception is accurate. MD was hitting the ball a mile before he ever met MA, and he was a incredibly strong dude (he played fullback at Central Arkansas before he suffered a career ending hip injury). He always had natural clubhead speed but hit it crooked. MA didn't make him long, but he did make him straight.

 

I'm borrowing this description of MD's swing from a post Monte made about MD on another forum some years ago, but MD was "slinging it big time." [Fun fact: MD's protege Tom Duke released a swing system named "Wind and Sling" based on what MD taught him.] He was across the line at the top, yanked on the handle and came down OTT, and his hips came around past square to the target at the finish (that's the big tell that he slung it). Not at all like how MA swung it.

 

MA holding up MD as the best example of his swing method was understandable, as they spent over 25 years together. But yes objectively, lots of differences between the two. One swung with raw power, the other was poetry in motion.

 

 

 

I have to say I have never heard from anyone who met Mike Dunaway that didn't like him. Seemed like a really good guy.

 

 

By all accounts he was a great guy, AFAIK he hardly even swore. But from watching the available videos, he didn't demonstrate the level of understanding of the MA swing I'd expect from someone who worked with MA as long as he did.

[mudge]

 

What are the wise words from MA regarding the lower body?

 

I notice powerful weight shift and turn, but no squat.

 

I'll throw in my two cents. MA taught use of the legs as a two post turning system, ie

 

(1) in the BS, the right leg becomes a post to turn/rotate the left side between the spine and ball

 

(2) the DS is the reverse of the BS (left leg becomes a post to be able to turn and hit the ball of the right side of the body) [NB: (2) is what MA taught, but not quite how he actually swung it himself, but that's another topic for another time.].

 

MA did not like the squat. He loved Sam Snead's swing, but nitpicked on Snead's squat move. [snead swung with a centered pivot and incredible rotation, so I'm dubious on how applicable his criticism would be anyways, as MA swung with neither.]

[Larry111]

In terms of the lower body Mike wanted the right knee, thigh and hip kick out in the direction of the ball pulling the right shoulder in the down swing. The right heel has to be detached as Mike says.

 

The COG swinging from 4 o'clock to 10 o'clock if there was a clock laid out on the ground with 12 where the ball is and 6 behind you. As you shift, loosely unfold your right elbow. Loose muscles are fast muscles. You shouldn't feel any friction in your body if you do it right.

 

Someone put up the Austinology videos on YouTube which has some great stuff if you like Mike Austin and Dunaway.

 

Here is a video of Dunaway, notice that his arms move with his upper torso like dance partners as Dunaway said. No tension in his right arm. Austin said the throw was like there was a wagon at the top of a hill and then giving it just enough momentum to start it moving downhill if that makes sense.

 

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[leegee38]

 

The COG swinging from 4 o'clock to 10 o'clock if there was a clock laid out on the ground with 12 where the ball is and 6 behind you.

 

I've always understood this, but when I attempt to employ it video shows a goat hump. How can you move COG from 4 to 10 without your hips moving closer to the ball?

Of course I also have trouble shifting from a right leg post to a left log post without my head and upper body moving forward, so maybe it just another personal issue of mine.

 

Still love to watch videos of both Mikes swinging. Almost hypnotic.

[Larry111]

It is a little bit of a goat hump but you'll never come over the top because your COG, center of gravity (belly button) is ahead of the SCC, swing circle center which is the base of your neck. The main thing to feel is the right side is revolving or free wheeling around the left.

 

A friend of mine was in San Diego all week for the Farmers Ins Open, he said that he saw Tiger and some of the guys hit their drives as much as 50 yards offline to the left.

 

Club head circles the C7. If the COG is leading the C7 you won't come over the top.Watch his right knee, thigh, hip then right shoulder move towards the ball from the ground up and swivel around his left leg. Speed and power.

 

Scroll up a couple of posts and watch Dunaway, you'll see it from DTL.

 

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