Top Golf Clubs, Losing Members, Quietly Sell Games

[Gxgolfer]

By Michael Buteau

Click for Artcle>>>Here

The Manhattan insurance broker doesn't have to pay the $40,000 initiation fee required of members at the private club, founded in 1917 at Hempstead Bay on Long Island. Instead, Hamburger, 40, joined Tour GCX. He paid the New York company $6,250. That entitles him and his clients to 10 rounds at his choice of 15 golf courses usually open only to members.

Tour GCX has prospered by introducing fractional -- or time- share -- memberships at top clubs. Some could use the cash. Private U.S. golf courses, with $14 billion in annual revenue, are mired in a bunker of declining members and flat earnings, according to club officials and resort companies such as Dallas- based ClubCorp Inc. Tour GCX pays clubs a fee to discreetly schedule golfers and their guests into vacant tee times, usually at off-peak hours.

``If some members knew about this, they wouldn't be happy,'' says Gary Rosenberg, Tour GCX's marketing chief.

[Placebo]

Being fairly new to golf still and not having the luxury of being financially independant I have never been a member of a country club. I have often wondered how some stay in business with the fee's they charge for membership.

 

Any members out there that have been or are currently country club members? If so could some of you please post your opinions on this? I can see how this could possible offend current members, but on the other hand I can also see a huge potential for business as well as saving struggling clubs.

[Sam-Tee-Time]

....................Any members out there that have been or are currently country club members? If so could some of you please post your opinions on this?  I can see how this could possible offend current members, but on the other hand I can also see a huge potential for business as well as saving struggling clubs.

43431[/snapback]

 

I just about slammed my fist on my desk when I read this article. :fool: Frankly - I would tear my club a new ***, if I ever heard of them doing this, and selling tee times to non members.

 

I joined a private club ONLY for the sole reason to have accessibility to the course, to be able to play and practice without the maddening crowds at the public courses in my area. Since I play as a single, it's difficult to impossible to get on any public course around here without waiting 1-2 hours (at least).

 

Basically - I would be very very upset if I ever heard of our club engaging in this practice. :ok: I pay good money every month for the sanctity, peace and quiet, and relaxation of playing a course that isn't that crowded in the evenings.

 

While I realize that this practice would allow more clubs to stay open, I would simply move to another club that ensured they don't engage in this practice. Can you tell I'm very opinionated on this subject?!?

[acrazygolfer]

....................Any members out there that have been or are currently country club members? If so could some of you please post your opinions on this?  I can see how this could possible offend current members, but on the other hand I can also see a huge potential for business as well as saving struggling clubs.

43431[/snapback]

 

I just about slammed my fist on my desk when I read this article. :fool: Frankly - I would tear my club a new ***, if I ever heard of them doing this, and selling tee times to non members.

 

I joined a private club ONLY for the sole reason to have accessibility to the course, to be able to play and practice without the maddening crowds at the public courses in my area. Since I play as a single, it's difficult to impossible to get on any public course around here without waiting 1-2 hours (at least).

 

Basically - I would be very very upset if I ever heard of our club engaging in this practice. :ok: I pay good money every month for the sanctity, peace and quiet, and relaxation of playing a course that isn't that crowded in the evenings.

 

While I realize that this practice would allow more clubs to stay open, I would simply move to another club that ensured they don't engage in this practice. Can you tell I'm very opinionated on this subject?!?

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[Placebo]

Can you tell I'm very opinionated on this subject?!?

Thank you very much for the reply. Yes I can, and I also completely understand your frustrations, you made some very valid points.

 

Would you still be opposed if you were guaranteed it would not impact your getting on the course when you want?

 

Hypothetical situation. Say your club was on the brink of closing its doors due to a drastic decrease in revenue. Would you re-consider your opinion on this?

 

acrazygolfer, assuming your opinion is the same as Sam's I pose the same questions to you.

 

Again thanks a million for the response!

[Evil R1]

I don't belong to a Private Club, but if I did, I would have to agree with Sam-Tee-Time. If you look at some of the prices you need to pay to join a private club. Like $40K+ to Join, $20K+ per year as membership dues, and you need to spend like $250+ a month in food, etc to be part of a Private club. Then someone else comes along, gets limited access to my club for just $6K, I would be pissed. :fool:

 

Thanks,

 

Hypothetical situation. Say your club was on the brink of closing its doors due to a drastic decrease in revenue. Would you re-consider your opinion on this?

 

Again thanks a million for the response!

43463[/snapback]

 

Again, if it was me. If I was one of a few thousand members that was paying like $20K+ a year for membership dues and my club couldn't financially survive ($20K * 5000 members = $100M), I would probably want to see where that money is going. If it looks legit (raise in taxes, insurance, etc) and not because the execs that run the place are greedy and feel they should get paid $5M / Year, then I would probably agree to an increased dues over opening it up to a Semi-Private course. That's just me, and this is a hypothetical situation.

 

Thanks,

[Sam-Tee-Time]

Would you still be opposed if you were guaranteed it would not impact your getting on the course when you want?

 

Hypothetical situation. Say your club was on the brink of closing its doors due to a drastic decrease in revenue. Would you re-consider your opinion on this?

 

43463[/snapback]

 

Here are my thoughts on your two questions:

 

? on Impact - I would STILL scream bloody murder at my club. Why? Because I don't believe the Clubshop personnel are detailed, observant, or strong enough to be able to police and monitor the non-members. And - I don't believe the non-members would graciously step aside for (paying) members while they're on the course. It is my belief that the arrogance of people will supersede any deference to the other party. This applies to both members and non-members.

 

Let me give you an example...............My club allows a local high school golf team to play and practice at our course, as well as the junior children of our members. These kids are GUESTS, yet they behave like arrogant PGA pros. Even though it is my understanding that the high school team should yield to the members, they don't.

 

Another example.................Before I joined my club, I was very seriously looking at another nice "Semi-Private" club in my area near my house. Truth be told - I wanted to join this one instead, but..........I made sure to play the course several times, and on a few occasions (at various times of the day/week) - I grabbed a drink, a chair, and WAITED at the 1st Tee for an hour or so, to watch the quantity of golfers teeing off. I wanted to see how crowded the course was - and guess what: Backups, crowds, lines at the food hut, and the teetime sheet was absolutely full of golfers. I also called the proshop anonymously on several occasions to make a tee time, and was denied because of outings, tournaments, leagues, and other shenanigans. Sorry - NOT for me.

 

? on Hypothetical - NO, I would not reconsider. If my club had to close due to financial difficulty, I would rather join another private club, rather than attempt to PAY good money to struggle to get on a crowded course. If this happened - I would simply have to join elsewhere, or play public golf once again.

 

I guess I'm meant to be an isolated person. While I enjoy playing with others on Saturday or Sunday mornings, I enjoy playing in solitude at the end of the busy business day during the week. It relaxes me, and allows me to work on my game. This is the main reason I joined a private club.

 

[titansbaseball]

I feel Evil hit the nail on the head. When you join a club it is up to you whether you used it or not. The result for not using it should be an increase in dues, NOT opening it up to the public.

 

After all, the club is "owned" by the members, and the way they use the club determines how much the dues are going to be, i.e. when and how much the increases are going to be.

 

Just my $.02...

[golfernut78]

....................Any members out there that have been or are currently country club members? If so could some of you please post your opinions on this?  I can see how this could possible offend current members, but on the other hand I can also see a huge potential for business as well as saving struggling clubs.

43431[/snapback]

 

I just about slammed my fist on my desk when I read this article. :fool: Frankly - I would tear my club a new ***, if I ever heard of them doing this, and selling tee times to non members.

 

I joined a private club ONLY for the sole reason to have accessibility to the course, to be able to play and practice without the maddening crowds at the public courses in my area. Since I play as a single, it's difficult to impossible to get on any public course around here without waiting 1-2 hours (at least).

 

Basically - I would be very very upset if I ever heard of our club engaging in this practice. :ok: I pay good money every month for the sanctity, peace and quiet, and relaxation of playing a course that isn't that crowded in the evenings.

 

While I realize that this practice would allow more clubs to stay open, I would simply move to another club that ensured they don't engage in this practice. Can you tell I'm very opinionated on this subject?!?

43449[/snapback]

 

sam,

i am curious what club you are a member of. i know we've chatted before and that you are here in the dfw metroplex. i don't know if you aware of this, but there is the dfw society which is through club corp. all you have to do is join one of the club corp clubs and then from that you pay a small (believe it is $40 a month) and you have access to a number of club corp properties. i know a lot of people have joined one of the city clubs (small intiation fee and small annual fee) and then join this and play all the courses. i have a friend who has done this and just played the dye course at stonebridge ranch as well as the hogan course at trophey club.

[Sam-Tee-Time]

.............dfw society which is through club corp.  all you have to do is join one of the club corp clubs and then from that you pay a small (believe it is $40 a month) and you have access to a number of club corp properties.  i know a lot of people have joined one of the city clubs (small intiation fee and small annual fee) and then join this and play all the courses.  i have a friend who has done this and just played the dye course at stonebridge ranch as well as the hogan course at trophey club.

43501[/snapback]

 

I play at GreatSouthwest, which just got purchased by Palmer Golf Management. Previously - when they were owned by AmericanGolf, we had a fee like this, but PalmerGolf doesn't have that sort of program.

 

My main beef is the CROWDS. Private, public, or Semi-Private - I just want a TEE TIME, and a more relaxed course on weekday evenings.

[Mikolar]

Placebo,

 

Being a member of a private club is a function of the value of your time and the quality that you want. I, like most older players learned on muni tracks because that's all I could afford.

When I could, I joing a club and am now a member at two (one being a resort course). I retain my membership at the smaller, more private club becuase so many things are better -- I can play most times that I want without too much of a wait...I will generally know someone there when I'm looking to join a game...the practice area is so much bigger and better....the pros keep the pace of play going....in general the quality overall and the value for the my time now is much, much better than waiting on a tee time and enjoying my round.

 

Daily fee and municipal courses have their place and there are some wonderful ones around. But, I've found that as membershps decline at clubs around the country, most people (if they try at all) can find a good club with a decent deal. It may cost more than playing once a week at the local muni but probably not a lot more than playing four or five times a month at a nice daily fee.

 

The value of your time, and the quality you seek are your only questions.

[Mikolar]

Sorry, I forget one addition to my post....in fact, the reason for my post.

 

Most clubs are not owned by the members.

 

Find one that it.....the best clubs are owned by members (preferably mostly golfers) who decide how much things cost and how the club is managed. Get on the finance or greens committee and make the decisions that impact the condition of that club.

[RSchaffer29]

just wanna throw in the fact that a lot of clubs simply charge more for membership fees and, sometimes, members are willing to pay it

 

I think we may be overlooking this

[vanquish007]

I understand one’s beef with respect to not having to deal with the crowds that one might expect at a public or even semi-private golf club, as well as the sanctity of being able to enjoy a relaxed evening round by yourself to work on your game. I respect that as one who would enjoy exactly the same had I the money to afford a private golf club membership. Make no mistake, had I the means I probably would. But till that day comes (or doesn’t) I will continue to strategically time when and where I play to achieve the satisfaction that ‘Gentlemen’ of the game strive for.

 

I do not represent Tour GCX or any organization like them, but I can’t imagine that any private club (under monetary constraints or not) would ‘open the floodgates’ to a slew of non-members to the point of 1) negatively impacting the enjoyment of the club by its esteemed members or 2) negatively impacting the condition of the course itself (tee boxes, divots, ball marks and trash). It’s just not smart in my opinion, and from a business perspective is a ‘risky’ proposition. The last thing you want to do is alienate members who pay a great deal of money to be there.

 

I do not claim to be an expert on the subject of ‘reciprocity’ but I don’t think it’s a new thing with respect to private golf clubs (if there’s anyone more knowledgeable than me, feel free to chime in). There are obvious risks involved as those that I stated above; but I’m sure are very calculated risks. No one wants to lose in this situation. I would have to believe that ‘reciprocity’ in these cases was something that kind of slipped under the radar in the past. In the case of Tour GCX, it has probably brought it structure. With that, I think it’s something that is being talked about out loud now and is a new kind of ‘dirty word’.

 

The real question might be: As a member of a private club, if ‘reciprocity’ never cramped your style before you knew it existed and had structure, will it now that it does?

[Evil R1]

If you read the article it says that the tee times offered are not at peak hours, therefore effecting play as little as possible.  Kinda funny me and my brother came up with this same Idea like three weeks ago, always happens doesnt it

43558[/snapback]

 

Understand, and while I don't know all the numbers. When you look at Westchester Country Club in NY it's uber expensive and exclusive. To get in it's silly like a 7 year waiting list, $100,000 just to join, and like $40,000 a year in dues, along with a guaranteed amount that you spend on food at the Country Club.

 

Now, Say I've been a member for 10 years and have invested 1/2 Million Dollars to be part of this uber elite country club, and then someone pays $6,000 and gets to play at my country club, I would be pissed. That's my only point, I don't think that I would be as worried about my ability to get my tee time or crowds, etc. It's just that I pay X to play (granted, I have much more access, and better options) and then you pay a small fraction of that to also play. :fool:

 

Like I said, I'm not part of a private country club, so I really don't know all the details about membership, nor do I currently have the means of being part of a private country club. That's just how I see it.

 

Thanks,

[QbSpanka11]

Not all country clubs are owned by the members. If you pay to join a private gym you have no ownership whatsoever in the way that gym is used. Also, if your club is selling tee times to outside guests its because your members are not using the club to their full potential, or you don't have enough members. It can be said that the tee times sold are making up for lack of usage, and if the club were being fully utilized, you would notice no difference in how the backups/teetimes/food stand are. That said, your club has to sell outings to make up for the lack of members/money. So you as a golfer would notice no difference in a club that has x ammount of members that play, or a club that has x-y members and sells y outside tee times. It is just not financially feasible to not get the fullest monetary potential out of a golf course, private or not. If it is struggling, either they sell those tee times, or you and your people (some of which aren't playing so they won't) pay more.

 

Jeff

[Placebo]

Thank you all, both club members and non-club members, for all the insight you have provided. Everyone who has posted here has made some good points and given me lots of food for thought.

 

Also, and more importantly, thanks for keeping it civil and no personal attacks. That is what makes this site shine above the rest! :fool:

 

I am going to digest some of this information and probably post on this topic some more tomorrow. In the meantime I want to ask the ones that are opposed to this idea this question: Is there anything that you can think of that would make this idea more acceptable at your club? In other words make it more of a, "win win" situation.

 

Thanks again everyone.

[QbSpanka11]

To clarify.. I am not a CC member, I work in Golf Operations at one. So my post was just explaning the other side ( i enjoy playing devild's advocate ) If i were a member, I'd be upset as well.. IF someone were making me wait, or hurting my abilty to play golf. I just don't think as a whole, members are affected by things like this.

 

Jeff

[Evil R1]

Not all country clubs are owned by the members. If you pay to join a private gym you have no ownership whatsoever in the way that gym is used.  Also, if your club is selling tee times to outside guests its because your members are not using the club to their full potential, or you don't have enough members.  It can be said that the tee times sold are making up for lack of usage, and if the club were being fully utilized, you would notice no difference in how the backups/teetimes/food stand are.  That said, your club has to sell outings to make up for the lack of members/money.  So you as a golfer would notice no difference in a club that has x ammount of members that play, or a club that has x-y members and sells y outside tee times.  It is just not financially feasible to not get the fullest monetary potential out of a golf course, private or not.  If it is struggling, either they sell those tee times, or you and your people (some of which aren't playing so they won't) pay more.

 

Jeff

43580[/snapback]

 

I understand your point, but I would think that there is no additional cost for tee times and that would be included in your membership, so if no one uses the course for a month, it shouldn't matter, b/c the Country Club still got paid in the way of membership dues.

 

This is a bit of a stretch but look at it this way. If I rent a car from Hertz and the car sits idle for a month, technically it's not getting the fullest monetary potential out of rental car. Does that mean Hertz should re-rent the car out after I paid for is as long as they promise to have the car back to me when I want to use it so it has no affect on my rental expirience?

 

Is there anything that you can think of that would make this idea more acceptable at your club? In other words make it more of a, "win win" situation.

43587[/snapback]

 

For me (and again, totally hypothetical) I would say probably not. I think it would all come's down to Value for your money. I would think people join CC's for a reason, and alot more than just Golf, I would think it's also a social expirience also. Even if you open up the course from Private to Semi-Private or the time sharing like memberships, you change the dynamic of the membership. Even if the club was to reduce the Membership Dues. You would see alot more strangers out on the course and around the club house. You would probably loose that sence of community/famliy that I would expect would develop with a limited number of members, items such as this. I would expect that these country clubs or private golf courses would lose alot of their members to other private courses where they will find the environment that originally attracted them to the course in the first place.

 

And the last reason, well, maybe I'm just reaching here but...

 

I would think that if you spend a ton of $$$ to be part of a private course where everything is first-rate and top-shelf you have a vested interest in keeping it that way. Now we all know that everyone replaces divots, repairs the greens, rakes the bunkers, and drives 90º across the fairway. But I would go out on a limb and say that members (as a whole) of a private course make an extra special effort to do this so that their beautiful course that they spend lot 'o mula to play on is alway prestine. Where as someone that only plays at a course 15 times a year might not make such an effort.

 

One last thing, I don't want anyone to think I'm being an Word not allowed to them over this. I don't belong to a club, so I honestly don't care, I'm just giving my point of view if I was to pay the stupid amount of money they ask for memberships in Westchester Country Club. I just like to play Devils Advocate because, well, I'm an ENTP ( Read: Myers Briggs ) and that's what we do best :fool:

 

Thanks,

[Sam-Tee-Time]

.........................I would also be mad, but Im just saying that the statement saying that the course would be too busy just doesnt hold up, its not like they are overloading the course or giving them the coveted tee time.

43584[/snapback]

 

I have to respectfully disagree with this statement. If you allow someone an "Inch", they'll take a "Mile", it's human nature to get away with anything they can. Let me give you a couple of examples:

 

* Before I went private, I played plenty of "Semi-Private" courses. They ALWAYS gave me the tee times I wanted, and once I was on the course - if I were paired with a member, invariably the conversation would turn to "how did you manage to get this tee time"? I never recall being pushed to off hours or desolate tee times.

 

* My (Private) course occasionally has tournaments and "outings" that are open to the public. During these occasions (there was one just last weekend), the course is CLOSED to members that did not partake in the tournament. I showed up at the course last Sunday morning (because I forgot about this event), and there were NO range balls, as the range was closed, and of course - I couldn't play on the course whatsoever. So I spent about an hour on the putting green and went home. I was not a happy golfer on this day.

 

* Any proshop employee is going to fill up the tee times as best they can. Undoubtedly - if a NON member asks for a time - the proshop will place them in open slots, and set a reservation. I seriously doubt that the proshop is intelligent (and conscientious) enough to block out enough open times to allow members to play - they're simply going to fill out the tee sheet as full as they can, especially on a Saturday or Sunday morning.

 

Now suppose I (as a Member) walk up to the proshop, and look for a tee time. Do you honestly think that the Proshop is going to kick the non-member off the teesheet to allow me to play? NO WHEY. NYET. NINE. NOT. NO. First of all - they won't recognize the members or non-members by looking at the tee sheet. Secondly - there may be another proshop employee that walked up, and was not aware of the non-member on the tee sheet - they would simply assume it's a member's tee time. They'll probably tell me "I'm sorry sir - the times are full - would you like to play at another time?"

 

In this event - the non-member would get to play, I wouldn't.

 

* As I posted earlier, before I joined my club, I heavily investigated a "semi-private" course that allowed non-members to play. I spent a LOT of time in the proshop and 1st tee, and asked a lot of questions about the tee times, and who was a member vs. a non-member, and how they treat the assignment of tee times.

 

Know what their answer was? "We fill it up as fast as we can." I asked them if they would kick off a non-member (if a member walked up and wanted to play), and they said "NO - the only preference we allow members is the ability to make tee times 3 days in advance of any non member, but we will NOT release the tee time spot to defer to a member on a last minute basis".

 

Before I went private, I played a LOT of public golf at most every course in our area (I live in Dallas TX). Every semi-private course never had the open slots, and the freedom of playing as a fully private facility. I pay GOOD money for the privilege of a more open course, and flexibility with tee times.

 

As I posted before, it would make me furious to see the introduction of non-members filling up the times, especially at discounted prices from I pay on a monthly basis.

[Debit]

It's been a long time since I investigated the whys and wherefores of a club membership. Back then, there was reciprocity among the clubs except for the uber expensive 2 in the area. Those 2 only grant reciprocity to members of comparable courses. The reciprocity was carefully defined and circumstances specified when a member of club A could play on club B. All of the clubs also had a stipulation about the number of rounds that an individual could play annually as a guest -- generally 4 to 6. The purpose of that was to keep a bunch of buddies from pooling their resources to join and then playing as guests of the one in whose name the membership was actually entered. Were I a member of a private club, I would be seriously upset with the outlined scheme. The whole point of the membership is prestige and exclusivity. Not so if the managment permits the course to become a "public" venue in the afternoon or even on Wednesdays.