www.TourTempo.com

[JackB1]

question for Tempoman.....

 

your system is intriguing, but one thing is questionable. Since you need a different tempo for short irons, mid irons & drivers/woods.....how do you get the tempo speed locked into your head? With the TourTempo, I could get that one song into my head and keep it there all round, but with this system, I need to keep 3 different rhythms in my head and it's hard to keep a "sound effect" in your head. It might help to put the Core Tempo Tones to a little beat with music. That would make it easier to "lock it into your head".

[Tempoman]

Actually there is a constant that doesn't change. That's your downswing to impact time. For short irons, mid irons, and woods (including your putter), the downswing to impact time is the same, only the backswing time varies slightly. For Phil Mickelson, the range from wedge to driver is 2.3-2.8. The fact that Tour Tempo has only one fixed 3.0 backswing ratio may make it easier to remember but what if your actual backswing ratio is 2.4 for short irons and 2.7 for your driver? Practicing all swings with 3.0 forces your wedge to be the same time as your driver. I think it would be better to adapt a training aid to your swing rather than force fitting your swing to a training aid.

[JackB1]

Actually there is a constant that doesn't change. That's your downswing to impact time. For short irons, mid irons, and woods (including your putter), the downswing to impact time is the same, only the backswing time varies slightly. For Phil Mickelson, the range from wedge to driver is 2.3-2.8. The fact that Tour Tempo has only one fixed 3.0 backswing ratio may make it easier to remember but what if your actual backswing ratio is 2.4 for short irons and 2.7 for your driver? Practicing all swings with 3.0 forces your wedge to be the same time as your driver. I think it would be better to adapt a training aid to your swing rather than force fitting your swing to a training aid.

 

all I'm saying is the different tempos make it harder to "remember".  I guess the best thing would be to train with a mp3 player and then hope you retain those tempos on the course.

[grlichti]

Based on a question I had here a few eeeks ago, I Bought it, read it, used it. Within 15 minutes of working with CD (I ripped and burned them to my iPod) was striking the ball sick good. I mean good enough that I was literally laughing out loud on the range (picture the priest golfer in Caddy Shack when playing in the thunder storm).

 

However, I did run into a weakness that made me give it a 4 rather than a 5. More accurate would be a 9 out of 10. Really, two issues. First, there is not enough of a "support" system for it. If only it had an active forum on their website much like a mini version of GolfWRX.

 

Second, and this was most problematic, was over time, my backswing was getting quicker thus I was overswinging on my backswing. I'd still be at "set" and "Impact tones" at the correct time. I am very flexible which is good, but it allows me to get into the bad habit of swinging my shoulders behind the ball and the club way past parallel ala Bubba Watson/John Daly, (except my left foot stays flat and my left arm stays straight) though with much worse results! Obviously ball striking suffered a lot. Once I learned what I was doing and conciously slowed the backswing down again, I was back to a proper turn and was nailing it again.

 

That said, I would so highly recommend Tour Tempo to anybody. If it is good enough to be used by, among others Paddy, and the reviews are overwhelmingly positive, what have you got to lose? It is almost a holy grail as far as I ma concerned. One caveat is you must have pretty solid swing fundamentals IMO or start getting them as you learn tempo.

 

So now my only dilemma is to either a) move to a faster tone thus giving me less time to reach the top of the backswing, or b) find some means to "groove" that position so I do not pass it. Anybody got any thoughts?

[JackB1]

So now my only dilemma is to either a) move to a faster tone thus giving me less time to reach the top of the backswing, or b) find some means to "groove" that position so I do not pass it. Anybody got any thoughts?

 

Tour Tempo cannot stop you from going too far in the backswing.  But you can try using a faster tone that prevents you from going too far, but you need to experiment to find a tone that lets you swing in tempo comfortably, without feeling rushed or too slow.  You need a key to help you "feel" when you are at your optimum backswing point.  Working with a mirror might help.

[happyroman]

The timings on my original post are correct. You can do the math. For those who may be sceptical, here it is for you. Novasel was viewing video at 30 frames per sec. That means each frame is 1/30 sec or 0.0333333333...

 

For each swing ratio, multiply the number of frames by 1/30 sec.

 

21/7 = 28 frames = 28/30 sec = 0.93 sec from beginning of the swing to impact. Divide 60 sec/minute by 0.93 sec/beat and you get 64.3 beats per minute. That equates to one beat at the start of the swing and one beat at impact. Since the whole point of the Tour Tempo system is to try and feel the 3:1 ratio, I subdivide the BPM into three parts and get 64.3 X 3 = 192.9, rounded off is 193 BPM, feeling the rythem of 1-2-3, 1-2-3, etc. with the beginning of the swing and impact always occurring on each beat 1. Count 1-2-3 over and over and think of the swing like the pendulum of a clock where it passes the bottom of the swing arc at beat 1 each time.

 

The rest of the tempos are as follows:

 

24/8 = 32/30 = 1.07; 60/1.07 = 56.3; 56.3 X 3 = 168.8 or 169.

27/9 = 36/30 = 1.2; 60/1.2 = 50; 50 X 3 = 150.

30/10 = 40/30 = 1.33; 60/1.33 = 45; 45 X 3 = 115.

 

I don't mean to be a pain about this, but as an engineer and a former professional musician, I have an understanding of both the tempo aspect associated with using a metronome and the mathimatical background to know that the above formulas are correct.

 

Also, if you're still not convinced, check out page 25 in the book, where Novosel gives the elapsed times for the different swing tempos as 0.93 sec (21/7), 1.06 sec (24/8) and 1.2 sec (27/9). The only difference between our numbers is due to rounding error on the 24/8 tempo (he uses 0.33 sec/frame instead of 0.333333...).

 

These tempo markings will feel quite fast when compared to the CD or MP3 downloads that come with the book. Again, that is because he inserts 0.2 sec between the first and second beat to account for human reaction time. That is why he emphasizes that one is not to anticipate the tone, but instead, one must wait until they hear the tone and then react to it.

 

Being a trained musician, I prefer to get the feel of the tempo and then match my movements to the beat, just as if I were practicing a piece of music. This way, I can slow the tempo down to a comfortable pace, one where I can achieve success, and then gradually move the tempo up while maintaining the success rate. This may or may not help you, but I find it helps me enough that I wanted to share it with others.

[happyroman]

Based on a question I had here a few eeeks ago, I Bought it, read it, used it. Within 15 minutes of working with CD (I ripped and burned them to my iPod) was striking the ball sick good. I mean good enough that I was literally laughing out loud on the range (picture the priest golfer in Caddy Shack when playing in the thunder storm).

 

However, I did run into a weakness that made me give it a 4 rather than a 5. More accurate would be a 9 out of 10. Really, two issues. First, there is not enough of a "support" system for it. If only it had an active forum on their website much like a mini version of GolfWRX.

 

Second, and this was most problematic, was over time, my backswing was getting quicker thus I was overswinging on my backswing. I'd still be at "set" and "Impact tones" at the correct time. I am very flexible which is good, but it allows me to get into the bad habit of swinging my shoulders behind the ball and the club way past parallel ala Bubba Watson/John Daly, (except my left foot stays flat and my left arm stays straight) though with much worse results! Obviously ball striking suffered a lot. Once I learned what I was doing and conciously slowed the backswing down again, I was back to a proper turn and was nailing it again.

 

That said, I would so highly recommend Tour Tempo to anybody. If it is good enough to be used by, among others Paddy, and the reviews are overwhelmingly positive, what have you got to lose? It is almost a holy grail as far as I ma concerned. One caveat is you must have pretty solid swing fundamentals IMO or start getting them as you learn tempo.

 

So now my only dilemma is to either a) move to a faster tone thus giving me less time to reach the top of the backswing, or b) find some means to "groove" that position so I do not pass it. Anybody got any thoughts?

 

I find that stopping my backswing at the proper point (for me) only occurs when I am properly coiling into my right side. As long as I focus on a few simple keys, my backswing stops itself because I literally can't turn any further. The keys I work on are as follows:

 

1) Keep the weight on the inside (arch) of my right foot and maintain the flex in my right knee. This keeps my hips from over rotating and sets up a good brace into which I can coil the upper body.

 

2) Keep my connection between my upper arms and upper torso. When I allow my left arm to collapse across my chest, I have real problems with my swing.

 

3) I try not to raise my arms too high. Focusing on keeping my hands relatively low helps to flatten my swing so it is more around my body, allowing me to better feel the coil. I try to have more of a one plane swing, rather than a two plane. If I raise my arms too much or too early in the backswing, I find I don't turn my shoulders enough and have more of an outside-in swing path.

[Bnmakr1]

I just bought tour tempo and the tracks on the book's CD are completely horrible. Anyone have the nice soundtracks you get from buying the CD? 24/8 is my tempo.

[MizDean16]

Just picked this up a few days ago on a lunch break and downloaded it to my iPod. Listened to the beat for about an hour at work and then hit a small bucket of balls (30ish) before playing a round. I actually kept my iPod on during the round as I was still trying to get used to the tempo. I went out and shot 8 strokes lower than my best round in the last 2 years. Oh, and this time I was playing from the back tees and I managed that score despite two quadruple bogeys where bad tee shots and later water came into play. Solid props for this after one day. I can't wait to see what happens after a few weeks of practice.

[Tempoman]

Since the whole point of Tour Tempo is to stress the 3:1 ratio of backswing time over downswing to impact time, you would actually multiply your 56.3 bpm figure by four to get 225bpm:

"24/8 = 32/30 = 1.07; 60/1.07 = 56.3; 56.3 X 4 = 225bpm."

 

That's because the 3:1 ratio indicates total beats from takeaway to impact of 3+1 = 4.

Beat (start of takeaway), beat, beat, beat (start of downswing), beat(impact) at 225bpm would be equivalent to Novosel's 24/8 using a metronome.

 

In addition, the 3:1 ratio does not apply to all swings. There are many on tour that have swing ratios of 2.2 to 2.8. Within the same golfer, the swing ratio can vary from 2.1 for a chip to 2.3 for a full wedge to 2.4 for a 7 iron and 2.8 for a driver. The shorter your backswing, the smaller the swing ratio. So, force fitting your swing to an arbitrary 3:1 ratio for all clubs and all golfers doesn't make too much sense.

[JackB1]

I just bought tour tempo and the tracks on the book's CD are completely horrible. Anyone have the nice soundtracks you get from buying the CD? 24/8 is my tempo.

 

you can get it here:

http://cdbaby.com/cd/tourtempo2

[grlichti]

...So, force fitting your swing to an arbitrary 3:1 ratio for all clubs and all golfers doesn't make too much sense.

 

I am no expert by any stretch, but I find it curious that when one looks at the Tour players' tempo swing ratio in the book under the various tempos, that the better the player, the more accurate the ratio. Put another way, the players who are held up to the world as having great swings and are the winningest in every case but Wie, have/had that 3:1 ratio EXACTLY. And if one varies the ratio by a slight margin (say a 20:7 or 27:8) the list reads like a veritable who's who og golfers past and present.

 

For example, Tiger, Hogan, Nicklaus, Snead, Philly Mac, Wie, Price, Middlecoff all have perfect 3:1 ratios and the lesser players seem to vary a bit. My guess is that for the average amateur player (meaning anyone who is not a solid scratch player) you could probably do much worse that "force fitting" your swing to a 3:1 ratio.

 

But I imagine just like there are lots of 12 handicaps that stop lessons because the pro "messed up their swing" there are a lot of slightly better than average golfers who "pooh pooh" the concept for no measurable reason. And no, Tempoman, I am not saying you personally are a crap golfer as I read your posts above and you obviously understand the concept well.

 

In answer to your elapsed time statement, that is true and, in my opinion, is the potential achilles heal of the program: if one speeds up the swing, one can still hit all the "tones" at the right moments. Similarly, changing the backswing length can do the same. I am still experimenting with s what feels to me to be a glacial backswing when using a 24:8 so as to not go back too far, which is easy to do if I am focusing solely on the tones. Nonetheless, Tour Tempo yields some remarkable reults for me so long as I pay attention which is really what practice is all about.

 

The Yale guy who invented Sonic Golf found the same ratios to be true among the best players and the worse the player the further they varied from the ratio.

 

I am not suggesting it is elixar on CD, but just as they pretty much suggest you "force fit" your grip, posture and swing plane to a narrow range, this is likely another missing ingredient in the majority of amateurs.

[fishlips723]

I just went to Amazon.com and saw bunch of different products.From a hard cover book for $18 to a Micro player for $109.

What is the difference and does the book have cd that goes with it??

[grlichti]

I just went to Amazon.com and saw bunch of different products.From a hard cover book for $18 to a Micro player for $109.

What is the difference and does the book have cd that goes with it??

 

 

IMO, I would simply buy the book which does come with the CD. Careful if you buy it used to make certain it has the CD as many used ones do not. The book is critical, I believe, because it provides quantifiable reasons as to why Tour Tempo is what it is. And, as mentioned above, it gives long lists of famous players and their tempos. Blindly following some musical rythms does not seem to me to be the best way to do the program.

 

The little ear piece you refer to is just a digital player. I took the tracks and ripped them and put them on my iPod. Before doing that, I just used my portable CD player to experiment until I found the tempo(s) that was most comfortable for me. Just my opinion though.

[Tempoman]

The question is: what does "3:1 exactly" mean? Novosel admits all of his measurements have an error of 1 frame either way. He could be off -1 frame for the backswing and +1 off for the downswing so a 24/8 would actually be a 23/9 which is a 2.56 ratio. I have been using 60fps video and have found that many pros have swing ratios more in the 2.3-2.8 range. The swing ratio is smaller for wedges and larger for woods. It's all a matter of known accuracy. Phil Mickelson has a 2.3:1 ratio for his wedge and goes up to 2.8 for his driver. Is he not "one of the best"? The 3:1 ratio was a best estimate using 30fps video. You can't say with certainty that anyone's swing ratio is EXACTLY 3:1 using 30fps video with slow shutter speeds which blur the club's true position at impact. I am not aware of how and if Dr Grober took video of professionals and concurred with the 3:1 ratio. He did write a white paper that developed a "spring-based" mathematical model of a golf swing (for Tour Tempo) whose conclusions pointed to the possibility of the golf swing having a 3:1 ratio of backswing to downswing to impact.

[grlichti]

Touché Tempoman. :black eye:

 

I did include Phil as one of the examples at 24:8 though I called him Philly Mac. Couldn't leave Phil the Thrill out.

 

Either way, you make a very astute point and one I cannot argue with too much, because you are more expert than me and have the data to back you up! I think you agree that Tempo is important though (with your screen name, you just gotta!) and that consistent tempo is even more so, yes? So in one sense, even if it is artificial (I am not saying it is, but for the sake of argument) practicing to groove a consistent tempo, especially one that "feels" good cannot be a bad thing. Or can it?

 

Especially when we are talking a tolerance of +/- 33/1000th of a second on backswing and downswing.

 

And thanks for not taking my debate personally. It was not meant to be.

[Tempoman]

You are absolutely right, tempo is very important. After the grip and alignment, what could possibly be more important than tempo.

 

In regard to Tour Tempo, it's all a matter of measurement accuracy. Novosel used 30 fps and put tempo on the map so to speak. No one before him ever thought of tempo as a measurable parameter of the golf swing. You either had slow tempo or fast tempo. What I have done is take a closer look at tempo using a camera with twice the resolution (60fps). Many now have 300fps cameras. Beyond 60fps it becomes very tedious to determine when the backswing ends and the downswing begins. On closer inspection of a number of professionals, I've determined that the 3:1 ratio is not a magic number that fits everyone. I guess if you round up everything from 2.3 to 2.9 and round down anything above 3 to get 3, all swings would have a 3:1 ratio. It's like trying to tell time from a watch that has a missing minute hand, all times would be to the nearest hour.

 

One of the "rules" that Novosel used was to consider the beginning of the downswing to be the first frame in which the clubhead just begins moving counter clockwise (for a right hander). Some of the downswings I've analyzed begin with a squat and the trunk uncoiling while the clubhead remains stationary or even continues moving clockwise as if the backswing was still in progress. This can account for 2 or 3 frames at 60fps.

 

I developed CoreTempo tones to provide more resolution in the overall tempo of the swing as well as provide swing ratios from 2.1 to 3.2 in .1 increments. TourTempo provides 27/9 24/8 21/7 and 18/6 which is equivalent to 100bpm, 112bpm. 129bpm, and 150bpm. CoreTempo tones provides 78bpm, 82bpm, 86bpm, 90bpm, 95bpm, 100bpm, 106bpm, 112bpm, 120bpm, and 129bpm, each supporting swing ratios of 2.1 to 3.2. The 90bpm tempo, which is not covered by TourTempo is the tempo of David Toms and Vaugn Taylor.

 

TourTempo provides "markers" or beats to indicate when key parts of the golf swing should occur with a human response time built in of .2sec. I don't know for sure if everyone has a .2sec response delay. I would think that this varies too, especially with age. CoreTempo is a continuous tone whose pitch rises and falls based on a model of a perfect golf swing's clubhead speed. It doesn't need a response time because the continuous tone provides a "trend" that the golfer can anticipate, track, and follow. (see coretempo.com for a more detailed explanation)

[grlichti]

Coretempo.com, Huh? I will check that out. Certainly explains the screen name!

[ZombieDave]

The timings on my original post are correct. You can do the math. For those who may be sceptical, here it is for you. Novasel was viewing video at 30 frames per sec. That means each frame is 1/30 sec or 0.0333333333...

 

For each swing ratio, multiply the number of frames by 1/30 sec.

 

21/7 = 28 frames = 28/30 sec = 0.93 sec from beginning of the swing to impact. Divide 60 sec/minute by 0.93 sec/beat and you get 64.3 beats per minute. That equates to one beat at the start of the swing and one beat at impact. Since the whole point of the Tour Tempo system is to try and feel the 3:1 ratio, I subdivide the BPM into three parts and get 64.3 X 3 = 192.9, rounded off is 193 BPM, feeling the rythem of 1-2-3, 1-2-3, etc. with the beginning of the swing and impact always occurring on each beat 1. Count 1-2-3 over and over and think of the swing like the pendulum of a clock where it passes the bottom of the swing arc at beat 1 each time.

 

The rest of the tempos are as follows:

 

24/8 = 32/30 = 1.07; 60/1.07 = 56.3; 56.3 X 3 = 168.8 or 169.

27/9 = 36/30 = 1.2; 60/1.2 = 50; 50 X 3 = 150.

30/10 = 40/30 = 1.33; 60/1.33 = 45; 45 X 3 = 115.

 

I don't mean to be a pain about this, but as an engineer and a former professional musician, I have an understanding of both the tempo aspect associated with using a metronome and the mathimatical background to know that the above formulas are correct.

 

Also, if you're still not convinced, check out page 25 in the book, where Novosel gives the elapsed times for the different swing tempos as 0.93 sec (21/7), 1.06 sec (24/8) and 1.2 sec (27/9). The only difference between our numbers is due to rounding error on the 24/8 tempo (he uses 0.33 sec/frame instead of 0.333333...).

 

These tempo markings will feel quite fast when compared to the CD or MP3 downloads that come with the book. Again, that is because he inserts 0.2 sec between the first and second beat to account for human reaction time. That is why he emphasizes that one is not to anticipate the tone, but instead, one must wait until they hear the tone and then react to it.

 

Being a trained musician, I prefer to get the feel of the tempo and then match my movements to the beat, just as if I were practicing a piece of music. This way, I can slow the tempo down to a comfortable pace, one where I can achieve success, and then gradually move the tempo up while maintaining the success rate. This may or may not help you, but I find it helps me enough that I wanted to share it with others.

 

While I'm not doubting your calculations regarding the exact timings and frame rates etc, the BPMs you've given simply don't match actual the music on the CDs. Run the tracks through a BPM counter, such as Ableton or Seraton and you get:

 

161.5 bpm for 21:7

144 bpm for 24:8

129.5 bpm for 27:9

 

However, the "swing" "set" "through" stabs aren't exactly on the beats, which is why there's a difference between the music BPMs, and the framerate timings.

[Tempoman]

Let's take 24/8 as an example. If we just look at the basis of the 24/8 timing and forget the human response factor that is built-in, there would be a four count beat.

 

The fundamental beat is the 8 frames to impact from the top of the backswing.

8 * .03333 = .0266 seconds.

A period of .0266 seconds translates to 225 bpm.

The backswing is 3 times longer than the downswing to impact so it gets three beats.

So there is a beat, beat, beat, then, the downswing and the 4th beat at impact, 24/8, 3 beats + 1 beat = 4 beats.

 

Due to the advancing of the top of the backswing beat and the impact beat by .2 seconds, any attempt to make sense of this in beats per minute (from the actual music) is pointless.

 

On the TourTempo 24/8 track, the first beat starts the backswing. We need a 2nd beat at the top of the backswing which would be 3 * .0266seconds or at t=.8 seconds followed by a third beat for impact at t=1.07seconds. Since Novosel thinks you can't hear the 2nd tone (top of backswing/start of downswing) and react instantaneously, he advances it by .2 sec. So instead of the 2nd beat occurring at t=.8sec, it actually occurs at t=.6sec. The third beat occurs at t=1.07 seconds. What is the actual beats per minute of the resulting advanced beat syncopated series? I have no idea.

What would be the purpose of knowing it? You can't set a metronome to provide at tick at t=0, a tock at t=.6sec and another tick at t=1.07 seconds anyway, it's aperiodic.

[JackB1]

Tempoman.....I understand your points that the TourTempo system isn't perfect.

But......the main points are valuable and are as follows:

 

1) most amateurs have too slow a tempo ("slow and low", etc)

2) find a tempo that works for you and ingrain it so you can repeat it

3) think of your tempo as a uncomplicated swing thought

4) use the correct song or beeps or whatever as a way to check your tempo or as a "reminder" between rounds or for practice.

 

My problem with your system is that it's hard to ingrain your swing "sounds" into your memory. But...I can hear my tourtempo tune in my head and repeat it almost perfectly on beat without hearing it constantly. I think the best system would be a combination of the two systems :)

[Tempoman]

JackB1,

I wasn't criticizing TourTempo specifically in the last post, I was trying to show that you can't determine what the tempo (in beats per minute metronome terms) is for the resulting TourTempo music tracks because of the structure of the beats. There are a lot of posts trying to determine what the metronome setting should be to match TourTempo and I'm saying it can't be done.

[ZombieDave]

JackB1,

I wasn't criticizing TourTempo specifically in the last post, I was trying to show that you can't determine what the tempo (in beats per minute metronome terms) is for the resulting TourTempo music tracks because of the structure of the beats. There are a lot of posts trying to determine what the metronome setting should be to match TourTempo and I'm saying it can't be done.

 

True, I agree with everything you've said. However, if you simply want to create your own tracks with the same tempo of the tourtempo tracks (which I alluded to earlier in the thread), then you need to use the BPMs I've given. You also, of course, have to place to stabs which prompt the swing movements in the relevant places, which are NOT on the beats.

 

The reason I've been interested in this is that the tracks are pretty boring, so I use Ableton to place the tour tempo tracks on top of other tracks, in the same way a DJ would put an acapella over another piece of music. The BPMs I've given are correct for this. (I'm a very experienced DJ so know what I'm doing in this respect).

 

If you want to remove the "human response factor" then those BPMs are of course irrelvant.

 

I don't actually understand why "frames per second" ever got used as the standard measurement for this. It just confuses matters, and was only ever relevant to the people using the slo-mo footage to identify the tempos used. It's a useless reference point for teaching others.

 

Another way of doing it is count to 3 on the backswing and 4 on the throughswing, which I find pretty useful.

[Tempoman]

You are right Zombie, using 30 frames as a measurement standard is not the best. It's because John Novosel discovered the 3:1 ratio reviewing video and counted frames, so that became his frame of reference. I use bpm because its a well known, well established measure of musical timing. Novosel has even trademarked the terms "24/8", "21/7", "18/6", and "27/9". I guess if he had been using a 60fps camera, he would have trademarked "48/16", "42/14", etc.,.

 

In addition, I really don't think the .2 second advancement of the top of backswing tone is necessary. Just as in music, if your drummer gives you an opening beat for a few measures, you can easily anticipate and follow it without needing a human response time built in to the drummer's beat.

[csrjr]

Tempoman.....I understand your points that the TourTempo system isn't perfect.

But......the main points are valuable and are as follows:

 

1) most amateurs have too slow a tempo ("slow and low", etc)

2) find a tempo that works for you and ingrain it so you can repeat it

3) think of your tempo as a uncomplicated swing thought

4) use the correct song or beeps or whatever as a way to check your tempo or as a "reminder" between rounds or for practice.

 

My problem with your system is that it's hard to ingrain your swing "sounds" into your memory. But...I can hear my tourtempo tune in my head and repeat it almost perfectly on beat without hearing it constantly. I think the best system would be a combination of the two systems :)

 

 

Hi guys - very informative thread going here - can anyone re-suggest a setting for a basic golf metronome ( beep - beep) to try and capture this 3:1 ratio? I have no experience and am practically tone deaf. Figured I'd try the one I have prior to paying $100

 

All help appreciated!

 

JackB1: Thread-jack warning - does that niblick work? What do you use it for? Thanks!

[Tempoman]

You really can't use a metronome in terms that can match CoreTempo.com or TourTempo.com tones, but, I will suggest a few approximations.

 

1. Let's say you want to emulate the "24/8" tones. That is 24*.03333s = .8sec backswing time and 8 * .03333s = .267sec downswing to impact time.

You would set your metronome to 225 bpm. It will be very fast and hard to follow but, start the takeaway on the first beat, count a beat, count another beat, on the next beat, start the downswing, and on the 4th beat strike the ball. So, tick, tock, tick, tock, impact.

 

2. Another way which is easier to follow is takeaway and impact. Set the metronome to correspond to the timing of takeaway to impact. Using the "24/8" timing, Takeaway to Impact is (24+8)*.0333s = 1.067sec which is 60sec per min/1.067s = 56.25 bpm. Set the metronome to 56, takeaway the club on the tick and strike the ball on the tock. However, using this method, you are given no indication of when to start the downswing and knowing that you are following the "3:1" ratio. You may not have a 3:1 ratio anyway. Many do not. Swing ratios can go from 2.1 to as high as 4.

 

Hope this helps.

[happyroman]

Since the whole point of Tour Tempo is to stress the 3:1 ratio of backswing time over downswing to impact time, you would actually multiply your 56.3 bpm figure by four to get 225bpm:

"24/8 = 32/30 = 1.07; 60/1.07 = 56.3; 56.3 X 4 = 225bpm."

 

That's because the 3:1 ratio indicates total beats from takeaway to impact of 3+1 = 4.

Beat (start of takeaway), beat, beat, beat (start of downswing), beat(impact) at 225bpm would be equivalent to Novosel's 24/8 using a metronome.

 

In addition, the 3:1 ratio does not apply to all swings. There are many on tour that have swing ratios of 2.2 to 2.8. Within the same golfer, the swing ratio can vary from 2.1 for a chip to 2.3 for a full wedge to 2.4 for a 7 iron and 2.8 for a driver. The shorter your backswing, the smaller the swing ratio. So, force fitting your swing to an arbitrary 3:1 ratio for all clubs and all golfers doesn't make too much sense.

 

A 3:1 ratio is NOT the same as 3+1; it is 3 X 1 (or 3 divided by 1). The entire elapsed time actually starts at zero, but we usually don't say 0-1-2, 3; we say 1-2-3, 4. It is still a multiple of 3.

 

If you listen to the Tour Tempo Tracks, they are in the meter (in a musical sense) of 3/4 time, or a waltz tempo. Whether you listen to the beeps, the words (swing, set, through) or listen to the music, they are all in 3/4 time. With the beeps and words, the second beat is silent, so you get "swing", "______", "set", "through" or "beep", "____", "beep", "beep"; but they are all in threes.

 

The club is like a pendulum which passes the bottom of the arc on the downbeat of each three beat grouping. The other thing which is implied, but never explained, is that the entire swing actually covers six beats (1-2-3, 4-5-6), with the start of the swing at 1, impact at 4, and follow through occurring on 5 & 6.

 

Try this as a practice drill and swing continuously back and through with the club skipping along the turf on 1 and 4 while counting 1-2-3, 4-5-6 over and over. I suppose that one could subdivide the beat into any reasonable meter, but 3/4 seems the most natural.

[Tempoman]

The original questions was:

 

"Hi guys - very informative thread going here - can anyone re-suggest a setting for a basic golf metronome ( beep - beep) to try and capture this 3:1 ratio?"

 

The 24/8 tone is a 3:1 ratio. 3 Frames for the backswing and 1 Frame to impact.

 

A metronome is periodic, it can only repeat with the same timing so, we would choose 8 frames * .03333s/frame = .0266sec --> 225bpm as our basic tick. Then, we would get a 1st tick to start the backswing. Three ticks later (actually the 4th total tick) would be the signal to start the downswing. On the next tick (the 5th tick), impact should occur. The start occurs at t=0sec on the first tick, the top of the backswing occurs at t=.8sec on the 4th tick, and impact occurs at t= 1.066sec on the 5th tick. The in-between ticks are ignored.

These numbers provide exactly the 3:1 ratio of backswing to downswing to impact.

 

The happyroman 169bpm setting used to provide a 1-2-3 timing provides a tick at the start of the backswing and a 3rd tick precisely at impact at 1.066sec but, provides a top of backswing 2nd tick at .711 seconds instead of at .8 seconds. This would provide a 2.66:1 ratio instead of the 3:1 ratio. Not enough difference for anyone to perceive but, from a purely math point of view is not precisely the 3:1 ratio.

 

However, the 225bpm approach is way too fast to follow especially when you have to count all those beats. The 1-2-3 approach is better because it provides a beat to start, a beat at the top, and a beat at impact that is easy to follow (no beats that you don't need). The difference of 2.66:1 to 3:1 is miniscule and provides a good trade-off of accuracy to ease-of-use.

[HackerPratt]

sorry if I missed this, but does anyone know where i can just get the beats/tones for my ipod? I don't want the entire book, etc.

 

Thanks,

Pratt

 

PS-Interesting blog I read this morning about this subject....check it out at www.andrewricegolf.com

[happyroman]

I really need to get a life because I have been thinking about this way too much. On a purely mathematical sense, I agree with tempoman about the subdivision of the beats. For the 27/9 tempo, at 50 BPM, the correct subdivision would be 200 BPM.

 

However, when you listen to the tracks on the Tour Tempo CD, the beep/chirp and voice tracks are definitely in a triple meter, not 4/4, so there is an inconsistency there. I agree that subdividing the beat into fours (200, 225, etc.) is way too fast to be of any use.

 

I guess it comes down to whatever works for the individual. I like to think in a triple meter (which is intuitavely related to the 3:1 ratio concept). I assume that's why the tracks designed by Novosel are in three, not four. Anyway, to me the value is to foicus on matching the swing to the rhythm, with the beginning of the swing and impact both occurring on the downbeat.

 

Also, I do remember reading somewhere that Sam Snead used to whistle waltzes (which are in triple meter) as he walked down the fairway between shots. He said it helped him with his tempo. Seems to me his tempo was above average.