Adjusting lofts and lies

[jonnygrouville]

Currently paying something like three quid a club to have lofts and lies done. I like my lies slightly flat and have enough sets to now make it economic sense to be thinking about doing this myself.

 

Any experiences from first forays into bending clubs, recommendations, whatever, gratefully received.

 

Seem like a variety of options available in the UK. More budget end...

 

http://www.gamolagolf.co.uk/acatalog/Golfsmith_Iron_Bending_Vice.html

 

Still a lot more money than even my most expensive set of irons, but would be worth it after I have done four sets. Cost adds up if you need to buy a separate measuring set-up, bending bars and so on.

 

Then the all-singing, all-dancing...

 

http://www.gamolagolf.co.uk/acatalog/Golfsmith-Ultimate-Loft-Lie-Bending-Machine.html

 

There are a few inbetween too. Interested to hear thoughts.

 

Might be crazy, but I remember a pro mate of mine doing all of this in a vice, clamping the head in with, if I can remember, what looked like two brass bars. Old school, far more skilled method?

[birly-shirly]

The golfsmith model between those 2 came up on ebay a couple of years ago, I bought it for about £250 and I consider it money well spent.

It's still cheap compared to a new set of irons, and it basically lets you set any cheap set of irons off ebay just how you want them. For less money in total, I reckon you end up with a better playing set of irons than what you can buy in the shops. And of course, the more sets you buy and adjust, the cheaper it gets!

[BIG STU]

The method you stated with the old pro using a vise and a bar is strictly old school that's how we used to do it and check with a protractor and straight edge. I discussed this on another thread on WRX the other night. Really you do not have to have a fancy bending bar if you have at least a 14 inch pipe wrench and some flattened copper pipe to put in the jaws of the pipe wrench to prevent scarring

[HoldenCornfield]

My setup is very basic; much like the first link you listed. Its just a special vise for irons, and requires a bending bar. I bolted it to a block of 2x10 and mounted it on a mitre saw table. Here's a pic:

[attachment=2783724:CAM00015.jpg]


It's kind of a PIA to use because I can't really tell exactly how much I've bent the club until I put it back in the other vise and check it with the angle finder and level. Here's a pic showing how I check lie angle:

[attachment=2783742:CAM00012.jpg]


Here's one checking the loft angle:

[attachment=2783762:CAM00014.jpg]


The whole thing works and is very accurate with practice, and I've got less than $80 in all of it (found the vise and bending bar local from Craiglist). But if you expect to be bending irons more than once every couple of months, and you've got the money, I'd recommend one of the better machines. With practice I've gotten where I can adjust a full set in about an hour, but that's about as good as I can do since I often have to transfer each club back and forth several times between vises, first bending then checking to see if I've hit my targets, then back to the bending vise.

It's also a little tricky with the high lofted clubs because its very easy to end up making compound bends (adjusting loft and lie at the same time) when you don't really mean to.

[jonnygrouville]

Thanks gents.

The latter was very much what I was forming in my head if I wasn't going for a machine. My concerns were about the taking out to check, re-doing and so on, not only because it sounds a shag, but also as I would rather keep the amount of bends to a minimum to reduce the risk of damage.

Interesting. Might be raiding the piggy-bank some time soon...

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='jonnygrouville' timestamp='1433109682' post='11662374']
Thanks gents.

The latter was very much what I was forming in my head if I wasn't going for a machine. My concerns were about the taking out to check, re-doing and so on, not only because it sounds a shag, but also as [b]I would rather keep the amount of bends to a minimum to reduce the risk of damage.[/b]

Interesting. Might be raiding the piggy-bank some time soon...
[/quote]

If you're bending old forged clubs there isn't too much to worry about. I was trying to de-loft a Hogan Sure-On wedge 4 degrees one time and actually bent it the wrong way -- meaning I then had to bend about 8 degrees out of it. But it turned out fine. And they're very easy to bend too much because they're so soft.

On the other hand, I tried to bend a Snake Eyes wedge, supposedly forged, and it was all I could do to get 2 degrees out of it. I was very concerned it was going to snap. Many of the new club forgings aren't really forgings at all, methinks.

I won't hesitate to bend vintage irons, but I'm very reluctant to try anything modern, especially if they're not mine. A friend ask me about flattening his new Titleists. Uh-uh, no way.

[pdgolferman]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1433110930' post='11662486']
[quote name='jonnygrouville' timestamp='1433109682' post='11662374']
Thanks gents.

The latter was very much what I was forming in my head if I wasn't going for a machine. My concerns were about the taking out to check, re-doing and so on, not only because it sounds a shag, but also as [b]I would rather keep the amount of bends to a minimum to reduce the risk of damage.[/b]

Interesting. Might be raiding the piggy-bank some time soon...
[/quote]

I won't hesitate to bend vintage irons, but I'm very reluctant to try anything modern, especially if they're not mine. A friend ask me about flattening his new Titleists. Uh-uh, no way.
[/quote]

Me thinks a three-foot roll of that drivers side front wheel at 30 psi should be enough to flatten those titleists good-n-propper.
I like jeeps.
Pd

[birly-shirly]

Very impressed by Holden's improvised set up. Pretty sure that you could go even further and replace the Golfworks angle finder with a clinometer app.

[golfnut1964]

Holden that is exactly how i check loft lie very similiar bending machine as well(golfwrx value line is what i have)
I actually enjoy the process and the time it takes. Early weekend morning in my tinker shed with some light baroque trumpet music playing...very relaxing

[HoldenCornfield]

One good thing about this setup, as long as the earth's poles don't shift it gives you very, very accurate readings.

All kidding aside though, a lot of the bending machines need to be re-calibrated from time to time. They can absolutely tell you when you bend a club 2* (or whatever) from where you started, but you can't be absolutely sure that when it gives you a loft measurement of say, 42*, that it is exactly correct. Maybe some of the $2000+ machines can, but most of the ones I've seen cannot.

Still, if I had the money I'd rather have one of those and then use the levels and angle finder as backup or a calibration check.

BTW Birly, I can't take any credit for this setup, I found the information on how to do it in another forum on this site a few years ago. Just one of the many, many times I've been grateful for this website.

[birly-shirly]

Good points. I know that best practice would be to bend in my loft and lie machine, and measure separately. However, I'm inclined towards the view that static specs are limited value anyway - in the sense that the ultimate test of whether a club's lie is correct is a dynamic lie test, not its static measurements. Going from one model of club to another, with different shafts, head weights, and lengths, I think static measurements might get you in the ballpark but you'd still want to go through a process of hitting balls and working out whatever incremental adjustments you need for that particular set.

Or at least, that's one way in which I justify the investment I made in the loft and lie machine...

[pdgolferman]

HC.....
do you take your measurements from the shaft or 90* from the end of the hosel?
A tapered shaft must be good for +/- a couple of degrees
Regards
Pd

[NRJyzr]

[quote name='pdgolferman' timestamp='1433288285' post='11678054']
HC.....
do you take your measurements from the shaft or 90* from the end of the hosel?
A tapered shaft must be good for +/- a couple of degrees
Regards
Pd
[/quote]


An Über clubmaker with whom I'm familiar, from another forum, once talked about the tapered shaft effect on loft and lie readings. He said for Dynamic/Dynamic Gold shafts, the difference between tapered and parallel shafts was worth 1°.

I imagine any other True Temper shafts where each shaft in the set was manufactured individually would be similar. TTLiteXL, Dynalite, perhaps? <shrug>

The Rifle shafts were all manufactured as parallel shafts, with the tapered versions created by swaging the tips, so those need not apply. Not sure about Project X, though I believe they're constant weight, so likely similar to DG in this regard. Also not sure about the newer KBS shafts.

[HoldenCornfield]

[quote name='pdgolferman' timestamp='1433288285' post='11678054']
HC.....
do you take your measurements from the shaft or 90* from the end of the hosel?
A tapered shaft must be good for +/- a couple of degrees
Regards
Pd
[/quote]

From the shaft, close to the grip. Regarding the steps, that initially concerned me but the best I could tell by fiddling around it made a negligible difference..unlike the flattening effect of a Wrangler

[BIG STU]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1433109115' post='11662306']
My setup is very basic; much like the first link you listed. Its just a special vise for irons, and requires a bending bar. I bolted it to a block of 2x10 and mounted it on a mitre saw table. Here's a pic:

[attachment=2783724:CAM00015.jpg]


It's kind of a PIA to use because I can't really tell exactly how much I've bent the club until I put it back in the other vise and check it with the angle finder and level. Here's a pic showing how I check lie angle:

[attachment=2783742:CAM00012.jpg]


Here's one checking the loft angle:

[attachment=2783762:CAM00014.jpg]


The whole thing works and is very accurate with practice, and I've got less than $80 in all of it (found the vise and bending bar local from Craiglist). But if you expect to be bending irons more than once every couple of months, and you've got the money, I'd recommend one of the better machines. With practice I've gotten where I can adjust a full set in about an hour, but that's about as good as I can do since I often have to transfer each club back and forth several times between vises, first bending then checking to see if I've hit my targets, then back to the bending vise.

It's also a little tricky with the high lofted clubs because its very easy to end up making compound bends (adjusting loft and lie at the same time) when you don't really mean to.
[/quote]That is why you pre check both loft and lie before and after bending and yes even on a "real" loft and lie machine you can throw off the loft when making an lie adjustment and visa versa. It is like anything else with what ever method you use the more you do it the better you will get at it

[BIG STU]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1433285112' post='11677716']
Good points. I know that best practice would be to bend in my loft and lie machine, and measure separately. However, I'm inclined towards the view that static specs are limited value anyway - in the sense that the ultimate test of whether a club's lie is correct is a dynamic lie test, not its static measurements. Going from one model of club to another, with different shafts, head weights, and lengths, I think static measurements might get you in the ballpark but you'd still want to go through a process of hitting balls and working out whatever incremental adjustments you need for that particular set.

Or at least, that's one way in which I justify the investment I made in the loft and lie machine...
[/quote]Dead on it Birly as usual. Like I have said before I do not go off the stock spec numbers but go off what I read on the lie board

[BIG STU]

[quote name='HoldenCornfield' timestamp='1433110930' post='11662486']
[quote name='jonnygrouville' timestamp='1433109682' post='11662374']
Thanks gents.

The latter was very much what I was forming in my head if I wasn't going for a machine. My concerns were about the taking out to check, re-doing and so on, not only because it sounds a shag, but also as [b]I would rather keep the amount of bends to a minimum to reduce the risk of damage.[/b]

Interesting. Might be raiding the piggy-bank some time soon...
[/quote]

If you're bending old forged clubs there isn't too much to worry about. I was trying to de-loft a Hogan Sure-On wedge 4 degrees one time and actually bent it the wrong way -- meaning I then had to bend about 8 degrees out of it. But it turned out fine. And they're very easy to bend too much because they're so soft.

On the other hand, I tried to bend a Snake Eyes wedge, supposedly forged, and it was all I could do to get 2 degrees out of it. I was very concerned it was going to snap. Many of the new club forgings aren't really forgings at all, methinks.

I won't hesitate to bend vintage irons, but I'm very reluctant to try anything modern, especially if they're not mine. A friend ask me about flattening his new Titleists. Uh-uh, no way.
[/quote]As far as I know I am the only guy crazy enough on this beach to bend Ping irons. This is what I do I will check it for loft first and then have the customer hit the lie board. I make notes on each club. Then the club I am working on gets put into the machine and heated with the heat gun and then bent. Let it cool and recheck. If everything is ok then I re epoxy the head to the shaft. That is why I charge $10 per club to do them and make them sign a hold harmless waiver (which is legal in SC) It can be time consuming when making multiple adjustments. At the $10 price I do not think I am overcharging. I had one guy try to accuse me of raping people with my price so I told him to go elsewhere. He came back and because he was so obnoxious I told him I would not do them for him for any price. After all I do not run my small shop for a living period! I actually do not advertise because I just do stuff for a select few people mostly friends and some customers from the old store

[birly-shirly]

A couple of times I have gotten bored enough on a rainy afternoon to take a crack at trying to adjust a Ping iron. Much sweating and swearing yielded about a degree, maybe two, of movement - and this on one of the more recent models with the notch cut out of the underside of the hosel to supposedly facilitate adjustment. I'm not sure that any amount of money would persuade me to attempt a whole set.

It's a shame really. I like Ping design and manufacture quality. I have a couple of sets of irons that I would probably play more, but it's a bit of a deterrent just the knowledge that it's so impractical to tweak them in almost any way. I'd rather put in the time getting used to a set that you know can be easily adjusted to your tastes and needs.

[bullrambler]

I obtained a bending machine... I tried it old school for a while but it takes longer, and pipe wrenches etc can mar the surface of the hosels. Ask around at a few gold courses and you may find someone who has one but isn't using it anymore. That means getting it at a reasonable price.

[mikah]

[quote name='jonnygrouville' timestamp='1433081353' post='11660258']
Currently paying something like three quid a club to have lofts and lies done. I like my lies slightly flat and have enough sets to now make it economic sense to be thinking about doing this myself.

Any experiences from first forays into bending clubs, recommendations, whatever, gratefully received.

Seem like a variety of options available in the UK. More budget end...

[url="http://www.gamolagolf.co.uk/acatalog/Golfsmith_Iron_Bending_Vice.html"]http://www.gamolagol...nding_Vice.html[/url]

Still a lot more money than even my most expensive set of irons, but would be worth it after I have done four sets. Cost adds up if you need to buy a separate measuring set-up, bending bars and so on.

Then the all-singing, all-dancing...

[url="http://www.gamolagolf.co.uk/acatalog/Golfsmith-Ultimate-Loft-Lie-Bending-Machine.html"]http://www.gamolagol...ng-Machine.html[/url]

There are a few inbetween too. Interested to hear thoughts.

Might be crazy, but I remember a pro mate of mine doing all of this in a vice, clamping the head in with, if I can remember, what looked like two brass bars. Old school, far more skilled method?
[/quote]

I may be missing something, but once I found the lie angle right for me, I put the clubs up against my work bench and marked where the butt rested against the bench, with sole flat on the floor.
Now when I want to check any club, I put it up against the mark.

When a club needs adjustment, I use a bending bar in my right hand and hold the grip end in the left hand.
Normally the clubs need to be made flatter. With shaft bending, its a governor on how much bending pressure I'll use.

In my mind, the actual degrees doesnt matter. What matters is consistent distance for my hands off the ground.

Am I missing something?

[jonnygrouville]

Nope, need not be that elaborate. I currently push the faces of two clubs consecutive in the set onto the top of my bench and check that the shafts kind of converge as much as I would expect them too. Likewise, easy to check how much the toe is off the ground at address.

Got to get round to the bending itself and was just wondering if people have gone for the fancy-Dan-machine approach or something more rudimentary. Currently thinking that I need a big mug of "pull yourself together you soft sh!te" and to try the latter...

[birly-shirly]

mikah - not sure I understand, are you bending the hosel or the shaft?

[mikah]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1435263397' post='11834760']
mikah - not sure I understand, are you bending the hosel or the shaft?
[/quote]D


One or the other. Does it matter? LOL

The last hosel I tried to bend while in a vise was my Ping eye II, lob wedge. Since I snapped the hosel, havent used a vice since.

The shaft gives immediate feedback.

[birly-shirly]

Maybe not! You're making a trade-off between precision, ease and cost - but there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

Ralph Maltby's club repair manual talks about making face angle and lie adjustments to woods by bending the shaft. Steel shafted, wooden headed woods that is! He uses a different, probably even simpler, technique though. He has a wooden board with a slot cut in it. The neck/shaft of the club gets put in the slot with your hands either side and downward pressure makes the bend. No bending bar, and you have a bit more precise control over where the bend occurs. From memory, I think he reckons on heavyweight steel shafts being good for an adjustment of up to 4*, and lightweight shafts up to 2*.

If it's good enough for Maltby, it's probably good enough for me although I've never tried it in practice. I have a bending machine for irons and haven't tried to adjust woods. I'd like to experiment with adjusting face angle - but have never quite got round to it. The process would of course start with selecting an expendable wood as the experimental subject!

FWIW - I wouldn't write off the use of a vice just on your experience with your Ping wedge. Those are horrendous to adjust. I can just about get through a whole set of forged blades in the time, and with considerably less stress, than it would take to move a ping wedge a degree or two.

[mikah]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1435316983' post='11837746']
Maybe not! You're making a trade-off between precision, ease and cost - but there's nothing inherently wrong with that.

Ralph Maltby's club repair manual talks about making face angle and lie adjustments to woods by bending the shaft. Steel shafted, wooden headed woods that is! He uses a different, probably even simpler, technique though. He has a wooden board with a slot cut in it. The neck/shaft of the club gets put in the slot with your hands either side and downward pressure makes the bend. No bending bar, and you have a bit more precise control over where the bend occurs. From memory, I think he reckons on heavyweight steel shafts being good for an adjustment of up to 4*, and lightweight shafts up to 2*.

If it's good enough for Maltby, it's probably good enough for me although I've never tried it in practice. I have a bending machine for irons and haven't tried to adjust woods. I'd like to experiment with adjusting face angle - but have never quite got round to it. The process would of course start with selecting an expendable wood as the experimental subject!

FWIW - I wouldn't write off the use of a vice just on your experience with your Ping wedge. Those are horrendous to adjust. I can just about get through a whole set of forged blades in the time, and with considerably less stress, than it would take to move a ping wedge a degree or two.
[/quote]



Interesting idea to bend the shaft, for wooden heads and steel shafts only. Doesnt a bent shaft make a club illegal


All my shafts are graphite, so hosels have to bend. Irons are very soft forgings

For metal head woods, non adjustable, from hybrid to Driver I use the same bending bar and shaft in hand technique for lie angle and face angle.

[birly-shirly]

Wow. If you have graphite shafts, then I'd be pretty confident that any change in lie angle is happening in the clubhead and not the shaft. I'd never have imagined that you could apply enough force through the length of a flexible shaft to bend the hosel before the shaft itself snapped. Hats off to you sir.

As for the legality, I can only guess that the authorities allow a bit of leeway. Although Maltby's suggested method actually "hides" any bend under the whipping - and that might be why.

[BIG STU]

Pings are easy to bend if you take the time and Moderately heat them bend and let cool off and check after cooling and then re epoxy. I will agree I can bend a set of forged blades in the time it takes to bend one Ping. You got to have patience

[mikah]

[quote name='birly-shirly' timestamp='1435326151' post='11838422']
Wow. If you have graphite shafts, then I'd be pretty confident that any change in lie angle is happening in the clubhead and not the shaft. I'd never have imagined that you could apply enough force through the length of a flexible shaft to bend the hosel before the shaft itself snapped. Hats off to you sir.

As for the legality, I can only guess that the authorities allow a bit of leeway. Although Maltby's suggested method actually "hides" any bend under the whipping - and that might be why.
[/quote]



Thanks, but its not me, IMO. Its the shaft. Nunchuks are very stiff. cpm start at 305 for the driver and go up from there.

Ive done a few adjustments for friends who had cheap off the shelf "junk' with cheap graphite. Huge variance iin lie angle within those cheap sets. Its no wonder its hard to improve. Just have to sense when to stop bendng.

[jonnygrouville]

I asked another old school professional what I could do about a persimmon driver I had that was a little shut. He took it from me, put it against his knee and with a couple of deft adjustment at the whipping, it is as right as rain.

Behind the ball anyway. Lie it on a bench and he's just bent the shaft eh?

[BIG STU]

[quote name='jonnygrouville' timestamp='1435354328' post='11841206']
I asked another old school professional what I could do about a persimmon driver I had that was a little shut. He took it from me, put it against his knee and with a couple of deft adjustment at the whipping, it is as right as rain.

Behind the ball anyway. Lie it on a bench and he's just bent the shaft eh?
[/quote]Yep that is the way they used to do it I have seen those old guys do that many times