Testing ground with a tee

[ckostrewa]

I was following Phil Mickelson's group on Friday at the BMW Championship. On one hole he was behind the green in the rough and took out a tee and shoved it into the ground about two inches behind his ball to test how soft the ground was. The way he did it to sort of conceal what he was doing made me wonder if that was even legal (there were only a few spectators around and it was late in the day on the furthest hole away from clubhouse). Any rules guys know if you are allowed to do that? Would you be able to do the same thing if you are just off the green to judge how receptive it is so you can decide whether to fly your ball all the way and spin it or play more bounce and roll?

[Peter Kelly]

It would depend upon whether he was actually testing the ground, or merely marking his ball in case it moved for another reason, or he needed to drop.

Sometimes there are things the pros do which we don't recognise, yet we should follow the same procedure. That we don't is through lack of knowledge and experience.
Of course, sometimes they might use such procedures to get an insight into conditions.

Providing he was following the rules regarding marking his ball, there is nothing to preclude him learning about the ground.

[ckostrewa]

[quote name='Peter Kelly' timestamp='1443024374' post='12356216']
It would depend upon whether he was actually testing the ground, or merely marking his ball in case it moved for another reason, or he needed to drop.

Sometimes there are things the pros do which we don't recognise, yet we should follow the same procedure. That we don't is through lack of knowledge and experience.
Of course, sometimes they might use such procedures to get an insight into conditions.

Providing he was following the rules regarding marking his ball, there is nothing to preclude him learning about the ground.
[/quote] He was in the rough behind the green and they were playing Lift-clean-place in the fairways. No reason for him to mark his ball or move it in this circumstance. He pushed the tee in the ground a few inches behind his ball and pulled it out in one motion.

[Peter Kelly]

Talking of stretching the rules, I've seen more than one pro wandering around in the deep rough while waiting for a ruling on getting a free drop.
When the referee comes along and agrees, the drop area is...miraculously flat! Amazing!!

I also remember wondering about how correct was Andrew Oldcorn who, in 2001 PGA Championship at Wentworth, had a difficult shot to the 17th lying in reasonable rough.
If memory serves, he tried various clubs to 'check the lie' before using a fairway wood, which was lifted and 'placed' several times before striking the shot to the green.
He went on to win.

[Peter Kelly]

[quote name='ckostrewa' timestamp='1443024864' post='12356248']
] He was in the rough behind the green and they were playing Lift-clean-place in the fairways. No reason for him to mark his ball or move it in this circumstance. He pushed the tee in the ground a few inches behind his ball and pulled it out in one motion.
[/quote]

That does sound dodgy! It couldn't even have been construed as checking for casual water, because that has a different definition which a tee wouldn't indicate. Hmmm...

[Sawgrass]

[b] 13-2/27[/b]


[b] Probing Near Ball for Tree Roots[/b]


[color=#474B55][color=#D5213A][b]Q.[/b][/color]A player's ball comes to rest through the green in such a position that he believes tree rulesContents or rocks may be just below the surface of the ground. May he, without penalty, probe the area around his ball with a tee or the like to see if his club would strike a rulesContent or a rock in the course of making a stroke?[/color]

[color=#474B55][color=#D5213A][b]A.[/b][/color]Yes, provided the lie of the ball, area of intended stance or swing or the line of play is not improved (Rule[url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-13,13-2"]13-2[/url]) and the ball is not moved (Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-18,18-2"]18-2[/url]). The same principle would apply if the player wishes to probe to determine the presence of an immovable obstruction.[/color]

[color="#474b55"]Very peculiarly, there's a typo in the above (which exists on the USGA website)![/color]

[spud3]

So all Phil had to do was be prepared to "state" that he's just checking for rocks or tree roots?

[Peter Kelly]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1443025166' post='12356268']
[b] 13-2/27[/b]


[b] Probing Near Ball for Tree Roots[/b]


[color=#474B55][color=#D5213A][b]Q.[/b][/color]A player's ball comes to rest through the green in such a position that he believes tree rulesContents or rocks may be just below the surface of the ground. May he, without penalty, probe the area around his ball with a tee or the like to see if his club would strike a rulesContent or a rock in the course of making a stroke?[/color]

[color=#474B55][color=#D5213A][b]A.[/b][/color]Yes, provided the lie of the ball, area of intended stance or swing or the line of play is not improved (Rule[url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-13,13-2"]13-2[/url]) and the ball is not moved (Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-18,18-2"]18-2[/url]). The same principle would apply if the player wishes to probe to determine the presence of an immovable obstruction.[/color]

[color=#474b55]Very peculiarly, there's a typo in the above (which exists on the USGA website)![/color]
[/quote]

Never thought of that, but I suppose it would depend upon how reasonable it is to suspect rocks or other items are present. To be honest, my clubs will testify to how often I've been surprised on that score...

[chippa13]

The following was taken from here: http://www.barryrhodes.com/2012/01/zach-johnson-testing-surface-rory.html

[i]Most players know that they may not test the condition of a hazard (Rule 13-4a) or the surface of a putting green (Rule 16-1d), but there is nothing in the Rules to stop a player testing the surface through the green, providing that in doing so they do not improve the lie of their ball, their area of intended stance, or line of play (Rule 13-2).[/i]

[Mr. Bean]

[quote name='Peter Kelly' timestamp='1443025908' post='12356334']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1443025166' post='12356268']
[b] 13-2/27[/b]


[b] Probing Near Ball for Tree Roots[/b]


[color=#474B55][color=#D5213A][b]Q.[/b][/color]A player's ball comes to rest through the green in such a position that he believes tree rulesContents or rocks may be just below the surface of the ground. May he, without penalty, probe the area around his ball with a tee or the like to see if his club would strike a rulesContent or a rock in the course of making a stroke?[/color]

[color=#474B55][color=#D5213A][b]A.[/b][/color]Yes, provided the lie of the ball, area of intended stance or swing or the line of play is not improved (Rule[url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-13,13-2"]13-2[/url]) and the ball is not moved (Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-decisions.html#!rule-18,18-2"]18-2[/url]). The same principle would apply if the player wishes to probe to determine the presence of an immovable obstruction.[/color]

[color=#474b55]Very peculiarly, there's a typo in the above (which exists on the USGA website)![/color]
[/quote]

Never thought of that, but I suppose it would depend upon how reasonable it is to suspect rocks or other items are present. To be honest, my clubs will testify to how often I've been surprised on that score...
[/quote]

There is no criteria about reasonability but it is all about intent.

As long as the player is not in breach of R13-2 he may probe the ground through the green as much as he wants.

[BobHatcher]

This is a common occurrence in tournament golf and is allowed under the rules. Given the number of wrist injuries people do it quite often.

 

13-2/27

 

Probing Near Ball for Tree Roots

 

 

Q.A player's ball comes to rest through the green in such a position that he believes tree roots or rocks may be just below the surface of the ground. May he, without penalty, probe the area around his ball with a tee or the like to see if his club would strike a rulesContent or a rock in the course of making a stroke?

 

 

A.Yes, provided the lie of the ball, area of intended stance or swing or the line of play is not improved (Rule 13-2) and the ball is not moved (Rule 18-2). The same principle would apply if the player wishes to probe to determine the presence of an immovable obstruction.

[Newby]

Did you not bother reading post #9 before you posted.

 

There is nothing in the Rules to stop a player testing the surface through the green, providing that in doing so they do not improve the lie of their ball, their area of intended stance, or line of play (Rule 13-2)