These long game and short game debates are ridiculous, IMO

[bph7]

.......The difference between golfers of different levels is how well you hit the ball. The difference between golfers at the same level is how good your short game is.

 

The difference between an 18 and a 10 is ball striking, pure and simple. However, bring me two 10's and I'll bet on the one that gets it done around the greens better..........

 

Don't two 10 handicappers shoot roughly the same score? Why would one be better because they had a better short game? If they had a better short game they would necessarily be worse at ball striking otherwise they wouldn't be a 10!

 

Two identical handicaps aren't necessarily created equal. Handicap is based on best 10 out of 20. Someone who is a 10 but has his ten "dropped" scores be in the mid 80s is obviously a better golfer than someone who is a 10 but has some "dropped" scores in the 90s and higher. Id say a bad ball striker with a good short game who is a 10 is more likely to have some terrible rounds than vice versa.

 

So you are disagreeing with the OPs assertion that the better short game would rule between two 10s.

 

I don't think that you can assume that one type of player will have higher dropped scores than another type of player. I think everything would depend on the consistency of the individuals game be it in ball striking or short game.

 

I think on a given day when both are playing more or less to their handicap I'd take the one with a better short game on that day, so I don't disagree to that extent.

 

I also think the point was more: line up an equal number of 18 caps, 14 caps, 10 caps and 6 caps on the range and you are much more likely to be able to identify them just by watching some of them hit some 6 irons and drivers than you'd ever be able to just watching them chip and putt. I'm not sure I agree with precisely the way Monte put it, but I think his general point was "you aren't going to get to X cap without hitting it at a certain level, within those base levels better short games would win". Maybe I misinterpreted though.

 

As for the assumptions, I'm very comfortable saying that someone who is a much better ball striker within a given level would likely have better scores on the dropped scores than a worse ball striker with a better short game. There are just many more shots to be gained (or lost) off the tee and into the green once you have basic chipping and putting skills. That is indisputable, at least in terms of those who've tried to rigorously analyze it. No one has ever studied any data and come to a different conclusion. I still don't think this means that on one given day, a hot putter who hits it a little worse might not win out and I don't think it's contradictory.

[Webby58]

No one can shoot goods scores if their short game stinks. I shot 36 yesterday in league. I had hit one fairway and 2 GIR but only had 12 putts (6 one putts). My score could have been 5 strokes higher if I hadn't made some putts.

 

And I've shot 34 while having 18 putts. Lee Westwood got to number 1 in the world with the chip yips. He is -2.8 SG putting a round and -0.8 SG around the green, so -3.6 shots a round short game yet has a stroke average of 70.7. Worst putter on tour but is 39th in the world. You can shoot good scores with a poor short game.

 

Ya, as long as you don't have to use it :)

[Webby58]

No one can shoot goods scores if their short game stinks. I shot 36 yesterday in league. I had hit one fairway and 2 GIR but only had 12 putts (6 one putts). My score could have been 5 strokes higher if I hadn't made some putts.

 

And I've shot 34 while having 18 putts. Lee Westwood got to number 1 in the world with the chip yips. He is -2.8 SG putting a round and -0.8 SG around the green, so -3.6 shots a round short game yet has a stroke average of 70.7. Worst putter on tour but is 39th in the world. You can shoot good scores with a poor short game.

 

Played a kid in match play and he drove the ball 290 yards in the fairway and hit a bunch of GIR. I drove the ball 250 yards crooked and struggled to hit GIR! Guess who couldn't putt and lost that day? You can hit greens all day long, doesn't mean anything unless you can put the little ball in the hole!

 

That's what I keep saying but to others here the long games is how you get the ball in the hole. Haven't been able to figure that one out so myself, I will continue to use my putter to get the ball in the hole.

[iteachgolf]

No one can shoot goods scores if their short game stinks. I shot 36 yesterday in league. I had hit one fairway and 2 GIR but only had 12 putts (6 one putts). My score could have been 5 strokes higher if I hadn't made some putts.

 

And I've shot 34 while having 18 putts. Lee Westwood got to number 1 in the world with the chip yips. He is -2.8 SG putting a round and -0.8 SG around the green, so -3.6 shots a round short game yet has a stroke average of 70.7. Worst putter on tour but is 39th in the world. You can shoot good scores with a poor short game.

 

Ya, as long as you don't have to use it :)

 

You can't not use it. Lee Westwood still had to hit chips and wedge shots and still have to putt every hole. Many good players are chipping for eagle almost every par 5 so even if they have a poor short game are still going to make birdies even when not putting well or even chipping that well. Even if you hit 18 greens you're still using your short game every round.

[iteachgolf]

No one can shoot goods scores if their short game stinks. I shot 36 yesterday in league. I had hit one fairway and 2 GIR but only had 12 putts (6 one putts). My score could have been 5 strokes higher if I hadn't made some putts.

 

And I've shot 34 while having 18 putts. Lee Westwood got to number 1 in the world with the chip yips. He is -2.8 SG putting a round and -0.8 SG around the green, so -3.6 shots a round short game yet has a stroke average of 70.7. Worst putter on tour but is 39th in the world. You can shoot good scores with a poor short game.

 

Played a kid in match play and he drove the ball 290 yards in the fairway and hit a bunch of GIR. I drove the ball 250 yards crooked and struggled to hit GIR! Guess who couldn't putt and lost that day? You can hit greens all day long, doesn't mean anything unless you can put the little ball in the hole!

 

That's what I keep saying but to others here the long games is how you get the ball in the hole. Haven't been able to figure that one out so myself, I will continue to use my putter to get the ball in the hole.

 

Again if they play 10 times the kid who hit greens all day will win at least 8 times. When he loses he will barely lose. But in the 8 wins he will demolish the guy who is struggling to hit greens and has to get up and down almost every hole. And it's not even close. The good ball striker is the better player and will win an overwhelming majority of the time. It's not even close

[Webby58]

No one can shoot goods scores if their short game stinks. I shot 36 yesterday in league. I had hit one fairway and 2 GIR but only had 12 putts (6 one putts). My score could have been 5 strokes higher if I hadn't made some putts.

 

And I've shot 34 while having 18 putts. Lee Westwood got to number 1 in the world with the chip yips. He is -2.8 SG putting a round and -0.8 SG around the green, so -3.6 shots a round short game yet has a stroke average of 70.7. Worst putter on tour but is 39th in the world. You can shoot good scores with a poor short game.

 

Played a kid in match play and he drove the ball 290 yards in the fairway and hit a bunch of GIR. I drove the ball 250 yards crooked and struggled to hit GIR! Guess who couldn't putt and lost that day? You can hit greens all day long, doesn't mean anything unless you can put the little ball in the hole!

 

Good luck shooting 66 missing greens

 

Theoretically you could miss every green on a par 72 and still shoot 54. So I really don't get your point

[Webby58]

No one can shoot goods scores if their short game stinks. I shot 36 yesterday in league. I had hit one fairway and 2 GIR but only had 12 putts (6 one putts). My score could have been 5 strokes higher if I hadn't made some putts.

 

And I've shot 34 while having 18 putts. Lee Westwood got to number 1 in the world with the chip yips. He is -2.8 SG putting a round and -0.8 SG around the green, so -3.6 shots a round short game yet has a stroke average of 70.7. Worst putter on tour but is 39th in the world. You can shoot good scores with a poor short game.

 

Played a kid in match play and he drove the ball 290 yards in the fairway and hit a bunch of GIR. I drove the ball 250 yards crooked and struggled to hit GIR! Guess who couldn't putt and lost that day? You can hit greens all day long, doesn't mean anything unless you can put the little ball in the hole!

 

In a section match a few weeks ago I had a rough short game day. I didn't make a putt over 5 feet, hit it 320+ and only missed 2 greens, broke par and beat a guy who had about 20 putts through 14 holes 5&4.

 

You're using a small sample size of your own experience to deny the facts.

 

The biggest difference between golfers of different levels is long game. On a given day, players of fairly equal level, short game has a more likely chance of being the difference maker.

 

At the end of the day Monte it's who gets the ball in the hole in fewer stroke. How you get it done I don't think is important. Golf is a game of results, not a game of perfect.

[Webby58]

No one can shoot goods scores if their short game stinks. I shot 36 yesterday in league. I had hit one fairway and 2 GIR but only had 12 putts (6 one putts). My score could have been 5 strokes higher if I hadn't made some putts.

 

And I've shot 34 while having 18 putts. Lee Westwood got to number 1 in the world with the chip yips. He is -2.8 SG putting a round and -0.8 SG around the green, so -3.6 shots a round short game yet has a stroke average of 70.7. Worst putter on tour but is 39th in the world. You can shoot good scores with a poor short game.

 

Played a kid in match play and he drove the ball 290 yards in the fairway and hit a bunch of GIR. I drove the ball 250 yards crooked and struggled to hit GIR! Guess who couldn't putt and lost that day? You can hit greens all day long, doesn't mean anything unless you can put the little ball in the hole!

 

That's what I keep saying but to others here the long games is how you get the ball in the hole. Haven't been able to figure that one out so myself, I will continue to use my putter to get the ball in the hole.

 

Again if they play 10 times the kid who hit greens all day will win at least 8 times. When he loses he will barely lose. But in the 8 wins he will demolish the guy who is struggling to hit greens and has to get up and down almost every hole. And it's not even close. The good ball striker is the better player and will win an overwhelming majority of the time. It's not even close

 

The good ball striker with a crappy short game (including "Can't Putt") is the better player and will win a majority of the time. If I was a betting man I'd be putting my money on the player with average ball strikeing and a white hot putter and short game. Remember Dan, the kid above can't putt. If you can't putt you CAN NOT SCORE. if you can't score you can't win

[Kuuuch]

No one can shoot goods scores if their short game stinks. I shot 36 yesterday in league. I had hit one fairway and 2 GIR but only had 12 putts (6 one putts). My score could have been 5 strokes higher if I hadn't made some putts.

 

And I've shot 34 while having 18 putts. Lee Westwood got to number 1 in the world with the chip yips. He is -2.8 SG putting a round and -0.8 SG around the green, so -3.6 shots a round short game yet has a stroke average of 70.7. Worst putter on tour but is 39th in the world. You can shoot good scores with a poor short game.

 

Played a kid in match play and he drove the ball 290 yards in the fairway and hit a bunch of GIR. I drove the ball 250 yards crooked and struggled to hit GIR! Guess who couldn't putt and lost that day? You can hit greens all day long, doesn't mean anything unless you can put the little ball in the hole!

 

Good luck shooting 66 missing greens

 

Theoretically you could miss every green on a par 72 and still shoot 54. So I really don't get your point

 

His point is the MAJORITY of the time the person hitting more GIR is going to win because he is the better ball striker which equates to being a better golfer. The person having to get up and down a lot is going to have a tough time doing that consistently.

 

I don't get what is so hard to understand about this. Literally saying a person could miss every green and still shoot 54 proves nothing, that's not going to happen nor has it ever.

[jbw749]

I believe there is a big disconnect between amateurs for various reasons:

 

1. They watch TV and they see Tour players making a ton of putts and they assume that's how it always is. Television producers always want to show made putts more than they want to show missed putts. What they don't see is the missed putts and don't see what the actual %'s are of making putts from various distances. For instance, from 12-feet a Tour player is 2.3 times more likely to 2-putt than 1-putt.

 

2. Because putting is shown so much on TV during events, it seeps into the golfer's mind watching at home that putting must be more important.

 

3. Shooting a single round low score for a Tour player vs. a 10-handicap tends to be a little different in terms of what goes on with the performance.

 

For instance, while a Tour player has to putt well to shoot...say 63...shooting that score has much more to do with ballstriking than putting.

 

A good example was Jim Furyk when he shot 59 at Conway Farms back in 2013.

 

Furyk did putt very well.

 

However, he hit every GIR and only missed 1 fairway. Furthermore, he had 14 birdie opportunities inside 20-feet. And that does not include the eagle he made on approach shot from 125 yards.

 

Every instance I can think of a Tour player shooting 63 or better since 2010 has derived from incredible ballstriking. I keep track of how many birdie opportunities they have inside 20-feet on those rounds and usually you're looking at least 11 of those opportunities per round.

 

For the average amateur, that low round is likely to be a bit more about putting than ballstriking. I surmise, based on the research I've done, that a 10-handicap that shoots, say a 74, will probably be more likely to hit the ball a bit better than they normally do, but they may start dropping a bunch of putts.

 

However, in the end they are not going to continue to drop that many putts no matter how much they work at it. And their handicap will drop the most when their ballstriking improves significantly. So they get fooled into thinking that their low round where they made putts from everywhere means that if they want to substantially drop their handicap...they need to work just on their putting. Instead of understanding that round was an outlier that is not likely to be replicated again by putting lights out and hitting the ball near their normal level of play.

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

What about when the producers throw stats up like dustin johnson being 60 of 66 from inside 10 ft? To me that's insanely good.

[spoonek9]

This is a dumb argument! People say long game is more important and then in the same breath say you have to have a decent short game! Short game gets the ball in the hole. You can play around a bad long game, like take extra club, play for the big miss, hit iron off the tee. Most people are too stubborn to admit they can't hit their stock shot that day but keep firing away! There is no playing around a bad short game!

[iteachgolf]

 

And I've shot 34 while having 18 putts. Lee Westwood got to number 1 in the world with the chip yips. He is -2.8 SG putting a round and -0.8 SG around the green, so -3.6 shots a round short game yet has a stroke average of 70.7. Worst putter on tour but is 39th in the world. You can shoot good scores with a poor short game.

 

Played a kid in match play and he drove the ball 290 yards in the fairway and hit a bunch of GIR. I drove the ball 250 yards crooked and struggled to hit GIR! Guess who couldn't putt and lost that day? You can hit greens all day long, doesn't mean anything unless you can put the little ball in the hole!

 

That's what I keep saying but to others here the long games is how you get the ball in the hole. Haven't been able to figure that one out so myself, I will continue to use my putter to get the ball in the hole.

 

Again if they play 10 times the kid who hit greens all day will win at least 8 times. When he loses he will barely lose. But in the 8 wins he will demolish the guy who is struggling to hit greens and has to get up and down almost every hole. And it's not even close. The good ball striker is the better player and will win an overwhelming majority of the time. It's not even close

 

The good ball striker with a crappy short game (including "Can't Putt") is the better player and will win a majority of the time. If I was a betting man I'd be putting my money on the player with average ball strikeing and a white hot putter and short game. Remember Dan, the kid above can't putt. If you can't putt you CAN NOT SCORE. if you can't score you can't win

 

NOBODY can sustain a hot putter. And the kid above couldn't putt that round. Again a HORRIBLE putter averages 36-37 putts. The good ball striker still shoots 75 putting horribly. The guy missing most of the greens can shoot under 75 but absolutely will not do it consistently and cannot sustain it. I seriously think you haven't been around anyone who hits it good. They absolutely can score better than a guy who hits 5 greens but is a ridiculous putter, and they will do it often. Even a horrible putter is gonna shoot low scores hitting 14 greens. Because even a horrible putter makes putts. They will make birdies with 14 opportunities and they will have a lot of really short par putts.

[iteachgolf]

I believe there is a big disconnect between amateurs for various reasons:

 

1. They watch TV and they see Tour players making a ton of putts and they assume that's how it always is. Television producers always want to show made putts more than they want to show missed putts. What they don't see is the missed putts and don't see what the actual %'s are of making putts from various distances. For instance, from 12-feet a Tour player is 2.3 times more likely to 2-putt than 1-putt.

 

2. Because putting is shown so much on TV during events, it seeps into the golfer's mind watching at home that putting must be more important.

 

3. Shooting a single round low score for a Tour player vs. a 10-handicap tends to be a little different in terms of what goes on with the performance.

 

For instance, while a Tour player has to putt well to shoot...say 63...shooting that score has much more to do with ballstriking than putting.

 

A good example was Jim Furyk when he shot 59 at Conway Farms back in 2013.

 

Furyk did putt very well.

 

However, he hit every GIR and only missed 1 fairway. Furthermore, he had 14 birdie opportunities inside 20-feet. And that does not include the eagle he made on approach shot from 125 yards.

 

Every instance I can think of a Tour player shooting 63 or better since 2010 has derived from incredible ballstriking. I keep track of how many birdie opportunities they have inside 20-feet on those rounds and usually you're looking at least 11 of those opportunities per round.

 

For the average amateur, that low round is likely to be a bit more about putting than ballstriking. I surmise, based on the research I've done, that a 10-handicap that shoots, say a 74, will probably be more likely to hit the ball a bit better than they normally do, but they may start dropping a bunch of putts.

 

However, in the end they are not going to continue to drop that many putts no matter how much they work at it. And their handicap will drop the most when their ballstriking improves significantly. So they get fooled into thinking that their low round where they made putts from everywhere means that if they want to substantially drop their handicap...they need to work just on their putting. Instead of understanding that round was an outlier that is not likely to be replicated again by putting lights out and hitting the ball near their normal level of play.

 

 

 

 

 

 

RH

 

What about when the producers throw stats up like dustin johnson being 60 of 66 from inside 10 ft? To me that's insanely good.

 

Because 50+ are from inside 4'

[iteachgolf]

This is a dumb argument! People say long game is more important and then in the same breath say you have to have a decent short game! Short game gets the ball in the hole. You can play around a bad long game, like take extra club, play for the big miss, hit iron off the tee. Most people are too stubborn to admit they can't hit their stock shot that day but keep firing away! There is no playing around a bad short game!

 

Lee Westwood and Boo Weekley disagree. Westwood was 1 in the world with chip tips. Worst putter on tour and bad chipper and 39th in the world now

[Webby58]

 

 

Theoretically you could miss every green on a par 72 and still shoot 54. So I really don't get your point

 

His point is the MAJORITY of the time the person hitting more GIR is going to win because he is the better ball striker which equates to being a better golfer. The person having to get up and down a lot is going to have a tough time doing that consistently.

 

I don't get what is so hard to understand about this. Literally saying a person could miss every green and still shoot 54 proves nothing, that's not going to happen nor has it ever.

 

Nothing hard to understand here. There is more to golf then "The long Game" and having a long game does not make a great player.

 

Hey you and others that truly believe that the long game is the be all , the way to golf salvation, go for it. Then you can truly be that guy at the driving range that people look at in awe when you're strike balls. Good luck :)

[spoonek9]

This is a dumb argument! People say long game is more important and then in the same breath say you have to have a decent short game! Short game gets the ball in the hole. You can play around a bad long game, like take extra club, play for the big miss, hit iron off the tee. Most people are too stubborn to admit they can't hit their stock shot that day but keep firing away! There is no playing around a bad short game!

 

Lee Westwood and Boo Weekley disagree. Westwood was 1 in the world with chip tips. Worst putter on tour and bad chipper and 39th in the world now

 

 

I'm sure they are very happy with those stats too! Who in there right mind says "I'm the worst putter on tour but I'm OK with that"! I'm sure they would rather sink some more putts and win some more tournaments! Your argument makes no sense!!

[iteachgolf]

 

 

Theoretically you could miss every green on a par 72 and still shoot 54. So I really don't get your point

 

His point is the MAJORITY of the time the person hitting more GIR is going to win because he is the better ball striker which equates to being a better golfer. The person having to get up and down a lot is going to have a tough time doing that consistently.

 

I don't get what is so hard to understand about this. Literally saying a person could miss every green and still shoot 54 proves nothing, that's not going to happen nor has it ever.

 

Nothing hard to understand here. There is more to golf then "The long Game" and having a long game does not make a great player.

 

Hey you and others that truly believe that the long game is the be all , the way to golf salvation, go for it. Then you can truly be that guy at the driving range that people look at in awe when you're strike balls. Good luck :)

 

No offense but how do you know? You're not a good ballstriker and not a great golfer, you've said so. I bet you putt as good as I do and when I'm hitting it well I bet you can shoot par or better putting for me.

 

You're ignoring evidence from guys who do this for a living

[Webby58]

 

 

The good ball striker with a crappy short game (including "Can't Putt") is the better player and will win a majority of the time. If I was a betting man I'd be putting my money on the player with average ball strikeing and a white hot putter and short game. Remember Dan, the kid above can't putt. If you can't putt you CAN NOT SCORE. if you can't score you can't win

 

NOBODY can sustain a hot putter. And the kid above couldn't putt that round. Again a HORRIBLE putter averages 36-37 putts. The good ball striker still shoots 75 putting horribly. The guy missing most of the greens can shoot under 75 but absolutely will not do it consistently and cannot sustain it. I seriously think you haven't been around anyone who hits it good. They absolutely can score better than a guy who hits 5 greens but is a ridiculous putter, and they will do it often. Even a horrible putter is gonna shoot low scores hitting 14 greens. Because even a horrible putter makes putts. They will make birdies with 14 opportunities and they will have a lot of really short par putts.

 

So you don't have to be a good putter to make puts. Dan that really make a of sense "NOT"

 

So you are saying a great putter can not sustain great putting put a great ball strike can sustain great ball striking all day. Then people here say ball striking is the hardest part of golf, thats why we spend so much time practicing it an ignore the short game.

 

You know what. You gays are running around in circles chasing you your long game tails. good luck with that :)

 

Seriously Dan, where do you do you these ridiculous stats. I sometimes wonder

 

Tell you what. You keep preaching that the long game is the way to salvation I'll be laughing while I'm sinking my 20 footers :)

[iteachgolf]

This is a dumb argument! People say long game is more important and then in the same breath say you have to have a decent short game! Short game gets the ball in the hole. You can play around a bad long game, like take extra club, play for the big miss, hit iron off the tee. Most people are too stubborn to admit they can't hit their stock shot that day but keep firing away! There is no playing around a bad short game!

 

Lee Westwood and Boo Weekley disagree. Westwood was 1 in the world with chip tips. Worst putter on tour and bad chipper and 39th in the world now

 

 

I'm sure they are very happy with those stats too! Who in there right mind says "I'm the worst putter on tour but I'm OK with that"! I'm sure they would rather sink some more putts and win some more tournaments! Your argument makes no sense!!

 

Huh? I think your reading comprehension is terrible and you missed the entire point. Of course they want to putt better. The point is you don't have to be a great putter to be one of the best in the world.

 

My point was that your statement that you can't play around a poor short game is completely false and has been proven many times over. My argument not only makes sense but is proven

[Webby58]

Theoretically you could miss every green on a par 72 and still shoot 54. So I really don't get your point

 

His point is the MAJORITY of the time the person hitting more GIR is going to win because he is the better ball striker which equates to being a better golfer. The person having to get up and down a lot is going to have a tough time doing that consistently.

 

I don't get what is so hard to understand about this. Literally saying a person could miss every green and still shoot 54 proves nothing, that's not going to happen nor has it ever.

 

Nothing hard to understand here. There is more to golf then "The long Game" and having a long game does not make a great player.

 

Hey you and others that truly believe that the long game is the be all , the way to golf salvation, go for it. Then you can truly be that guy at the driving range that people look at in awe when you're strike balls. Good luck :)

 

No offense but how do you know? You're not a good ballstriker and not a great golfer, you've said so. I bet you putt as good as I do and when I'm hitting it well I bet you can shoot par or better putting for me.

 

You're ignoring evidence from guys who do this for a living

 

No Dan I'm not a great golfer. I don't shoot 66 every day on 7600 yard courses. But when I shoot a 76 on the 6400 courses I play it's usually because i'm sinking some birdie putts and making some some nice up and downs. i.e. my short game :)

[bph7]

 

 

The good ball striker with a crappy short game (including "Can't Putt") is the better player and will win a majority of the time. If I was a betting man I'd be putting my money on the player with average ball strikeing and a white hot putter and short game. Remember Dan, the kid above can't putt. If you can't putt you CAN NOT SCORE. if you can't score you can't win

 

NOBODY can sustain a hot putter. And the kid above couldn't putt that round. Again a HORRIBLE putter averages 36-37 putts. The good ball striker still shoots 75 putting horribly. The guy missing most of the greens can shoot under 75 but absolutely will not do it consistently and cannot sustain it. I seriously think you haven't been around anyone who hits it good. They absolutely can score better than a guy who hits 5 greens but is a ridiculous putter, and they will do it often. Even a horrible putter is gonna shoot low scores hitting 14 greens. Because even a horrible putter makes putts. They will make birdies with 14 opportunities and they will have a lot of really short par putts.

 

So you don't have to be a good putter to make puts. Dan that really make a of sense "NOT"

 

So you are saying a great putter can not sustain great putting put a great ball strike can sustain great ball striking all day. Then people here say ball striking is the hardest part of golf, thats why we spend so much time practicing it an ignore the short game.

 

You know what. You gays are running around in circles chasing you your long game tails. good luck with that :)

 

Seriously Dan, where do you do you these ridiculous stats. I sometimes wonder

 

Tell you what. You keep preaching that the long game is the way to salvation I'll be laughing while I'm sinking my 20 footers :)

 

If you are making more than 10% of your 20 plus footers you'd be the best in the world by a wide margin. If you are talking only about exactly 20 footers, you'd need to make like 1 in 6 or so to be world class.

[iteachgolf]

 

 

The good ball striker with a crappy short game (including "Can't Putt") is the better player and will win a majority of the time. If I was a betting man I'd be putting my money on the player with average ball strikeing and a white hot putter and short game. Remember Dan, the kid above can't putt. If you can't putt you CAN NOT SCORE. if you can't score you can't win

 

NOBODY can sustain a hot putter. And the kid above couldn't putt that round. Again a HORRIBLE putter averages 36-37 putts. The good ball striker still shoots 75 putting horribly. The guy missing most of the greens can shoot under 75 but absolutely will not do it consistently and cannot sustain it. I seriously think you haven't been around anyone who hits it good. They absolutely can score better than a guy who hits 5 greens but is a ridiculous putter, and they will do it often. Even a horrible putter is gonna shoot low scores hitting 14 greens. Because even a horrible putter makes putts. They will make birdies with 14 opportunities and they will have a lot of really short par putts.

 

So you don't have to be a good putter to make puts. Dan that really make a of sense "NOT"

 

So you are saying a great putter can not sustain great putting put a great ball strike can sustain great ball striking all day. Then people here say ball striking is the hardest part of golf, thats why we spend so much time practicing it an ignore the short game.

 

You know what. You gays are running around in circles chasing you your long game tails. good luck with that :)

 

Seriously Dan, where do you do you these ridiculous stats. I sometimes wonder

 

Tell you what. You keep preaching that the long game is the way to salvation I'll be laughing while I'm sinking my 20 footers :)

 

The best in the word make 20% from 20'. And the worst still make 5%. So yes even bad putter make putts. Just not as often. But by hitting 14 greens they have a ton of opportunities and even if they make less than 10% they'll still make one. Good ball striking is sustainable. Making 20' putts isn't sustainable by anyone. Now having 28 putts a round is sustainable by many but nobody makes anywhere near half of their 20' footers and the best in the world handly make 25%. I'm not talking in circles. You just don't have a clue and are misrepresenting what I'm saying. You aren't a good ball striker and likely have never played with one.

 

Again I bet you putt just as good as I do. And you putt good enough to shoot under par yet you shoot mid 80s.

[iteachgolf]

Theoretically you could miss every green on a par 72 and still shoot 54. So I really don't get your point

 

His point is the MAJORITY of the time the person hitting more GIR is going to win because he is the better ball striker which equates to being a better golfer. The person having to get up and down a lot is going to have a tough time doing that consistently.

 

I don't get what is so hard to understand about this. Literally saying a person could miss every green and still shoot 54 proves nothing, that's not going to happen nor has it ever.

 

Nothing hard to understand here. There is more to golf then "The long Game" and having a long game does not make a great player.

 

Hey you and others that truly believe that the long game is the be all , the way to golf salvation, go for it. Then you can truly be that guy at the driving range that people look at in awe when you're strike balls. Good luck :)

 

No offense but how do you know? You're not a good ballstriker and not a great golfer, you've said so. I bet you putt as good as I do and when I'm hitting it well I bet you can shoot par or better putting for me.

 

You're ignoring evidence from guys who do this for a living

 

No Dan I'm not a great golfer. I don't shoot 66 every day on 7600 yard courses. But when I shoot a 76 on the 6400 courses I play it's usually because i'm sinking some birdie putts and making some some nice up and downs. i.e. my short game :)

 

Considering you only hit 5 greens a round and you are a 10 handicap there is a reason you don't shoot 76 very often. To shoot 76 all the time you need to hit it better period. The number of long putts you have to make to shoot 76 isn't sustainable no matter how much you practice. Now hitting 9 greens a round would make 76 a foregone conclusion

[Webby58]

The good ball striker with a crappy short game (including "Can't Putt") is the better player and will win a majority of the time. If I was a betting man I'd be putting my money on the player with average ball strikeing and a white hot putter and short game. Remember Dan, the kid above can't putt. If you can't putt you CAN NOT SCORE. if you can't score you can't win

 

NOBODY can sustain a hot putter. And the kid above couldn't putt that round. Again a HORRIBLE putter averages 36-37 putts. The good ball striker still shoots 75 putting horribly. The guy missing most of the greens can shoot under 75 but absolutely will not do it consistently and cannot sustain it. I seriously think you haven't been around anyone who hits it good. They absolutely can score better than a guy who hits 5 greens but is a ridiculous putter, and they will do it often. Even a horrible putter is gonna shoot low scores hitting 14 greens. Because even a horrible putter makes putts. They will make birdies with 14 opportunities and they will have a lot of really short par putts.

 

So you don't have to be a good putter to make puts. Dan that really make a of sense "NOT"

 

So you are saying a great putter can not sustain great putting put a great ball strike can sustain great ball striking all day. Then people here say ball striking is the hardest part of golf, thats why we spend so much time practicing it an ignore the short game.

 

You know what. You gays are running around in circles chasing you your long game tails. good luck with that :)

 

Seriously Dan, where do you do you these ridiculous stats. I sometimes wonder

 

Tell you what. You keep preaching that the long game is the way to salvation I'll be laughing while I'm sinking my 20 footers :)

 

The best in the word make 20% from 20'. And the worst still make 5%. So yes even bad putter make putts. Just not as often. But by hitting 14 greens they have a ton of opportunities and even if they make less than 10% they'll still make one. Good ball striking is sustainable. Making 20' putts isn't sustainable by anyone. Now having 28 putts a round is sustainable by many but nobody makes anywhere near half of their 20' footers and the best in the world handly make 25%. I'm not talking in circles. You just don't have a clue and are misrepresenting what I'm saying. You aren't a good ball striker and likely have never played with one.

 

Again I bet you putt just as good as I do. And you putt good enough to shoot under par yet you shoot mid 80s.

 

The problem here Dan is that you are stating stats here of (I quote) "The Best in the world" Maybe you consider yourself one of the best in the world.

but the rest of us here are just average mortals. What do you call a guy on the PGA Tour that can't putt? A PGA Pro that isn't playing the PGA Tour

[iteachgolf]

The good ball striker with a crappy short game (including "Can't Putt") is the better player and will win a majority of the time. If I was a betting man I'd be putting my money on the player with average ball strikeing and a white hot putter and short game. Remember Dan, the kid above can't putt. If you can't putt you CAN NOT SCORE. if you can't score you can't win

 

NOBODY can sustain a hot putter. And the kid above couldn't putt that round. Again a HORRIBLE putter averages 36-37 putts. The good ball striker still shoots 75 putting horribly. The guy missing most of the greens can shoot under 75 but absolutely will not do it consistently and cannot sustain it. I seriously think you haven't been around anyone who hits it good. They absolutely can score better than a guy who hits 5 greens but is a ridiculous putter, and they will do it often. Even a horrible putter is gonna shoot low scores hitting 14 greens. Because even a horrible putter makes putts. They will make birdies with 14 opportunities and they will have a lot of really short par putts.

 

So you don't have to be a good putter to make puts. Dan that really make a of sense "NOT"

 

So you are saying a great putter can not sustain great putting put a great ball strike can sustain great ball striking all day. Then people here say ball striking is the hardest part of golf, thats why we spend so much time practicing it an ignore the short game.

 

You know what. You gays are running around in circles chasing you your long game tails. good luck with that :)

 

Seriously Dan, where do you do you these ridiculous stats. I sometimes wonder

 

Tell you what. You keep preaching that the long game is the way to salvation I'll be laughing while I'm sinking my 20 footers :)

 

The best in the word make 20% from 20'. And the worst still make 5%. So yes even bad putter make putts. Just not as often. But by hitting 14 greens they have a ton of opportunities and even if they make less than 10% they'll still make one. Good ball striking is sustainable. Making 20' putts isn't sustainable by anyone. Now having 28 putts a round is sustainable by many but nobody makes anywhere near half of their 20' footers and the best in the world handly make 25%. I'm not talking in circles. You just don't have a clue and are misrepresenting what I'm saying. You aren't a good ball striker and likely have never played with one.

 

Again I bet you putt just as good as I do. And you putt good enough to shoot under par yet you shoot mid 80s.

 

The problem here Dan is that you are stating stats here of (I quote) "The Best in the world" Maybe you consider yourself one of the best in the world.

but the rest of us here are just average mortals. What do you call a guy on the PGA Tour that can't put? A PGA Pro that isn't playing the PGA Tour

 

And you're missing the point. The worst putters on tour are about the equivalent of a 10 handicap putter. You putt JUST AS GOOD as the worst putters on tour. That's the thing you continue to gloss over. You likely putt better than me and could shoot under par from where I hit it on a good day. Yet you're a 10 handicap. Lee Westwood is one of the best in the world while putting like a 10 handicap. Lee Westwood is -2.8 strokes gained putting and Broadie's average for players shooting 84-97 is -2.3. Meaning he's putting WORSE than the average 10-20 handicap. Yet is still top40 in the world.

[spoonek9]

OK iteachgolf, your're right long game is more important! I'll remember that when I'm missing 5 footers for par! I'll walk off the green saying "Man that was a well played hole! I hit the green in 2 and 3 putted for bogey! I'm going to be the best at my club!".

 

You can spout all the stats you want! Your're not changing my mind! Short game gets the ball in the hole.

[Webby58]

Sorry Dan. You're just not going to sell me on ball striking being the be all end all, and the road to golfing salvation salvation.

 

Now if you a vacuum you want to sell me, Wait minute I got one of those to. Sorry

 

:)

[iteachgolf]

Sorry Dan. You're just not going to sell me on ball striking being the be all end all, and the road to golfing salvation salvation.

 

Now if you a vacuum you want to sell me, Wait minute I got one of those to. Sorry

 

:)

 

Who said it was the end all be all? Again for the 100th time it's the MOST important. And by a big margin. Shortgame is important. But less so than the long game. And the nuggets difference between ALL handicap levels in EVERY SINGLE study is ball striking. You really aren't good at comprehending basic facts. Nobody is saying don't work on shortgame or it's not important. It's just that how you hit the ball is more important and is the best predictor of playing ability.

[jerebear21]

i honestly don't know why you keep arguing about this. GIR >>>>> short game up and down saves blah blah blah

 

hit enough GIR, your opponents will and cannot sustain his par saving up and downs through out the round. it's tiring trying to make 1 putts to save par. anyone who's golf long enough knows they rather have GIR than a chip and 1 putt.

[larrybud]

No one can shoot goods scores if their short game stinks. I shot 36 yesterday in league. I had hit one fairway and 2 GIR but only had 12 putts (6 one putts). My score could have been 5 strokes higher if I hadn't made some putts.

 

And I've shot 34 while having 18 putts. Lee Westwood got to number 1 in the world with the chip yips. He is -2.8 SG putting a round and -0.8 SG around the green, so -3.6 shots a round short game yet has a stroke average of 70.7. Worst putter on tour but is 39th in the world. You can shoot good scores with a poor short game.

 

Played a kid in match play and he drove the ball 290 yards in the fairway and hit a bunch of GIR. I drove the ball 250 yards crooked and struggled to hit GIR! Guess who couldn't putt and lost that day? You can hit greens all day long, doesn't mean anything unless you can put the little ball in the hole!

 

Good luck shooting 66 missing greens

 

Theoretically you could miss every green on a par 72 and still shoot 54. So I really don't get your point

 

The point is that's not going to happen.

 

You can't go real low missing greens, no matter how good your short game is, and you can't go really high when you hit a ton of greens with good ball striking (i.e. no reloads on the tee), no matter how bad your short game is.