VJ Trolio's Book- "The Final Missing Piece of Ben Hogan's Secret Puzzle"

[birdie_man]

You think they are 20-30?

 

I do assume this isn't the first time you've looked at that sequence BTW...

[Brian Manzella]

Whoa Slice,

 

I am certainly not a Photoshop Tour Pro, but I could get into Adobe "tour school." :tongue:

 

I lined those pics up as perfect as humanly possible. I can correct EASILY for camera movement.

 

Anyhoo, I think the idea of going with a PLAYING sequence other than a PRACTICE is great. A point VJ makes.

 

The REASON Hogan moved his his that forward that soon, was he swung his arms really fast and needed a head start.

 

I feel sorry for the "Copy Hogan" crowd. They should perfect THEIR swing.

 

Remember what Dave Hill said. :ok:

[slicefixer]

Must be CIA Golf HQ down there in the swamp.........hehehehe I'll take your word for the Photoshop, etc. I have it installed, but, can't turn it on...... :tongue: The ANGLE bothers me as much as the "movement" and that cannot be corrected so, IMOP, any "data" derived is worthless.........gain a basic "understanding" of the "essence" of his swing, absolutely, reach anything close to definitive, no way IMOP..........

 

BTW, I agree 100000% on the "copy" statement.........in fact, I could not agree more!! :ok:

[Xiphos]

Sorry to jump in so late in the post here. I am not saying anyone is right or wrong including my self. I am just stating what I have found using 3-D body motion analysis systems: K-Vest and BMS/I-Club. I believe what VJ says if very true. Not that it was a secret, but a very important part one that most people have not touched upon (especially people writing books) is his pivot.

Working in the K-Vest and the I-Club with my self, students, and my boss I have found some general things to be true. In order to bio-mechanically efficient the swing must be much more left sided than what is normally taught. The move that Leadbetter popularized is wrong from an efficiency stand point. This is true for a number of reasons, one being balance. I think we can all agree that balance plays a vital role in the golf swing. When we take the club back we are not only taking the weight of the club up and out from the body, but our arms as well. Even for a skinny guy like me that ends up being 30 or more pounds. In order to stay in balance we must offset that weight. One way to do it is by not making the Leadbetter sway on the way back or being left sided. The stack and t** guys are much, much closer to being bio-mechanically correct in that regard (a lot of their other stuff is not though).

If we do make a big move back as Leadbetter teaches, we can not start the downswing with a rotation of the hips. Other wise we would basically spin off of the back leg. This move can be seen in a lot of high handicap golfers. If you make the Leadbetter move, back you must first slide the hip latterly getting them into position to turn. But, when sliding the turn will take place because we have two legs, we can not keep the turn from happing.

Back to my original point: due to 3-D digital analysis equipment that is based on true bio-mechanics (not an opinion) we can now see that what VJ is talking about, wether or not is was Hogan's "secret" is a very important idea. I have seen with my own eyes this simple concept work on golfers of all levels. The results it gets are pretty amazing, especially with high level golfers. I honestly believe Hogan's secret was hard, hard work coupled with a good understanding of his own swing and what he wanted to accomplish with it.

 

PS Joe Dante wrote an entire book and talked about his subject in great detail in the 60's or sometime way before I was born called the Four Magic Moves, He says

"The turning of the hips does take place, of course. But they turn naturally, and the turn only after the have first moved laterally to the left. You will find, if you try to move your hips laterally as far as you can, that they will turn as the move toward the limit of extension. If fact, you can hardly stop them from turning. It is quite possible that with some, as Hogan says, the lateral movement takes place involuntarily and that all they have to think about is the turning. This is undoubtedly true in his particular case and in those of a few other who keep a great deal of weight on the left leg druing the backswing."

[Xiphos]

The woods were 2* flat and 2* open. The faces were flat as a floor with no buldge or roll.

 

Wow...he had to be even better player than we all thought...I can understand perfectly a wood without a roll - I use such clubs - it's called GRT now... but without a bulge ??? He had to strike dead center each time...as all theoretical players who do not want the help of gear effect...are you sure about it ?

 

Cheers

 

I know someone who was personal friends with Hogan and he had told me once that the face was ground flat. He also had really really stiff clubs.

[drb6288]

I haven't read the book, but I have taken quite a few lessons from VJ and live very near Old Waverly. Just wanted to say that he is a super nice guy that knows pretty much what he is doing. If you are from Mississippi or are passing through and want a lesson, he is great.

[donmcd]

Correct me if I am wrong.

 

But if he truly understand the secret. Demonstrate it. Enough said.

 

He tries to, and has pictures of him doing it the book, from both front and back. He also posted the video clip on YouTube.

 

BTW, a friend of mine that learned Hogan's PRE-ACCIDENT swing from Bolt says that he thinks Trolio's action looks "girlish", and agrees with slice's view that Hogan's swing had a lot more left side pull than what VJ demonstrates. Time to get back in the time-machine!

 

Jeffy,

 

I did a "Schleeman" search and found this quote in one of his posts:

 

Do you slide, or do you rotate the lower body properly? Sliding will get you in trouble because it is a timing thing.

What I was handed down from Ben Hogan, through John Schlee, is the importance of the spin. The better you can spin and reduce lateral motion, the more consistent your ball striking will be, granted the hands and arms do their part. Hand position at address is not important.

 

Later,

Tom Bertrand

 

Considering he worked with Schlee for 7 years, I'll take his word for it. Find anything new in your time machine?

 

Hell, it ONLY makes PERFECT sense..........a GOLF SWING IS A CIRCULAR MOTION BY NATURE.......the more CIRCULAR the BODY/CORE rotates the more CIRCULAR the arms/hands work and, as a result, the more CIRCULAR (less "elliptical" might be a better way of saying it) the clubhead moves in space.......IF ANYONE can explain to me how LATERAL motion contributes to ANYTHING in a golf swing other than "weight transference" (and in this capacity the NEED for lateral can be GREATLY reduced) I'm all ears..........for instance, HOW can LATERAL motion ("side to side") contribute SPEED? HOW can LATERAL motion ("side to side") contribute ACCURACY? This "debate" is AGAIN going around and around and around, etc. etc. etc.........Trolio IS, IMOP, W R O N G ....... I think via "common sense" and video it's EASY to see that he's WRONG IF a person studies enough Hogan footage..........YOUR opinion might be 180 degrrees OPPOSITE of mine which is perfectly OK......either way we'll NEVER know the true answer as Mr. Hogan has passed into history.........

 

Slice - Is there a particular year (and related video/pics) that you believe is a most 'ideal' Hogan swing?

thanks

[juansky]

It never fails to amaze me how much you guys worship the swing of a man that played his last competitive golf before most of you were born

 

Heck the only things I remember him playing in was the 66 masters and a shells wonderful world of golf with Sam Snead.

 

That and remember I am old.

 

Now do not get me wrong, although I do not agree with a lot of things in the Hogan swing, I certainly do not dismiss it. Or his contribution to the game.

 

I just do not understand how you guys talk about him like he was a god or something or why anyone would want to write a book about the missing secret.

 

I guess its the same type of thing as the people that worship Moe Norman and his golf swing.

 

Its funny Trevino may be the best ball striker since Hogan and no one wants to copy his swing.

 

 

Well, I grew up around a VERY successful PGA Tour player who was very good friends with Mr. Hogan so that got me started.......then when I was a young boy and already a golf nut, I watched "Follow the Sun" and that added to my admiration for the man........then, my father, uncle, and I were following Miller @ Colonial one year in the late 60's (when I was a wee pup) and low and behold Mr. Hogan was walking between 6 tee and 7 green and my father saw him.......told me, "there goes the great Ben Hogan"........I didn't believe him as he and my uncle were constantly "yankin' my chain"......but after the 3rd time he told me this I KNEW he wasn't kidding.......I ran down the rough between 6 and 7 fwy's and caught him.........tugged at his sweater........asked him, "are you the great Ben Hogan?"........he smiled, tossled my hair, put his arm around me and we walked an visited for about 50 - 100 yards, whereupon he tossled my hair again, and signed my lil' badge and wished me great luck with my golf game.........so that's why I "worship" the man to an extent......plus, I was playing @ Shady Oaks in 84' with a member who was a dear friend of Mr.Hogan......after the round he introduced me to him again........spoke for coupla' minutes.......priceless.........this same man made it possible for me to actually watch Mr. Hogan hit balls (from about 200 yards away) oneday when he was practicing on the short course @ Shady....it's either a short course or an extra nine, can't remember.....doesn't matter anyway.......he was preparing to go shoot some ads @ Riviera for the Hogan Company..........anyway, he was practicing to prepare himself and his swing for the shoot........and he WAS a "cripple' as he could barely walk from the pile of balls to the cart and back, but, when that club was inserted into his hands it was exactly like pluggin' an extension cord into a fine piece of machinary.......he came to life.......still pured it even though he as 71 years old and crippled...........That's WHY I have an unending fascination and admiration for the man.........he overcame the suicide of his dad when he was 8 or 9........had NO money growing up.....POOR.......was tormented by the other caddies at Glen Garden due to his small size.......ran out of money on 3 different occasions when he first turned professional while all the while his childhood buddy, Byron Nelson, was kickin' butt..........then, right when all of his hard work was paying off, he's almost killed in an auto accident......told he might not walk again and that "tournament golf" was DEFINITELY over.......less than a year later he loses to Snead in a playoff at LA......hell, I could go on and on and on with different reasons to admire the man.......most wouldn't involve his golf swing at all.........truth be told, I admire Mr. Hogan MORE for his perseverance, heart, guts, determination, and his willingness to NOT let "life" keep him from succeeding........probably more than I do his golf swing.........I believe in LEARNING from Mr. Hogan's golf swing and NOT copying it anyway........ :)

 

As for Trevino, who says "nobody has tried to copy him"........hehehe.........first of all I don't believe in "copying" anyone.....you should LEARN from them and "paint the picture your way".......but, as far as my beliefs go, Trevino had a TREMENDOUS effect on me and my understanding of what's important in a golf swing..........can't speak for other's though.............

 

BTW Ken, Merry Christmas!

 

 

WOW, I envy you Mr. Slicefixer. Nice to have a chance to meet the Great Hogan in person and chat. :drinks:

[Lsutiger]

Just played golf with VJ at Squire's Creek. He's a pretty good golfer also!

[slicefixer]

It never fails to amaze me how much you guys worship the swing of a man that played his last competitive golf before most of you were born

 

Heck the only things I remember him playing in was the 66 masters and a shells wonderful world of golf with Sam Snead.

 

That and remember I am old.

 

Now do not get me wrong, although I do not agree with a lot of things in the Hogan swing, I certainly do not dismiss it. Or his contribution to the game.

 

I just do not understand how you guys talk about him like he was a god or something or why anyone would want to write a book about the missing secret.

 

I guess its the same type of thing as the people that worship Moe Norman and his golf swing.

 

Its funny Trevino may be the best ball striker since Hogan and no one wants to copy his swing.

 

 

Well, I grew up around a VERY successful PGA Tour player who was very good friends with Mr. Hogan so that got me started.......then when I was a young boy and already a golf nut, I watched "Follow the Sun" and that added to my admiration for the man........then, my father, uncle, and I were following Miller @ Colonial one year in the late 60's (when I was a wee pup) and low and behold Mr. Hogan was walking between 6 tee and 7 green and my father saw him.......told me, "there goes the great Ben Hogan"........I didn't believe him as he and my uncle were constantly "yankin' my chain"......but after the 3rd time he told me this I KNEW he wasn't kidding.......I ran down the rough between 6 and 7 fwy's and caught him.........tugged at his sweater........asked him, "are you the great Ben Hogan?"........he smiled, tossled my hair, put his arm around me and we walked an visited for about 50 - 100 yards, whereupon he tossled my hair again, and signed my lil' badge and wished me great luck with my golf game.........so that's why I "worship" the man to an extent......plus, I was playing @ Shady Oaks in 84' with a member who was a dear friend of Mr.Hogan......after the round he introduced me to him again........spoke for coupla' minutes.......priceless.........this same man made it possible for me to actually watch Mr. Hogan hit balls (from about 200 yards away) oneday when he was practicing on the short course @ Shady....it's either a short course or an extra nine, can't remember.....doesn't matter anyway.......he was preparing to go shoot some ads @ Riviera for the Hogan Company..........anyway, he was practicing to prepare himself and his swing for the shoot........and he WAS a "cripple' as he could barely walk from the pile of balls to the cart and back, but, when that club was inserted into his hands it was exactly like pluggin' an extension cord into a fine piece of machinary.......he came to life.......still pured it even though he as 71 years old and crippled...........That's WHY I have an unending fascination and admiration for the man.........he overcame the suicide of his dad when he was 8 or 9........had NO money growing up.....POOR.......was tormented by the other caddies at Glen Garden due to his small size.......ran out of money on 3 different occasions when he first turned professional while all the while his childhood buddy, Byron Nelson, was kickin' butt..........then, right when all of his hard work was paying off, he's almost killed in an auto accident......told he might not walk again and that "tournament golf" was DEFINITELY over.......less than a year later he loses to Snead in a playoff at LA......hell, I could go on and on and on with different reasons to admire the man.......most wouldn't involve his golf swing at all.........truth be told, I admire Mr. Hogan MORE for his perseverance, heart, guts, determination, and his willingness to NOT let "life" keep him from succeeding........probably more than I do his golf swing.........I believe in LEARNING from Mr. Hogan's golf swing and NOT copying it anyway........ :)

 

As for Trevino, who says "nobody has tried to copy him"........hehehe.........first of all I don't believe in "copying" anyone.....you should LEARN from them and "paint the picture your way".......but, as far as my beliefs go, Trevino had a TREMENDOUS effect on me and my understanding of what's important in a golf swing..........can't speak for other's though.............

 

BTW Ken, Merry Christmas!

 

 

WOW, I envy you Mr. Slicefixer. Nice to have a chance to meet the Great Hogan in person and chat. :drinks:

 

4 different occasions...........all short and sweet........and he was unbelievably kind on all 4 occasions........he was truly one of a kind and certainly deserves his legendary status.........and not just for his golf swing........his life story is a GREAT reminder to us all that great things CAN be accomplished by ANYone IF they are willing to dedicate themselves 100% and persevere through the inevitable tough times and rough spots that life WILL deal to us from time to time.........I admire the man and what he overcame as much (or more) as I do his golf swing (and I luv his golf swing), but, the man was, is, will always be a huge inspiration to me....... ;)

[psd]

I just received this book and dove in last night. At $30 for the book + $11 S&H it is a bit pricey. However, it makes a very fine companion piece to 5 Lessons. And contrary to what others were writing about the author's intent, Mr. Trolio is not picking at Mr. Hogan's lifeless remains. Rather, he is very respectful, almost reverential at times. He references 5 Lessons on many occasions and encourages the reader to learn more about Mr. Hogan's legacy by purchasing, reading, and rereading the classic. You can argue all you want about whether Mr. Trolio has offered any new insight, but he certainly followed through and published it in a handsome fashion.

 

The photos and instruction are very nicely laid out and VJ does a thorough job of describing the definitions used in the book. Newton's Second Law (of rotational motion) is a heavy slog if you, like me, have been away from the math and physics for a number of years.

 

My only other criticism is a quibble, but a glaring one at that. A glaring quibble, imagine that. In his overview, VJ describes how his own swing was described as "handsy", and when he needed a shot the most he would often miss. He used his experience at US Open sectional qualifying at East Lake in 2005 as an example. He noted that he was 18 holes away from playing in a major championship at Bethpage Black! I'm afraid all of us but VJ realize that the 2005 US Open was held several hundred miles away at Pinehurst in 2005. He could have shot 59 at East Lake and he still wasn't going to get to Bethpage Black for a major. That will have to wait until next June.

 

That sloppy editting error aside, I think this is a very insightful and fun read.

[David C]

Hi all,

 

I wondered what you all think of this?

 

RE Eye-dominance

 

I used to play snooker and having unequal parallax means I should cue it under the left side of my chin, but I don't bother. I can make a break of 60 so I'm pretty decent. Playing golf left-eye dominant and right-handed has never been a problem. I'm a decent putter, but I'm always compensating for my aim. If I aim true, by shutting my right eye, I would have to putt right eye shut; which is uncomfortable. True aim is only slightly out, as my left eye is that dominant and my right eye has got used to it after 28 years. I tried rotating my head right once upon a time as I forward pressed to start my backswing, but my swing is inconsistent, so it wasn't a true test and I can't tell if it helped. I drive, work and view my whole world with both eyes, so that's how I aim and play golf - with both.

 

RE Hogan

 

Hogan didn't mention a lot of what people ascribe to him in 5 lessons but he did say some things that contradict what other people claim. There is a poster, Sevam1 who suggests he has some torquing move and talks about great pressure under the ball of his right foot. Well, in 5 lessons, Hogan said we shouldn't have any unneccessary straining; neither is it desirable. Sevam1 also said he hit it straight from a closed stance, an open stance etc etc. Fact is - and it is a fact - you can have any secret you like, but if you tell yourself to hit it right, you can hit it right. If you tell yourself to close the clubface before impact, that ball is curving left. No secret can defy the laws of physics, the 'ball-flight laws' and the Magnus Effect. No secret move of a body part can stop you pulling the ball left if an out-to-in swing-path is the attitude your club is describing. Furthermore, you can close or open your feet a great deal, your hips as little as possible and your trunk and shoulders square and you will (given decent swing plane) hit a generally straight shot. My proof: go and do it.

 

Biomechanically, the optimum swing is Mike Austin's. But this game is not about swinging the club straight and hitting the ball far. It is about having the lowest score and for some, winning the most money and/or trophies.

 

I don't know about pre and post accident swings of Ben Hogan. Or what he did or didn't say. I don't believe anyone who says 'I'm a member of..." I used to speak to...". We have a saying in Sunday League football: 'If you are that good, you wouldn't be here'. Why do so many people put what clubs they play under their profile?!??!?!?! Ridiculous! "I play hard-stepped XXXXStiff Custom grind Miura blades, pured, spun and tip-trimmed 1/4; Titleist Prototype 6.5 degree Diamana Prototype blahblahblah." Although, that said, I'm more inclined to feel someone is genuine if they put: "Dunlop 65 Regular flex, Don't carry a driver, only a 3 wood."

 

The other day I did some thinking, having seen VJ Trolio's swing and under the premise that Ben Hogan was the greatest ball striker ever. Firstly, what does 'greatest ball-striker ever' actually mean? I would have to say long, accurate, piercing trajectory, great sound, great contact. These are the things that make a 3rd person go 'Wow!'.

 

Anyway, as outrageous as this sounds, I set out to hit the greatest ever golf shot...

 

Well, why not? Why shouldn't I? I have a decent swing to start from. I'm taller than Hogan. Stronger. More flexible. More athletic. Fitter and more balanced...

 

But I do free weights in my gym work to co-ordinate all those other little muscles and receptors. Where will I fall short? My 'golf muscles'? Probably. My timing? Most probably.

 

So I set out to try and work out how I could hit the greatest shot I could. And though it may not be the greatest shot ever, surely it would share some of the characteristics of how people have described a Hogan shot, perhaps toned down a little? Anyway...

 

So starting with contact. The purest contact - well, if you had an Iron Byron, that's going to give you some pure contact. So we're looking at swinging round one fixed point - the optimal way to obtain pure contact. So last night I went to the range and set myself up as best as I could from 5 lessons: grip, stance, posture - the works and my only backswing thought was turn both my shoulders back, rotating around my C7 at the top of my spine. The arms hands and club followed. Then I thought 'turn my shoulders through'. Not hips. Not arms, not right knee, elbow or hands. Just shoulders. The arms and hands followed suit. I had a feeling of keeping my weight central. I'm sure my weight moved about, but I was consciously trying to rotate my shoulders about this fixed point.

 

There was a distinctive straight shot. Then another and another. Then I started missing a few, from swinging to hard. But not too bad. I got into a rhythm and could swing as hard as I liked as long as I swung the same way. As soon as I pressed and it became more than the shoulders controlling the swing, it went awry. Most sounded crisp. My irons were showing white in the grooves where the cheap range ball paint was lodging. On the sweetspot mostly. Divots were remarkably shallow and about the size of a £5 note. Then I added Hogan's little twist. That worked and the shots had a real zip and great rip sound to them - presumably, the addition of a bit more club head speed from the hand twist. Then I tried rotating the hands far and fast and I got into directional problems, blocking it right and block slicing it. I wonder if that was because Hogan's swing was flatter than mine though? Maybe the club-face was so far open, the ball went in that direction firstly? No Magnus Effect there - bit like if you hold your putter blade open 45 degrees the ball will shoot right unless you hit it very hard?

 

Just by concentrating on contact, I'd gone some way to hitting a great shot.

 

Then I thought, 'the best in the world must shift their weight through the shot, give it everything they've got with every body-part'. Where I'd gone wrong in the past was to get the body-parts out of sequence - so: I'm going to concentrate on swinging my shoulders but add a weight shift for extra momentum and power.

 

Do I mean power or speed? Power I think.

 

Anyway, I've got my shoulder technique nailed down - move the swing centre though and I'll miss-hit the ball. I'll very accurately fat it, as opposed to very accurately pure it; so to speak. Trolio's method might work - it seems to me I can shift a bit of weight back, back turn to the left and locate my swing centre above my left leg and then turn my shoulders. I guess this means my ball position needs to be further forward (like Hogan in 5 lessons).

 

But no joy. I try with the hips instead of the shoulders out of frustration - big block shots or very fat. Hmmn. My knee hurts (I had surgery on my knee in 2002). This is a disaster. And I need to use the arms and hands in Hogan's sequence - that is what he felt, after all. Maybe everything Hogan did was a compensation for his hook and I found a different more perfect way of swinging with the shoulders!

 

Yeah, keep dreaming!

 

Or is it a disaster? Well, at least it is a consistent block. What used to cause my blocks? Bad plane and getting my body ahead of the bal and arms stuck. Maybe I've dipped down too much on my left knee and having to straighten upwards is straining it?

 

Today: I've looked at the videos today. Trolios is not the same as Hogan. The principle might be the same, but it is different. If he does have Hogan's pivot technique, already being a PGA pro, he should be on his way to fame and fortune.

 

I notice:

Hogan doesn't swing any weight to his right foot in the backswing. He turns.

As the swing goes from 2/3rds through 3/4s back, his right hip and therefore all that connects to it directly, moves 'behind him' towards the target.

As his club settles at the top of his backswing, his left hip begins to unturn and squeezes out to the target.

He then unturns through the shot.

I notice in one video, he demonstrates his hips giving the arms a 'free-ride' then he swings his arms through powerfully and confidently.

 

I notice Trolio swings his weight back, then as he swings up and around, he swings onto his left foot. He then turns through the shot. He doesn't have the subtle unturning of his hips and weight going left like Hogan as his backswing finishes Tiger also has this subtlety).

 

Hogan said in 5 lessons: 'To begin the downswing, TURN YOUR HIPS BACK TO THE LEFT. THERE MUST BE ENOUGH LATERAL MOTION FORWARD TO TRANSFER THE WEIGHT TO THE LEFT FOOT.' He then says the muscles which do this (not the right foot as Trolio states). (Page 90; Lesson 4, 5 Lessons). It occurs to me, Hogan has more remaining to move through the ball than Trolio, who appears to be almost completley over his left leg - all he can do is turn. Hogan can still move left - bit more power maybe?

 

I get confused though. I don't think Hogan mentions weight going to the back foot. Maybe it goes there naturally, maybe he didn't want to create swayers; but he also says of the hips that they: transfer the weight from the right foot to the left foot.

 

Mind you, Hogan mentions swinging 'just beneath the glass' and 'brushing against the glass' pp79 and 88 and in the videos, he doesn't. Maybe this was what he meant my being a better player if he had had a video camera?

 

Maybe then he wouldn't have needed the rolling of the club-face open that is mentioned in the foreword but not 5 lessons; and maybe this is what he meant by an 'athletic person who wants to learn and will put in the time and effort can take this book and become a better player than I was.' (Foreword)?

 

One thing that fascinates me is that players' swings look more dynamic and different to what they describe. I guess this is why I like Hogan. He doesn't say '80.267356236% of my weight' and say 'the arms weigh Xlbs, the COG can move but weight move...' He just describes a feeling. Much easier to replicate. I find I learn more watching and mimicking swings in full-speed than slow mo. Slow mo will draw my attention to a particular body-part when in fact it is a confluence of body activity.

[Big C]

I recently went to a pivot school taught by VJ at Old Waverly and it was great.The move works and VJ does a good job proving it with video,drills and demostrations.I would highly recommend VJ for a lesson,my game is much improved.I had read the book and liked the information so that is why I went to visit him.VJ uses Hogan as a model but just shows you how to add the Hogan pivot to your OWN swing.

[vielong]

wonderful! thanks for the info..

assurance vie

[hof]

Slice,

Facinating stuff. Could please elaborate on "...you don't need Trolio's "move" to get there IF you set up properly." You mention this in a few other posts as well but stop short of just what "setting up properly" is. Can you desribe it?

[juansky]

The Hogan pivot is elementary, not very complicated if you know how to rotate the upper body in the correct plane and angle, and making sure you turn the right hip in deep while keeping your spine angle.

If done properly, you can get most of Hogan's positions automatically. Hogan's explanations in 5 Lessons are broken down in detail which can complicate the whole swing process. The action itself is simple.

[Dariusz J.]

It is necessary to remember, however, that without a lateral CoG shift in the pelvis area before completing the backswing (the topic of Trolio's book) the motion will be more Shawn Clement's than real Hogan's.

Cheers

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' post='2029395' date='Oct 27 2009, 03:53 PM']It is necessary to remember, however, that without a lateral CoG shift in the pelvis area before completing the backswing (the topic of Trolio's book) the motion will be more Shawn Clement's than real Hogan's.

Cheers[/quote]

We have found something to agree on!!!



Cheers,
Kevin

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='kevcarter ' post='2029530' date='Oct 27 2009, 05:46 PM'][quote name='Dariusz J.' post='2029395' date='Oct 27 2009, 03:53 PM']It is necessary to remember, however, that without a lateral CoG shift in the pelvis area before completing the backswing (the topic of Trolio's book) the motion will be more Shawn Clement's than real Hogan's.

Cheers[/quote]

We have found something to agree on!!!



Cheers,
Kevin
[/quote]

Heh, we have found [b]this particular agreement[/b] long time ago (somewhere in the middle of the BioThread as far as I remeber correctly). In fact Kev, I believe we could find [b]a lot[/b] of such moments if you look with a more gracious eye to bioscience and I put less squeeze on using TGM as the best source for finding contradictory issues to my researches.

Cheers

[KevCarter]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' post='2029609' date='Oct 27 2009, 05:16 PM'][quote name='kevcarter ' post='2029530' date='Oct 27 2009, 05:46 PM'][quote name='Dariusz J.' post='2029395' date='Oct 27 2009, 03:53 PM']It is necessary to remember, however, that without a lateral CoG shift in the pelvis area before completing the backswing (the topic of Trolio's book) the motion will be more Shawn Clement's than real Hogan's.

Cheers[/quote]

We have found something to agree on!!!



Cheers,
Kevin
[/quote]

Heh, we have found [b]this particular agreement[/b] long time ago (somewhere in the middle of the BioThread as far as I remeber correctly). In fact Kev, I believe we could find [b]a lot[/b] of such moments if you look with a more gracious eye to bioscience and I put less squeeze on using TGM as the best source for finding contradictory issues to my researches.

Cheers
[/quote]

Darius,

I have no interest at all in trying to contradict your theories. I think the work you have done is AMAZING. I'm just working hard in another area and I'm not smart enough to multi-task swing theories. We all have our own programs that we enjoy, my belief is that something positive can be found in most golf swing patterns and ideologies. I'm just smitten by another, unfortunately his name is Homer, and he aint pretty.

Kevin

[SunkTheBirdie]

[attachment=1468647:Hogan Final Missing Piece Original Lines.png]

Is this the missing piece ?

[KevCarter]

[quote name='SunkTheBirdie' timestamp='1356824831' post='6135719']
[attachment=1468647:Hogan Final Missing Piece Original Lines.png]

Is this the missing piece ?
[/quote]

That, and how he gets there. I have no idea if it truly relates to Hogan, but still one of my all time favorite instructional books.

[SunkTheBirdie]

Is that picture the "Full Monte" ? (ie. a totally unrestricted (Full) hip turn to which he often refers) ?
Not this Full Monty
[attachment=1468667:full-monty1.gif]

[dairic]

[quote name='SunkTheBirdie' timestamp='1356824831' post='6135719']
[attachment=1468647:Hogan Final Missing Piece Original Lines.png]

Is this the missing piece ?
[/quote]

It's discussed in 5 lessons. He says that a center of gravity shift before the backswing ends is an allowable personal modification but not a fundamental. Don't remember the quote exactly but it's something like that.

[tembolo1284]

What a rich thread with some of my all time favorite posters.

[guisician]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357141849' post='6153233']
What a rich thread with some of my all time favorite posters.
[/quote]

Thanks for bumping this thread; I'll read it from the start tomorrow!

[tembolo1284]

read it yet?

[AlexCzervic]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1256681796' post='2029609']

Heh, we have found [b]this particular agreement[/b] long time ago (somewhere in the middle of the BioThread as far as I remeber correctly). In fact Kev, I believe we could find [b]a lot[/b] of such moments if you look with a more gracious eye to bioscience and I put less squeeze on using TGM as the best source for finding contradictory issues to my researches.

Cheers
[/quote]

Somebody dug up an old one. BEWARE! 98% of the time Darius has no idea what he is talking about. 'Researches', LOL, in retrospect I went way to easy on this buffoon.

AC

[guisician]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357335176' post='6169115']
read it yet?
[/quote]

Finally finished reading through the whole thing today; so many great, gracious slicefixer posts and plenty of lively debate.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='AlexCzervic' timestamp='1357533989' post='6181889']
[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1256681796' post='2029609']
Heh, we have found [b]this particular agreement[/b] long time ago (somewhere in the middle of the BioThread as far as I remeber correctly). In fact Kev, I believe we could find [b]a lot[/b] of such moments if you look with a more gracious eye to bioscience and I put less squeeze on using TGM as the best source for finding contradictory issues to my researches.

Cheers
[/quote]

Somebody dug up an old one. BEWARE! 98% of the time Darius has no idea what he is talking about. 'Researches', LOL, in retrospect I went way to easy on this buffoon.

AC
[/quote]

D is a nice dude. A real shame he got into fights with other clowns and got banned.