VJ Trolio's Book- "The Final Missing Piece of Ben Hogan's Secret Puzzle"

[jeffy]

[quote name='hoganfan924' post='811594' date='Dec 3 2007, 11:22 PM'][quote name='jeffy' post='811571' date='Dec 3 2007, 10:57 PM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='811441' date='Dec 3 2007, 09:01 PM']Jeffy, I've NEVER said Mr. Hogan's swing didn't contain "lateral motion".......NOR have I ever said that he didn't have a "cg shift" (kinda' like that term ) in his swing.......what I HAVE said is this, Mr. Hogan's "cg shift" served to get him into a fantastic top of the backswing position where, once completed, he could basically just "unwind left" (and you CAN get to the same top of the backswing position as Mr. Hogan WITHOUT a "cg shift"....THAT i can GUARANTEE YOU).......AND that, in Mr. Hogan's case, the "cg shift" occurred during his BACKSWING and was a necessity to OVERCOME his tendency to set up with a "high right hip" which made it impossible to simply TURN to the top of the backswing position he desired..........as for the high right hip and the amount of "cg shift" they both varied during his career........and BOTH of which are NOT necessities in order to make the same DOWNSWING as Mr. Hogan demonstrated (which, IMOP, is what is REALLY important about Mr. Hogan's golf swing)....and I KNOW this is true 100% .....in other words, he HAD to make the BACKSWING "cg shift" in order to arrive in a position at the conclusion of this backswing where he could simply "unwind" WITHOUT a lot of lateral drive being necessary in his TRANSITION.......and the amount of "cg shift" varied according to "how high his right hip was set up in his SET UP........as for the "conspiracy theory" of Mr. Hogan "hiding" his "secret move" when practicing.......LOL.........I guess it makes an interesting theory, but, so does the CIA blowing up the Pentagon on 9/11........and another thing, I've NEVER understood the fascination with Snead's golf swing, GREAT RHYTHM, TIMING, FANTASTIC ATHLETICISM, but, the man played varying degrees of a PULL his entire career......mostly a PULL FADE.....and certainly wasn't in Hogan's league for virtual TOTAL control over a golf ball.........IMOP (and apparantly almost all of their peers too)...............

BTW, I'm about through debating Mr. Hogan's "secret" as we all know that there is NO definitive answer......it appears the man took it to his grave........I sure as hell don't think he told his shag boy and NOT Burke, Dickinson, Schlee, Byrum, etc........and IF Gardner knew he took it to his grave.......Schlee too apparantly........Mr. Burke's never said, in fact, if you ask him he'll just chuckle..........and Tommy Byrum doesn't know either........etc. etc.[/quote]

Uh, for starters, I [b]NEVER[/b] said or implied that [b]YOU[/b] wrote that "Mr. Hogan's swing didn't contain 'lateral motion'". It is Hoganfan's theory that Hogan [b]didn't want any[/b] lateral movement. I don't believe it, and, obviously, neither do you.

I interpret what you have said above to mean that you essentially agree with Trolio: that Hogan completed his targetward shift during the backswing. As I said, he has a case. For someone as astute as you to agree is quite an endorsement. As for the Oliver Stone stuff: very entertaining, but who knows?

I think you sell Sam a little short. In interviews that I have seen, both Byron Nelson and Patty Berg [b]CLEARLY[/b] thought Snead's swing was the [i]ne plus ultra[/i]. According to Dodson, Hogan thought the same thing. I've been told that there is some incredible footage of Snead hitting all the shots as laid out by Mac and MORAD. I hope to see it at the end of next week.

As far as Hogan's "secret" goes, a friend of mine (a former tour pro and multiple winner) that is very close to Bolt has told me that there was a "secret" shared with the very inner circle, but that they have all said nothing publicly, and "taken it to the grave". As you might guess, it is said to involve quite a bit of left side pull. Also, I'm told that Claude Harmon passed it on to Butch, who passed it on to Tiger. Interestingly enough, my friend tells me that 1) we should all look at Tiger's swing and forget Hogan, and 2) what Hardy teaches is superior to anything he learned from Hogan via Bolt. Very provocative, indeed.
[/quote]

Jeffy,

You sure are the master of the "creative misinterpretation!," Or at least you're trying to be. I addressed this in my above post which you choose to ignore and put words in my mouth again that I didn't say.

To state that Slicefixer would "endorse" Trolio's conclusions just because they observe the same motion (which again, I described months ago and linked to above) is pretty funny. Slicefixer has cleary explained his disagreement with Trolio's conclusions. Nice try, but you're not fooling anyone here.

Concerning Trolio's conspiracy theory about Hogan swinging differently when the cameras were around is just an indication to me of sloppy detective work. Virtually every piece of post accident video footage I've seen (1956 Mexico City, 1955 US Open, 1965 WWoG, 1967 Pursuit of Perfection and many others) show this lateral move. The amount of lateral certainly varied based on what club he was hitting and over time, but to claim he didn't do it when the cameras were rolling just isn't supported by the film evidence.

As far as the "left side pull" being a secret, umm, just read the Nick Seitz interview which became the new forward to Golf Digests 1985 edition of 5 lessons, Hogan states among other things (I'm paraphrasing since I don't have it in front of me) "You have to do it with the left arm." Also very evident in the film footage. Big secret!!!
[/quote]

Perhaps you could indulge me and explain what disagreement exists between you, slice and Trolio. As I understand it, you all agree that Hogan moved his lower body towards the target during the backswing. Did I miss something? Slice doesn't think Trolio's swing looks like Hogan's, but Trolio doesn't claim that it does. What "disagreement" with Trolio are you referring to?

I also interpreted your comments to mean that you believed that Hogan didn't want any lateral movement in his swing. Am I wrong? Doesn't matter to me; I thought I was accurately reflecting your feelings.

As I said, as far as the Oliver Stone-stuff goes, I don't really have an opinion. Some swings look like the lateral move is completed in the backswing; others look like it occurs in the downswing. I guess you think it is obvious that it was completed during the backswing in every swing; is that right?

As far as the undisclosed secret goes, I don't know what it is, but I'm told that Burke, Venturi, Bolt, etc. do. I don't know what it is, but I'm not making it up that I've been told that it exists. I thought forum members, including you, might be interested in this information, but you seem to a have a huge "not invented here" complex. Of course, you're Hoganfan: who am I to presume that I know something about Hogan that you don't? Get a life, dude.

[Points]

"Get a life, dude" yet another classy act.

[hoganfan924]

[quote]Perhaps you could indulge me and explain what disagreement exists between you, slice and Trolio. As I understand it, you all agree that Hogan moved his lower body towards the target during the backswing. Did I miss something? Slice doesn't think Trolio's swing looks like Hogan's, but Trolio doesn't claim that it does. What "disagreement" with Trolio are you referring to?[/quote]

Pretty simple really, Trolio makes an assertion that Hogan's lateral move and the sequencing of it was his secret. I disagree. He makes this claim as if somehow, the fact that Hogan even [b]had[/b] a lateral move is some kind of secret as well that Hogan himself protected by changing his swing when the cameras were rolling. We disagree on that as well. Hogan's lateral move has been discussed numerous times on this forum. I described it in great detail in the S&T thread. Slicefixer and Jeffmann have written about it as well. It is evident on numerous films taken throughout his career. Hogan himself described how the lower body starts moving on the downswing while the upper body is still moving back in the backswing in 5 Lessons. Big secret, huh? Riiiight.

[quote]I also interpreted your comments to mean that you believed that Hogan didn't want any lateral movement in his swing. Am I wrong? Doesn't matter to me; I thought I was accurately reflecting your feelings.[/quote]

The amount of Hogan's lateral motions depends greatly on the interpretation of what constititutes the backswing and what constitutes the downswing as I and Slicefixer have written about before numerous times. If the end of the backswing is where the upper body transitions, then Hogan had very little lateral motion. If it is defined as when the lower body starts moving forward then it is a lot. I believe that Hogan desired to minimize lateral motion which is why IMO it got such minimal coverage in 5 lessons, not because it was some secret he wished to hide. I received a very detailed explanation of Hogan's wishes in this regard from Tom Bertrand which made perfect sense to me and is supported by the video evidence. I will not reprint it here since it was sent to me in a private email. I found his explanation very credible. Considering he worked directly with Schlee for several years, I find it much more credible than Trolio's conspiracy theory.

[quote]As I said, as far as the Oliver Stone-stuff goes, I don't really have an opinion. Some swings look like the lateral move is completed in the backswing; others look like it occurs in the downswing. I guess you think it is obvious that it was completed during the backswing in every swing; is that right?[/quote]

No one could answer that question because no one has seen every swing Hogan ever made. I believe you will find differences between his pre and post accident swings, which is perhaps where Trolio erred. Now, [b]if[/b] Hogan varied [b]when[/b] he made the lateral move, you've just made the best case for why he wouldn't like it - inconsistency, a timing element.

[quote]As far as the undisclosed secret goes, I don't know what it is, but I'm told that Burke, Venturi, Bolt, etc. do. I don't know what it is, but I'm not making it up that I've been told that it exists. I thought forum members, including you, might be interested in this information, but you seem to a have a huge "not invented here" complex. Of course, you're Hoganfan: who am I to presume that I know something about Hogan that you don't?[/quote]

I believe Hogan had many "secrets." I believe he shared some of these with his inner circle. Some of his inner circle have even revealed bits and pieces of these in different interviews. I'm always searching for what new insights someone might offer about Hogan's swing. Trolio's isn't one of them based on the reviews of his book in this thread.

[quote]Get a life, dude[/quote]

How many times have you been banned or suspended from golf forums? Get a life indeed.

[Points]

Regardless of how you define the start of the downswing, lateral motion is lateral motion. You either move into your right side or you don't. Could happen at the start, the middle, or the end of the backswing. Seems to me lateral motion is very black and white.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='Points' post='811794' date='Dec 4 2007, 08:59 AM']Regardless of how you define the start of the downswing, lateral motion is lateral motion. You either move into your right side or you don't. Could happen at the start, the middle, or the end of the backswing. Seems to me lateral motion is very black and white.[/quote]

Yes, I agree with you points. I didn't state that in the most clear way. My main point is that different people define things differently. Some will define the end of Hogan's backswing when the lower body starts moving forward and others will define it as when the upper body starts forward. Depending on the point of view, Hogan either has a lot of lateral motion in his downswing or he has a lot in his backswing. People will then use pictures of either of these 2 different positions to make specific points about Hogan's swing and call them the "top of the swing." It can be very confusing and misleading depending on the point being made.

In my view, what happens when Hogan starts rotating the pelvis (clearing the left hip) is the key "crossroad" in his swing, and he himself defined this as the first move of the downswing in 5 lessons. Starting from that point, he has very little lateral move and is simply clearing his left side just as he prescribed in 5 lessons. Since as, Jeffy pointed out, he mentions this clearing move 40 times but only mentions lateral motion 3 times (as almost an afterthought) my conclusion that Hogan did not care for much lateral motion I believe is more supported by the evidence than the position that his lateral move was his "secret."

[PurePursuit]

Wouldn't the easiest way to describe it be that he got his weight to his left side and turned around it. You can debate all day if he moved towards the target to do this, but if he did it really doesn't appear to be much motion at all. Hoganfan is right, he mentions "clearing the hips" a lot in 5 lessons and not so much about lateral motion.

[jeffy]

[quote name='hoganfan924' post='811776' date='Dec 4 2007, 08:39 AM'][quote]Perhaps you could indulge me and explain what disagreement exists between you, slice and Trolio. As I understand it, you all agree that Hogan moved his lower body towards the target during the backswing. Did I miss something? Slice doesn't think Trolio's swing looks like Hogan's, but Trolio doesn't claim that it does. What "disagreement" with Trolio are you referring to?[/quote]

Pretty simple really, Trolio makes an assertion that Hogan's lateral move and the sequencing of it was his secret. I disagree. He makes this claim as if somehow, the fact that Hogan even [b]had[/b] a lateral move is some kind of secret as well that Hogan himself protected by changing his swing when the cameras were rolling. We disagree on that as well. Hogan's lateral move has been discussed numerous times on this forum. I described it in great detail in the S&T thread. Slicefixer and Jeffmann have written about it as well. It is evident on numerous films taken throughout his career. Hogan himself described how the lower body starts moving on the downswing while the upper body is still moving back in the backswing in 5 Lessons. Big secret, huh? Riiiight.[/quote]

OK; so you agree on the substance; that's what I thought. The "secret" stuff, well, you and slice and Hardy and others maybe knew what he was doing, but that move is far from the "conventional wisdom" on Hogan. I think McLean disagrees pretty strongly with the "slide occured in the backswing" view. In any case, I'm unaware of anything published on it in any great detail, and it certainly isn't spelled out in [i]Five Lessons[/i]. And, btw, I interpret JeffMann's opinion (from one of his posts above) to be that Hogan did not slide during the backswing, only in the downswing.

[quote][quote]I also interpreted your comments to mean that you believed that Hogan didn't want any lateral movement in his swing. Am I wrong? Doesn't matter to me; I thought I was accurately reflecting your feelings.[/quote]

The amount of Hogan's lateral motions depends greatly on the interpretation of what constititutes the backswing and what constitutes the downswing as I and Slicefixer have written about before numerous times. If the end of the backswing is where the upper body transitions, then Hogan had very little lateral motion. If it is defined as when the lower body starts moving forward then it is a lot. I believe that Hogan desired to minimize lateral motion which is why IMO it got such minimal coverage in 5 lessons, not because it was some secret he wished to hide. I received a very detailed explanation of Hogan's wishes in this regard from Tom Bertrand which made perfect sense to me and is supported by the video evidence. I will not reprint it here since it was sent to me in a private email. I found his explanation very credible. Considering he worked directly with Schlee for several years, I find it much more credible than Trolio's conspiracy theory.[/quote]

That is interesting stuff from Bertrand. I'm sure Trolio would be interested in learning about it. I agree it sounds more credible than the conspiracy stuff.

[quote][quote]Get a life, dude[/quote]

How many times have you been banned or suspended from golf forums? Get a life indeed.
[/quote]

Twice from here, a little over 30 days ago and 15 days before that. I guess I was too much of a dick towards a certain retired doctor. Quinton banned me, but that is because I called him out on ripping off Hardy; I'm hardly the only one to have had that happen. That's it. Nothing that I'm ashamed of.

[hoganfan924]

[quote]OK; so you agree on the substance; that's what I thought. The "secret" stuff, well, you and slice and Hardy and others maybe knew what he was doing, but that move is far from the "conventional wisdom" on Hogan. I think McLean disagrees pretty strongly with the "slide occured in the backswing" view. In any case, I'm unaware of anything published on it in any great detail, and it certainly isn't spelled out in [i]Five Lessons[/i]. And, btw, I interpret JeffMann's opinion (from one of his posts above) to be that Hogan did not slide during the backswing, only in the downswing.[/quote]
I think we understand each other much better now. I think Trolio and I are in agreement as to what Hogan [b]did[/b], but not as to the [b]meaning or significance [/b]of it. I was not aware that "conventional wisdom" held that Hogan didn't have a lateral move since it is so plainly evident on numerous film clips, the best of which is the Shell's WWoG "lesson" filmed at high speed (probably 140 - 150 fps) at the end of the video. I count 133 frames from take-away to impact and 9 full frames of his pelvis [b]translating[/b] forward at the end of his backswing before I notice any pelvic [b]rotation[/b] back to the left, so clearly Hogan wasn't attempting to hide this feature of his swing. I have all of the McLean DVD's on Hogan but can't remember what he mentions about Hogan's lateral move.

Regarding the lower body moving forward while the upper body is still winding in the backswing, Hogan had this to say on pg. 93 of 5 Lessons:

"Initiating the downswing with the hips is of such critical importance that many top-rung golfers sensing that their timing will be better accomodated, start to turn their hips to the left a fraction of a second before the club reaches the top of the backswing. There's nothing wrong with this. It amounts to a personal modification and it underlines, if anything, the salient fact that under no condition should the downswing be inaugurated by the hands."

This point might have actually been "radical" in his day since it is completely counter to earlier instructors like Tommy Armour who advised in his book to pause at the top of the swing.

The points above, and those I've previously made are why I believe that his lateral move and the fact that it started while his upper body was still winding up is not "[i][b]the[/b][/i]" secret (or even "[b][i]a[/i][/b]" secret, at least to anyone with an interest in studying Hogan).

The disagreement/misunderstanding amongst different swing experts again may just be a matter of the definition of what is backswing and what is downswing.

[quote]That is interesting stuff from Bertrand. I'm sure Trolio would be interested in learning about it. I agree it sounds more credible than the conspiracy stuff.[/quote]
Bertrand (Schleeman on this site) was quite generous with me in offering up information. Easy enough to PM him inquiring about this aspect of Hogan's swing if you desire more detail from his perspective.

[slicefixer]

[quote name='jeffy' post='811865' date='Dec 4 2007, 11:39 AM'][quote name='hoganfan924' post='811776' date='Dec 4 2007, 08:39 AM'][quote]Perhaps you could indulge me and explain what disagreement exists between you, slice and Trolio. As I understand it, you all agree that Hogan moved his lower body towards the target during the backswing. Did I miss something? Slice doesn't think Trolio's swing looks like Hogan's, but Trolio doesn't claim that it does. What "disagreement" with Trolio are you referring to?[/quote]

Pretty simple really, Trolio makes an assertion that Hogan's lateral move and the sequencing of it was his secret. I disagree. He makes this claim as if somehow, the fact that Hogan even [b]had[/b] a lateral move is some kind of secret as well that Hogan himself protected by changing his swing when the cameras were rolling. We disagree on that as well. Hogan's lateral move has been discussed numerous times on this forum. I described it in great detail in the S&T thread. Slicefixer and Jeffmann have written about it as well. It is evident on numerous films taken throughout his career. Hogan himself described how the lower body starts moving on the downswing while the upper body is still moving back in the backswing in 5 Lessons. Big secret, huh? Riiiight.[/quote]

OK; so you agree on the substance; that's what I thought. The "secret" stuff, well, you and slice and Hardy and others maybe knew what he was doing, but that move is far from the "conventional wisdom" on Hogan. I think McLean disagrees pretty strongly with the "slide occured in the backswing" view. In any case, I'm unaware of anything published on it in any great detail, and it certainly isn't spelled out in [i]Five Lessons[/i]. And, btw, I interpret JeffMann's opinion (from one of his posts above) to be that Hogan did not slide during the backswing, only in the downswing.

[quote][quote]I also interpreted your comments to mean that you believed that Hogan didn't want any lateral movement in his swing. Am I wrong? Doesn't matter to me; I thought I was accurately reflecting your feelings.[/quote]

The amount of Hogan's lateral motions depends greatly on the interpretation of what constititutes the backswing and what constitutes the downswing as I and Slicefixer have written about before numerous times. If the end of the backswing is where the upper body transitions, then Hogan had very little lateral motion. If it is defined as when the lower body starts moving forward then it is a lot. I believe that Hogan desired to minimize lateral motion which is why IMO it got such minimal coverage in 5 lessons, not because it was some secret he wished to hide. I received a very detailed explanation of Hogan's wishes in this regard from Tom Bertrand which made perfect sense to me and is supported by the video evidence. I will not reprint it here since it was sent to me in a private email. I found his explanation very credible. Considering he worked directly with Schlee for several years, I find it much more credible than Trolio's conspiracy theory.[/quote]

That is interesting stuff from Bertrand. I'm sure Trolio would be interested in learning about it. I agree it sounds more credible than the conspiracy stuff.

[quote][quote]Get a life, dude[/quote]

How many times have you been banned or suspended from golf forums? Get a life indeed.
[/quote]

Twice from here, a little over 30 days ago and 15 days before that. I guess I was too much of a dick towards a certain retired doctor. Quinton banned me, but that is because I called him out on ripping off Hardy; I'm hardly the only one to have had that happen. That's it. Nothing that I'm ashamed of.
[/quote]

Jeffy, I can;'t speak for Mr. Quinton, but I CAN G U A R A N T E E you that Mr. Hardy did NOT invent the concepts of "1p vs 2p".........there are a BUNCH of us that have discussed this very same thing on NUMEROUSl occasions WAY before I knew who Mr. Hardy was/is........hell, go research here are on BSG and I posted about "Modern vs. Old School" BEFORE ANY of Jim's stuff was published/known.......and I'm NOT the only person that had observed and figured out there were basically TWO ways to release a golf club.........meaning you either LET the club release or you MAKE the club release........and with each "style" of release there are certain "moves" (I call them "pieces" to a jigsaw puzzle) that are ESSENTIAL to one puzzle, but, DISASTEROUS to the other......Homer Kelly talked about it...."pushing vs. pulling"...etc.

SO, with that being said, Mr. Quinton might well have NOT ripped off Jim Hardy........I can tell you ONE thing for CERTAIN......Jim Hardy has invented/discovered nothing........he WAS the first to PUBLISH and REPORT his "ideas" .......BIG DIFFERENCE IMOP...........IMOP there's not been anything earth shattering "discovered" in regards to the golf swing since Mr. Nelson/Mr. Hogan, etc. figured out there WERE some things you could do "different"/"better" with a STEEL shaft vs. a HICKORY shaft..........the rest has been out there for a LONG time........NOW, Mr. Hardy DID "invent" his OWN unique way of "saying/expressing things" and apparantly HIS "way" made a difference to a LOT of golfers.......and GOOD FOR THEM!!

Jeff, Jim Hardy does NOT need you defending him all over the net.........he IS a "big boy" and CAN handle any criticism, whether FAIR or UNfair........IMOP........

One other thing, you ARE a source of information that CAN benefit the golfers, hell, even the TEACHERS, on this board (or any other golf swing board), but, you need to "tone it down a bit"........just my advice......you didn't ask for it........but, as you and I have had pleasant conversations in the past I KNOW you are capable of it........and you DO know quite a bit about swinging a golf club so ADD to the discussion instead of DESTROYING the discussion.........However, IF you keep LOGGING ON "pissed off" you'll eventually get banned from this board and, IMOP, that would be a shame.......

JMOP........

[jeffy]

Slice-

There really isn't much point in you speculating about the relationship between Hardy and Quinton. You don't know anything about it, so, until we have the opportunity to sit down over a few cold ones, why don't you just stay away from this topic?

Fondly,

Jeff

[slicefixer]

[quote name='jeffy' post='812645' date='Dec 4 2007, 10:58 PM']Slice-

There really isn't much point in you speculating about the relationship between Hardy and Quinton. You don't know anything about it, so, until we have the opportunity to sit down over a few cold ones, why don't you just stay away from this topic?

Fondly,

Jeff[/quote]


Fair enough............

[tc_f210]

[quote name='hoganfan924' post='812440' date='Dec 4 2007, 08:53 PM'][quote]OK; so you agree on the substance; that's what I thought. The "secret" stuff, well, you and slice and Hardy and others maybe knew what he was doing, but that move is far from the "conventional wisdom" on Hogan. I think McLean disagrees pretty strongly with the "slide occured in the backswing" view. In any case, I'm unaware of anything published on it in any great detail, and it certainly isn't spelled out in [i]Five Lessons[/i]. And, btw, I interpret JeffMann's opinion (from one of his posts above) to be that Hogan did not slide during the backswing, only in the downswing.[/quote]
I think we understand each other much better now. I think Trolio and I are in agreement as to what Hogan [b]did[/b], but not as to the [b]meaning or significance [/b]of it. I was not aware that "conventional wisdom" held that Hogan didn't have a lateral move since it is so plainly evident on numerous film clips, the best of which is the Shell's WWoG "lesson" filmed at high speed (probably 140 - 150 fps) at the end of the video. I count 133 frames from take-away to impact and 9 full frames of his pelvis [b]translating[/b] forward at the end of his backswing before I notice any pelvic [b]rotation[/b] back to the left, so clearly Hogan wasn't attempting to hide this feature of his swing. I have all of the McLean DVD's on Hogan but can't remember what he mentions about Hogan's lateral move.

Regarding the lower body moving forward while the upper body is still winding in the backswing, Hogan had this to say on pg. 93 of 5 Lessons:

"Initiating the downswing with the hips is of such critical importance that many top-rung golfers sensing that their timing will be better accomodated, start to turn their hips to the left a fraction of a second before the club reaches the top of the backswing. There's nothing wrong with this. It amounts to a personal modification and it underlines, if anything, the salient fact that under no condition should the downswing be inaugurated by the hands."

This point might have actually been "radical" in his day since it is completely counter to earlier instructors like Tommy Armour who advised in his book to pause at the top of the swing.

The points above, and those I've previously made are why I believe that his lateral move and the fact that it started while his upper body was still winding up is not "[i][b]the[/b][/i]" secret (or even "[b][i]a[/i][/b]" secret, at least to anyone with an interest in studying Hogan).

The disagreement/misunderstanding amongst different swing experts again may just be a matter of the definition of what is backswing and what is downswing.

[quote]That is interesting stuff from Bertrand. I'm sure Trolio would be interested in learning about it. I agree it sounds more credible than the conspiracy stuff.[/quote]
Bertrand (Schleeman on this site) was quite generous with me in offering up information. Easy enough to PM him inquiring about this aspect of Hogan's swing if you desire more detail from his perspective.
[/quote]

this was hardly original to Hogan. it's right out of Percy Boomer's book "On Learning Golf". I don't know the exact page number, but I have read the book, which I believe was published in like 1946 or so.

[slicefixer]

[quote name='tc_f210' post='812777' date='Dec 5 2007, 01:04 AM'][quote name='hoganfan924' post='812440' date='Dec 4 2007, 08:53 PM'][quote]OK; so you agree on the substance; that's what I thought. The "secret" stuff, well, you and slice and Hardy and others maybe knew what he was doing, but that move is far from the "conventional wisdom" on Hogan. I think McLean disagrees pretty strongly with the "slide occured in the backswing" view. In any case, I'm unaware of anything published on it in any great detail, and it certainly isn't spelled out in [i]Five Lessons[/i]. And, btw, I interpret JeffMann's opinion (from one of his posts above) to be that Hogan did not slide during the backswing, only in the downswing.[/quote]
I think we understand each other much better now. I think Trolio and I are in agreement as to what Hogan [b]did[/b], but not as to the [b]meaning or significance [/b]of it. I was not aware that "conventional wisdom" held that Hogan didn't have a lateral move since it is so plainly evident on numerous film clips, the best of which is the Shell's WWoG "lesson" filmed at high speed (probably 140 - 150 fps) at the end of the video. I count 133 frames from take-away to impact and 9 full frames of his pelvis [b]translating[/b] forward at the end of his backswing before I notice any pelvic [b]rotation[/b] back to the left, so clearly Hogan wasn't attempting to hide this feature of his swing. I have all of the McLean DVD's on Hogan but can't remember what he mentions about Hogan's lateral move.

Regarding the lower body moving forward while the upper body is still winding in the backswing, Hogan had this to say on pg. 93 of 5 Lessons:

"Initiating the downswing with the hips is of such critical importance that many top-rung golfers sensing that their timing will be better accomodated, start to turn their hips to the left a fraction of a second before the club reaches the top of the backswing. There's nothing wrong with this. It amounts to a personal modification and it underlines, if anything, the salient fact that under no condition should the downswing be inaugurated by the hands."

This point might have actually been "radical" in his day since it is completely counter to earlier instructors like Tommy Armour who advised in his book to pause at the top of the swing.

The points above, and those I've previously made are why I believe that his lateral move and the fact that it started while his upper body was still winding up is not "[i][b]the[/b][/i]" secret (or even "[b][i]a[/i][/b]" secret, at least to anyone with an interest in studying Hogan).

The disagreement/misunderstanding amongst different swing experts again may just be a matter of the definition of what is backswing and what is downswing.

[quote]That is interesting stuff from Bertrand. I'm sure Trolio would be interested in learning about it. I agree it sounds more credible than the conspiracy stuff.[/quote]
Bertrand (Schleeman on this site) was quite generous with me in offering up information. Easy enough to PM him inquiring about this aspect of Hogan's swing if you desire more detail from his perspective.
[/quote]

this was hardly original to Hogan. it's right out of Percy Boomer's book "On Learning Golf". I don't know the exact page number, but I have read the book, which I believe was published in like 1946 or so.
[/quote]


Jeez, I thought it was published BEFORE that........have to dig up my copy and see when it was originally published........GREAT book though.......a MUST read for all serious golf swing afficionado's IMOP............

[tc_f210]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='812795' date='Dec 5 2007, 01:22 AM'][quote name='tc_f210' post='812777' date='Dec 5 2007, 01:04 AM'][quote name='hoganfan924' post='812440' date='Dec 4 2007, 08:53 PM'][quote]OK; so you agree on the substance; that's what I thought. The "secret" stuff, well, you and slice and Hardy and others maybe knew what he was doing, but that move is far from the "conventional wisdom" on Hogan. I think McLean disagrees pretty strongly with the "slide occured in the backswing" view. In any case, I'm unaware of anything published on it in any great detail, and it certainly isn't spelled out in [i]Five Lessons[/i]. And, btw, I interpret JeffMann's opinion (from one of his posts above) to be that Hogan did not slide during the backswing, only in the downswing.[/quote]
I think we understand each other much better now. I think Trolio and I are in agreement as to what Hogan [b]did[/b], but not as to the [b]meaning or significance [/b]of it. I was not aware that "conventional wisdom" held that Hogan didn't have a lateral move since it is so plainly evident on numerous film clips, the best of which is the Shell's WWoG "lesson" filmed at high speed (probably 140 - 150 fps) at the end of the video. I count 133 frames from take-away to impact and 9 full frames of his pelvis [b]translating[/b] forward at the end of his backswing before I notice any pelvic [b]rotation[/b] back to the left, so clearly Hogan wasn't attempting to hide this feature of his swing. I have all of the McLean DVD's on Hogan but can't remember what he mentions about Hogan's lateral move.

Regarding the lower body moving forward while the upper body is still winding in the backswing, Hogan had this to say on pg. 93 of 5 Lessons:

"Initiating the downswing with the hips is of such critical importance that many top-rung golfers sensing that their timing will be better accomodated, start to turn their hips to the left a fraction of a second before the club reaches the top of the backswing. There's nothing wrong with this. It amounts to a personal modification and it underlines, if anything, the salient fact that under no condition should the downswing be inaugurated by the hands."

This point might have actually been "radical" in his day since it is completely counter to earlier instructors like Tommy Armour who advised in his book to pause at the top of the swing.

The points above, and those I've previously made are why I believe that his lateral move and the fact that it started while his upper body was still winding up is not "[i][b]the[/b][/i]" secret (or even "[b][i]a[/i][/b]" secret, at least to anyone with an interest in studying Hogan).

The disagreement/misunderstanding amongst different swing experts again may just be a matter of the definition of what is backswing and what is downswing.

[quote]That is interesting stuff from Bertrand. I'm sure Trolio would be interested in learning about it. I agree it sounds more credible than the conspiracy stuff.[/quote]
Bertrand (Schleeman on this site) was quite generous with me in offering up information. Easy enough to PM him inquiring about this aspect of Hogan's swing if you desire more detail from his perspective.
[/quote]

this was hardly original to Hogan. it's right out of Percy Boomer's book "On Learning Golf". I don't know the exact page number, but I have read the book, which I believe was published in like 1946 or so.
[/quote]


Jeez, I thought it was published BEFORE that........have to dig up my copy and see when it was originally published........GREAT book though.......a MUST read for all serious golf swing afficionado's IMOP............
[/quote]

couldn't agree more. Boomer was light years ahead of his time

[slicefixer]

[quote name='tc_f210' post='812984' date='Dec 5 2007, 10:33 AM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='812795' date='Dec 5 2007, 01:22 AM'][quote name='tc_f210' post='812777' date='Dec 5 2007, 01:04 AM'][quote name='hoganfan924' post='812440' date='Dec 4 2007, 08:53 PM'][quote]OK; so you agree on the substance; that's what I thought. The "secret" stuff, well, you and slice and Hardy and others maybe knew what he was doing, but that move is far from the "conventional wisdom" on Hogan. I think McLean disagrees pretty strongly with the "slide occured in the backswing" view. In any case, I'm unaware of anything published on it in any great detail, and it certainly isn't spelled out in [i]Five Lessons[/i]. And, btw, I interpret JeffMann's opinion (from one of his posts above) to be that Hogan did not slide during the backswing, only in the downswing.[/quote]
I think we understand each other much better now. I think Trolio and I are in agreement as to what Hogan [b]did[/b], but not as to the [b]meaning or significance [/b]of it. I was not aware that "conventional wisdom" held that Hogan didn't have a lateral move since it is so plainly evident on numerous film clips, the best of which is the Shell's WWoG "lesson" filmed at high speed (probably 140 - 150 fps) at the end of the video. I count 133 frames from take-away to impact and 9 full frames of his pelvis [b]translating[/b] forward at the end of his backswing before I notice any pelvic [b]rotation[/b] back to the left, so clearly Hogan wasn't attempting to hide this feature of his swing. I have all of the McLean DVD's on Hogan but can't remember what he mentions about Hogan's lateral move.

Regarding the lower body moving forward while the upper body is still winding in the backswing, Hogan had this to say on pg. 93 of 5 Lessons:

"Initiating the downswing with the hips is of such critical importance that many top-rung golfers sensing that their timing will be better accomodated, start to turn their hips to the left a fraction of a second before the club reaches the top of the backswing. There's nothing wrong with this. It amounts to a personal modification and it underlines, if anything, the salient fact that under no condition should the downswing be inaugurated by the hands."

This point might have actually been "radical" in his day since it is completely counter to earlier instructors like Tommy Armour who advised in his book to pause at the top of the swing.

The points above, and those I've previously made are why I believe that his lateral move and the fact that it started while his upper body was still winding up is not "[i][b]the[/b][/i]" secret (or even "[b][i]a[/i][/b]" secret, at least to anyone with an interest in studying Hogan).

The disagreement/misunderstanding amongst different swing experts again may just be a matter of the definition of what is backswing and what is downswing.

[quote]That is interesting stuff from Bertrand. I'm sure Trolio would be interested in learning about it. I agree it sounds more credible than the conspiracy stuff.[/quote]
Bertrand (Schleeman on this site) was quite generous with me in offering up information. Easy enough to PM him inquiring about this aspect of Hogan's swing if you desire more detail from his perspective.
[/quote]

this was hardly original to Hogan. it's right out of Percy Boomer's book "On Learning Golf". I don't know the exact page number, but I have read the book, which I believe was published in like 1946 or so.
[/quote]


Jeez, I thought it was published BEFORE that........have to dig up my copy and see when it was originally published........GREAT book though.......a MUST read for all serious golf swing afficionado's IMOP............
[/quote]

couldn't agree more. Boomer was light years ahead of his time
[/quote]


Yep.....agree 100%......LOTS of great information that will, at the very least, get a person to THINK about the ROTATIONAL aspects of a golf swing..........

[jeffy]

How does he prove that Hogan has most of his weight over the left foot at the end-backswing position.

 

Jeff.

 

VJ covers this at length because, while preparing his book, he had a recurring premonition that a mysterious figure in tights, holding a miniature golf club and wearing a funny hat, would pose that very question and that he wouldn't be able to provide sufficient "evidentiary support" to satisfy his questioner. The premonition ate away at him, and forced him to dig deeper and deeper into his research.

 

After thoroughly studying all the Hogan swing video he could find, and consulting some engineering friends for help with the analysis, VJ was still dissatisfied that his research would withstand the scrutiny of the strange-accented, gnome-like creature in his premonition. Eventually he concluded that the only way he could PROVE his theory was to verify it with Hogan himself!

 

VJ went to Wal-Mart and bought two inexpensive bathroom scales, then borrowed his neighbor's time machine, and traveled back to the 1967 Masters, to the very day that Clem Darracott shot the now famous In Pursuit of Perfection footage. VJ reasoned that if he were at the practice range at exactly the same time Hogan waved Darracott "inside the ropes", he could tag along, and perhaps persuade Hogan to take a few swings with each foot on a different scale, so he could verify his weight distribution estimates.

 

The plan worked without a hitch until VJ approached Hogan on the range and, after a brief explanation of who he was and why he was there, asked Hogan if he wouldn't mind helping with VJ's research. Hogan's face turned grim as he shook it "no", then he snarled "I've got just one eye, you know". As if to add emphasis, Hogan ripped his next practice shot twenty yards over his caddy's head, who fell down trying to reach it.

 

Shaken by the harsh rebuff, VJ stood by in silence and watched Hogan finish his practice session. You can see him below in a still from the Darracott film, the younger fellow in the white shirt, standing to the right of Gardner Dickinson and Claude Harmon. The bathroom scales are just out of the frame, at VJ's feet:

 

 

After Hogan finished his practice and was preparing to leave the range, he turned to VJ and fixed him with the famous Hogan "stare". Hogan said simply: "Son, the answers are in the dirt", then turned away, and proceeded to the putting green.

 

Obviously, VJ was deflated, but, as he looked down at the area where Hogan had taken divots, he thought to himself: "well, as long as I'm here, it can't hurt to at least take a look in the dirt", and got down on his hands and knees and started to closely inspect Hogan's divots. As he moved away a loose piece of turf, he was very surprised to find a thumb-drive which, though a little dirty, seemed in perfect working order. Gripped with a surge of excitement, he popped the thumb-drive into his laptop and found a short, concise video clip, narrated by Hogan (although the script is credited to Herbert Warren Wind), that laid out in detail exactly the information VJ had come for, plus, as some sort of a "bonus" feature, an explanation for why Hogan let the inept Glenn Ford portray him in "Follow the Sun" (honoring Hogan's wishes, VJ does not disclose the reason for Ford's selection; however, he assures us that, if it were disclosed, everyone would agree that the casting choice made "total sense").

 

VJ gets a little muddled as he tries to offer reasons for exactly how Hogan knew he was coming that day, and how Hogan was able to place the thumb-drive "in the dirt" without anyone noticing (apparently he thinks Dickinson's caddy at the time, Herman Mitchell, played a role), but that is just speculation. What we do know is that Hogan PERSONALLY verified VJ's estimates, and you can rest assured that more than adequate "evidentiary support" lies behind his 80/20 assertion.

[xiaoxiong]

How does he prove that Hogan has most of his weight over the left foot at the end-backswing position.

 

Jeff.

 

VJ covers this at length because, while preparing his book, he had a recurring premonition that a mysterious figure in tights, holding a miniature golf club and wearing a funny hat, would pose that very question and that he wouldn't be able to provide sufficient "evidentiary support" to satisfy him. The premonition ate away at him, and forced him to dig deeper and deeper into his research.

 

After thoroughly studying all the Hogan swing video he could find, and consulting some engineering friends for help with the analysis, VJ was still dissatisfied that his research would withstand the scrutiny of the strange-accented, gnome-like creature in his premonition. Eventually he concluded that the only way he could PROVE his theory was to verify it with Hogan himself!

 

VJ went to Wal-Mart and bought two inexpensive bathroom scales, then borrowed his neighbor's time machine, and traveled back to the 1967 Masters, to the very day that Clem Darracott shot the now famous In Pursuit of Perfection footage. VJ reasoned that if he were at the practice range at exactly the same time Hogan waved Darracott "inside the ropes", he could tag along, and perhaps persuade Hogan to take a few swings with each foot on a different scale, so he could verify his weight distribution estimates.

 

The plan worked without a hitch until VJ approached Hogan on the range and, after a brief explanation of who he was and why he was there, asked Hogan if he wouldn't mind helping with VJ's research. Hogan's face turned grim as he shook it "no", then he snarled "I've got just one eye, you know". As if to add emphasis, Hogan ripped his next practice shot twenty yards over his caddy's head, who fell down trying to reach it.

 

Shaken by the harsh rebuff, VJ stood by in silence and watched Hogan finish his practice session. You can see him below in a still from the Darracott film, the younger fellow in the white shirt, standing to the right of Gardner Dickinson and Claude Harmon. The bathroom scales are just out of the frame, at VJ's feet:

 

 

After Hogan finished his practice and was preparing to leave the range, he turned to VJ and fixed him with the famous Hogan "stare". Hogan said simply: "Son, the answers are in the dirt", then turned away, and proceeded to the putting green.

 

Obviously, VJ was deflated, but, as he looked down at the area where Hogan had taken divots, he thought to himself: "well, as long as I'm here, it can't hurt to at least take a look in the dirt", and got down on his hands and knees and started to closely inspect Hogan's divots. As he moved away a loose piece of turf, he was very surprised to find a thumb-drive which, though a little dirty, seemed in perfect working order. Gripped with a surge of excitement, he popped the thumb-drive into his laptop and found a short, concise video clip, narrated by Hogan (although the script is credited to Herbert Warren Wind), that laid out in detail exactly the information VJ had come for, plus, as some sort of a "bonus" feature, an explanation for why Hogan let the inept Glenn Ford portray him in "Follow the Sun" (honoring Hogan's wishes, VJ does not disclose the reason for Ford's selection; however, he assures us that, if it were disclosed, everyone would agree that the casting choice made "total sense").

 

VJ gets a little muddled as he tries to offer reasons for exactly how Hogan knew he was coming that day, and how Hogan was able to place the thumb-drive "in the dirt" without anyone noticing (apparently he thinks Dickinson's caddy at the time, Herman Mitchell, played a role), but that is just speculation. What we do know is that Hogan PERSONALLY verified VJ's estimates, and you can rest assured that more than adequate "evidentiary support" lies behind his 80/20 assertion.

 

 

Nice story, though thee is one hole: the 1st ever commercial laptop was available till early 1980s. Not 1967.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laptop

 

Cheers

[jeffy]

[quote name='xiaoxiong' post='813325' date='Dec 5 2007, 02:38 PM']Nice story, though thee is one hole: the 1st ever commercial laptop was available till early 1980s. Not 1967.
See [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laptop"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laptop[/url]

Cheers[/quote]

Oh; I forgot to mention that, in addition to the bathroom scales, Trolio also brought along his laptop in the time-machine.

[birdie_man]

WTF...

[Points]

Jeffy has a sense of humor?

[hezlett]

[quote name='birdie_man' post='813350' date='Dec 5 2007, 04:00 PM']WTF...[/quote]

Reductio ad absurdum.

[birdie_man]

[quote name='hezlett' post='813496' date='Dec 5 2007, 05:11 PM'][quote name='birdie_man' post='813350' date='Dec 5 2007, 04:00 PM']WTF...[/quote]

Reductio ad absurdum.
[/quote]

Ack I only speak English sir.

(and Paul-Talk....which is my own creation)

"Reduce your absurdities"...............

????????

Perhaps.

[quote name='Points']Jeffy has a sense of humour?[/quote]

Whatever it is that he has is very sarcastic.

[xiaoxiong]

[quote name='birdie_man' post='813578' date='Dec 5 2007, 06:32 PM'][quote name='hezlett' post='813496' date='Dec 5 2007, 05:11 PM'][quote name='birdie_man' post='813350' date='Dec 5 2007, 04:00 PM']WTF...[/quote]

Reductio ad absurdum.
[/quote]

Ack I only speak English sir.

(and Paul-Talk....which is my own creation)

"Reduce your absurdities"...............

????????

Perhaps.

[quote name='Points']Jeffy has a sense of humour?[/quote]

Whatever it is that he has is very sarcastic.
[/quote]

And too much free time ??

[kryptodobe]

Can you please enlighten me and tell me who those folks are that discovered Hogan's Secret? Rather ironic VJ got permission from the Hogan Foundation to publish his findings after so many already knew what Hogan changed in his swing post accident. VJ proves his findings with physics. If you read his book, look at Hogan's post accident swing and don't agree with him you are in denial. In time VJ will be a top 10 instructor.

[slicefixer]

[quote name='kryptodobe' post='814006' date='Dec 6 2007, 01:38 AM']Can you please enlighten me and tell me who those folks are that discovered Hogan's Secret? Rather ironic VJ got permission from the Hogan Foundation to publish his findings after so many already knew what Hogan changed in his swing post accident. VJ proves his findings with physics. If you read his book, look at Hogan's post accident swing and don't agree with him you are in denial. In time VJ will be a top 10 instructor.[/quote]


ENTIRELY YOUR OPINION.......and your CERTAINLY entitled to it.......but some of us have been researching/studying Mr. Hogan's golf swing for MANY years and we MIGHT not agree with Mr. Trolio......I KNOW I don't......100% disagree.....the reason, I KNOW you CAN re-create the same basic DOWNSWING Mr. Hogan exhbited WITHOUT Mr. Trolio's "secret"........and that's MY opinion......I also KNOW that Mr. Hogan's SUPPOSED "secret" that Mr. Trolio "discovered," VARIED wildly in the amount during different periods of his career.....so, IF the "move" Mr. Trolio CLAIMS is Mr. Hogan's "secret" was his "secret" WHY would the amount vary over the many years of his career.....(and don't give me the WEAK excuse that he "hid" it from others)......as for the "top 10".....IF Mr. Trolio "works the right angles," does enough politickin', and somebody ON the list DIES, then he might well do it......

With all of that being said, I'm SURE Mr. Trolio is a fine instructor and passionate teacher of our game and that's why your supporting him so strongly........well, good for both of you.......and I mean it too........IMOP there aren't that many truly good un's out there so when you find one you should cherish and appreciate the association........you chase enough teachers around the planet and you'll conclude and KNOW what I mean.........

One OTHER thing, Krypto, as YOU know, Mr. Hogan is DEAD......he didn't tell anyone, at least that's repeated it as of this moment, his secret..........so, with that being said, Mr. Trolio can SUGGEST his opinion, and, as I said, he's entitled to it, and I/we can disagree and state our case in as eloquent and detailed a manner as we possibly can, then the READER can decide........that's about it IMOP.......

[cohen]

There are many questions here to answer:

Beginning basically when the shaft is parrallel to the ground in the backswing, Hogan's head begins to lower or go down. It goes down before reaching the top of the swing. Most modern players (there are exceptions) have their heads lowering at start down or in the down swing.

The center of mass being located on the left leg axis and the ability to rotate. Hogan's swing was very quick....very rotational golf swing. 3D motion is showing everyday that you can rotate quicker when the center of mass is sitting over the forward leg.

Why does Hogan step forward when his hands get about waist high during the backswing in the Shell's Match against Snead? Is it for the feeling of the weight shift?

[hayam]

Correct me if I am wrong.

But if he truly understand the secret. Demonstrate it. Enough said.

[jeffy]

[quote name='hayam' post='814215' date='Dec 6 2007, 09:27 AM']Correct me if I am wrong.

But if he truly understand the secret. Demonstrate it. Enough said.[/quote]

He tries to, and has pictures of him doing it the book, from both front and back. He also posted the video clip on YouTube.

BTW, a friend of mine that learned Hogan's PRE-ACCIDENT swing from Bolt says that he thinks Trolio's action looks "girlish", and agrees with slice's view that Hogan's swing had a lot more left side pull than what VJ demonstrates. Time to get back in the time-machine!

[JeffMann]

One thing that puzzles me about this discussion re: Hogan's secret is why anyone believes that there is any secret to Hogan's swing. I don't think that Hogan had any secret move - I think that he just had good fundamentals. The same applies to Tiger Woods. There is no hidden secret to his swing - there are only a multiplicity of good fundamentals. I suspect that the idea of a hidden secret started with that Life article in the 1950's which has led a number of people in subsequent decades to also search for some hidden secret. I don't believe that there is any hidden secret to Hogan's swing. His swing fundamentals should become apparent to anyone studying his swing in depth.

Jeff.

[JeffMann]

Cohen - you wrote-: "3D motion is showing everyday that you can rotate quicker when the center of mass is sitting over the forward leg."

I presume that you are arguing that the COG must be situated over the forward leg at the end-backswing position. Where is the evidence supporting that statement?

I believe that the optimum biomechanical method is to place the COG over the forward leg at the [b]start of the downswing [/b]by performing a hip bump maneuver, and that this will result in the COG being over the forward leg at the[b] appropriate [/b]moment. I demonstrated this move in my recent swing video lesson and demonstrated how the[b] initiating[/b] lateral hip shift actually helps one to torque the left thigh counterclockwise. That would not easily be possible if one's weight were already over the forward leg [b]prior[/b] to initiating the downswing.

Jeff.