The Search for the Perfect Swing

[slicefixer]

[quote name='lake' post='818611' date='Dec 10 2007, 03:08 AM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='818600' date='Dec 10 2007, 12:35 AM']........and it doesn't require the "alignment of the sun, moon, and stars" in the backswing either........ [/quote]

I agree.... but your MOON better better be good at gettin' back in alignment every time, the same way, and under pressure. Too much drama on the trip out and the chance you're riding back in the same car going home ain't likely Like Mr. Hardy says "TOUR players are like cats: drop them upside down and they land on their feet...the rest of us are like Dogs: you better drop us with our feet down or we are in trouble."
[/quote]


"touche"........hehehe......(btw, I DO have my own "preferred backswing style".....hehehe)

[wkuo3]

I know I'll get in trouble with what I'm going to say, but I've never been known from backing away from what i believe and I had paid the price for my bluntness throughout my life.
But that's why I love golf, because you definitely could not talk your way out of or into a situation.
I totally disagree on the "better align the #@$ to XYZ" to drop on our feet stuff. There are just too many facts on the tour in the past and present to contradict this believe in perfection ( BTW, perfection according to whom).
Don't think the tour player were born like cat, it's hard work, and don't believe if one gets the mechanics "perfected" would result in better ball striking, and if you have to screw up the 6 inches between your ears to practice the "perfected " mechanics, you'll never score well.
Get the basic right and you'll have to find your own way through practice with fine tuning once in awhile.

[Lake]

[quote name='wkuo3' post='818617' date='Dec 10 2007, 01:33 AM']Get the basic right and you'll have to find your own way through practice with fine tuning once in awhile.[/quote]

wkuo3,

I think you're right on topic with what you're talking about. This thread does say The Search for the Perfect Swing and you stated your thoughts and issues without fear of being ridiculed. I like what you have to say and if I get a kid that's all about plane lines, backswing angles, etc-etc I would play your card every single time. The thing is most golfers don't want to know or even careless about seeing their swing on video. They want the teacher to identify the root of their problem and help them fix it in the simplest way possible & that's OK. Most of the time, people on these forums are a little different than your average golfer. There are IMOP, instructors, fanatics, true students of the game, techies, serious players, golfers that enjoying reading the drama, swing experts, industry people, and divorce attorneys I just basically described myself and I might need the latter if I keep hanging out on this darn cpu!!! I don't demand perfection out of anybody but myself. I seek to find, understand, and demonstrate the perfect swing for myself and to AID in the learning process of the people I'm lucky to get the chance to work with in their search for improvement. I use this forum and others as a tool in that regard. People like Slice, HoganFan, Points, Dana Dahlquist, Jeffy, Tiltmaestro, Bantamben, JeffMann, Jim0068, Machinegolfer, Ryan Smither and many many others make this site very special for me and my journey.

Anyways...good night...its 2:48 cst and I have daddy duty in about 4hrs:)

Lake

[JeffMann]

Lake - it is nice to see someone quote from my website. I didn't think that many people on this forum read my stuff.

I have changed my thinking on this issue in recent months. I was previously very adamantly in favor of the approach of concentrating on a hip shift-rotation move at the [b]start[/b] of the downswing, and letting that move pull the right elbow down to the right hip area and the right shoulder down to the ball in a side-bending manner. Two things have changed my opinion.

First of all, I saw this video by Chuck Cook.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yfOxXFiqzI"]Chuck Cook video[/url]

Chuck Cook stated that one should simply think of moving the right shoulder down to the ball and the simple thought of doing that move then moves the hips first. In other words, the sequence still occurs from the ground-up (hips move first) but the mind is on the right shoulder. As one thinks of moving the right shoulder down-forwards in the direction of the ball, the thought-action translates into a fast hip transition move. I demonstrate this optional approach in my recent swing video lesson where I demonstrate a stone skipping action.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNvCMDGmGN"]Stone skipping action[/url]

In demonstrating the stone skipping action (at 2:04 minutes into that segment), I argue that the three movements that constitute the [b]start[/b] of the stone skipping action (hip shift-rotation, right shoulder down, right elbow into side) should occur [b]synchronously[/b] in time. In stating that, I am merely stating that they need to be time-coordinated. I then state that a golfer can try and learn this time-coordinated 3-part action by either starting with the idea of moving the hips (as Hogan described) or starting with the idea of moving the upper body (as Chuck Cook describes). I don't think that it really matters as long as the action occurs in the same way - as I demonstrate in that video. I personally prefer to start with the idea of moving all 3-parts simultaneously, which results in the most coordinated swing-start for me. If I concentrate on starting with the hips (as I used to do), I tend to have over-active hips and I slide excessively to the left. I have a much better hip transition move if I think of a coordinated 3-part move.

The second factor that changed my approach is the concept of tracing a straight plane line with the right index finger (+/- right forearm). I now believe that it is better to think of tracing a SPL at the start of the downswing as a [b]mental guiding thought[/b]. That doesn't mean that the right hand moves first. The swing still starts from the ground-up, but one's "mind" is in one's right hand. The [b]intention[/b] to move the right hand along an appropriate SPL-tracing hand arc results in a more synchronous 3-part transition move for me. I still actually start with a very active hip transition move, but I find that I move more synchronously when I think in that manner.

SF - My tendency to bend my left arm doesn't affect my approach to the transition move. In my "real" swing, my left arm is far less bent than that photo demonstrates. The reason is two fold. When using a regular golf club, the greater weight of the club helps straighten my left arm. Secondly, I use much more extensor action (TGM term) in my real swing.

Jeff.

[slicefixer]

[quote name='JeffMann' post='818809' date='Dec 10 2007, 11:10 AM']Lake - it is nice to see someone quote from my website. I didn't think that many people on this forum read my stuff.

I have changed my thinking on this issue in recent months. I was previously very adamantly in favor of the approach of concentrating on a hip shift-rotation move at the [b]start[/b] of the downswing, and letting that move pull the right elbow down to the right hip area and the right shoulder down to the ball in a side-bending manner. Two things have changed my opinion.

First of all, I saw this video by Chuck Cook.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yfOxXFiqzI"]Chuck Cook video[/url]

Chuck Cook stated that one should simply think of moving the right shoulder down to the ball and the simple thought of doing that move then moves the hips first. In other words, the sequence still occurs from the ground-up (hips move first) but the mind is on the right shoulder. As one thinks of moving the right shoulder down-forwards in the direction of the ball, the thought-action translates into a fast hip transition move. I demonstrate this optional approach in my recent swing video lesson where I demonstrate a stone skipping action.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNvCMDGmGN"]Stone skipping action[/url]

In demonstrating the stone skipping action (at 2:04 minutes into that segment), I argue that the three movements that constitute the [b]start[/b] of the stone skipping action (hip shift-rotation, right shoulder down, right elbow into side) should occur [b]synchronously[/b] in time. In stating that, I am merely stating that they need to be time-coordinated. I then state that a golfer can try and learn this time-coordinated 3-part action by either starting with the idea of moving the hips (as Hogan described) or starting with the idea of moving the upper body (as Chuck Cook describes). I don't think that it really matters as long as the action occurs in the same way - as I demonstrate in that video. I personally prefer to start with the idea of moving all 3-parts simultaneously, which results in the most coordinated swing-start for me. If I concentrate on starting with the hips (as I used to do), I tend to have over-active hips and I slide excessively to the left. I have a much better hip transition move if I think of a coordinated 3-part move.

The second factor that changed my approach is the concept of tracing a straight plane line with the right index finger (+/- right forearm). I now believe that it is better to think of tracing a SPL at the start of the downswing as a [b]mental guiding thought[/b]. That doesn't mean that the right hand moves first. The swing still starts from the ground-up, but one's "mind" is in one's right hand. The [b]intention[/b] to move the right hand along an appropriate SPL-tracing hand arc results in a more synchronous 3-part transition move for me. I still actually start with a very active hip transition move, but I find that I move more synchronously when I think in that manner.

SF - My tendency to bend my left arm doesn't affect my approach to the transition move. In my "real" swing, my left arm is far less bent than that photo demonstrates. The reason is two fold. When using a regular golf club, the greater weight of the club helps straighten my left arm. Secondly, I use much more extensor action (TGM term) in my real swing.

Jeff.[/quote]


Fair enough Doc........your swing, your opinion, you "business".........I do very much respect the effort and passion you demonstrate in YOUR "pursuit"........

[wkuo3]

[quote name='lake' post='818649' date='Dec 10 2007, 03:49 AM'][quote name='wkuo3' post='818617' date='Dec 10 2007, 01:33 AM']Get the basic right and you'll have to find your own way through practice with fine tuning once in awhile.[/quote]

wkuo3,

I think you're right on topic with what you're talking about. This thread does say The Search for the Perfect Swing and you stated your thoughts and issues without fear of being ridiculed. I like what you have to say and if I get a kid that's all about plane lines, backswing angles, etc-etc I would play your card every single time. The thing is most golfers don't want to know or even careless about seeing their swing on video. They want the teacher to identify the root of their problem and help them fix it in the simplest way possible & that's OK. Most of the time, people on these forums are a little different than your average golfer. There are IMOP, instructors, fanatics, true students of the game, techies, serious players, golfers that enjoying reading the drama, swing experts, industry people, and divorce attorneys I just basically described myself and I might need the latter if I keep hanging out on this darn cpu!!! I don't demand perfection out of anybody but myself. I seek to find, understand, and demonstrate the perfect swing for myself and to AID in the learning process of the people I'm lucky to get the chance to work with in their search for improvement. I use this forum and others as a tool in that regard. People like Slice, HoganFan, Points, Dana Dahlquist, Jeffy, Tiltmaestro, Bantamben, JeffMann, Jim0068, Machinegolfer, Ryan Smither and many many others make this site very special for me and my journey.

Anyways...good night...its 2:48 cst and I have daddy duty in about 4hrs:)

Lake
[/quote]

I too, have great respect for Slice and others whom contributed their knowledge and time for this forum and in fact; I had gain some knowledge of how to put what I think I know- into words.
I really enjoy this forum because of these great guys.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='JeffMann' post='818809' date='Dec 10 2007, 10:10 AM']Lake - it is nice to see someone quote from my website. I didn't think that many people on this forum read my stuff.

I have changed my thinking on this issue in recent months. I was previously very adamantly in favor of the approach of concentrating on a hip shift-rotation move at the [b]start[/b] of the downswing, and letting that move pull the right elbow down to the right hip area and the right shoulder down to the ball in a side-bending manner. Two things have changed my opinion.

First of all, I saw this video by Chuck Cook.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yfOxXFiqzI"]Chuck Cook video[/url]

Chuck Cook stated that one should simply think of moving the right shoulder down to the ball and the simple thought of doing that move then moves the hips first. In other words, the sequence still occurs from the ground-up (hips move first) but the mind is on the right shoulder. As one thinks of moving the right shoulder down-forwards in the direction of the ball, the thought-action translates into a fast hip transition move. I demonstrate this optional approach in my recent swing video lesson where I demonstrate a stone skipping action.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNvCMDGmGN"]Stone skipping action[/url]

In demonstrating the stone skipping action (at 2:04 minutes into that segment), I argue that the three movements that constitute the [b]start[/b] of the stone skipping action (hip shift-rotation, right shoulder down, right elbow into side) should occur [b]synchronously[/b] in time. In stating that, I am merely stating that they need to be time-coordinated. I then state that a golfer can try and learn this time-coordinated 3-part action by either starting with the idea of moving the hips (as Hogan described) or starting with the idea of moving the upper body (as Chuck Cook describes). I don't think that it really matters as long as the action occurs in the same way - as I demonstrate in that video. I personally prefer to start with the idea of moving all 3-parts simultaneously, which results in the most coordinated swing-start for me. If I concentrate on starting with the hips (as I used to do), I tend to have over-active hips and I slide excessively to the left. I have a much better hip transition move if I think of a coordinated 3-part move.

The second factor that changed my approach is the concept of tracing a straight plane line with the right index finger (+/- right forearm). I now believe that it is better to think of tracing a SPL at the start of the downswing as a [b]mental guiding thought[/b]. That doesn't mean that the right hand moves first. The swing still starts from the ground-up, but one's "mind" is in one's right hand. The [b]intention[/b] to move the right hand along an appropriate SPL-tracing hand arc results in a more synchronous 3-part transition move for me. I still actually start with a very active hip transition move, but I find that I move more synchronously when I think in that manner.

SF - My tendency to bend my left arm doesn't affect my approach to the transition move. In my "real" swing, my left arm is far less bent than that photo demonstrates. The reason is two fold. When using a regular golf club, the greater weight of the club helps straighten my left arm. Secondly, I use much more extensor action (TGM term) in my real swing.

Jeff.[/quote]

Jeff,

You need to pick up the Jan. 08 Golf Digest. McLean has redone his X-factor work and finally got it right! Remember my posts about "dynamic X-factor?" McLean apparently has been thinking along the same lines for a while and did some research. Guess what, the X-factor [b]increases [/b]in the early downswing by over 17 degrees in tour pros but only 5 degrees in a typical 20 hdcp. amateur. I think his research definitively answers the question about the "hip turn leading the parade" that you challenged me on a couple of weeks ago. Shoulder turn and pelvic/hip turn are not synchronous in the downswings of good golfers, not even close. Time for a rethink, Doc.

[jeffy]

I have changed my thinking on this issue in recent months. I was previously very adamantly in favor of the approach of concentrating on a hip shift-rotation move at the start of the downswing, and letting that move pull the right elbow down to the right hip area and the right shoulder down to the ball in a side-bending manner. Two things have changed my opinion.

 

First of all, I saw this video by Chuck Cook.

 

Chuck Cook video

 

Chuck Cook stated that one should simply think of moving the right shoulder down to the ball and the simple thought of doing that move then moves the hips first. In other words, the sequence still occurs from the ground-up (hips move first) but the mind is on the right shoulder. As one thinks of moving the right shoulder down-forwards in the direction of the ball, the thought-action translates into a fast hip transition move. I demonstrate this optional approach in my recent swing video lesson where I demonstrate a stone skipping action.

 

Chuck Cook is teaching something quite different from the swing slice teaches (as well as Hardy's one-plane swing, MORAD, S&T, etc.). Cook is clearly of the two-plane or "old school" philosophy: flat shoulders; big shift of the upper body away from the target in the backswing, which shifts the COG well to the right; upper body directed downswing, which results in a slower weight transfer: all of these are widening or shallowing elements, appropriate for the steep arm swing of a two-planer. However, they would tend to make a flat arm swinging one-planer too shallow.

 

In my experience watching reasonably good two-planers, they often get into trouble when they start the downswing with a conscious, aggressive lower body movement: pulls and pull hooks because it throws the arms "over the top". I call it the "Hogan curse" because, when a two-planer starts playing pretty well then decides he wants to take it to "the next level", he'll often try to add some rapid body rotation "like Hogan". When it doesn't work, the frustration is enormous because "that's how Hogan did it", but, instead of playing better, his scores go up.

 

BTW, Dana has some interesting lesson footage where his students are hitting balls while holding a NERF ball between their forearms, which, of course, keeps the arms in front of the chest, something you should try.

 

 

[JeffMann]

Hoganfan924

Rethinking things is my speciality. I will therefore take your advice, and look at McLean's latest article on the dynamic X-factor. After rethinking the issue, I will post a comment.

Jeff.

[Swingtheclub]

Ken - you wrote-: "Baseball players throw the ball side arm for quick short throws for power they throw the ball overhand."

 

I have a different perception of the situation. I think that a baseball player throws side-arm with the right arm alone for quick short throws, and that they use a side-throw action with much more body movement if they want to throw side-throw with much more throw-power. The extra throw-power comes from incorporating a lot of body pivot-rotation action into the side-throw action (like a baseball pitcher). I think that they use an overhand action for throwing long distances, because they need a throw action that creates a high and long ball flight. An overhand throw action is much better for starting the ball flight at a higher launch angle.

 

SF - The action of bringing the right elbow to the right hip area is not necessarily reactive to a good transition move. It is part of a good transition move. I believe that a good transition move at the start of the downswing involves three movements occurring simultaneously - hip shift-rotation move, right shoulder moving downplane and right elbow being pulled rapidly down to the right hip area. Here is Hogan demonstrating the three-part action.

 

 

The result of this three-part transition move is a shallowing of the clubshaft.

 

Jeff.

 

Jeff if you had ever played baseball you would no that you can throw the ball harder and faster over handed than you can side arm with less effort (body rotation)

 

Now I am not a big fan of Hogans golf swing not that I think he has a bad swing I just think with that much roation going on he has to work harder to get the same results.

 

Basicly the difference between overhand and sidearm.

[jeffy]

Jeff,

 

You need to pick up the Jan. 08 Golf Digest. McLean has redone his X-factor work and finally got it right! Remember my posts about "dynamic X-factor?" McLean apparently has been thinking along the same lines for a while and did some research. Guess what, the X-factor increases in the early downswing by over 17 degrees in tour pros but only 5 degrees in a typical 20 hdcp. amateur. I think his research definitively answers the question about the "hip turn leading the parade" that you challenged me on a couple of weeks ago. Shoulder turn and pelvic/hip turn are not synchronous in the downswings of good golfers, not even close. Time for a rethink, Doc.

 

Saw the same article and noted also how much "hip rise" is evident in the downswing of the tour pros: 4.5 inches on average versus half an inch for amateurs (apparently Cabrera's is almost 6 inches). This strikes me as EXACTLY the same as what Bennett and Plummer are talking about with what is variously called the "hip thrust", "jumping up" or "pelvic release":

 

 

From the beginning, I've felt that this phenomena is present in the swings of most good golfers, not just stack & tilters.

[JeffMann]

Ken - I wonder whether your definition of an overhand baseball throw action would still fit in with my definition of a side-throw action. In other words, I think that [b]many[/b] baseball pitchers, who throw the ball very hard and fast, are actually performing what I call a side-throw action. However, I agree that [b]many[/b] baseball pitchers have a more overhand throw action. Do you have a cut-off point that defines when a side-throw action becomes an overhand-throw action?

Jeff.

[jeffy]

Ken - I wonder whether your definition of an overhand baseball throw action would still fit in with my definition of a side-throw action. In other words, I think that many baseball pitchers, who throw the ball very hard and fast, are actually performing what I call a side-throw action. However, I agree that many baseball pitchers have a more overhand throw action. Do you have a cut-off point that defines when a side-throw action becomes an overhand-throw action?

 

Jeff.

 

Time for another rethink. This article from The New York Times shows how the arm angle is the same for basically ALL styles of pitchers; what changes is the degree the torso is tilted over. In other words, a submariner has the same overhand arm motion as a conventional pitcher, he is just bent way over. See the illustrations in the third row of pictures:

 

[hoganfan924]

Ken,

Remember KC fireball reliever Dan Quisenberry? Threw in the 90's (mph) with a sidearm motion that was so low, his arm was below horizontal! There have been a few others since him as well.

Apologies to Dylgrisse, we've badly jacked his thread!

Back to the original question. Upon rereading my posts, I think I did a piss poor job of communicating what I meant. So here it is in simple terms:

Many good players (not all, but most) have the clubshaft flattening in the early downswing (shaft points outside the ball when the left arm is parallel to the ground). If the clubshaft is flattening, it is pronating the left forearm. The clubshaft flattens as a reaction to what the body is doing (hip clearing, increasing axis tilt, moving the lower spine forward, unwinding the shoulders) and that's what causes the small "plane shift" to occur that Hogan describes briefly in 5 Lessons. So the hands do nothing active to create the pronation, they just react. The straightening of the right arm is then responsible for much of the supination of the left arm in the downswing, but the right arm doesn't straighten early in good players, the way that it does with lesser players. Good players "hold their angles" longer and therefore do not have the clubhead attacking from outside the ball. As Hogan said in 5 lessons, "the arms get a free ride in the early downswing" (at least for that style of golf swing).

[JeffMann]

Hognafan924

I agree that the clubshaft flattens in the early downswing due to forces other than those exerted by the hands, and that the pronating right hand/supinating left hand movements are reactive.

However, you state that the butt end of the club should point outside the ball when the left arm is parallel to the ground. How much outside the ball. I personally think that it should very close to the ball-target line. If you think that it should point well outside the ball, can you mention some mainline PGA tour golfers who have this feature, and preferably post photos.

Yous state that the "right arm should straighten and thereby supinate the left arm". I have no idea what you are talking about. Could you please expand on this point. Are you referring to the right upper arm or right forearm, or both? At what point in the swing is this happening? When does the left arm supinate? Are you referring to the left hand or left upper linb in general? From my perspective, the word "supination" applies to movements of the hands generated by movements of the forearm (primarily) and the upper arm (to a very small degree).

Jeff.

[JeffMann]

Ken - if you decide to answer my question, look at the photos that Jeffy posted.

I would personally label Joe Smith as having a side-throw action and Mike Mussina as having an overhand throw action. Do you agree/disagree? What defines the difference and what's the threshold cut-off point that defines an overhand throw action (relative to a side-throw action)?

Jeff.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='JeffMann' post='819001' date='Dec 10 2007, 12:59 PM']Hognafan924

I agree that the clubshaft flattens in the early downswing due to forces other than those exerted by the hands, and that the pronating right hand/supinating left hand movements are reactive.

However, you state that the butt end of the club should point outside the ball when the left arm is parallel to the ground. How much outside the ball. I personally think that it should very close to the ball-target line. If you think that it should point well outside the ball, can you mention some mainline PGA tour golfers who have this feature, and preferably post photos.

Yous state that the "right arm should straighten and thereby supinate the left arm". I have no idea what you are talking about. Could you please expand on this point. Are you referring to the right upper arm or right forearm, or both? At what point in the swing is this happening? When does the left arm supinate? Are you referring to the left hand or left upper linb in general? From my perspective, the word "supination" applies to movements of the hands generated by movements of the forearm (primarily) and the upper arm (to a very small degree).

Jeff.[/quote]

Jeff,

Didn't say that it [b]should[/b], just that it [b]does[/b] in many good players. Not making a judgement, just an observation. GD even had an article about this a couple of years ago and showed several top players that all exhibit this (Singh, Toms, Ochoa come to mind, can't remember the rest). Get a bunch of DTL shots of good players and I think you'll find that the majority do this. How much varies quite a bit, from a few inches to a couple of feet.

I've posted this before but lets try again. Take you normal stance and grip. Without moving your shoulders or hips, and while maintaining a striaght left arm, and keeping your right elbow at your side, slowly start to bend the right elbow. Take the right elbow to a 90 deg. bend. Now observe what that did to your clubface and left hand, it pronated it. Do the reverse and it will supinate it. So the supination of the left hand/forearm is largely caused by the straightening of the right arm in the downswing. This is exactly why "one planers" that still have considerable right arm bend at impact have their shoulders more open to the target line than 2 planers. In the 1 planer, the combination of shoulders open and opening with right arm partially straightening, squares the clubface. Two planers have the right arm much straighter at impact and therefore the clubface is more closed given the same degree of shoulder openness (why 2 planers need to be more "square" to the target line with the shoulders at impact), assuming no hand manipulation to create forearm rotation in the downswing, which of course many players do.

[Bonecracker]

One Plane, two planes, three planes, cause planes to crash. One thing I have discovered over the years is that there is no perfect swing!! Did U hear me, there is no perfect golf swing! You must go out and find what works for you. You are not going to swing like Tiger Woods or you next door neighbor who is a low handicap. I think Hogan said it best, " Go and dig it out of the dirt"! Once you have a repeatable swing, eliminate one side of the fairway. In other words, faid or draw the ball all the time! Then spend all the money you would have on the full swing instruction on were it matters. Chipping and putting lessons!! Then you can go low, trust me I know!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jeffy]

Ken - if you decide to answer my question, look at the photos that Jeffy posted.

 

I would personally label Joe Smith as having a side-throw action and Mike Mussina as having an overhand throw action. Do you agree/disagree? What defines the difference and what's the threshold cut-off point that defines an overhand throw action (relative to a side-throw action)?

 

Jeff.

 

More rethinking on your part, I guess. You have just redefined "side-throw" from how it is defined on your site. On your site, you define "side-throw" using Hogan's definition of the proper arm action from Five Lessons (page 97): "half sidearm, half underhand", and post an illustration of Hogan demonstrating it. Below is the accompanying illustration from your site:

 

 

As can be plainly seen, compared to Joe Smith and all other major league pitchers, Hogan's right elbow is well below his right shoulder, and closer to the side, throughout the throw. In addition, his right hand never gets above a line drawn through his shoulders. In contrast, Joe Smith's right elbow stays at the same level as his right shoulder, well away from his side, because the upper arm maintains a right angle to his chest. His right hand makes an "overhand motion" relative to the shoulder line, staying well above the shoulder line until after the ball is released.

 

 

 

As the NYT's article makes clear, relative to the body, the arm motions are the same for a submariner, a side-arm thrower and a conventional overhand pitcher. Why? Because that generates the most throwing speed. None use a "side-throw" as you defined it, or as Hogan illustrates it. I hope that clears things up for you.

[wkuo3]

[quote name='Bonecracker' post='819077' date='Dec 10 2007, 02:17 PM']One Plane, two planes, three planes, cause planes to crash. One thing I have discovered over the years is that there is no perfect swing!! Did U hear me, there is no perfect golf swing! You must go out and find what works for you. You are not going to swing like Tiger Woods or you next door neighbor who is a low handicap. I think Hogan said it best, " Go and dig it out of the dirt"! Once you have a repeatable swing, eliminate one side of the fairway. In other words, faid or draw the ball all the time! Then spend all the money you would have on the full swing instruction on were it matters. Chipping and putting lessons!! Then you can go low, trust me I know!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/quote]

Absulutely!
A lot of things worked very well on paper ( or on computer programs ), but it may or may not work in real life, most definitely not one for everyone.
There is no best method for everyone, just what works for you.
As I'm getting older to enter senior age for golf, I'll use whatever method that does not hurt my body and works the best for me.
I'm not going to chase another 10 yards off the driver and risk of damaging my back or shoulder; I'm no longer bullet prove.
Like I was told when I was a youngster, we're not machines, so don't try to swing like one and forget what's even more powerful, your will to success.
Mental toughness is what set TW from the crowd.

[JeffMann]

Hoganfan924

 

Thanks for your explanation. I now know what you mean.

 

Regarding where the clubshaft points when the left arm is roughly parallel to the ground in the downswing - I find that most PGA tour golfers' clubshaft points at the ball-target line (or very close to that line). I virtually never see the clubshaft pointing more than a few inches off that line.

 

Here is a photo of Toms/Singh/Ochoa.

 

 

Jeff.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='JeffMann' post='819335' date='Dec 10 2007, 05:46 PM']Hoganfan924

Thanks for your explanation. I now know what you mean.

Regarding where the clubshaft points when the left arm is roughly parallel to the ground in the downswing - I find that most PGA tour golfers' clubshaft points at the ball-target line (or very close to that line). I virtually never see the clubshaft pointing more than a few inches off that line.

Jeff.[/quote]

Trace the shaft line down to the ground and they are all above the ball (Ochoa the most). Remember, at impact the shaft of course is inside the ball.

Here's one of my old posts where I describe dynamic X-factor. Guess I wasn't so FOS after all!:

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=115281&st=30&p=733633&#entry733633"]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?sh...mp;#entry733633[/url]

Maybe McLean should hire me as a consultant to advise him on what to research next. lol

[Swingtheclub]

Ken - if you decide to answer my question, look at the photos that Jeffy posted.

I would personally label Joe Smith as having a side-throw action and Mike Mussina as having an overhand throw action. Do you agree/disagree? What defines the difference and what's the threshold cut-off point that defines an overhand throw action (relative to a side-throw action)?

First I am not sure I can say where a side arm ends and the overhand throw begins anything short of completely over hand is some form of side arm.

I also never said you could not generate power side arm I just said you had to use a lot of body rotation to do it. I also never mentioned pitchers

How many outfielders in the bigs today throw side arm.

My point of contention is you can generate more power from and over hand throw with less body movement than you can side arm Without the body rotation you would not have much power.

Its just like I contend that it is easier to swing a golf club by using your arms and hands an letting the body follow than it is to let the arms and hands follow the body .

In the end I think a bit of both happens but its all a matter of what the mind is thinking.

[jeffy]

SIDE-ARM:

 

 

SIDE-THROW:

 

 

UNDERHAND:

 

 

Not even close.

[Points]

[/quote]

Jeff,

You need to pick up the Jan. 08 Golf Digest. McLean has redone his X-factor work and finally got it right! Remember my posts about "dynamic X-factor?" McLean apparently has been thinking along the same lines for a while and did some research. Guess what, the X-factor [b]increases [/b]in the early downswing by over 17 degrees in tour pros but only 5 degrees in a typical 20 hdcp. amateur. I think his research definitively answers the question about the "hip turn leading the parade" that you challenged me on a couple of weeks ago. Shoulder turn and pelvic/hip turn are not synchronous in the downswings of good golfers, not even close. Time for a rethink, Doc.
[/quote]

Actually, he got it right the first time around. All of the ideas presented in this Golf Digest were a part of the orginial X factor (GM article, book, and videos). When the original book was written, the technology was not that accurate to measure the stretch during transistion. He referred to it as two way motion. The time when the hips move toward the target and the shoulders continue to turn back. It was never wrong the first time as your post suggests. It was often misinterpreted by people that did not fully read the book or the article.

[JeffMann]

Ken - Thanks for your reply. I can readily understand your point of view.

Jeff.

[positionstk]

most of the teachers in this sport have made the golf swing more complex than they need to because it is a business.They either want the student for a few months and about $1000.00 or they don't know actually what is supposed to happen. The only thing that is important is that the club face ruturns to square at impact with the most speed possible. The easiest way to do this is to keep it square as long as you can throughout the swing.Do your arms move up and down or back and forth?