The Search for the Perfect Swing

[dlygrisse]

Left arm pronation on the downswing

So it is snowing where I am at and I picked up a copy of The Search for the Perfect Swing which I had laying around, and I had never really read. IMO it is a good book with a lot of good scientific analysis of the swing, ball flight ballistics etc. A little outdated with the equipment etc. but a very informative book.

One thing that jumped out at me that I had never really heard before was how to start the downswing. Quote: "A further roll to the right (or pronation) of the left wrist during the early part of the downswing; this is needed in order to allow the clubhead to follow its direct plane towards the target throughout the earlier stages of the downswing." Of course this is followed up with the wrists releasing back to square , but I had always had a visual image of the left arm supinating on the downswing, which I think now may have ben causing me to cast from the top and lose my lag.

I tried this in slow mo and the feeling is that the club (power package) really drops into the slot. Very similar to the Hogan drill from 5 lessons and SWWOG. This swing thought to me really seems to make sense, a little light bulb went on above my head. LOL

Can't wait for the snow to melt and the weather to warm up....want to get to the range.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this matter?

[hoganfan924]

Great book, IMO one of the best ever written. Certainly still applicable today. I don't specifically remember that recommendation from the book, but I think if you have sufficient pronation of the left arm in the late backswing, that adding more in the early downswing would be unnecessary. That said, if you study a lot of great players in the downswing, many of them have their clubshaft "flattening" in the early downswing and when the left arm is parallel to the ground, pointing outside the ball. The physics of it tell me that there are only two ways that can happen:

1. the hand trajectory path is more out than down in the first 1/4 of the downswing (a loop shift in TGM terms), which is not an unusual move in good players. In fact, if you trace the hand trajectory path, several great players hands trace a path in the downswing that is above the path they took on the backswing.
2. they added pronation in the early downswing

So I think it has merit.

[dlygrisse]

Hoganfan, the whole idea is to get the hands on plane going down. They state in the book that if you dont do this you will swing OTT. I totally understand what they are saying...and I have heard things similar many times before, it is just that they way they worded it really hit home with me. IMO it is very similar to Hogan showing the pane of glass shifting on the downswing, slightly forward and more horizontal.

[hoganfan924]

One of my favorite parts of the book is where it explains how, with insufficient forearm rotation in the backwing, the arms will create an across the line and steep clubshaft condition at the top. Pg. 45, movement 5. Really "lit the lightbulb" for me when I first read it. A priceless revelation for me at the time.

[dlygrisse]

I understand what you are saying, however if you read page 55, it explains it really well in the caption for picture 8:3, it says that after you rotate the left forearm on the backswing you need to continue to do so on the downswing, until the angle releases and the motion reverses itself.

I guess what you are saying is that if you rotate it more on the backswing there should be no need to do this. While I think I agree in theory, it seems to me that this thought(pronation on the downswing) would help you resist the urge to cast the club and lose the lag.

[hoganfan924]

I understand, I just don't feel any need to consciously continue to pronate in the downswing. I come down the pane of glass pretty well IMO without having to feel this extra move. I just feel like I'm sliding the back of my left hand "down the pane of glass," more or less "holding the forearm rotation" in the initial downswing move without adding more. My interpretation of what the authors are really stating is that as the right arm straightens, and the left arm swings down, the left forearm naturally supinates, and that supination needs to be resisted in the first part of the downswing (which I agree with). I'll say though, that it's a pretty "unconscious" move and not something I need to think about.

[slicefixer]

[quote name='hoganfan924' post='817918' date='Dec 9 2007, 04:31 PM']I understand, I just don't feel any need to consciously continue to pronate in the downswing. I come down the pane of glass pretty well IMO without having to feel this extra move. I just feel like I'm sliding the back of my left hand "down the pane of glass," more or less "holding the forearm rotation" in the initial downswing move without adding more. My interpretation of what the authors are really stating is that as the right arm straightens, and the left arm swings down, the left forearm naturally supinates, and that supination needs to be resisted in the first part of the downswing (which I agree with). I'll say though, that it's a pretty "unconscious" move and not something I need to think about.[/quote]


You do NOT have to "re-rotate" the forearm in the donswing........in the TRANSITION the arms/butt of the club are PULLED more "down than around" and then when the core reaches the left pivot point and starts REALLY accelerating LEFT the left arm is PULLED LEFT/AROUND and so is the butt of the club and the face squares.......in a "perfect world" anyway.....

[jeffy]

In one of his [i]Secrets from the Vault[/i] dvds, Hardy talks about this move (rotating the forearms clockwise in the first half of the backswing) as being important in a two-plane swing. As slice's comments suggest, Hardy doesn't think this should be part of a one-plane swing.

[Swingtheclub]

pronation is the position of the palm down supination is the position of the palm up. There fore if we play with two hands on the club . If the left arm pronates the right arm supinates and if the right arm pronates the left arm supinates.

I have always thought that since I like the left arm to have more control of the swing than the right arm and side that I play better when I think about supinating the left hand at impact.

Now if this guy is using the termination correctly that would mean that when he starts the downswing he wants the left arm to rotate more to the right?


That makes no sense to me at all.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='kenk7us2002' post='817989' date='Dec 9 2007, 05:54 PM']pronation is the position of the palm down supination is the position of the palm up. There fore if we play with two hands on the club . If the left arm pronates the right arm supinates and if the right arm pronates the left arm supinates.

I have always thought that since I like the left arm to have more control of the swing than the right arm and side that I play better when I think about supinating the left hand at impact.

Now if this guy is using the termination correctly that would mean that when he starts the downswing he wants the left arm to rotate more to the right?


That makes no sense to me at all.[/quote]
What the book esentially says is that from the top of the downswing until right before the hands release the left arm pronates. Then when the hands release the whole situation reverses itself and as the hands whip trough the shot they supinate. I dont think that the pronation of the hands to start the DS is that much of a conscience movement, but more the result of the forward and horizontal tilt of the downswing plane. If you think about it if the swing flattens coming down then you are technically pronating the left arm coming down right until before impact.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='hoganfan924' post='817918' date='Dec 9 2007, 04:31 PM']I understand, I just don't feel any need to consciously continue to pronate in the downswing. I come down the pane of glass pretty well IMO without having to feel this extra move. I just feel like I'm sliding the back of my left hand "down the pane of glass," more or less "holding the forearm rotation" in the initial downswing move without adding more. My interpretation of what the authors are really stating is that as the right arm straightens, and the left arm swings down, the left forearm naturally supinates, and that supination needs to be resisted in the first part of the downswing (which I agree with). I'll say though, that it's a pretty "unconscious" move and not something I need to think about.[/quote]

If you feel like the back of your left hand is moving down the pane of glass, and as Hogan states in 5 lessons the DS plane is flatter than the BS plane, then aren't you in effect pronating the left arm the first part of the DS? And then of course supinating just prior to impact?
This is how I interpret what they are saying in TSFTPS

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='dlygrisse' post='818033' date='Dec 9 2007, 05:34 PM'][quote name='hoganfan924' post='817918' date='Dec 9 2007, 04:31 PM']I understand, I just don't feel any need to consciously continue to pronate in the downswing. I come down the pane of glass pretty well IMO without having to feel this extra move. I just feel like I'm sliding the back of my left hand "down the pane of glass," more or less "holding the forearm rotation" in the initial downswing move without adding more. My interpretation of what the authors are really stating is that as the right arm straightens, and the left arm swings down, the left forearm naturally supinates, and that supination needs to be resisted in the first part of the downswing (which I agree with). I'll say though, that it's a pretty "unconscious" move and not something I need to think about.[/quote]

If you feel like the back of your left hand is moving down the pane of glass, and as Hogan states in 5 lessons the DS plane is flatter than the BS plane, then aren't you in effect pronating the left arm the first part of the DS? And then of course supinating just prior to impact?
This is how I interpret what they are saying in TSFTPS
[/quote]

No. I believe there is a small plane shift due to the hips clearing, the lower spine moving toward the target and a resulting increase in axis tilt. Not created by the hands/forearm but by the body.

[Swingtheclub]

You realize if the left arm is pronating all the way down in the downswing that means it would be turning backwards away from the ball.

I would hurt myself if I even tried that. It makes no sense to me.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='hoganfan924' post='818038' date='Dec 9 2007, 06:41 PM'][quote name='dlygrisse' post='818033' date='Dec 9 2007, 05:34 PM'][quote name='hoganfan924' post='817918' date='Dec 9 2007, 04:31 PM']I understand, I just don't feel any need to consciously continue to pronate in the downswing. I come down the pane of glass pretty well IMO without having to feel this extra move. I just feel like I'm sliding the back of my left hand "down the pane of glass," more or less "holding the forearm rotation" in the initial downswing move without adding more. My interpretation of what the authors are really stating is that as the right arm straightens, and the left arm swings down, the left forearm naturally supinates, and that supination needs to be resisted in the first part of the downswing (which I agree with). I'll say though, that it's a pretty "unconscious" move and not something I need to think about.[/quote]

If you feel like the back of your left hand is moving down the pane of glass, and as Hogan states in 5 lessons the DS plane is flatter than the BS plane, then aren't you in effect pronating the left arm the first part of the DS? And then of course supinating just prior to impact?
This is how I interpret what they are saying in TSFTPS
[/quote]

No. I believe there is a small plane shift due to the hips clearing, the lower spine moving toward the target and a resulting increase in axis tilt. Not created by the hands/forearm but by the body.
[/quote]

maybe our arguement is just a matter of semantics now, I personally am not 100% sure what the book is trying to say, and I don't have an axe to grind here, but IMO the plane shift you are speaking of is causing the pronation I am speaking of. It might be a matter of "feel" and not "real"

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='kenk7us2002' post='818047' date='Dec 9 2007, 06:47 PM']You realize if the left arm is pronating all the way down in the downswing that means it would be turning backwards away from the ball.

I would hurt myself if I even tried that. It makes no sense to me.[/quote]

As I said to HoganFan, I think that the plane shift on the downswing might be what the authors are referring to, which causes the back of the left arm and hand to pronate or face more towards the sky. I am not sure if it is a conscience movement of the left arm, but more of a cause and effect relationship. Anyway, this is just a swing theory that seemed to make sense to me on a snowy day while watching football, while reading an old, but well respected book. Just curious what everyone thought.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='817921' date='Dec 9 2007, 04:36 PM'][quote name='hoganfan924' post='817918' date='Dec 9 2007, 04:31 PM']I understand, I just don't feel any need to consciously continue to pronate in the downswing. I come down the pane of glass pretty well IMO without having to feel this extra move. I just feel like I'm sliding the back of my left hand "down the pane of glass," more or less "holding the forearm rotation" in the initial downswing move without adding more. My interpretation of what the authors are really stating is that as the right arm straightens, and the left arm swings down, the left forearm naturally supinates, and that supination needs to be resisted in the first part of the downswing (which I agree with). I'll say though, that it's a pretty "unconscious" move and not something I need to think about.[/quote]


You do NOT have to "re-rotate" the forearm in the donswing........in the TRANSITION the arms/butt of the club are PULLED more "down than around" and then when the core reaches the left pivot point and starts REALLY accelerating LEFT the left arm is PULLED LEFT/AROUND and so is the butt of the club and the face squares.......in a "perfect world" anyway.....
[/quote]

I like what you are saying, when attempting to use your swing theories in the past, I have had a tendency to pull the ball. I think I was so obsessed with working the handle left that I was spinning out and coming over it. The image of the club working down and then left seems to make much more sense to me. I know you advocate a body oriented rotary swing, which I believe is the best way to do it in an ideal world, but I personally learn better when I can visualize the path of the hands and clubhead.

[JeffMann]

dylgrisse

I have no problem understanding what you are implying when you state that one shallows the clubshaft at the start of the downswing by pronating the left hand while supinating the right hand - a "feeling" of changing the downswing plane as described by Hogan in his "Five Lessons" book, so that the downswing plane is shallower and directed slightly to the right of the ball-target line. Different golfers have different ways of learning to accomplish this goal by having different mental images in one's head as one starts the downswing. Here is my approach.

If you look at my recent swing video lesson on the OTT move, I talk of the movement of the right hand being like skipping stones. I divide the stone skipping action into three separate actions. The one action is the movement of the right elbow down to the right hip at the very start of the downswing. I demonstrate this action in segment 2 starting at 3:40 minutes.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNvCMDGmGNs"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rNvCMDGmGNs[/url]

If one stops the swing video at 3:53 minutes, one can see my body position at the very start of the downswing where I have the right elbow jammed into my right hip area. I believe that one shallows the clubshaft plane by perfoming that action of pulling the right elbow down to the right hip at the very start of the downswing, so that the right forearm falls back towards the tush line. That movement of the right elbow (right elbow leads right hand) causes the clubshaft/clubhead to fall backwards towards the tush line, and it thereby causes the right hand to undergo a supinating action in space while the left hand undergoes a pronation action in space. In other words, I achieve the same goal of pronating the left hand/supinating the right hand at the very start of the downswing, and shallowing the clubshaft plane, by the simple [b]action of bringing the right elbow down to the right hip area.[/b]

That "stone skipping" swing thought may help some golfers achieve the same goal that you are talking about.

Jeff.

[slicefixer]

[quote name='dlygrisse' post='818101' date='Dec 9 2007, 07:52 PM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='817921' date='Dec 9 2007, 04:36 PM'][quote name='hoganfan924' post='817918' date='Dec 9 2007, 04:31 PM']I understand, I just don't feel any need to consciously continue to pronate in the downswing. I come down the pane of glass pretty well IMO without having to feel this extra move. I just feel like I'm sliding the back of my left hand "down the pane of glass," more or less "holding the forearm rotation" in the initial downswing move without adding more. My interpretation of what the authors are really stating is that as the right arm straightens, and the left arm swings down, the left forearm naturally supinates, and that supination needs to be resisted in the first part of the downswing (which I agree with). I'll say though, that it's a pretty "unconscious" move and not something I need to think about.[/quote]


You do NOT have to "re-rotate" the forearm in the donswing........in the TRANSITION the arms/butt of the club are PULLED more "down than around" and then when the core reaches the left pivot point and starts REALLY accelerating LEFT the left arm is PULLED LEFT/AROUND and so is the butt of the club and the face squares.......in a "perfect world" anyway.....
[/quote]

I like what you are saying, when attempting to use your swing theories in the past, I have had a tendency to pull the ball. I think I was so obsessed with working the handle left that I was spinning out and coming over it. The image of the club working down and then left seems to make much more sense to me. I know you advocate a body oriented rotary swing, which I believe is the best way to do it in an ideal world, but I personally learn better when I can visualize the path of the hands and clubhead.
[/quote]

If your pulling it then your either NOT "into" your LEFT side in the downswing (which is usually a matter of adjusting the SET UP "angles" a bit) and/or your not "holding off the toe" long enough........meaning the body is "stalling" and the clubhead is catching up and the "toe covers".......result: PULL.........You MUST get to your left side/left pivot point/left leg......INSIDE of the left hip socket OVER the left heel for any shot you wish to really compress/hit down on..........left hip OVER the left heel for a mid/long iron/fwy wood.......and the OUTSIDE of the left hip over the INSIDE of the left heel for a driver..........IF you "if you don't make it" then your "spinning/spun out".....result, PULL LEFT/"WIPE" RIGHT pattern........as for the "core stall" scenario, when you "slow the core and the toe covers" you'll almost always PULL/HOOK/PULL-HOOK it when you hit it solid.......In my experience when a good player "slows/stalls the core" in the downswing it's NOT because they WANT TO it's because they HAVE TO in order for the clubhead to square up.......and any number of a TON of things can FORCE the player to "slow/stall" the core rotation......too many to list...........

With all of THAT being said, I RARELY see a good player with "a case of the pulls" that can't be "fixed" by simply adjusting the set up angles.......sometimes ya' gotta' adjust the face a bit too, but, usually one or both will fix it.........the only exception would be a player who's gotten into a bunch of bad habits trying to "fight the pull".......That's why I'm ALWAYS harping on FUNDAMENTALS.....primarily GRIP and POSTURE..........you get those two correct and it's hard not to end up with a resonably fundamental golf swing.......screw em' up and you've sentenced yourself to a LOT of hard work to OVERCOME them......can be done, but, why would you "dig yourself a hole BEFORE you've even taken the club back?"......

[slicefixer]

"action of bringing the right elbow down to the right hip area."..........correct Doc......but the ARMS are not what does it........the ARMS are reacting to a correct transition move.........you can't just "put your right elbow into your right pants pocket and whallah".......what your describing is VERY true, but, it's a REACTION to a properl TRANSITION and NOT some "move" created by the arms/elbows/hands, etc.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='818251' date='Dec 9 2007, 08:57 PM']"action of bringing the right elbow down to the right hip area."..........correct Doc......but the ARMS are not what does it........the ARMS are reacting to a correct transition move.........you can't just "put your right elbow into your right pants pocket and whallah".......what your describing is VERY true, but, it's a REACTION to a properl TRANSITION and NOT some "move" created by the arms/elbows/hands, etc.[/quote]

Interesting point. I've always noticed that when I try to force my right elbow into my hip I invariably get a gap between my right arm and side but when I pivot and pull with the left with no conscious effort to put my right elbow into position, and just allow the arms to react to the body, the right elbow ends up where I want it.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='818246' date='Dec 9 2007, 09:52 PM'][quote name='dlygrisse' post='818101' date='Dec 9 2007, 07:52 PM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='817921' date='Dec 9 2007, 04:36 PM'][quote name='hoganfan924' post='817918' date='Dec 9 2007, 04:31 PM']I understand, I just don't feel any need to consciously continue to pronate in the downswing. I come down the pane of glass pretty well IMO without having to feel this extra move. I just feel like I'm sliding the back of my left hand "down the pane of glass," more or less "holding the forearm rotation" in the initial downswing move without adding more. My interpretation of what the authors are really stating is that as the right arm straightens, and the left arm swings down, the left forearm naturally supinates, and that supination needs to be resisted in the first part of the downswing (which I agree with). I'll say though, that it's a pretty "unconscious" move and not something I need to think about.[/quote]


You do NOT have to "re-rotate" the forearm in the donswing........in the TRANSITION the arms/butt of the club are PULLED more "down than around" and then when the core reaches the left pivot point and starts REALLY accelerating LEFT the left arm is PULLED LEFT/AROUND and so is the butt of the club and the face squares.......in a "perfect world" anyway.....
[/quote]

I like what you are saying, when attempting to use your swing theories in the past, I have had a tendency to pull the ball. I think I was so obsessed with working the handle left that I was spinning out and coming over it. The image of the club working down and then left seems to make much more sense to me. I know you advocate a body oriented rotary swing, which I believe is the best way to do it in an ideal world, but I personally learn better when I can visualize the path of the hands and clubhead.
[/quote]

If your pulling it then your either NOT "into" your LEFT side in the downswing (which is usually a matter of adjusting the SET UP "angles" a bit) and/or your not "holding off the toe" long enough........meaning the body is "stalling" and the clubhead is catching up and the "toe covers".......result: PULL.........You MUST get to your left side/left pivot point/left leg......INSIDE of the left hip socket OVER the left heel for any shot you wish to really compress/hit down on..........left hip OVER the left heel for a mid/long iron/fwy wood.......and the OUTSIDE of the left hip over the INSIDE of the left heel for a driver..........IF you "if you don't make it" then your "spinning/spun out".....result, PULL LEFT/"WIPE" RIGHT pattern........as for the "core stall" scenario, when you "slow the core and the toe covers" you'll almost always PULL/HOOK/PULL-HOOK it when you hit it solid.......In my experience when a good player "slows/stalls the core" in the downswing it's NOT because they WANT TO it's because they HAVE TO in order for the clubhead to square up.......and any number of a TON of things can FORCE the player to "slow/stall" the core rotation......too many to list...........

With all of THAT being said, I RARELY see a good player with "a case of the pulls" that can't be "fixed" by simply adjusting the set up angles.......sometimes ya' gotta' adjust the face a bit too, but, usually one or both will fix it.........the only exception would be a player who's gotten into a bunch of bad habits trying to "fight the pull".......That's why I'm ALWAYS harping on FUNDAMENTALS.....primarily GRIP and POSTURE..........you get those two correct and it's hard not to end up with a resonably fundamental golf swing.......screw em' up and you've sentenced yourself to a LOT of hard work to OVERCOME them......can be done, but, why would you "dig yourself a hole BEFORE you've even taken the club back?"......
[/quote]
So....weight 60/40 (in favor of the left leg)for short irons, 50/50 for mid irons and 40/60 for the driver?

[slicefixer]

[quote name='dlygrisse' post='818298' date='Dec 9 2007, 10:38 PM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='818246' date='Dec 9 2007, 09:52 PM'][quote name='dlygrisse' post='818101' date='Dec 9 2007, 07:52 PM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='817921' date='Dec 9 2007, 04:36 PM'][quote name='hoganfan924' post='817918' date='Dec 9 2007, 04:31 PM']I understand, I just don't feel any need to consciously continue to pronate in the downswing. I come down the pane of glass pretty well IMO without having to feel this extra move. I just feel like I'm sliding the back of my left hand "down the pane of glass," more or less "holding the forearm rotation" in the initial downswing move without adding more. My interpretation of what the authors are really stating is that as the right arm straightens, and the left arm swings down, the left forearm naturally supinates, and that supination needs to be resisted in the first part of the downswing (which I agree with). I'll say though, that it's a pretty "unconscious" move and not something I need to think about.[/quote]


You do NOT have to "re-rotate" the forearm in the donswing........in the TRANSITION the arms/butt of the club are PULLED more "down than around" and then when the core reaches the left pivot point and starts REALLY accelerating LEFT the left arm is PULLED LEFT/AROUND and so is the butt of the club and the face squares.......in a "perfect world" anyway.....
[/quote]

I like what you are saying, when attempting to use your swing theories in the past, I have had a tendency to pull the ball. I think I was so obsessed with working the handle left that I was spinning out and coming over it. The image of the club working down and then left seems to make much more sense to me. I know you advocate a body oriented rotary swing, which I believe is the best way to do it in an ideal world, but I personally learn better when I can visualize the path of the hands and clubhead.
[/quote]

If your pulling it then your either NOT "into" your LEFT side in the downswing (which is usually a matter of adjusting the SET UP "angles" a bit) and/or your not "holding off the toe" long enough........meaning the body is "stalling" and the clubhead is catching up and the "toe covers".......result: PULL.........You MUST get to your left side/left pivot point/left leg......INSIDE of the left hip socket OVER the left heel for any shot you wish to really compress/hit down on..........left hip OVER the left heel for a mid/long iron/fwy wood.......and the OUTSIDE of the left hip over the INSIDE of the left heel for a driver..........IF you "if you don't make it" then your "spinning/spun out".....result, PULL LEFT/"WIPE" RIGHT pattern........as for the "core stall" scenario, when you "slow the core and the toe covers" you'll almost always PULL/HOOK/PULL-HOOK it when you hit it solid.......In my experience when a good player "slows/stalls the core" in the downswing it's NOT because they WANT TO it's because they HAVE TO in order for the clubhead to square up.......and any number of a TON of things can FORCE the player to "slow/stall" the core rotation......too many to list...........

With all of THAT being said, I RARELY see a good player with "a case of the pulls" that can't be "fixed" by simply adjusting the set up angles.......sometimes ya' gotta' adjust the face a bit too, but, usually one or both will fix it.........the only exception would be a player who's gotten into a bunch of bad habits trying to "fight the pull".......That's why I'm ALWAYS harping on FUNDAMENTALS.....primarily GRIP and POSTURE..........you get those two correct and it's hard not to end up with a resonably fundamental golf swing.......screw em' up and you've sentenced yourself to a LOT of hard work to OVERCOME them......can be done, but, why would you "dig yourself a hole BEFORE you've even taken the club back?"......
[/quote]
So....weight 60/40 (in favor of the left leg)for short irons, 50/50 for mid irons and 40/60 for the driver?[/quote]

Well, depends on the individual ........perception as to the % of weight right vs. left varies from person to person.........but those numbers are close with the only adjustment I'd make would be larger percentage of weight "set" left for short irons (or any iron you want to really "trap")

[Swingtheclub]

Jeff

Baseball players throw the ball side arm for quick short throws for power they throw the ball overhand.

Properly throwing the ball overhand you do not have to wind the body up so much.

[dlygrisse]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='818308' date='Dec 9 2007, 10:45 PM'][quote name='dlygrisse' post='818298' date='Dec 9 2007, 10:38 PM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='818246' date='Dec 9 2007, 09:52 PM'][quote name='dlygrisse' post='818101' date='Dec 9 2007, 07:52 PM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='817921' date='Dec 9 2007, 04:36 PM'][quote name='hoganfan924' post='817918' date='Dec 9 2007, 04:31 PM']I understand, I just don't feel any need to consciously continue to pronate in the downswing. I come down the pane of glass pretty well IMO without having to feel this extra move. I just feel like I'm sliding the back of my left hand "down the pane of glass," more or less "holding the forearm rotation" in the initial downswing move without adding more. My interpretation of what the authors are really stating is that as the right arm straightens, and the left arm swings down, the left forearm naturally supinates, and that supination needs to be resisted in the first part of the downswing (which I agree with). I'll say though, that it's a pretty "unconscious" move and not something I need to think about.[/quote]


You do NOT have to "re-rotate" the forearm in the donswing........in the TRANSITION the arms/butt of the club are PULLED more "down than around" and then when the core reaches the left pivot point and starts REALLY accelerating LEFT the left arm is PULLED LEFT/AROUND and so is the butt of the club and the face squares.......in a "perfect world" anyway.....
[/quote]

I like what you are saying, when attempting to use your swing theories in the past, I have had a tendency to pull the ball. I think I was so obsessed with working the handle left that I was spinning out and coming over it. The image of the club working down and then left seems to make much more sense to me. I know you advocate a body oriented rotary swing, which I believe is the best way to do it in an ideal world, but I personally learn better when I can visualize the path of the hands and clubhead.
[/quote]

If your pulling it then your either NOT "into" your LEFT side in the downswing (which is usually a matter of adjusting the SET UP "angles" a bit) and/or your not "holding off the toe" long enough........meaning the body is "stalling" and the clubhead is catching up and the "toe covers".......result: PULL.........You MUST get to your left side/left pivot point/left leg......INSIDE of the left hip socket OVER the left heel for any shot you wish to really compress/hit down on..........left hip OVER the left heel for a mid/long iron/fwy wood.......and the OUTSIDE of the left hip over the INSIDE of the left heel for a driver..........IF you "if you don't make it" then your "spinning/spun out".....result, PULL LEFT/"WIPE" RIGHT pattern........as for the "core stall" scenario, when you "slow the core and the toe covers" you'll almost always PULL/HOOK/PULL-HOOK it when you hit it solid.......In my experience when a good player "slows/stalls the core" in the downswing it's NOT because they WANT TO it's because they HAVE TO in order for the clubhead to square up.......and any number of a TON of things can FORCE the player to "slow/stall" the core rotation......too many to list...........

With all of THAT being said, I RARELY see a good player with "a case of the pulls" that can't be "fixed" by simply adjusting the set up angles.......sometimes ya' gotta' adjust the face a bit too, but, usually one or both will fix it.........the only exception would be a player who's gotten into a bunch of bad habits trying to "fight the pull".......That's why I'm ALWAYS harping on FUNDAMENTALS.....primarily GRIP and POSTURE..........you get those two correct and it's hard not to end up with a resonably fundamental golf swing.......screw em' up and you've sentenced yourself to a LOT of hard work to OVERCOME them......can be done, but, why would you "dig yourself a hole BEFORE you've even taken the club back?"......
[/quote]
So....weight 60/40 (in favor of the left leg)for short irons, 50/50 for mid irons and 40/60 for the driver?[/quote]

Well, depends on the individual ........perception as to the % of weight right vs. left varies from person to person.........but those numbers are close with the only adjustment I'd make would be larger percentage of weight "set" left for short irons (or any iron you want to really "trap")
[/quote]

Thanks, i will give it a try the next time I can see green grass and the temp. gets above 40 degrees

[JeffMann]

Ken - you wrote-: "Baseball players throw the ball side arm for quick short throws for power they throw the ball overhand."

 

I have a different perception of the situation. I think that a baseball player throws side-arm with the right arm alone for quick short throws, and that they use a side-throw action with much more body movement if they want to throw side-throw with much more throw-power. The extra throw-power comes from incorporating a lot of body pivot-rotation action into the side-throw action (like a baseball pitcher). I think that they use an overhand action for throwing long distances, because they need a throw action that creates a high and long ball flight. An overhand throw action is much better for starting the ball flight at a higher launch angle.

 

SF - The action of bringing the right elbow to the right hip area is not necessarily reactive to a good transition move. It is part of a good transition move. I believe that a good transition move at the start of the downswing involves three movements occurring simultaneously - hip shift-rotation move, right shoulder moving downplane and right elbow being pulled rapidly down to the right hip area. Here is Hogan demonstrating the three-part action.

 

 

The result of this three-part transition move is a shallowing of the clubshaft.

 

Jeff.

[slicefixer]

Jeff.....It IS "reactive".....and it's NOT a "3 part transition move".....if it were then most good players couldn't hit it a lick .......at least if you want to create a fundamentally sound downswing sequence.........the "set" of the arms REACT to and are PULLED BY the proper use of the core of the body in the transition and if the arms/clubhead are in a fundamentally sound position then the clubhead shallows.......anyway, the ARMS/club don't do ANYTHING but "go along for the ride".......Mr. Hogan even said this himself.......I'm not going to go dig through 5 Lessons as it's late, but, it's there....... NOW, if we are referring to your arms in your swing that you posted then this would NOT be true as you are FORCED to "work your arms down" consciously in the transition due to "where they are at the top".......but, that doesnt' mean that great ballstrikers did this.......quite the contrary, they simply PULLED what they'd "set" at the top (or in their transition) "down and around"......you can't do this as your core is "tipped over" and on poor angles IMOP and your arms have "run off" quite a bit "out of synch" with your core........but, you have to understand that I don't think Fred Couples (for example) is a great ballstriker......etc.......good most of the time.......GREAT when his timing is dead on PERFECT.......and basically terrible at times too......JMOP....but, you CAN trust me on this, he CAN hit it a MILE off line at times......and "double cross" with the best of em' (which is a symptom of his "style" of golf swing.....good players with his "style" of swing can usually hit it a mile......in a zillion different directions.........and they almost always end up with bad backs too........that's why I don't teach it even though I KNOW it can work in the "right HANDS"...........

[Lake]

[quote name='JeffMann' post='818386' date='Dec 9 2007, 09:40 PM']The action of bringing the right elbow to the right hip area is not necessarily reactive to a good transition move. It is [b]part of [/b]a good transition move. I believe that a good transition move at the start of the downswing involves three movements occurring [b]simultaneously[/b] - hip shift-rotation move, right shoulder moving downplane and right elbow being pulled rapidly down to the right hip area.
The result of this three-part transition move is a shallowing of the clubshaft.

Jeff.[/quote]

In staying with the theme of [u]Search for the Perfect Swing[/u] Chapter 7 p.52:

"Every part of the rotating and swinging system must be pulled round by the part nearer to the ground, until that part can no longer apply useful effort. That is, in terms of the human golfer, the legs pull round the hips, the hips the trunk, the trunk the upper chest and shoulders, the shoulders the arms, the arms the hands, the hands the shaft, and the shaft the clubhead."


Dr. Jeff Mann "www.perfectgolfswingreview.net" Downswing section:

As you can see from the photographs, a ball thrower first inaugurates the side-throw ball-throwing action with a lower body (hip) rotation towards the target. Then, secondly and near simultaneously, the ball thrower lowers the right elbow to the hip area so that the right elbow leads the hands. The right shoulder is held back initially and only catches up with the hips in the latter part of the throwing motion just before the ball is released from the hands. The sequence of movements can be thought of as occurring in the following manner-: hips shift to the left and turn, and the lower body weight is simultaneously transferred to the left side => right elbow moves down to the right hip area with right hand held back behind the right elbow (after the right hip has "cleared" thus making space for the right elbow) => shoulders turn across the front of the body, while the hips continue turning, causing the right arm to be flung passively across the body (right arm becomes extended by centrifugal and forearm muscle forces) => right elbow straightens, right wrist unhinges, and the ball is released.


Jeff,

I'm hoping that you were just a little tired when you wrote the above statement If you were not, than please explain the new discovery.

Lake

[wkuo3]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='818585' date='Dec 10 2007, 01:11 AM']Jeff.....It IS "reactive"..... .......at least if you want to create a fundamentally sound downswing sequence.........the "set" of the arms REACT to and are PULLED BY the proper use of the core of the body in the transition.......they don't do ANYTHING but "go along for the ride".......Mr. Hogan even said this himself.......I'm not going to go dig through 5 Lessons, but, it's there....... [/quote]
Slicefixer, this is exactly what my first instructor told me long- long time ago ( 100% of the content if not verbatim ). When you do it correctly, everyhing sould happen naturally.

[slicefixer]

[quote name='wkuo3' post='818598' date='Dec 10 2007, 02:30 AM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='818585' date='Dec 10 2007, 01:11 AM']Jeff.....It IS "reactive"..... .......at least if you want to create a fundamentally sound downswing sequence.........the "set" of the arms REACT to and are PULLED BY the proper use of the core of the body in the transition.......they don't do ANYTHING but "go along for the ride".......Mr. Hogan even said this himself.......I'm not going to go dig through 5 Lessons, but, it's there....... [/quote]
Slicefixer, this is exactly what my first instructor told me long- long time ago ( 100% of the content if not verbatim ). When you do it correctly, everyhing sould happen naturally.
[/quote]


Kuo3, I always go with what Mr. Burke said, or is attributed to him anyway (I didn't hear it with my own ears)...(paraphrasing) ......."a good player CAN think about the backswing, but, the downswing is a totally different animal......it happens to quick" ........ Asleep knows Mr. Burke so he can find out if he said it......but, it's very true IMOP...... This is NOT to say you can't have a "downswing swing KEY".......hell, most of the best one's are downswing keys.....but, you'd damn well better be THINKING IT BEFORE YOU TAKE THE CLUB BACK........ IMOP, when speaking of the best golf swings, the DOWNSWING is simply a REACTION to the backswing....."it just happens"........and it doesn't require the "alignment of the sun, moon, and stars" in the backswing either........

[Lake]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='818600' date='Dec 10 2007, 12:35 AM']........and it doesn't require the "alignment of the sun, moon, and stars" in the backswing either........ [/quote]

I agree.... but your MOON better better be good at gettin' back in alignment every time, the same way, and under pressure. Too much drama on the trip out and the chance you're riding back in the same car going home ain't likely Like Mr. Hardy says "TOUR players are like cats: drop them upside down and they land on their feet...the rest of us are like Dogs: you better drop us with our feet down or we are in trouble."