Iron Shaft Lean at Address With Offset

[skyking]

Bought some hybrid irons with considerable offset (Tour Edge e521) to experiment with in the golf studio over the winter. Getting older and thought I’d give them a try. I was using the Skypro swing analyzer yesterday with the Skytrak and was shocked it kept saying WTF your shaft lean at address was around 15° on most shots but should be around 0° for a mid iron! Didn’t really have that issue with my Mizunos. When I just set...say the 7 hybrid iron flat on the Fiberbuilt mat the shaft is naturally VERY forward. I’ll go out to the studio this afternoon and try 0° shaft lean but it seems like that manipulation will cause the leading edge to be just below the equator at address...maybe not. Yes I know you impact position will be different...just seems like a setup for thin shot city. 
 

What am I missing here?

[Zitlow]

Irons are designed with a built in lead, more for shorter irons and progressively less as the irons get longer. 

[skyking]

20 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

Irons are designed with a built in lead, more for shorter irons and progressively less as the irons get longer. 

Hum...could you expand on that a little?

[Zitlow]

When irons are soled flat on the ground the shaft leads/leans in front of the club face. The shorter the iron the more the lead.

 

 

[skyking]

Thanks...so on Skypro it shows the “fault” of excessive forward shaft lean at address. Tap on “explanation” it brings up a page with Michael Breed explaining that mid irons should have around 0° shaft lean at address. 
 

So are you saying at address with mid irons there has to be some shaft lean or that I’ve probably been addressing the ball incorrectly with irons and not taking that shaft lean out at address?

[Zitlow]

No offense to Mr. Breed but yes. On standard shots you should be looking a little across the shaft of a 5 iron to get the correct loft at address. Hands positioned off the inside of the left thigh. We hear about loft and lie angle but not much about lead angle. 

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by Zitlow

[skyking]

Okay...Ziltlow thanks. 
 

Was just out hitting a few and it was odd getting the shaft even near to 0° shaft lean because the more I brought the shaft back the more the face closed. I can manipulate the face back to open but then I have to adjust my grip. So weird...

 

As a result of that manipulation for offset I think that screws up the registering of the swing because it feels like I’m taking the club way outside on the backswing  but it’s still telling me I am too inside “halfway back”. 
 

BTW... as you would imagine the peak height is much higher and the decent  angle is considerably higher as well as spin, which is all a good thing but i’m not sure I can remove all that shaft lean without a lot of time to grove it. Plus I need to hit off an actual fairway. I have a very good mat but it’s more like hitting from the first cut.

[skyking]

Just a BTW...very impressed with the ironwood consistency over the Mizzy JPX919HM’s. Yeah...fallen a long way from my MP60’s. Anyway didn’t realize I was getting the more than occasional knuckleball off the HM’s giving me 10+ yards + lots of roll. Playing rounds on the sim the data was there...guess I was just like wow look how far that went without realizing the spin was low...at times. Good clubs otherwise.   

[Zitlow]

@NotThatGuyorAmI?

Maybe.

[skyking]

9 hours ago, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

 

Possibly Breed was talking about the driver.

 

Maybe Skypro is set for driver swings?

Nope...but your comment is logical. The picture and narrative underneath by Michael talks about different clubs and degree of shaft lean at address. The weird thing is if I simply sole the club with offset, use one finger on the grip to hold it up with no manipulation, the shaft leans well forward.

[skyking]

10 hours ago, NotThatGuyorAmI? said:

I think those knuckle balls is what those HM’s are designed to produce.

Funny but think true. I've noticed the more flush the shot the lower the spin. Seemed counterintuitive based on MP60's. The hybrid irons hit the ball sky high with lots of spin in comparison but distance is about the same on average shots. I'm guessing Tour Edge could lower the height of shots and get more distance but you'll give up stopping power.

[Ri_Redneck]

So the Skypro was actually saying WTF?!?!

 

BT

[pacman16]

On 12/3/2020 at 4:01 PM, Zitlow said:

No offense to Mr. Breed but yes. On standard shots you should be looking a little across the shaft of a 5 iron to get the correct loft at address. Hands positioned off the inside of the left thigh. We hear about loft and lie angle but not much about lead angle. 

 

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I’m used to playing with no offset split soles.

 

 

I’m fiddling around with irons right now that have offset.  When I set up with a 2 iron with the leading edge facing the target … there isn’t much shaft lean.  With the pitching wedge .. there is clearly shaft lean.

 

It feels weird to me but you’re saying this is proper?

[Zitlow]

A two iron doesn't have much lead or lean built in. The shorter the club the more shaft lean so a wedge with the ball played in the middle of the stance has more shaft lean than a driver which has none or maybe a little negative shaft lean. 

 

 

 

Some people don't move the ball back for shorter clubs and play the ball in the same position for all clubs which can work too. 

[pacman16]

26 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

A two iron doesn't have much lead or lean built in. The shorter the club the more shaft lean so a wedge with the ball played in the middle of the stance has more shaft lean than a driver which has none or maybe a little negative shaft lean. 

 

 

 

Some people don't move the ball back for shorter clubs and play the ball in the same position for all clubs which can work too. 

But what you are saying is … line up the leading edge with the target line and don’t worry if my hands shift forward a bit?  
 

It’s a very different feeling than with non offset irons.

[pacman16]

I can’t hit balls right now but it feels like every shot will be a draw.

[Zitlow]

I've never had irons with a lot of offset so it's something you'll have to experiment with. I would think there would be more lead with offset  irons. You can lay the sole flat on a table and be able to see how much lead there is. 

 

Irons are designed with a built in lead or lean so just sole them flat on the ground and the shaft will be leaning forward a little with a two iron and more for a wedge. 

 

So with short irons you look across the shaft more at address than with long irons. 

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by Zitlow

[pacman16]

With offset irons I grip them club with the leading edge straight and then when I address the ball the hands get shoved forward. 

[Zitlow]

The address photo looks perfect. There isn't a lot of built in lead with a long iron but there is some because it's designed to hit down on the ball but not as much down as a wedge. So you would take bigger divots with a wedge and small divots with a longer club. 

 

[Chunkitgood]

I’ve watched shaft lean at address go in and out of style over the years.  Some great golfers have had very little with the left wrist quite cupped and some have had the shaft a straight extension of the left arm.  What Zitlow says is the conventional wisdom, but like other elements of an ideal setup not always followed (if ever).

 

My speculation is that offset causes you to modify your grip which causes you to move your hands up.

[cccdad]

So does more offset means more shaft lean built in at address?  

Thanks

Brian