Question about face matching back of lead hand at the top

bobbyclampett!! · September 26, 2021

It seems like all pros have the back of their lead hand matching the face at the top of their swing, regardless of their wrist angle. In the Twitter post below, there are all kinds of wrist angles, but the face seems to match the back of the left hand.

It seems no matter what I try, my face is always closed to the back of left hand at the top. The only way I have found to match them up is to weaken my left hand grip to an extremely weak position and open my face at address. I think the face should or could be slightly open at address, and that's fine, but nothing extreme. The more concerning part for me is that I seem to have to have a really weak left hand grip, like weaker than anything I've seen recommended, to achieve the alignment mentioned at the top. Like my left hand almost has to be on the left side of the grip, not on top of it at all, and it seems even the weakest grips you see are somewhat on top of the club, if even just a little bit. But when the left hand is turned over even fractionally, and the back of the left hand is slanted to the right even just a little bit, the club face would have to match at address by being tilted that much open, right? I mean, the only way the back of the lead hand could match up with a club face that is square at address is if the back of the lead hand is straight up and down at address, which no one recommends or seems to do.

And it seems like it shouldn't matter what you do during the swing that would affect that relationship, unless you are regripping the club during backswing, which I guess there is a chance I do that somewhat as I am used to playing with a face more shut to the back of my left hand.

Does anyone have any idea what is going on here? How are the pros achieving this alignment? I feel like I shouldn't have to turn my left hand extremely weak to where it is on the side of the club to achieve it.

Any help would be greatly appreciated. This issue wracks my brain and keeps me up at night...

Haroputt · September 27, 2021

I suppose if the face matches back of the left hand at the top then it must match at address. I think it would be extremely difficult to alter the grip during the swing

I prefer neutral left hand grip if possible

However I know that somedays I have “motorcycle left hand hold” and have to compensate with my left elbow and wrist angle to make it work.

Shouldn’t the left hand grip be strongish to match the face? All clubs have loft. So for example driver has approx 8-10 degree loft So to match the face shouldn’t the left hand grip turn strongish at least 8-10 degrees to match the face?

Edited September 27, 2021 by Haroputt

bobbyclampett!! · September 27, 2021

9 hours ago, Haroputt said:

Shouldn’t the left hand grip be strongish to match the face? All clubs have loft. So for example driver has approx 8-10 degree loft So to match the face shouldn’t the left hand grip turn strongish at least 8-10 degrees to match the face?

Hmmm, that's interesting, but I don't think the back of left hand is meant to match the loft of the club or is in fact matching the loft of the club in those photos. Rather the line of the plane formed by the back of the hand is meant to be parallel to the leading edge of the club, no matter the club. I'm pretty sure that's the case, as you wouldn't see a left hand turned over the club 46 degrees for like a pitching wedge.

Imagine your club face is perfectly aligned at target, so the club face is perpendicular to target line. It seems to me that, for the back of left hand to match at address, the back of the left hand would need to be straight up and down, and that you wouldn't be able to see any knuckles of your lead hand, and that you'd actually be able to see the underside of your lead hand, like the base of your thumb pad, and not the back of your left hand at all. But no one seems to teach that, and I don't think the pros are gripping it that weak with the left hand. In fact, some seem to have their left hand really kind of over the top of the grip and strong, yet the back of their left hand always seem to match the club face at the top. So are their club faces slightly open at address to match the slight tilt of the left hand that is over the grip?

I think there is a simple answer to all this, but I feel really confused by this particular issue.

Millbrook · September 27, 2021

I saw a video where it recommended gripping the club when it pointed at 2 o'clockish then returning to the set up position which would naturally cup the lead wrist. However I don't need to weaken my left hand to do it - perhaps give it a try.

This worked for me because I like to flatten the lead hand in the backswing otherwise I hit pushes.

Thought it was Martin Chuck but have searched his videos but can't find it.

Edit: Having looked at the pictures again they all have either a flat or bowed lead wrist. The wrist/hand position of the lead hand is not the same at address as it is at impact. What I describe in the first sentence puts the club in a position for impact even though the wrist angles will be different at address.

Edited September 27, 2021 by Millbrook

wagolfer7 · September 27, 2021

3 hours ago, bobbyclampett!! said:

I think there is a simple answer to all this, but I feel really confused by this particular issue.

You just about got it figured out on your own. Yes the logo of the glove should be more towards the target and not on top of the grip. I think the missing ingredient is, the heel pad of the lead hand being on top of the grip. Need to grip in the fingers, but the heel pad needs to be on top of the grip. If you don't set the heel pad on top, then you'll have a very strong grip with the logo facing the sky. Ton of good content on YouTube.

Two Big Parts of the Video:

1) Being able to hold the club with your left hand with only pointer finger and heel pad.

2) Being able to take multiple swings without the club twisting in your hands at all.

Edited September 27, 2021 by wagolfer7

chipa · September 27, 2021

I think more importantly is to make sure the left wrist is sufficiently flexible so that the left hand can align with the arm so that an efficient biomechanical connection is created so that the left side can pull down to start the swing and finish w/o manipluation through the impact area. There are many golfers that just focus on hitting certain positions and as a consequence never reach their max potential clubhead speed. John Daly does left arm swings to warm up. Manuel de La Torres has a great video about how the takeaway should work in order to have an efficient and connected arm and hand swing.

bobbyclampett!! · September 27, 2021

Hey everyone, thanks for your responses. I think I may have figured it out. Went to the range and set up a camera to film what was going on, and see how "weak" my "extremely weak, on the left side of the club and not on top of the club at all" grip felt. Turns out, once again, as always, "feel is not real."

Once I looked at the video, it seems that left hand grip is actually pretty neutral, and maybe not even weak at all? What do you guys think? Also, my "open" club face looks actually pretty square at address as well.

I think what is going on is that I grew up with a super strong left hand grip (like I could see all four knuckles of my left hand) and a hooded (closed) club face, so a truly neutral grip feels extremely weak and a square club face feels very open. Again, feel isn't real. Oh, golf! Check out the pics below. I think the club face is quite square to the back of left hand at the top and these all seem to be nice, neutral positions. This is a 9 iron, btw.

Edited September 27, 2021 by bobbyclampett!!
Video wasn't working. Shared youtube link.

ferrispgm · September 28, 2021

Stronger grips tend to reflect a more extended lead wrist at the top....a weaker grip tends to lead to more flexion at the top. Maybe an oversimplification but if you think about it.....stronger grips lead to a more closed clubface...in order for the face to be square at the top you would need more extension to offset. If you had a strong grip and flexed the wrist the face would be super closed.

You mention you take an extremely weak grip and open the face....I would caution against that. Open clubfaces for most people lead to tons of issues....snap hooks, clubface control issues as you typically have to stall/flip to square the face, high weak shots, etc. Looking at your video it looks like you have more of the stall/flip action going as your face is wide open at P6 from being steep in transition and because your grip is a touch weak. I would personally work on getting at least 1 1/2 to 2 knuckles visible and shallowing out the downswing a bit. Monte has some great videos on this (no turn cast and efficient swing) which goes into good detail and excellent ways to fix. I can't recommend them highly enough.

Try this in a mirror...go to the top with a touch stronger grip, stop and then flex the lead wrist. Look at how the shaft "plane" changes and the face closes....work down slowly from there stopping at each check point and tell me that's not a major improvement. Just a warning though that the process of going steep to shallow is PAINFUL...skulls and chunks abound but eventually when you get it...it's magical.

gaffs · May 22, 2023

Want to give this topic a bump because I have the same question. I have never thought i have too strong a grip but noticed on film my face looks very closed at the top.

Unfortunately, i don't have DJ-esq rotation, so i feel this may be leading to a high handle to square the face at impact. The shaft is way higher at impact than where it starts.

Been trying to weaken the grip some, but wondered if the rule of thumb is to have the leading edge square to the back of the hand? When practicing, im getting the back of hand lined up with the leading edge before setting up.

My full swing is here...

Thanks

Edited May 22, 2023 by gaffs

gaffs · May 25, 2023

So what you guys think. Should the leading edge always match the back of the hand?

I recall Adam Scott using it as a pre swing check point checkpoint a few years back...

iacas · May 25, 2023

30 minutes ago, gaffs said:

Should the leading edge always match the back of the hand?

No. That would be a pretty weak grip.

Edited May 25, 2023 by iacas

golferdude54 · May 25, 2023

Here's Tiger during the 2006 WGC American Express in which he had his career best strokes gained on tee shots and approach shots by far. In essence this was his ball striking prime outside of 2000. This day in particular was his best strokes gained off the tee for the week. Looks pretty parallel to me.