MGA '22 Question 17

[Newby]

17. In a stroke play competition, Player A plays his second stroke on a Par 4 onto the putting green.

For his second stroke, Player B plays two balls under Rule 20.1c(3) as he is unsure whether he will get relief for his stance being interfered with by a sprinkler head in the fairway. B correctly drops a ball under Rule 16.1, chooses this ball as the one to count if permitted, and plays this ball over the green into an area of high grass. He then plays the second ball onto the putting green, two feet from the hole.

To save time, A offers to putt while B searches for his ball over the putting green as the group is already behind on pace of play. A hits the putt off line and accidentally strikes B’s second ball on the putting green, knocking A’s ball into the hole and B’s second ball five feet away from the hole.

A calls over a nearby Rules Committee member as he is unsure whether or not he incurs a penalty for striking B’s second ball.

The Committee should rule that:

A. A will have a two-stroke penalty applied to his score if B’s second ball becomes the ball which counts. A’s putt counts as holed.

B. A will have a two-stroke penalty count regardless of which ball becomes B’s ball which counts. A’s putt counts as holed.

C. A does not receive any penalty for striking B’s ball and must cancel and replay the stroke.

D. A does not receive any penalty and his putt is considered holed.

[TerpFangolfer]

I got B...11.1a Exception says "hits another ball at rest on the green" So don't think it matters what ultimately happens to that ball, as far as which ends up as B's scoring ball

[antip]

There is no official answer to the issues raised in this question, they are live but yet unresolved. 

[Mr. Bean]

Referring to question #4 and R 11.1b Exception 2 it seems that 'a ball at rest' would mean a ball in play. IIRC when playing a second ball both balls are in play simultaneously until holed or taken out of play. Does anybody know whether this is the case?

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[antip]

10 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

Referring to question #4 and R 11.1b Exception 2 it seems that 'a ball at rest' would mean a ball in play. IIRC when playing a second ball both balls are in play simultaneously until holed or taken out of play. Does anybody know whether this is the case?

 

That is what is being considered by RBs. The definition of "in play" appears to preclude that both can be "in play" at the same time even though it recognises that more than one ball can be played (under rule 20.1c(3) and 14.7). This is only the start of the troubles - if you affirm (which hasn't happened yet) that only one is in play and the other is merely being played, you need a foolproof system to determine which is which in all circumstances, and it isn't clear that is possible.

So there can be no definitive answer to this MGA question at this stage.

[rogolf]

3 hours ago, antip said:

That is what is being considered by RBs. The definition of "in play" appears to preclude that both can be "in play" at the same time even though it recognises that more than one ball can be played (under rule 20.1c(3) and 14.7). This is only the start of the troubles - if you affirm (which hasn't happened yet) that only one is in play and the other is merely being played, you need a foolproof system to determine which is which in all circumstances, and it isn't clear that is possible.

So there can be no definitive answer to this MGA question at this stage.

Could it be said (in the future) that both balls in Rule 20.1c(3) and 14.7 situations are "in play provisionally" for the purpose of the Rules?  A similar thing could happen if a player were to hit a poor tee shot on a par 3 that might be lost, then hit a provisional ball onto the green.  While the player is searching for his original, another player in the group putts and his ball strikes the provisional.

Imo, "in play provisionally" for these situations is a cleaner outcome than waiting to see which ball was "in play" and whether any breach had occurred.

[antip]

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

Could it be said (in the future) that both balls in Rule 20.1c(3) and 14.7 situations are "in play provisionally" for the purpose of the Rules?  A similar thing could happen if a player were to hit a poor tee shot on a par 3 that might be lost, then hit a provisional ball onto the green.  While the player is searching for his original, another player in the group putts and his ball strikes the provisional.

Imo, "in play provisionally" for these situations is a cleaner outcome than waiting to see which ball was "in play" and whether any breach had occurred.

I agree this would be the simplest and cleanest approach and I would prefer to see RBs get to this point. It would require some refining of the words in the "in play" definition and clear recognition that both 20.1c(3) balls and both 14.7 balls are in play for the purposes of the rules. Ditto for provisional balls unless a trigger point for turning the PB into ball in play or wrong ball has occurred. Possibly RBs are discomfitted by the fact it would bring the possibility of additional penalties into play on the putting green, but I think the alternatives are much more complicated.

Edited March 23, 2022 by antip
Additional words added.

[Mr. Bean]

6 hours ago, antip said:

I agree this would be the simplest and cleanest approach and I would prefer to see RBs get to this point. It would require some refining of the words in the "in play" definition and clear recognition that both 20.1c(3) balls and both 14.7 balls are in play for the purposes of the rules. Ditto for provisional balls unless a trigger point for turning the PB into ball in play or wrong ball has occurred. Possibly RBs are discomfitted by the fact it would bring the possibility of additional penalties into play on the putting green, but I think the alternatives are much more complicated.

 

So, neither of the balls would be actually in play until it is decided which ball is to count and then potential penalties would be applied accordingly? How would that differ from the idea of both balls to be in play and potential penalties would be applied to the ball that counts, including potential penalties to other players?

 

Maybe I misunderstand something here.

 

Edited March 23, 2022 by Mr. Bean

[rogolf]

My suggestion is that a ball "in play provisionally" would be considered "in play" wrt to Rules like the Exception to 11.1a, and that penalty would apply to the other player regardless of which ball the Committee ultimately ruled would count.  "in play provisionally" is used only to avoid using "in play".

[jholz]

Holy crap, all I can say in any of these threads is that I'm glad I'm not a rules official. Kudos on you folks for being willing to expend the mental energy on this stuff. Not to directly quote Rudyard Kipling, but, "You are better human beings than I." 

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, rogolf said:

My suggestion is that a ball "in play provisionally" would be considered "in play" wrt to Rules like the Exception to 11.1a, and that penalty would apply to the other player regardless of which ball the Committee ultimately ruled would count.  "in play provisionally" is used only to avoid using "in play".

 

IMHO that would be contrary to the principle that penalties are only applied to a ball in play and there are a few Interpretations on that matter to exclude a player from a penalty on a provisional ball AND on the second ball played that was not to count.

 

It seems to me that Ruling Bodies have a real challenge in front of them with this issue.

[Mr. Bean]

2 hours ago, jholz said:

Holy crap, all I can say in any of these threads is that I'm glad I'm not a rules official. Kudos on you folks for being willing to expend the mental energy on this stuff. Not to directly quote Rudyard Kipling, but, "You are better human beings than I." 

 

Just to comfort you, those MGA questions are confronted on the course twice in 100 years. However, MGA have a tendency to raise issues that are not quite clear in the Rules and I like that. We can ponder over such issues on this forum indefinitively (Gee, I HATE the correct writing of English words!!!!) but cannot reach to a conclusion as the Rules do not give a clear answer.

 

I have done my share of simple quizzes with all the answers found in the Rules so once in a while this is just great excercise for the brain. Well, if correct writing of English words is not taken into account...

[jholz]

4 minutes ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

Just to comfort you, those MGA questions are confronted on the course twice in 100 years. However, MGA have a tendency to raise issues that are not quite clear in the Rules and I like that. We can ponder over such issues on this forum indefinitively (Gee, I HATE the correct writing of English words!!!!) but cannot reach to a conclusion as the Rules do not give a clear answer.

 

I have done my share of simple quizzes with all the answers found in the Rules so once in a while this is just great excercise for the brain. Well, if correct writing of English words is not taken into account...

 

Yeah, I can certainly see and understand all of that. The situations that they come up with in the MGA quizzes (at least what I know of them from this forum) are utterly preposterous.

 

But, if I were going to be a rules official for a tournament, I'd assume that something equally crazy could happen, and I'd feel the need to be prepared for it. It's golf, sure, but I take everything I do with deadly seriousness - and I appreciate anyone else who does so. It doesn't matter what the task at hand might be (within reason, of course). 

 

I suppose at the end of the day it's a matter of picking your poison. I like to worry about spelling and etymology. Others like to worry about the rules of golf. I'm not sure why one or the other appeals to a given person. I'm just glad that we, as a species, are diverse enough to cover the bases.  

 

Ultimately, I look at the rules of golf similarly to how I look at chess. I'm glad that others take an interest in it. I can completely respect the mental acuity it takes to do it well. But, at the end of the day, after about twelve moves I just want to sacrifice my queen and move myself into a checkmate position so I don't have to think about it anymore.

 

I wish I was a better person. 😀

[antip]

8 hours ago, Mr. Bean said:

 

So, neither of the balls would be actually in play until it is decided which ball is to count and then potential penalties would be applied accordingly? How would that differ from the idea of both balls to be in play and potential penalties would be applied to the ball that counts, including potential penalties to other players?

 

Maybe I misunderstand something here.

 

For the purpose of applying the rules, both are in play.

[Newby]

#17 C Rule 20.1c(3), Rule 11.1b Exception 2, Def. In Play

[TerpFangolfer]

On 3/23/2022 at 5:07 PM, antip said:

For the purpose of applying the rules, both are in play.

They apparently say the 2nd ball is not in play, no matter what ultimately happens with the ruling...like you said earlier,  some more clear language on this would be useful