Say the body was a robot and pivoted the same way each swing...

[teddyironboy]

...if you allowed your arms/wrists/hands to be passive, would they react the same way each swing?

[MK7Golf21]

1 hour ago, teddyironboy said:

...if you allowed your arms/wrists/hands to be passive, would they react the same way each swing?

 

your arms, wrists and hands will never be passive unless you were making a swing with no ball and left your arms dangling. When you put a ball down, your hand eye coordination is going to take over and try to make decent contact. 

 

It's the reason peoples practice swings look so different but the clubface is 45 degree's open where impact would normally be.

[teddyironboy]

Yea I agree with that. I mean more of if you aren't trying to manipulate your arms and let the reaction take over. And passive more like not letting arms activate in transition. Any squaring or even the "hit" feeling is just reacting to the pivot and the face.

 

My guess is it would be extremely consistent. It's just unconscious movement that's happening in a flash.

[MK7Golf21]

4 minutes ago, teddyironboy said:

Yea I agree with that. I mean more of if you aren't trying to manipulate your arms and let the reaction take over. And passive more like not letting arms activate in transition. Any squaring or even the "hit" feeling is just reacting to the pivot and the face.

 

My guess is it would be extremely consistent. It's just unconscious movement that's happening in a flash.

 

Just depends on the player, you need an elite level pivot for it to work at a high level and have the shots. Most am's are 15 handicaps who are watching GG and try to leave their hands up and just spin their right hip out from the top. 

 

Ashkay recently I watched him hit a few drivers and you could tell he was leaving his hands up and pivoting hard against it but he also has a crazy pivot and it has more strain on the body, imo. Resisting your arms and hands against your torso is putting all that much more stress on your torso/hip muscles and spine.

[MonteScheinblum]

I will quote/paraphrase Tiger

 

”Why would you want the arms and hands to be passive?”

 

Im sure Jones, Palmer, Nicklaus, Hagan, Watson (Bunba and Tom) and Mickelson would all agree.

 

Hogan wished he had multiple right hands. 
 

Body/pivot driven swing is mostly a long time myth purveyed because of a misinterpretation of things Hogan said.  Plus amateurs not realizing ground up is a certainty due to connection to the ground and gravity.  The feel they over use their arms or start with the arms perpetuates this myth.  

 

Nicklaus release from the top.

Woods feel like your arms fire

Rose stay closed and bring your arms and hands down

Garcia pull the club down with the arms and hands

Mciltoy pull the club down with the arms and hands

Mr. 58 pull the club down with the arms and release asap

Harringotn speed the arms and hands up and release as ealry as you can

Duval throw it with the right wrist.

 

 

[ALIF]

12 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I will quote/paraphrase Tiger

 

”Why would you want the arms and hands to be passive?”

 

Im sure Jones, Palmer, Nicklaus, Hagan, Watson (Bunba and Tom) and Mickelson would all agree.

 

Hogan wished he had multiple right hands. 
 

Body/pivot driven swing is mostly a long time myth purveyed because of a misinterpretation of things Hogan said.  Plus amateurs not realizing ground up is a certainty due to connection to the ground and gravity.  The feel they over use their arms or start with the arms perpetuates this myth.  

 

Nicklaus release from the top.

Woods feel like your arms fire

Rose stay closed and bring your arms and hands down

Garcia pull the club down with the arms and hands

Mciltoy pull the club down with the arms and hands

Mr. 58 pull the club down with the arms and release asap

Harringotn speed the arms and hands up and release as ealry as you can

Duval throw it with the right wrist.

 

 

So what you're saying is, the arms and hands are very important in the golf swing? What a novel idea! But doesn't that put too much timing into the swing? LOL!!! 🤣

[MonteScheinblum]

4 minutes ago, ALIF said:

So what you're saying is, the arms and hands are very important in the golf swing? What a novel idea! But doesn't that put too much timing into the swing? LOL!!! 🤣

It doesn’t happen much anymore but 10-15 years ago every other thread here was people searching for a pivot driven, “non-timing” base swing with a stable club face and nothing terrible like Phil’s flippy swing
 

Translation……show me a swing where I don’t ever have to practice and hit it like Hogan or Norman. 

[teddyironboy]

32 minutes ago, MK7Golf21 said:

 

Just depends on the player, you need an elite level pivot for it to work at a high level and have the shots. Most am's are 15 handicaps who are watching GG and try to leave their hands up and just spin their right hip out from the top. 

 

Ashkay recently I watched him hit a few drivers and you could tell he was leaving his hands up and pivoting hard against it but he also has a crazy pivot and it has more strain on the body, imo. Resisting your arms and hands against your torso is putting all that much more stress on your torso/hip muscles and spine.

 

I've definitely felt that tweak in my back when I try to resist to hard and keep raising my arms against the pivot. It's not necessary I don't think. Just a little resistance, like a feel of moving up an inch in transition.

 

 

2 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

I will quote/paraphrase Tiger

 

”Why would you want the arms and hands to be passive?”

 

Im sure Jones, Palmer, Nicklaus, Hagan, Watson (Bunba and Tom) and Mickelson would all agree.

 

Hogan wished he had multiple right hands. 
 

Body/pivot driven swing is mostly a long time myth purveyed because of a misinterpretation of things Hogan said.  Plus amateurs not realizing ground up is a certainty due to connection to the ground and gravity.  The feel they over use their arms or start with the arms perpetuates this myth.  

 

Nicklaus release from the top.

Woods feel like your arms fire

Rose stay closed and bring your arms and hands down

Garcia pull the club down with the arms and hands

Mciltoy pull the club down with the arms and hands

Mr. 58 pull the club down with the arms and release asap

Harringotn speed the arms and hands up and release as ealry as you can

Duval throw it with the right wrist.

 

 

 

What position would you say their arms are firing? What about for someone like Hovland/DJ? For decent "passive arm" swingers, I don't doubt they fire the arms, but I would guess P5. I think at that position if the body shallows the lead arms well, it's very tough for the wrists to overtake that momentum and overcook it. It's possible Hogan wishes he had 3 right hands because he knew they could never overtake the lead side. Or it could be due to his secret. It's just extremely easy to get too quick from the top, it's more of delaying that reaction until later. I think that the hitting at the ball feeling and squaring is a lot better and more consistent when letting your body's reactions do it than purposely doing it. 

[MonteScheinblum]

7 minutes ago, teddyironboy said:

 

I've definitely felt that tweak in my back when I try to resist to hard and keep raising my arms against the pivot. It's not necessary I don't think. Just a little resistance, like a feel of moving up an inch in transition.

 

 

 

What position would you say their arms are firing? What about for someone like Hovland/DJ? For decent "passive arm" swingers, I don't doubt they fire the arms, but I would guess P5. I think at that position if the body shallows the lead arms well, it's very tough for the wrists to overtake that momentum and overcook it. It's possible Hogan wishes he had 3 right hands because he knew they could never overtake the lead side. Or it could be due to his secret. It's just extremely easy to get too quick from the top, it's more of delaying that reaction until later. I think that the hitting at the ball feeling and squaring is a lot better and more consistent when letting your body's reactions do it than purposely doing it. 

The hips lead the arms in an elite swing by 20 milliseconds.  Blink of an eye is 333

 

Nearly all ams have trialing arms.  
 

It’s impossible to start a swing with the arms.

 

Whats misdiagnosed as arms starting is either shoulders spinning out or arms accelerating in the wrong direction.

 

Another EXTREMELY common issue is arms trailing BADLY.  Body stalls, arms takeover to catchup and it has both the look and feel of a swing that’s arm dominated.
 

The only people who can feel passive arms are the ones who learned to accelerate them on time when they were first learning and that’s a very small percentage. 

 

Getting quick from the top is from firing the shoulders or the backswing was so slow, the body had to rush to create speed.  A very common problem as most ams have backswings that are way slower than Ernie Els.

Do runners, soccer players and field goal kickers have passive arms?  As a matter of fact most are coached to use them more.

Edited August 8, 2023 by MonteScheinblum

[Chunkitgood]

The arms are not passive.  They resist the forces generated by the body and the reactive forces of the club in order to deliver the club in the correct way to the ball.

 

When the many great golfers said they had passive arms, it seems likely they meant they did not use their arms to generate power, which they relied on their bodies to do.  Even when Hogan said he wanted three right hands or whatever to hit the ball, he (IMO) may well have meant he was using his hands to resist the tendency of the club to rotate so as to  straighten the link between the left arm and the club too soon.

 

“The hips lead the arms….”

 

There you have it, the rest is detail.

[teddyironboy]

11 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

It doesn’t happen much anymore but 10-15 years ago every other thread here was people searching for a pivot driven, “non-timing” base swing with a stable club face and nothing terrible like Phil’s flippy swing
 

Translation……show me a swing where I don’t ever have to practice and hit it like Hogan or Norman. 

 

I would guess they weren't doing it correctly. It's not an easy swing to pull off, I feel like it requires some key moves. Not difficult moves individually, but can't miss a single one.

 

But let's just say the body and pivot was literally a robot. And was able to get the arms started in perfect position in transition. Do the arms/wrist/hands react the same way?

 

 

5 minutes ago, MonteScheinblum said:

The hips lead the arms in an elite swing by 20 milliseconds.  Blink of an eye is 333

 

Nearly all ams have trialing arms.  
 

It’s impossible to start a swing with the arms.

 

Whats misdiagnosed as arms starting is either shoulders spinning out or arms accelerating in the wrong direction.

 

Another EXTREMELY common issue is arms trailing BADLY.  Body stalls, arms takeover to catchup and it has both the look and feel of a swing that’s arm dominated.
 

The only people who can feel passive arms are the ones who learned to accelerate them on time when they were first learning and that’s a very small percentage. 
 

Do runners, soccer players and field goal kickers have passive arms?  As a matter of fact most are coached to use them more.

 

I feel like we might be not on the same page of trailing arms. Also don't really understand shoulders spinning out or arms in wrong direction. But I think ams have trailing arms but don't get their chests open on the downswing. In this "ideal pivot driven swing", the chest is definitely opening up properly. That's why the hips lead arms just by 20 milliseconds, they can't trail by too much if the chest is opening up too.

 

What about throwing a baseball? Always the body leading first and then the arms firing wherever P5 is in the throwing motion. I want to reiterate again, I'm not saying it's bad to fire later in the swing.

[teddyironboy]

https://www.youtube.com/@jchowngolf/search?query=slow arms

 

This guy explains it better than I could ever.

Edited August 8, 2023 by teddyironboy

[MonteScheinblum]

1 minute ago, teddyironboy said:

 

I would guess they weren't doing it correctly. It's not an easy swing to pull off, I feel like it requires some key moves. Not difficult moves individually, but can't miss a single one.

 

But let's just say the body and pivot was literally a robot. And was able to get the arms started in perfect position in transition. Do the arms/wrist/hands react the same way?

 

 

 

I feel like we might be not on the same page of trailing arms. Also don't really understand shoulders spinning out or arms in wrong direction. But I think ams have trailing arms but don't get their chests open on the downswing. In this "ideal pivot driven swing", the chest is definitely opening up properly. That's why the hips lead arms just by 20 milliseconds, they can't trail by too much if the chest is opening up too.

 

What about throwing a baseball? Always the body leading first and then the arms firing wherever P5 is in the throwing motion. I want to reiterate again, I'm not saying it's bad to fire later in the swing.

Pitchers are taught to stay closed as long as they can just like Jack and Justin Said.

 

Pitchers who learn to stay closed and release the right wrist are much better golfers than hitters who are taught to get open asap and hold the wrist angles.  
 

QB’s stay closed

kickers stay closed 

all good golfers

 

most ams gets shoulders open way too fast and have to stall out.

 

This hypothetical perfect robot pivot doesn’t exist because there are infinite body types that require different amounts of rotation to hit the ball solid.  Its why you see a wide range of rotation on the tour

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[teddyironboy]

Ah so these are OTT high handicappers that spin out shoulders is what you mean. I mean there’s a lot of things they’d have to fix to beforehand.

 

What my thinking of a player that gets his chest open is a Hovland/Niemann kind of swing. Can throw Hogan in there too.

 

And for robot example say perfect pivot for it’s matching body type. I’m not meaning one size fits all. If the pivot moves the arms correctly into P5, will the arms/wrists/hands react the same. (Also if your mind’s intention is the same). More a question about unconscious reaction.

[PracticeSwinger]

12 minutes ago, teddyironboy said:

 

What my thinking of a player that gets his chest open is a Hovland/Niemann kind of swing. Can throw Hogan in there too.

 

And for robot example say perfect pivot for it’s matching body type. I’m not meaning one size fits all. If the pivot moves the arms correctly into P5, will the arms/wrists/hands react the same. (Also if your mind’s intention is the same). More a question about unconscious reaction.

My 2 cents, take it for what it’s worth.

 

DJ / Hovland / Neimann hands and arms move faster from P4 to P5, relative to the ground and relative to their shoulder line, faster than yours and mine (and 99% of WRXers) ever will.

 

From the top, everything goes (we can’t feel differences in milliseconds) it’s just that in elite/great swings, all body parts move where they should and it creates a correct sequence - and since the arms/move faster from P4 to P5 than from P6 to P7 it feels like they are just going along for a ride at the bottom (since they’re still on your trail side at impact) - and if your moves /sequence is off, then you subconsciously make everything you can for your arms/hands to catch up to the ball; stall / flip : ‘handsy swing feel’

[virtuoso]

Hogan is arms down to P6 before shoulders get too open.

 

[MonteScheinblum]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

Hogan is arms down to P6 before shoulders get too open.

 

Great pic. I’m never trying to be snide or combative the OP in these kinds of threats.

 

I spend dozens of hours a week digging people out of a rat hole that got there with the arms versus pivot swing narrative. It’s a false dichotomy and a damaging narrative. Everything does its part in a good swing and it’s your job to find out where you’re any fission and rectify it.

 

The arm swing versus pivot swing debate, would be is ridiculous as having a nutrition versus exercise debate. You need a proper balance of both and overdoing one and neglecting the other at your own peril

[DShepley]

Okay....hear me out for a minute.  Keeping your hands up in transition is an 'active' motion because you are resisting gravity.  You can let your hands drop from the top of the swing without 'actively' pulling them.  This would qualify as 'passive'...let the weight of your arms and gravity do the work.  This could be done independent of spinning your shoulders open early and would feel very different than 'actively' pulling your hands and arms down.  So could you feel passive with your arms?  Certainly...will it work, maybe for some people as feels are individual.  Monte has a lot of anecdotal evidence to suggest it's a bad idea.  Personally, I sometimes fight a hit impulse from the top and I correct it by feeling passive in transition, my hands in particular. 

[MPStrat]

3 minutes ago, DShepley said:

Okay....hear me out for a minute.  Keeping your hands up in transition is an 'active' motion because you are resisting gravity.  You can let your hands drop from the top of the swing without 'actively' pulling them.  This would qualify as 'passive'...let the weight of your arms and gravity do the work.  This could be done independent of spinning your shoulders open early and would feel very different than 'actively' pulling your hands and arms down.  So could you feel passive with your arms?  Certainly...will it work, maybe for some people as feels are individual.  Monte has a lot of anecdotal evidence to suggest it's a bad idea.  Personally, I sometimes fight a hit impulse from the top and I correct it by feeling passive in transition, my hands in particular. 

Careful using the word gravity in a golf swing forum 😂 
 

This is a reasonable take. There is subtlety and nuance to these discussions and every case is different. Not to mention that people perceive and define backswing, transition, and downswing differently. Heck, some people skip transition altogether 😊 
 

The feeling of patient, passive or responsive arms and wrists is something that many golfers need and has helped many. 

[wagolfer7]

Say you had the legs of an elephant, hips of a cheetah and arms of a gorilla...

...do you think you could hit it further than Monte in 1992 form? 

 

Must be a slow week for golf content on YouTube 😜 

[virtuoso]

It’s a tricky thing to get right. The draggers and spinners set rotation in too early and then end up stalling abruptly anyway. The throwers go freelance from the pelvis too early and stall early but less abruptly.

 

The pelvis is the control center anatomically, and it needs to be displaced first and rotated later. If the order and the blend is correct, it’s much easier to sync it up to the swinging joints.

 

Per usual, Hogan is good to look at for the pelvis movements because he displaces it the right amount and doesn’t set in rotation too early, but once he sets it in, he is full tilt boogie. His pelvis movement loaded his left leg joints so they could later support and assist active torso rotation late, but super active and then stalling late.

 

Active Pelvis and shoulder rotation is critical but you only have one shot at it. Don’t start it too early, but once you do, go all in.

[MPStrat]

11 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

It’s a tricky thing to get right. The draggers and spinners set rotation in too early and then end up stalling abruptly anyway. The throwers go freelance from the pelvis too early and stall early but less abruptly.

 

The pelvis is the control center anatomically, and it needs to be displaced first and rotated later. If the order and the blend is correct, it’s much easier to sync it up to the swinging joints.

 

Per usual, Hogan is good to look at for the pelvis movements because he displaces it the right amount and doesn’t set in rotation too early, but once he sets it in, he is full tilt boogie. His pelvis movement loaded his left leg joints so they could later support and assist active torso rotation late, but super active and then stalling late.

 

Active Pelvis and shoulder rotation is critical but you only have one shot at it. Don’t start it too early, but once you do, go all in.

This is the kind of post that helps people. Well thought out, detailing both sides of the coin. 

[iacas]

5 hours ago, MonteScheinblum said:

Whats misdiagnosed as arms starting is either shoulders spinning out or arms accelerating in the wrong direction.

 

Bingo.

[teddyironboy]

8 hours ago, Varry_Hardon said:

My 2 cents, take it for what it’s worth.

 

DJ / Hovland / Neimann hands and arms move faster from P4 to P5, relative to the ground and relative to their shoulder line, faster than yours and mine (and 99% of WRXers) ever will.

 

From the top, everything goes (we can’t feel differences in milliseconds) it’s just that in elite/great swings, all body parts move where they should and it creates a correct sequence - and since the arms/move faster from P4 to P5 than from P6 to P7 it feels like they are just going along for a ride at the bottom (since they’re still on your trail side at impact) - and if your moves /sequence is off, then you subconsciously make everything you can for your arms/hands to catch up to the ball; stall / flip : ‘handsy swing feel’

 

I compare the arms to shoulder angles at P5.8: https://imgur.com/a/z1bLedN

 

The "pure rotation" guys (DJ/Hovland/Niemann) have arms that are trailing a little further back than the other guys by this position. Their right arm is pretty much a right angle (or more in DJ's case) to the shoulder line, whereas the other guys are more ahead. And they're definitely not actively lowering their arms too much because of how bent their right arms are at impact. Also can't get their follow through - where the arms shoot up high and around - if arms are ahead of the body. At least for Hovland and Niemann (and Hogan too), not sure what's going on with DJ's follow through.

 

  

5 hours ago, MPStrat said:

Careful using the word gravity in a golf swing forum 😂 
 

This is a reasonable take. There is subtlety and nuance to these discussions and every case is different. Not to mention that people perceive and define backswing, transition, and downswing differently. Heck, some people skip transition altogether 😊 
 

The feeling of patient, passive or responsive arms and wrists is something that many golfers need and has helped many. 

 

I agree, I think this is a tough discussion to have because there's some misunderstanding of what each other mean. And I probably have not been the most clear.

 

I do think the arms/wrist/hands play a role and are actively doing something. Use the body to get the arms in a good position and then let the reaction take over. I think we'll always want to hit at the ball, it's a matter of controlling when that response comes. And I'm still wondering if that response will react the same each way lol.

I looked at some of Monte's content, and he talks of getting the left arm off the chest fast a lot. I've seen it mentioned around here too. I actually first interpreted it as actively firing the arms as soon as possible from the top. But in thinking about it more, when left shoulder gets internal it comes off the chest. And as the body rotates open as it gets closer to hitting the ball, the left tricep gets further from the chest. What is the correct interpretation? Personally for my swing I obviously believe in passive and trailing arms but my left arm is coming off my chest - there's no chance I can hold a glove in there. And that's just strictly from shallowing and opening my chest. Again when I'm talking about passive arms, it's with the assumption that everything else is in place.

Edited August 9, 2023 by teddyironboy

[RoyalTroon]

13 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Hogan is arms down to P6 before shoulders get too open.

 

 

Almost like staying away from the golf...

 

 

 

 

 

[virtuoso]

15 hours ago, teddyironboy said:

Ah so these are OTT high handicappers that spin out shoulders is what you mean. I mean there’s a lot of things they’d have to fix to beforehand.

 

What my thinking of a player that gets his chest open is a Hovland/Niemann kind of swing. Can throw Hogan in there too.

 

And for robot example say perfect pivot for it’s matching body type. I’m not meaning one size fits all. If the pivot moves the arms correctly into P5, will the arms/wrists/hands react the same. (Also if your mind’s intention is the same). More a question about unconscious reaction.

I would guess that you’re not really looking for passive arms per se. Even if you were creating a stretch across the system during the tranny, your arms would be actively holding back against being pulled down during the initial downswing pivot motion. 
 

That’s the stretch-shorten cycle which is way over taught, and then the dude jackknifes at the bottom too soon in the shorten phase.

 

I think what you’re really looking for is a smooth transfer of movement from the pivot to the arms where is no slack along the flow as each segment is energized in the chain. When there is no slack in that flow, it “feels” that the arms are passive to those that want to feel that, and ironically it also feels that the arms can’t get out of sync to those that want to feel like they are swinging their arms freely. So, the key is no slack.

 

But the problem is when the club changes direction during the transition. That is the hardest phase to keep the slack out, when the club makes a u-turn. It can be really confusing because if you have a number of good players that have a tour level tranny, some will tell you they just let gravity bring their arms down, some will say they are holding their arms back, some will say the are pushing the handle longitudinally away from the target, some will say the let their left arm sink into their chest, and some will say they are springing their left arm off their chest…..so they are all exactly right and perhaps technically wrong at the same time. And the listener has no chance.

[MPStrat]

Keep this is mind too.. hands on the trail thigh at p6 does nothing to guarantee great ball striking. You can get to this spot and hit it terrible. You can have weak glancing contact from there. You can compress the heck out of the ball without getting to that position. But that’s the whole thing, its a position in a 2d still frame. This is one of those positions that amateurs desperately want, but as Manzella highlighted, your average club champion doesn’t get there. I need to know more about the individual golf swing to decide the importance of this position.  

[teddyironboy]

5 hours ago, virtuoso said:

I would guess that you’re not really looking for passive arms per se. Even if you were creating a stretch across the system during the tranny, your arms would be actively holding back against being pulled down during the initial downswing pivot motion. 
 

That’s the stretch-shorten cycle which is way over taught, and then the dude jackknifes at the bottom too soon in the shorten phase.

 

I think what you’re really looking for is a smooth transfer of movement from the pivot to the arms where is no slack along the flow as each segment is energized in the chain. When there is no slack in that flow, it “feels” that the arms are passive to those that want to feel that, and ironically it also feels that the arms can’t get out of sync to those that want to feel like they are swinging their arms freely. So, the key is no slack.

 

But the problem is when the club changes direction during the transition. That is the hardest phase to keep the slack out, when the club makes a u-turn. It can be really confusing because if you have a number of good players that have a tour level tranny, some will tell you they just let gravity bring their arms down, some will say they are holding their arms back, some will say the are pushing the handle longitudinally away from the target, some will say the let their left arm sink into their chest, and some will say they are springing their left arm off their chest…..so they are all exactly right and perhaps technically wrong at the same time. And the listener has no chance.

 

Yes I think smooth transfer sounds better. I can see feels being vastly different. At least for me I need to feel a little lag in order to have a smooth-looking sequence in the downswing.

 

 

 

Also I just posted this in another thread:

Quote

I think the more accurate idea would be arms should lag/stretch behind chest as much as possible, and then chest should be behind, but not too far behind the hips. Off the top of my head I think it was like hips should be ~45° open at impact and chest ~30° open (although depends on how much tilt you have). That is a LONG ways for the chest to go. At the top of the backswing it's about ~45° closed for hips and 90° closed for chest. That means the chest has to make up 120° by the time you get to impact, whereas hips 90°. So you really need to fire that chest open in transition or else you'll be closed out. But I think it could be good to let the arms lag relative to the chest in transition.

It's very hard to get the chest too open by the time impact happens. I'm not talking about high handicap OTT spinning out the shoulder moves, though it is an "OTT from the inside" move. And I think firing the chest open in transition has to be part of this style of swing. Otherwise there's just no way to get the chest open at impact. But I do feel the arms have to lag relative to the chest all the way through transition and maybe even a bit more.

[virtuoso]

2 hours ago, teddyironboy said:

 

Yes I think smooth transfer sounds better. I can see feels being vastly different. At least for me I need to feel a little lag in order to have a smooth-looking sequence in the downswing.

 

 

 

Also I just posted this in another thread:

It's very hard to get the chest too open by the time impact happens. I'm not talking about high handicap OTT spinning out the shoulder moves, though it is an "OTT from the inside" move. And I think firing the chest open in transition has to be part of this style of swing. Otherwise there's just no way to get the chest open at impact. But I do feel the arms have to lag relative to the chest all the way through transition and maybe even a bit more.

If you hesitate rotation early so that you can get enough push down on the left foot, you can then use that advantage to cover a lot of rotational ground during the impact and exit phase. However, if you are going about it like you describe, you will be way over-rotated, way too early. Maybe you have enough youth, flexibility and strength to keep trucking with the rotation through the shot, but you are still going to be an over-spun mess......and it's not going to give you a more "stable" clubface.

[teddyironboy]

8 hours ago, virtuoso said:

If you hesitate rotation early so that you can get enough push down on the left foot, you can then use that advantage to cover a lot of rotational ground during the impact and exit phase. However, if you are going about it like you describe, you will be way over-rotated, way too early. Maybe you have enough youth, flexibility and strength to keep trucking with the rotation through the shot, but you are still going to be an over-spun mess......and it's not going to give you a more "stable" clubface.

 

Where are you recommending to hesitate rotation early? You mean like focusing on the weight shift to the front foot first before rotating the hips? Kind of like the feel when lifting the left heel and stomping it down in transition?