Hogan's 5 lessons, Lesson 2 "Stance and Posture"

[avrag]

Difficulty with recommended position of elbows - please help

I have to admit that I read "Five Lessons" for the first time now, quite some years after I started to play golf. A mistake for sure, but anyway. Halfway through "Lesson 2" I encountered the first point that is completely contradictory to everything I have ever been taught. It is about the position of the elbows, or to be more precise, the way the forearms should be rotated at adress. Mr Hogan writes that the elbows should be pressed together as closely as possible, with the points of the elbows pointing at the respective hipbones and (and this is mindboggling for me) "THE POCKETS FACING TOWARDS THE SKY". There is also an illustration in the book that shows that potition.
Now, all I have ever been taught was to let the arms hang naturally from the shoulders and then take your grip, which (for me) leads to the pockets of the elbow joints facing each other, which is something Mr Hogan says you have to avoid. They don't face each other 100%, but they certainly do so more than they point away from my body or upward, as is suggested in the book.
Now, I have tried to get into this kind of setup position with my arms a few dozen times now (haven't hit a shot so far, as it is pouring and cold outside), and it feels extremly uncomfortable for me. I feel a lot of tension in my forearms and my shoulders have to be really hunched to get into this kind of position. Maybe it has to do with the fact that my shoulders and chest are rather wide, whereas my arms are rather short, I don't know.
But is this really the best position to be in at address? I am sure it helps the cause of working with both arms as a unit and to keep them close to the chest throughout the swing. But what if this address positions feels really awkward? Should I still go on with it until it feels natural, or can it be tweaked somewhat?
Slicefixer promotes the importance of the correct grip and setup posture very strongly (especially when it comes to his famous 9 to 3 drill), is this the way to do it, no matter how unnatural it feels?
I would really appreciate any thoughts and advice.
Thank you.

[Shaitan]

wow, i haven't read that book but my "pockets" do face the sky - but mind i'm the complete opposite build, long arms and narrow chest. Thinking about it during the swing makes my left arm stick a bit better to my body - testifying that i'm still slightly out of sink - maybe i should get this book haha

 

Edit: I like that point about being stiff and Darius's point - its something i think you have to be relaxed with and if u turn properly they'll stay close, and if u are struggling with being out of synch its something good to remember

[Dariusz J.]

Avrag, there are a few things in the book that Mr.Hogan recommends to do which are not present in his real swing (such as e.g. the image you desribed). Remember that his book was not aimed at describing HIS OWN PERFECT SWING, but it was a guide for all kind of golfers.

With the image of both arms tied together Hogan wanted an average golfer to ingrain a proper takeaway and force to use body turn. Beginners usually suffer with a arm swing without a proper pivot, because they think that arms are the most important power generator. It leads to many swing flaws as e.g. being off-plane, flying elbow, OTT, and even some downswing flaws, etc. If such a beginner tries to keep his elbows together (as pictured in the book) he simply has to use his body turn in order to complete the backswing (and, consequently, in the downswing).

A golfer who understands the importance of the body turn does not need to concentrate on elbows being tied together and usually has them in a nice relaxed position, just as Mr.Hogan had in his real swing.

 

Your post is a good one since many people thinks that Hogan's book spoiled more swings than improved. I personally think that "Five Lessons" should be subtitled "for advanced golfers only" and, thus, some ideas should be taken out of the book. Ideally, Mr Hogan should write "Five Lessons for Beginners" and "Five Lessons for Advanced Golfers". The concept of having all possible explanations in one instructional book is like an utopia. Mr.Hogan wanted to do his best, but a reader must be aware of the phenomenon I have just pointed out.

 

My 2 eurocents, cheers.

[mainegolfa]

I hear ya avrag. I find that having either elbow point JUST outside the hips on either side is the way to go (for me anyway). if the pockets of your arms are facing eachother, then you'll be hard pressed to get the club on plane, IMHO. A proper grip goes a long way for positioning the arms correctly at address. IMHO, it sounds like your hands are too much on top of the club (left hand too strong, right hand too weak). if you have the palms facing each other correctly, hitting this position shouldn't be too difficult. Although I'm not sure how your build would affect this, seems like broader shoulders and shorter arms would make this more difficult. Just my guess......good luck.

[slicefixer]

Maine is correct.......you don't have to "jam" your elbows in so that they are pointing directly at the hip sockets.......it should just happen when you grip it correctly, etc.

[slicefixer]

Avrag, there are a few things in the book that Mr.Hogan recommends to do which are not present in his real swing (such as e.g. the image you desribed). Remember that his book was not aimed at describing HIS OWN PERFECT SWING, but it was a guide for all kind of golfers.

With the image of both arms tied together Hogan wanted an average golfer to ingrain a proper takeaway and force to use body turn. Beginners usually suffer with a arm swing without a proper pivot, because they think that arms are the most important power generator. It leads to many swing flaws as e.g. being off-plane, flying elbow, OTT, and even some downswing flaws, etc. If such a beginner tries to keep his elbows together (as pictured in the book) he simply has to use his body turn in order to complete the backswing (and, consequently, in the downswing).

A golfer who understands the importance of the body turn does not need to concentrate on elbows being tied together and usually has them in a nice relaxed position, just as Mr.Hogan had in his real swing.

 

Your post is a good one since many people thinks that Hogan's book spoiled more swings than improved. I personally think that "Five Lessons" should be subtitled "for advanced golfers only" and, thus, some ideas should be taken out of the book. Ideally, Mr Hogan should write "Five Lessons for Beginners" and "Five Lessons for Advanced Golfers". The concept of having all possible explanations in one instructional book is like an utopia. Mr.Hogan wanted to do his best, but a reader must be aware of the phenomenon I have just pointed out.

 

My 2 eurocents, cheers.

 

 

Well said, 5 Lessons really requires an "interpreter"......LOTS of FANTASTIC info/ideas within it, but, LOTS of contradictions too.......I didn't really understand it till I read Hebron's book and THEN went back and re-read 5 Lessons while studying LOTS of Hogan footage........then "fact from fiction" was easily discernable........:)

[bheck23]

Avrag, there are a few things in the book that Mr.Hogan recommends to do which are not present in his real swing (such as e.g. the image you desribed). Remember that his book was not aimed at describing HIS OWN PERFECT SWING, but it was a guide for all kind of golfers.

With the image of both arms tied together Hogan wanted an average golfer to ingrain a proper takeaway and force to use body turn. Beginners usually suffer with a arm swing without a proper pivot, because they think that arms are the most important power generator. It leads to many swing flaws as e.g. being off-plane, flying elbow, OTT, and even some downswing flaws, etc. If such a beginner tries to keep his elbows together (as pictured in the book) he simply has to use his body turn in order to complete the backswing (and, consequently, in the downswing).

A golfer who understands the importance of the body turn does not need to concentrate on elbows being tied together and usually has them in a nice relaxed position, just as Mr.Hogan had in his real swing.

 

Your post is a good one since many people thinks that Hogan's book spoiled more swings than improved. I personally think that "Five Lessons" should be subtitled "for advanced golfers only" and, thus, some ideas should be taken out of the book. Ideally, Mr Hogan should write "Five Lessons for Beginners" and "Five Lessons for Advanced Golfers". The concept of having all possible explanations in one instructional book is like an utopia. Mr.Hogan wanted to do his best, but a reader must be aware of the phenomenon I have just pointed out.

 

My 2 eurocents, cheers.

 

 

Well said, 5 Lessons really requires an "interpreter"......LOTS of FANTASTIC info/ideas within it, but, LOTS of contradictions too.......I didn't really understand it till I read Hebron's book and THEN went back and re-read 5 Lessons while studying LOTS of Hogan footage........then "fact from fiction" was easily discernable........ :)

 

Slice what is the name of that Hebron's book and you are probably going to laugh but did you ever read The Secret of Hogan's Swing by Tom Bertrand. I just was wondering what your thoughts on it are. Thanks

[avrag]

Thanks for the advice, everybody.

I've been working on a stronger grip lately, which of course makes this "open forearm position" as I would call it, a little bit more difficult for the left arm, but easier for the right.

I'll try to get into a position as close as possible to the suggestion, but still trying to be as relaxed as I can be. That should do it.

Now I only have to get rid of the Leadbetter "Trigger finger" thought. :) It has helped me in the past avoiding slices with the driver, but of course, it means "flipping".

It is funny to swing with the right thumb and index finger completely off the grip, as Mr. Hogan suggests. Certainly gives me a whole different feeling of controlling the club.

And: Practicing by just taking my grip and stance over and over again in front of a mirror adds a whole new dimension to the meaning of the word "practice".

[slicefixer]

Avrag, there are a few things in the book that Mr.Hogan recommends to do which are not present in his real swing (such as e.g. the image you desribed). Remember that his book was not aimed at describing HIS OWN PERFECT SWING, but it was a guide for all kind of golfers.

With the image of both arms tied together Hogan wanted an average golfer to ingrain a proper takeaway and force to use body turn. Beginners usually suffer with a arm swing without a proper pivot, because they think that arms are the most important power generator. It leads to many swing flaws as e.g. being off-plane, flying elbow, OTT, and even some downswing flaws, etc. If such a beginner tries to keep his elbows together (as pictured in the book) he simply has to use his body turn in order to complete the backswing (and, consequently, in the downswing).

A golfer who understands the importance of the body turn does not need to concentrate on elbows being tied together and usually has them in a nice relaxed position, just as Mr.Hogan had in his real swing.

 

Your post is a good one since many people thinks that Hogan's book spoiled more swings than improved. I personally think that "Five Lessons" should be subtitled "for advanced golfers only" and, thus, some ideas should be taken out of the book. Ideally, Mr Hogan should write "Five Lessons for Beginners" and "Five Lessons for Advanced Golfers". The concept of having all possible explanations in one instructional book is like an utopia. Mr.Hogan wanted to do his best, but a reader must be aware of the phenomenon I have just pointed out.

 

My 2 eurocents, cheers.

 

 

Well said, 5 Lessons really requires an "interpreter"......LOTS of FANTASTIC info/ideas within it, but, LOTS of contradictions too.......I didn't really understand it till I read Hebron's book and THEN went back and re-read 5 Lessons while studying LOTS of Hogan footage........then "fact from fiction" was easily discernable........ :)

 

Slice what is the name of that Hebron's book and you are probably going to laugh but did you ever read The Secret of Hogan's Swing by Tom Bertrand. I just was wondering what your thoughts on it are. Thanks

 

 

 

"See and FEEL the INSIDE MOVE the OUTSIDE"........I have the original from the mid 80's or so.......it REALLY helped ME to understand how swinging a golf club was very similar to a LOT other sports, etc. It's a great book IMOP.........now, I haven't read the revised versions so I'm not referring to em'.......but, I would imagine the core of the book hasn't changed much, if at all........I haven't read Tom's book, but, HF has and as I trust his judgement/knowledge with the best of em' and he's filled me on on the gist.........plus Tom's posted here numerous times and I've read em' all........and responded to most.........I think he's a fine teacher and 100% SINCERE in his beliefs whether I agree or not with em'.......I do need to read the book myself, but, I've just not had time to do so.......just swamped......gonna' have to cut back on the stuff here as a result........

[thefuture37]

Avrag, there are a few things in the book that Mr.Hogan recommends to do which are not present in his real swing (such as e.g. the image you desribed). Remember that his book was not aimed at describing HIS OWN PERFECT SWING, but it was a guide for all kind of golfers.

With the image of both arms tied together Hogan wanted an average golfer to ingrain a proper takeaway and force to use body turn. Beginners usually suffer with a arm swing without a proper pivot, because they think that arms are the most important power generator. It leads to many swing flaws as e.g. being off-plane, flying elbow, OTT, and even some downswing flaws, etc. If such a beginner tries to keep his elbows together (as pictured in the book) he simply has to use his body turn in order to complete the backswing (and, consequently, in the downswing).

A golfer who understands the importance of the body turn does not need to concentrate on elbows being tied together and usually has them in a nice relaxed position, just as Mr.Hogan had in his real swing.

 

Your post is a good one since many people thinks that Hogan's book spoiled more swings than improved. I personally think that "Five Lessons" should be subtitled "for advanced golfers only" and, thus, some ideas should be taken out of the book. Ideally, Mr Hogan should write "Five Lessons for Beginners" and "Five Lessons for Advanced Golfers". The concept of having all possible explanations in one instructional book is like an utopia. Mr.Hogan wanted to do his best, but a reader must be aware of the phenomenon I have just pointed out.

 

My 2 eurocents, cheers.

 

So you don't believe the information in Tom Bertrand's book? He claims that Hogan personally stressed the arms as close together as possible to John Schlee. There was also something about Hogan saying that he didn't have his arms that close together in his swing because his injuries prevented it. Hogan also (allegedly) said "why would you want to swing like a cripple"(referring to himself).

 

If that info is true, then what was written in 5 Lessons was what Hogan thought the perfect golf swing should be in theory, for anyone not just a beginner. Whether or not all of his ideas work in reality(at least for most people) is another story. However, the idea that just because an idea in his book doesn't work for an individual golfer, or isn't seen in many(or any) pro swings(including Hogan's), doesn't necessarily mean what he wrote wasn't what he meant.

 

Until someone has proof that Hogan didn't mean all of what he wrote(again this doesn't include because he didn't swing that way), then I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that one of the two books that he put his name on represented his true swing theory. Vasquez's book tells of how Hogan refused to write the introduction(or something like that) for Faldo's book because he had never done one for an American player. I'm sure Hogan read his own books several times before he let them be published.

[Dariusz J.]

So you don't believe the information in Tom Bertrand's book? He claims that Hogan personally stressed the arms as close together as possible to John Schlee. There was also something about Hogan saying that he didn't have his arms that close together in his swing because his injuries prevented it. Hogan also (allegedly) said "why would you want to swing like a cripple"(referring to himself).

 

If that info is true, then what was written in 5 Lessons was what Hogan thought the perfect golf swing should be in theory, for anyone not just a beginner. Whether or not all of his ideas work in reality(at least for most people) is another story. However, the idea that just because an idea in his book doesn't work for an individual golfer, or isn't seen in many(or any) pro swings(including Hogan's), doesn't necessarily mean what he wrote wasn't what he meant.

 

Until someone has proof that Hogan didn't mean all of what he wrote(again this doesn't include because he didn't swing that way), then I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that one of the two books that he put his name on represented his true swing theory. Vasquez's book tells of how Hogan refused to write the introduction(or something like that) for Faldo's book because he had never done one for an American player. I'm sure Hogan read his own books several times before he let them be published.

 

TF, I do believe that Hogan wanted to write an instructional book for everyone. I believe that he mentioned the "tied elbows" concept just because he saw too many arms swings; I believe he mentioned the "elastic tape" that is sticked only to the left hip (instead to the whole left side of the body), because he saw too many OTT swings, too many slicers, etc., etc.

I agree to SliceFixer that the "Five Lessons" book needs a knowledgable interpreter.

Of course, it is only my belief. Mr.Hogan is dead and we can only speculate, as you said.

 

BTW, are you sure that he said "why would you want to swing like a cripple" referring to this exact problem of distance between elbows during the swing ? I thought he said it referring to his huge hip slide at the end of the backswing...

 

Cheers

[avrag]

If that info is true, then what was written in 5 Lessons was what Hogan thought the perfect golf swing should be in theory, for anyone not just a beginner. Whether or not all of his ideas work in reality(at least for most people) is another story. However, the idea that just because an idea in his book doesn't work for an individual golfer, or isn't seen in many(or any) pro swings(including Hogan's), doesn't necessarily mean what he wrote wasn't what he meant.

 

Until someone has proof that Hogan didn't mean all of what he wrote(again this doesn't include because he didn't swing that way), then I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that one of the two books that he put his name on represented his true swing theory. Vasquez's book tells of how Hogan refused to write the introduction(or something like that) for Faldo's book because he had never done one for an American player. I'm sure Hogan read his own books several times before he let them be published.

 

I have to agree. I am a judge in real life. That's my profession. So I am used to try to make myself s clear as possible, whenever I write a text (decision). What really strikes me when reading "Five Lessons" is how obvious it is, that it is written by someone who wants to make himself clear, very clear. The author (or the mastermind behind him) weighs his words painstakingly and goes to great lengths in trying to make his point. In a way, that's what makes this book so special for me. I don't believe it is the perfect recipy, but (aside from Harvey Penick's Little Red Book) I have nor read anything about the golf swing that has that quality of logic combined with simplicity.

[frozen_rope]

Hogan's book has wrecked more golfers than anything else in the game.

 

Get Tiger Woods "How I play Golf". It has large color photos of address posture (and grip).

 

I have to admit that I read "Five Lessons" for the first time now, quite some years after I started to play golf. A mistake for sure, but anyway. Halfway through "Lesson 2" I encountered the first point that is completely contradictory to everything I have ever been taught. It is about the position of the elbows, or to be more precise, the way the forearms should be rotated at adress. Mr Hogan writes that the elbows should be pressed together as closely as possible, with the points of the elbows pointing at the respective hipbones and (and this is mindboggling for me) "THE POCKETS FACING TOWARDS THE SKY". There is also an illustration in the book that shows that potition.

Now, all I have ever been taught was to let the arms hang naturally from the shoulders and then take your grip, which (for me) leads to the pockets of the elbow joints facing each other, which is something Mr Hogan says you have to avoid. They don't face each other 100%, but they certainly do so more than they point away from my body or upward, as is suggested in the book.

Now, I have tried to get into this kind of setup position with my arms a few dozen times now (haven't hit a shot so far, as it is pouring and cold outside), and it feels extremly uncomfortable for me. I feel a lot of tension in my forearms and my shoulders have to be really hunched to get into this kind of position. Maybe it has to do with the fact that my shoulders and chest are rather wide, whereas my arms are rather short, I don't know.

But is this really the best position to be in at address? I am sure it helps the cause of working with both arms as a unit and to keep them close to the chest throughout the swing. But what if this address positions feels really awkward? Should I still go on with it until it feels natural, or can it be tweaked somewhat?

Slicefixer promotes the importance of the correct grip and setup posture very strongly (especially when it comes to his famous 9 to 3 drill), is this the way to do it, no matter how unnatural it feels?

I would really appreciate any thoughts and advice.

Thank you.

[slicefixer]

If that info is true, then what was written in 5 Lessons was what Hogan thought the perfect golf swing should be in theory, for anyone not just a beginner. Whether or not all of his ideas work in reality(at least for most people) is another story. However, the idea that just because an idea in his book doesn't work for an individual golfer, or isn't seen in many(or any) pro swings(including Hogan's), doesn't necessarily mean what he wrote wasn't what he meant.

 

Until someone has proof that Hogan didn't mean all of what he wrote(again this doesn't include because he didn't swing that way), then I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that one of the two books that he put his name on represented his true swing theory. Vasquez's book tells of how Hogan refused to write the introduction(or something like that) for Faldo's book because he had never done one for an American player. I'm sure Hogan read his own books several times before he let them be published.

 

I have to agree. I am a judge in real life. That's my profession. So I am used to try to make myself s clear as possible, whenever I write a text (decision). What really strikes me when reading "Five Lessons" is how obvious it is, that it is written by someone who wants to make himself clear, very clear. The author (or the mastermind behind him) weighs his words painstakingly and goes to great lengths in trying to make his point. In a way, that's what makes this book so special for me. I don't believe it is the perfect recipy, but (aside from Harvey Penick's Little Red Book) I have nor read anything about the golf swing that has that quality of logic combined with simplicity.

 

 

Yes, BUT, Mr. Hogan did NOT have access to SLOW MOTION from ALL angles........IF he had then he'd have no doubt noticed the differences between his written words and what he was actually DOING in reality......and there ARE differences......and they are obvious........and some of them occur throughout his careeer, both before and after the 49' car wreck.......PLUS, it's VERY hard to put into words in a way that accurately DESCRIBES a physical motion........too much is determined by the playrs FEEL/images and sometimes BOTH are simply DEAD WRONG......oldest cliche' on tour practice tees, "feel is RARELY real".......and it's 100% true....... :)

[slicefixer]

So you don't believe the information in Tom Bertrand's book? He claims that Hogan personally stressed the arms as close together as possible to John Schlee. There was also something about Hogan saying that he didn't have his arms that close together in his swing because his injuries prevented it. Hogan also (allegedly) said "why would you want to swing like a cripple"(referring to himself).

 

If that info is true, then what was written in 5 Lessons was what Hogan thought the perfect golf swing should be in theory, for anyone not just a beginner. Whether or not all of his ideas work in reality(at least for most people) is another story. However, the idea that just because an idea in his book doesn't work for an individual golfer, or isn't seen in many(or any) pro swings(including Hogan's), doesn't necessarily mean what he wrote wasn't what he meant.

 

Until someone has proof that Hogan didn't mean all of what he wrote(again this doesn't include because he didn't swing that way), then I'll give him the benefit of the doubt that one of the two books that he put his name on represented his true swing theory. Vasquez's book tells of how Hogan refused to write the introduction(or something like that) for Faldo's book because he had never done one for an American player. I'm sure Hogan read his own books several times before he let them be published.

 

TF, I do believe that Hogan wanted to write an instructional book for everyone. I believe that he mentioned the "tied elbows" concept just because he saw too many arms swings; I believe he mentioned the "elastic tape" that is sticked only to the left hip (instead to the whole left side of the body), because he saw too many OTT swings, too many slicers, etc., etc.

I agree to SliceFixer that the "Five Lessons" book needs a knowledgable interpreter.

Of course, it is only my belief. Mr.Hogan is dead and we can only speculate, as you said.

 

BTW, are you sure that he said "why would you want to swing like a cripple" referring to this exact problem of distance between elbows during the swing ? I thought he said it referring to his huge hip slide at the end of the backswing...

 

Cheers

 

To the best of MY memory, the "cripple" comment had nothing to do with the elbows, but, was in reference to the "CG shift".......but I can't find my copy of Maximum Golf so somebody who does ("lake") needs to go back and do a power scan to see the actual meaning of the comment......... :)

[avrag]

Well, after trying this setup position on the range now for the first time, I have to admit:

Mr. Hogan was right.

Setting up this way helps tremendously with keeping the arms connected to the body and to each other throughout the swing. I could create power with very little effort and hit the ball solidly time after time. It also puts my left wrist in a position so that I do not have the problems with too much strain on my left forearm and left elbow at impact anymore. I had that and I feared I was on my way to tendonitis, when I first started hitting the ball really solidly and compressing it correctly thanks to Slicefixer's 9 to 3 drill. Also, making sure of the setup like Hogan describes it produces a really good preshot routine for me.

The only thing though: I will never change to the overlapping grip. It just isn't stable enough for me, due to my short fingers.

I think it is all about getting some input from different perspectives and then trying out and deciding what works best. Right now, I am eagerly awaiting the start of the real golfing season araound here.

[slicefixer]

Well, after trying this setup position on the range now for the first time, I have to admit:

Mr. Hogan was right.

Setting up this way helps tremendously with keeping the arms connected to the body and to each other throughout the swing. I could create power with very little effort and hit the ball solidly time after time. It also puts my left wrist in a position so that I do not have the problems with too much strain on my left forearm and left elbow at impact anymore. I had that and I feared I was on my way to tendonitis, when I first started hitting the ball really solidly and compressing it correctly thanks to Slicefixer's 9 to 3 drill. Also, making sure of the setup like Hogan describes it produces a really good preshot routine for me.

The only thing though: I will never change to the overlapping grip. It just isn't stable enough for me, due to my short fingers.

I think it is all about getting some input from different perspectives and then trying out and deciding what works best. Right now, I am eagerly awaiting the start of the real golfing season araound here.

 

 

 

hehehehe........that's why I always type SET UP in capitals.......can make or break some and will ALWAYS influence how you swing a golf club........basically ya' got 2 choices.........SET UP correctly so as to set up a simple PIVOT and armswing.......OR........setting up poorly, getting behind the proverbial 8 ball BEFORE you even take the club back, and then TRYING to OVERcome the poor set up during the swing motion itself.....(can be done but ALWAYS "complicates" the motion).......Given the choice (which we are), WHY set up poorly and make the swing itself MORE complicated to ingrain and replicate.......like diggin' a "hole" BEFORE you take the club back.......NO matter WHAT swing method you choose there WILL be a SET UP that makes the swing easier to ingrain and MUCH easier to reproduce..........IMOP.......:man_in_love:

[Lake]

To the best of MY memory, the "cripple" comment had nothing to do with the elbows, but, was in reference to the "CG shift".......but I can't find my copy of Maximum Golf so somebody who does ("lake") needs to go back and do a power scan to see the actual meaning of the comment......... :)

 

Slice,

 

I've read it twice looking for that darn phrase and it is not in "Maximum Golf." :man_in_love: ;) However, I googled the phrase and found this from Tom Bertrand:

I was recently asked by a gentleman, named Steve from the UK, about Ben Hogan's lateral slide in the downswing, because it remains a niggle to him, and what my thoughts were on the subject. I thought it was a great question and decided it needed to be in print.

 

Ben Hogan never did slide his hips in the downswing, period. He slid before the downswing.

 

You might say, "Huh?"

 

You see Hogan had a 3-part swing. He had a backswing, a set, and then the downswing. The "set" was his positioning of the hips before the downswing started.

 

Let me back up a little.

 

Why would Ben Hogan slide to set his hips? Didn't he say we should "spin the hips" and the faster the better? Yes, but because of his bus accident, he (not everyone else) had to make an adjustment. Hogan advocated minimal lateral motion for the golf swing but couldn't do it himself, because of the pain it created in his left side. He set up with a little more weight on his right side at address, and on the backswing would load against the right leg.

 

Stay with me now.

 

As he was still making his move back the lower body would start moving toward the target to position the base of his spine just in front of the ball. (this is the set) Why? Because the base of your spine is the bottom of your arc and in a proper golf swing you connect with the ball just before the bottom and on a typical iron shot a divot would follow. It is a timing move and Hogan found it needed constant practice to perfect, and if he took off even one day of practice he would lose his edge. He felt it unnecessary for most golfers and tried to emphasize the proper motion of the spin with little lateral movement whenever asked. But most people just wanted to watch him swing and not listen to his words. That's why he told John Schlee not to copy his swing, and in Hogan's own words said, "Why would anyone want to swing like a cripple."

 

Once he positioned his torso just ahead of the ball, he tried to spin his hips as fast as he could.

 

Load - Position - Spin

 

So there you have it. Ben Hogan's 3-part swing. If you didn't know it or understand it, now you do!

 

Tom Bertrand is the new leading authority on Ben Hogan and author of the new book,"The Secret of Hogan's Swing". He teaches the game of golf at Olympic Resort Hotel in Carlsbad California.

[dfvxc]

Lake,

but what about 5 lessons pg 90: "TURN YOUR HIPS BACK TO THE LEFT. THERE MUST BE ENOUGH LATERAL MOTION TO TRANSFER THE WEIGHT TO THE LEFT FOOT."

 

Are we sure the "cripple" quote is in regards to the lateral hip motion?

[slicefixer]

Lake,

but what about 5 lessons pg 90: "TURN YOUR HIPS BACK TO THE LEFT. THERE MUST BE ENOUGH LATERAL MOTION TO TRANSFER THE WEIGHT TO THE LEFT FOOT."

 

Are we sure the "cripple" quote is in regards to the lateral hip motion?

 

 

Yes.........you read and understand Sclee's stuff and you'll have NO doubt that's exactly what's referenced......... :man_in_love: Thanks for lookin' Lake.......it's been 20 years since I read Maximum Golf and I can't trust my memory beyond about 10 minutes.......;)

[Lake]

Lake,

but what about 5 lessons pg 90: "TURN YOUR HIPS BACK TO THE LEFT. THERE MUST BE ENOUGH LATERAL MOTION TO TRANSFER THE WEIGHT TO THE LEFT FOOT."

 

Are we sure the "cripple" quote is in regards to the lateral hip motion?

 

dfvxc,

 

Mr. Hogan never played in more than 7 events per year after 50' so there must of been some pain, IMOP walking a lot & not so much swinging....however....Mr. Hogan had one of the most dynamic swings pre/post accident that I have ever seen.

 

I try not to get caught up in debating what people think or feel they do in their swing. When a player like Mr. Hogan or John Schlee go into this or that about their swing I enjoy the banter but I don't really start focusing until I see their motion. I tend to look at swings with a checklist broken into different components and their relationships ..... "let mechanics produce and feel reproduce." If you know what you are doing it makes those first few holes easier to manage while waiting on feel to kick-in the auto-pilot.

 

Good vid of Hogan's lower body :man_in_love: http://www.medicusgolfinstitute.com/forum/...read.php?t=3144

 

lake

[dfvxc]

slicefixer:

Oh lol I didn't realize that the whole segment was a direct quote of bertrand's book. edit*No wonder it felt like dejavu..*edit

I did flip through it at the bookstore.. I should prbly get it.

 

lake: that was a great response and a fine point, thanks.

[Lake]

slicefixer:

Oh lol I didn't realize that the whole segment was a direct quote of bertrand's book. edit*No wonder it felt like dejavu..*edit

I did flip through it at the bookstore.. I should prbly get it.

 

lake: that was a great response and a fine point, thanks.

 

That post is now italicized for better clarification....sorry about that.....welcome to the forum by the way :man_in_love:

[slicefixer]

Lake,

but what about 5 lessons pg 90: "TURN YOUR HIPS BACK TO THE LEFT. THERE MUST BE ENOUGH LATERAL MOTION TO TRANSFER THE WEIGHT TO THE LEFT FOOT."

 

Are we sure the "cripple" quote is in regards to the lateral hip motion?

 

dfvxc,

 

Mr. Hogan never played in more than 7 events per year after 50' so there must of been some pain, IMOP walking a lot & not so much swinging....however....Mr. Hogan had one of the most dynamic swings pre/post accident that I have ever seen.

 

I try not to get caught up in debating what people think or feel they do in their swing. When a player like Mr. Hogan or John Schlee go into this or that about their swing I enjoy the banter but I don't really start focusing until I see their motion. I tend to look at swings with a checklist broken into different components and their relationships ..... "let mechanics produce and feel reproduce." If you know what you are doing it makes those first few holes easier to manage while waiting on feel to kick-in the auto-pilot.

 

Good vid of Hogan's lower body :man_in_love: http://www.medicusgolfinstitute.com/forum/...read.php?t=3144

 

lake

 

Excellent post lake.......

 

As for Mr. Hogan, there was OBVIOUSLY a LOT of pain........he sorta' limped around in his older years.......but, when ya' placed a golf club in his hands the lightbulb turned on and it was like he was transported into another body......;) :)

[TheWoat]

Hogan's book has wrecked more golfers than anything else in the game.

 

Get Tiger Woods "How I play Golf". It has large color photos of address posture (and grip).

 

 

Could you give some detail on that? Im interested in reading some criticisms of "5 Lessons"

[dfvxc]

slicefixer:

Oh lol I didn't realize that the whole segment was a direct quote of bertrand's book. edit*No wonder it felt like dejavu..*edit

I did flip through it at the bookstore.. I should prbly get it.

 

lake: that was a great response and a fine point, thanks.

 

That post is now italicized for better clarification....sorry about that.....welcome to the forum by the way :man_in_love:

 

Thanks lake! ;)

 

Man I gotta be careful, great forums with great members are crazily addictive, and my grades suffer.