Passive Release vs Active Release

[Shaitan]

i was being knitpicky but the reason being is that radius is scalar and displacement is a vector, and the equation doesn't work unless it is a vector (as it is a vector multiplication) :cheesy: :cheesy:

 

This is what crazy high school math does to u hehe - enjoy the debate, i'm off to school

[stevestrike]

Passive Release vs Active Release, Which generates more speed?

Do you really expect to get an unbiased opinion on this board?

 

Every poster seems to fall all over himself for a one-plane, hogan-esq, or "rotary" type swing. Slicefixer and others are revered around here. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but this is like asking your grandmother who the best kid in the world is... The other kids don't stand a chance.

[dfvxc]

Good on you Shaitan.

I wish I hadn't been so lazy to take the easier maths in highschool. nobody f****** told me that I could get college credits from them........

 

stevestrike, umm I believe a lot of ppl including me said they think there's more power in the active release...do u expect to get an unbiased opinion on the internet? or anywhere for that matter? omg they're all biased so we shouldn't ask anything.

[stevestrike]

Not really, you had to say "a (little?) bit more", but that the rotary is "MUCH" more consistent, and "basically hits itself"

 

Yes, there are biases everywhere, I said so and you demonstrated as much in your post.

[Swingtheclub]

Not really, you had to say "a (little?) bit more", but that the rotary is "MUCH" more consistent, and "basically hits itself"

 

Yes, there are biases everywhere, I said so and you demonstrated as much in your post.

 

 

Steve its nice to know I am not the only one that visits here that does not belong to Hogans church of the I shall not hook by rotating my core.

[dfvxc]

"Steve its nice to know I am not the only one that visits here that does not belong to Hogans church of the I shall not hook by rotating my core."

 

LOL! hey, I was a never a hooker before, but now my shots draw with the rotary swing and I hold neutral, I pronate the wrist at the top.. etc. and am now a hooker!

 

admittedly I need a lie adjustment...

[Swingtheclub]

You pronate your wrist at the top of your swing .

 

Ok which hand do you pronate and which hand do you supinate?

[dfvxc]

At the top? I pronate the left and supinate the right

at impact left is supinated and right is pronated.

 

I should have said I *cupped* left wrist at the top so the clubface is opened

[stevestrike]

Steve its nice to know I am not the only one that visits here that does not belong to Hogans church of the I shall not hook by rotating my core.

I think that side of things is very underrepresented on this forum--or perhaps they don't post as often. I do not, because I don't enjoy being at the bottom of a dogpile! :cheesy: Look, I've got nothing again Slice/HogaFan/et al... in fact they were extremely nice in helping me out in a previous swing post I made a few months ago--many people here have taken time out to help others. I'm glad what they teach seems to help people here.

 

Maybe I'm jealous that I don't have this super-easy "it swings itself" kind of swing--I don't know. I do know that there's more than one way to skin a cat, and if the rotary swing is working for you, then that's great; but it does get tiring hearing the two-plane active release getting bashed over and over again.

 

Me? I have to turn down my forearms through impact, and let the right side overtake the left. Yeah, it can be a b**** to get right, but when it does.... man it's sweet, like 280 with a 3-wood sweet. (carry + roll)

 

(alright and it was downwind!)

[jaridyard]

The angular momentum of a moving particle is

 

L = mv⊥r

 

where m is its mass, v⊥ is the component of its velocity vector perpendicular to the line joining it to the axis of rotation, and r is its distance from the axis. Positive and negative signs are used to describe opposite directions of rotation.

 

Magnitude without direction is scalar, magnitude with direction is a vector.

 

Is angular momentum a vector, or a scalar? It does have a direction in space, but it's a direction of rotation, not a straight-line direction like the directions of vectors such as velocity or force. For this example it is working in a single plain of rotation, effectively 2 dimensional.

 

That said, the algebraic component of biomechanics was never my strongest point, it's the things you did so long ago that give you trouble!

 

Back to OP, yes there will be a biased opinion on this board. It's a positive reflection on the ability of instructors on here to offer explanation of their theories.

 

Theoretically an active release would when timed impeccably produce more clubhead speed, any mistiming however would slow the system. So in the practical environment for the majority of golfers a feeling of a more passive release is more reliable. You can't force physics.

[dfw1500]

Steve its nice to know I am not the only one that visits here that does not belong to Hogans church of the I shall not hook by rotating my core.

I think that side of things is very underrepresented on this forum--or perhaps they don't post as often. I do not, because I don't enjoy being at the bottom of a dogpile! :cheesy: Look, I've got nothing again Slice/HogaFan/et al... in fact they were extremely nice in helping me out in a previous swing post I made a few months ago--many people here have taken time out to help others. I'm glad what they teach seems to help people here.

 

Maybe I'm jealous that I don't have this super-easy "it swings itself" kind of swing--I don't know. I do know that there's more than one way to skin a cat, and if the rotary swing is working for you, then that's great; but it does get tiring hearing the two-plane active release getting bashed over and over again.

 

Me? I have to turn down my forearms through impact, and let the right side overtake the left. Yeah, it can be a b**** to get right, but when it does.... man it's sweet, like 280 with a 3-wood sweet. (carry + roll)

 

(alright and it was downwind!)

 

The two plane active release is not being bashed over and over again as if this works for you then that is good.....what people are saying id that this type of release can and will work very well when timed perfectly but when the timing is off this release makes hitting the ball straight and solid a real problem and can cause the dreaded 1 way miss and therefore is not as reliable on a day to day basis.....if the timing is on though the active hands turn the toe down release will perform just as well as the PHYSICS passive release and will be long and straight but under pressure this release can make the clubhead be too active in the impact area and cause accuracy problems.

 

People are not beeting it down as if this works for you then it is great people are just stating which is easier to replicate on a consistent basis.

[TEConnor]

Passive Release vs Active Release, Which generates more speed?

Do you really expect to get an unbiased opinion on this board?

 

Every poster seems to fall all over himself for a one-plane, hogan-esq, or "rotary" type swing. Slicefixer and others are revered around here. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but this is like asking your grandmother who the best kid in the world is... The other kids don't stand a chance.

 

Are you suggesting that we start a new forum: "Steve and Ken talk Flipping!" :cheesy: I kid.

 

What do they say about the newly converted? I'm one of those. I hate, hate, hate flipping. JUST DISPISE IT. I will dogpile on the flip every chance I get. :cheesy:

 

Here's why: in my honest, most objective opinion about my golf career, the FLIP has held me back. When pressure mounted, my miss was always left, way left. How does OB left three holes in a row sound? How about OB left on the final three holes to lose by 1 in match play of your State Am?

 

Cheers,

Tim

[Swingtheclub]

[

 

People are not beeting it down as if this works for you then it is great people are just stating which is easier to replicate on a consistent basis.

 

My point being I totally disagree that it is easier. Or that its a flip in the first part.

 

 

Passive Release vs Active Release, Which generates more speed?

Do you really expect to get an unbiased opinion on this board?

 

Every poster seems to fall all over himself for a one-plane, hogan-esq, or "rotary" type swing. Slicefixer and others are revered around here. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but this is like asking your grandmother who the best kid in the world is... The other kids don't stand a chance.

 

Are you suggesting that we start a new forum: "Steve and Ken talk Flipping!" :cheesy: I kid.

 

What do they say about the newly converted? I'm one of those. I hate, hate, hate flipping. JUST DISPISE IT. I will dogpile on the flip every chance I get. :cheesy:

 

Here's why: in my honest, most objective opinion about my golf career, the FLIP has held me back. When pressure mounted, my miss was always left, way left. How does OB left three holes in a row sound? How about OB left on the final three holes to lose by 1 in match play of your State Am?

 

Cheers,

Tim

 

 

I can not talk flipping because I do not believe I flip.

 

Honestly this thread has gone overboard off topic. When I have sometime maybe I will post some ideas of why I think you guys are bashing the proper way to swing with your anti hook Hogan move. In a new thread.

 

But I do not think it is what this thread was about and I am sorry if I helped get it so far off topic.

[trapsmv15]

Ken,

 

How would you describe accomplishing the release you make? I [was/am/considering continuing] an upright swinger but was never really good at it.

[stevestrike]

I was going to post the same thing as Ken--it's not "flipping". Flipping is a swing flaw, not a release. Flipping means that your clubhead passes your hands through the ball in order to square the clubface (from a face on view).

[PurePursuit]

Ken you have been talking about posting your swing thoughts for a while now, I can't take the suspense anymore take a day off and lets hear it hehe :cheesy: Honestly I'm interested.

[Dariusz J.]

I was going to post the same thing as Ken--it's not "flipping". Flipping is a swing flaw, not a release. Flipping means that your clubhead passes your hands through the ball in order to square the clubface (from a face on view).

 

 

Of course "flipping" is, first of all, a swing flaw and not a release - in the sense of spooning the ball. IMHO, the whole thread discuss wrong terms - there is no "passive" and "active" release. There are 3 kinds of releases, push, slap-hinge and crossover (in Henry Cotton's terms). Each of them has active and passive elements depending on the motion of human body parts (wrists, forearms, body turn).

 

BTW, neither push or crossover are natural releases. "Flipping" motion is natural and most powerful one - that's why so many golfers struggle with it. Has anyone seen a beginner who is trying to hit ball with a bowed left wrist or crossover of forearms at impact ? Zero chances, IMO. That's why the slap-hinge release (we can call it a well-timed flip) is the most natural wrist motion while one wants to hit and raise to the air a small object (ball) with another object (club). The other two releases rely on an understanding what is the role of the loft of the club as well as their goal is, among others, to hit down on the ball with most clubs - which is completely against a common sense.

 

 

 

Cheers

[dfw1500]

My point to Ken is it is not easier for you to perform as you have always flipped through the shot and your mind and your body are familiar with this type of release and rotary release holding onto the angles is strange to you........what I was stating is that the rotary release is easier to replicate when under pressure BUT is not necessarily easier to change to when you have either flipped or stalled and cross over released the club.....I know this as I was a stall the core release the arms turn the toe down for a long long time I would hit it awesome some days and could shoot the lights out when everything worked well but would struggle with a HUGE block when the timing was off.....the rotary release gives you much more control of the club and is squared by the most reliable source of all the body.

 

I agree with what you are saying with your regards to release Dariusz but the push type of release is done from the pulling action of the left side of the body and holding onto and maintaing the angles created going back this when done via rotation of the body feels like a passive release of the golf club and feels like you are trapping the ball against the turf due to maintaning the the angles and the leverage.

[Swingtheclub]

My point to Ken is it is not easier for you to perform as you have always flipped through the shot and your mind and your body are familiar with this type of release and rotary release holding onto the angles is strange to you........what I was stating is that the rotary release is easier to replicate when under pressure BUT is not necessarily easier to change to when you have either flipped or stalled and cross over released the club.....I know this as I was a stall the core release the arms turn the toe down for a long long time I would hit it awesome some days and could shoot the lights out when everything worked well but would struggle with a HUGE block when the timing was off.....the rotary release gives you much more control of the club and is squared by the most reliable source of all the body.

 

I agree with what you are saying with your regards to release Dariusz but the push type of release is done from the pulling action of the left side of the body and holding onto and maintaing the angles created going back this when done via rotation of the body feels like a passive release of the golf club and feels like you are trapping the ball against the turf due to maintaning the the angles and the leverage.

 

wow first let me say again I do not believe I flip stall or any of that garbage. I do believe that the only time I overly rotate my core is when I want to hit a big cut. I also do it sometimes when I am trying to increase spin on a short wedge shot.

 

The simple thing I do is turn square the club at the top turn again and let the club square itself again at the bottom. All the time maintaining my posture and keeping my arms extended and the club in front of me. I try and do a circle on the a tilted plane and do the exact same things on both sides . In my backswing my left arm is straight and in my follow thru my right arm is. My finish position is a duplication of my backswing position . Just one big circle no thoughts of stalling of flipping or swinging the club to right field. Just a very simple circle that I keep the club square in.

 

Its really that simple (There you go shag that probably explains it in print about as good as I can()

 

My swing holds up well under pressure because I am not fighting any bad things from happening.

 

I am able to still strike it well without practicing because its so simple.

 

 

What I do not like about the rotary swing is most of them are too flat and in a shut position and have to rotate very hard to square the club. Why this is considered easier I have no idea.

 

Ok now I have managed to get back off topic but I felt I needed to answer as I got the feeling people thought I was avoiding it.

[PurePursuit]

Ken what your describing is very similar to a rotary type golf swing...not all rotary swings are overly flat or shut at the top...Check out clips of Hunter Mahan.

[Swingtheclub]

Ken what your describing is very similar to a rotary type golf swing...not all rotary swings are overly flat or shut at the top...Check out clips of Hunter Mahan.

 

the difference being I believe in keeping the club in front of me and I believe that I swing the club with my hands and arms and the body joins in not that my body swing my arms and hands.

 

Check my avatar out that follow thru should be the duplicate of my backswing position both are a tad lower these days but its a perfect circle

[pocketfulladoubles]

Here I go....

 

The angular momentum of a moving particle is

 

L = mv⊥r

 

When a golfer is swinging, there is very little friction between the arms/club and the air, so they are essentially a closed system, and angular momentum is conserved. If they pull the head of the club in (head is closer to the axis of rotation through wrist set), they are decreasing r for all the atoms in the system. It would violate conservation of angular momentum if the system then continued rotating at the same speed, i.e., taking the same amount of time for each revolution, because the clubs negative contribution to angular momentum would have decreased, and no other part would have increased its angular momentum. This is impossible because it would violate conservation of angular momentum. If total angular momentum is to remain constant, the decrease in r for the clubhead must be compensated for by an overall increase in the rate of rotation. That is, by setting and retaining wrist set, they substantially reduce the time for each rotation.

 

So, fundamentally the shortening of the radius of swing through wrist set and in all longer hitters an increase in wrist set on the downswing increases the rotational speed of the body when no other torques are acting upon it.

 

A combination of centrifugal force, a ficticious but highly useful layman term (from the centre of body rotation to the outside of the system, not just the club/arm lever) and tangential force (acting perpendicular to the shaft) release the clubhead without the need for an 'active release'.

 

Ahhhhh, in response to the OP, all things being equal an 'active' release is unlikely to increase total velocity.

 

Centripetal force only acts to keep hold of the club, difficult to say that its adds a great deal. Newton's 3rd Law.

 

 

Everything you said is correct, but the model is a bit more complicated in the fact that we're not looking at rigid body mechanics. This is a modal problem with distributed spring-mass (and even some damping). Yes, energy and momentum is being conserved, but the impact velocity (and therefore transferred momentum) is dependant on the method of loading and releasing.