Winter Rules Question

DaveLeeNC · April 7, 2009

Hopefully we can now address the question that was asked (which is NOT a ROG question and NOT about proper procedures as defined in 7-1. It is about how judgements are made regarding preferred lies and course conditions).

dave

I answered. If we're playing golf, we play it down. If we're just screwing around, I don't care what you do.

-mini

Yeah - right. You were trying to be helpful (rather than making your own unhelpful point). Yeah - sure.

dave
I see. You didn't really want someone to tell you how they do it. You just wanted someone to agree with you and you didn't get that. I understand now.

-mini

Agree w/me?? Agree w/what??

I just want to understand how clubs that make a transition from winter to summer rules decide when to do that. I don't know how my question could have been more clear.

dave

Dave...

Politely, you won't find a section in the Rules of Golf that covers "winter rules." It doesn't exist. If your club has "Local Rules", then they need to provide the parameters of when and how.

Try out section 7-1 in the handicap manual. "The Commitee" is the organization that SHOULD be making the decision. "The Committee" means many things depending on the context. Within 7-1 is a speciman local rule.

dave

DavePelz4 · April 7, 2009

Try out section 7-1 in the handicap manual. "The Commitee" is the organization that SHOULD be making the decision. "The Committee" means many things depending on the context. Within 7-1 is a speciman local rule.

dave

Dave...

You're spot on. The Committee can make any local rule at any time. Each is individual based upon what they are trying to accomplish or protect. That's why the suggestion was to contact your Committee as they are the only ones that can detail their "winter rules" or whatever rules they're designating.

DaveLeeNC · April 7, 2009

Try out section 7-1 in the handicap manual. "The Commitee" is the organization that SHOULD be making the decision. "The Committee" means many things depending on the context. Within 7-1 is a speciman local rule.

dave

Dave...

You're spot on. The Committee can make any local rule at any time. Each is individual based upon what they are trying to accomplish or protect. That's why the suggestion was to contact your Committee as they are the only ones that can detail their "winter rules" or whatever rules they're designating.

Yep - and this whole discussion revolves around our weekly Men's Golf Association competitions run by the MGA Board of which I am a member. And we are looking for input as to how to make a reasonable decision that is somewhat better than "so-and-so thinks".

I do believe that this is called a "full circle". :-)

dave

DavePelz4 · April 7, 2009

Try out section 7-1 in the handicap manual. "The Commitee" is the organization that SHOULD be making the decision. "The Committee" means many things depending on the context. Within 7-1 is a speciman local rule.

dave

Dave...

You're spot on. The Committee can make any local rule at any time. Each is individual based upon what they are trying to accomplish or protect. That's why the suggestion was to contact your Committee as they are the only ones that can detail their "winter rules" or whatever rules they're designating.

Yep - and this whole discussion revolves around our weekly Men's Golf Association competitions run by the MGA Board of which I am a member. And we are looking for input as to how to make a reasonable decision that is somewhat better than "so-and-so thinks".

I do believe that this is called a "full circle". :-)

dave

Dave...

Having run a few events myself experience says whatever you choose to do is going to make 50% of the people PO'd regardless. Under that scenario, do what you think is right and fair and expect the criticism.

Not sure you're going to find much better opinions but I hope so. Sounds like you're trying to do your best...

PingG10 · April 8, 2009

Try out section 7-1 in the handicap manual. "The Commitee" is the organization that SHOULD be making the decision. "The Committee" means many things depending on the context. Within 7-1 is a speciman local rule.

dave

Dave...

You're spot on. The Committee can make any local rule at any time. Each is individual based upon what they are trying to accomplish or protect. That's why the suggestion was to contact your Committee as they are the only ones that can detail their "winter rules" or whatever rules they're designating.

Yep - and this whole discussion revolves around our weekly Men's Golf Association competitions run by the MGA Board of which I am a member. And we are looking for input as to how to make a reasonable decision that is somewhat better than "so-and-so thinks".

I do believe that this is called a "full circle". :-)

dave

Our committee (such as it is) generally makes the decision on when to suspend winter rules based on three characteristics-is there a high probability that there will not be a need to use temporary greens due to frost/snow/ice on regular greens, are the fairways generally acceptable-dry enough, minimal standing water, ruts, mud, properly mowed, etc and are the greens in generally acceptable condition.

Of course we have a suspended posting season up here-so we have local rules that allow for "preferred lies"-our groups, as a general rule, suspend this practice as soon as posting season opens-regardless of whether or not the course has suspended winter rules. There are exceptions (temporary greens being one).

DaveLeeNC · April 8, 2009

Try out section 7-1 in the handicap manual. "The Commitee" is the organization that SHOULD be making the decision. "The Committee" means many things depending on the context. Within 7-1 is a speciman local rule.

dave

Dave...

You're spot on. The Committee can make any local rule at any time. Each is individual based upon what they are trying to accomplish or protect. That's why the suggestion was to contact your Committee as they are the only ones that can detail their "winter rules" or whatever rules they're designating.

Yep - and this whole discussion revolves around our weekly Men's Golf Association competitions run by the MGA Board of which I am a member. And we are looking for input as to how to make a reasonable decision that is somewhat better than "so-and-so thinks".

I do believe that this is called a "full circle". :-)

dave

Our committee (such as it is) generally makes the decision on when to suspend winter rules based on three characteristics-is there a high probability that there will not be a need to use temporary greens due to frost/snow/ice on regular greens, are the fairways generally acceptable-dry enough, minimal standing water, ruts, mud, properly mowed, etc and are the greens in generally acceptable condition.

Of course we have a suspended posting season up here-so we have local rules that allow for "preferred lies"-our groups, as a general rule, suspend this practice as soon as posting season opens-regardless of whether or not the course has suspended winter rules. There are exceptions (temporary greens being one).

Thanks - I guess that our situation is not the norm here. You truly could make a good case for no winter rules at all except on really wet/sloppy days. You could easily play 18 holes without encountering a single, really bad fairway lie.

OTOH, what they have done is to scalp the bermuda fairways last fall down to literally nothing (bermuda is totally dormant from late fall to mid-spring). The overseeding is really pretty light (which is helpful when the bermuda recovers in the spring). So while in your 18 holes you might not encounter any really bad fairway lies, it is quite likely that every lie that you encounter is basically playing off hardpan. The high handicappers in particular really struggle off these lies. The chances of your ball ending on rye in a lie that you would call a good lie is very small, but you can always find one.

Back in 2004 they did not overseed No. 2 prior to the 2005 US Open. I was astounded at how much easier No. 2 fairways played all winter that year vs. the other courses.

dave

DaveLeeNC · April 13, 2009

For completeness this is what is going to happen. What brings to a head is that ...

1) This has been an exceptionally difficult winter from an overseeded fairways perspective. Basically the overseeding (while making things greener) also made things more difficult far in excess of previous years (the rye comes up spotty and mostly just makes little "tea cups" for the ball to sit inside). The underlying bermuda has been scalped to within a micro-inch of its life.

2) This week (and next) is our Men's Golf Association match play tournament which is more important and also creates "T scores" in our handicap database. So we've got additional pressure in "both directions" regarding how to play this tournament.

So two of us have gone out (or will go out) on 3 holes of the relevant courses and will do the following.

1) We will pick the driver landing area and throw out a dozen balls. Then we (both having similar games with good, but not exceptional drives in the 240-250 yard range, and mid to high single digit indexes) will look at the lies from the following perspective. Assume that we wanted to hit a 3w second shot from those lies on a par 5 and were facing a forced carry of 165 yards (3w carry for both of us is 205-215 yards from fairway lies, a tad more off a tee). Would we change clubs?

2) Throw out a dozen balls in areas 5 to 30 yards in front of the greens. Then assume that we wanted to hit 'soft LW'es' of 20 or so yards from those lies. Not "Phil M. full swing, slide the club under the ball, wide open face, only carry it 20 yard shots', but slightly open face, a little soft/higher than normal LW shots. Again the criteria was would we be able to do this or have to change our desired strategy because of the lie.

We'll average the two and if the 'change clubs' answer comes up change 1/3 or more of the time, it is lift/clean/place.

So Tuesday's competition on course No. 6 is play it down. Wednesday play on No. 5 is to be evaluated this afternoon. Given the forecast (1-3 inches of rain overnight and more rain possible on Tuesday) we might be playing lift/clean/place regardless.

dave