Winter Rules Question

[DaveLeeNC]

What goes into determing change to 'real golf'

Is there anyone here with experience in a rational process for determining when to change to 'summer rules'. Here in NC our fairways are Bermuda (which is still 98% dormant) with overseeded rye in the winter. This was not a good year for the ryegrass, and even in good years the level of overseeding is really more to give the fairways a green look from an oblique angle than anything else.

Right now the fairways are probably less playable than any time in the last 6 months because the old rye is very patchy and and really just creates low places for the ball to rest rather than creating playable lies. Of course the dormant bermuda, to allow the rye to grow, is almost scalped to the ground level. The fairways would be much more playable right now if they had never been overseeded at all (but they would also be dirt brown, of course).

So I'm fishing around for experience in how other clubs make this determination. In principle this would be a decision made by club maintenance or the head pro, but since the members complained so much in the past about the correctness of the decision they abdicated this to us.

Thanks.

dave

[SadTrombone]

Are we playing golf or are we just screwing around on a golf course?

 

If we're playing golf, we play it down.

 

-mini

[frozen_rope]

"Winter Rules" is cheating no matter what time of year.

 

The Rules of Golf does allow casual water relief and embedded ball relief. Those two rules are adequate to help the player when course conditions are wet from rain.

 

Other than casual water or embedded ball, play the ball as it lies. Anything else is cheating.

 

Is there anyone here with experience in a rational process for determining when to change to 'summer rules'. Here in NC our fairways are Bermuda (which is still 98% dormant) with overseeded rye in the winter. This was not a good year for the ryegrass, and even in good years the level of overseeding is really more to give the fairways a green look from an oblique angle than anything else.

 

Right now the fairways are probably less playable than any time in the last 6 months because the old rye is very patchy and and really just creates low places for the ball to rest rather than creating playable lies. Of course the dormant bermuda, to allow the rye to grow, is almost scalped to the ground level. The fairways would be much more playable right now if they had never been overseeded at all (but they would also be dirt brown, of course).

 

So I'm fishing around for experience in how other clubs make this determination. In principle this would be a decision made by club maintenance or the head pro, but since the members complained so much in the past about the correctness of the decision they abdicated this to us.

 

Thanks.

 

dave

[Simp]

It definitely depends on what condition the fairways are in, but I think ultimately it is left up to the Superintendent or Greens Committee as for when to start playing Sumer Rules. Our fairways aren't in the greatest shape now and we're rolling them.

[kylesilk]

There is no such thing as winter rules

[JLTD63]

"Winter Rules" is cheating no matter what time of year.

 

The Rules of Golf does allow casual water relief and embedded ball relief. Those two rules are adequate to help the player when course conditions are wet from rain.

 

Other than casual water or embedded ball, play the ball as it lies. Anything else is cheating.

 

 

Wowza...we got a tough guy in our midst!! :black eye:

 

Yes, The Rules of Golf allow relief from casual water or an embedded ball. And yes, those rules are adequate to allow a golf course to be playable when conditions are wet from rain.

 

I wonder if you're from a warm-weather climate? When you get the odd round in while playing in a cold-weather climate during February, and the first few rounds in the spring, course conditions can closely resemble, well, a cow pasture. Dead from winterkill, etc. I've got no problem playing it down, but sometimes it gets frustrating trying to hit from mud, especially when your game may not be at it's best due to a long, golf-less winter.

 

To the OP...my group quits bumping as soon as the mowers are out, which was a good while ago, even here in Utah.

 

Most early-season UGA tournaments around here even play "Lift, Clean, and Place" in the fairway until about mid-April. Course conditions can be pretty nasty early on.

[DaveLeeNC]

I am well aware of the fact that the ROG have no definition of "winter rules", "lift/clean/place", "preferred lies", etc. I am also aware that the USGA Handicap Manual clearly accepts these as realities of the golf world (see section 7-1) and no less than the PGA Tour will play preferred lies under some conditions.

 

Hopefully we can now address the question that was asked (which is NOT a ROG question and NOT about proper procedures as defined in 7-1. It is about how judgements are made regarding preferred lies and course conditions).

 

dave

[D'KRUSHER]

So, all you guys whom say no such thing as winter rules....

that means your playing a sloppy/winter skins match , announced - OK to clean your mud balls, you won't ? ! Yeh, Right !

 

Now, for recording your scores for index... that's another thing.

[SadTrombone]

Hopefully we can now address the question that was asked (which is NOT a ROG question and NOT about proper procedures as defined in 7-1. It is about how judgements are made regarding preferred lies and course conditions).

 

dave

 

I answered. If we're playing golf, we play it down. If we're just screwing around, I don't care what you do.

 

-mini

[DaveLeeNC]

"Winter Rules" is cheating no matter what time of year.

 

The Rules of Golf does allow casual water relief and embedded ball relief. Those two rules are adequate to help the player when course conditions are wet from rain.

 

Other than casual water or embedded ball, play the ball as it lies. Anything else is cheating.

 

I hope that your team-mates are of above average tolerance and basically nice guys. While you are proudly displaying your holier-than-thou attitude, hitting ball-after-ball out of all manner of crappy lies, they are getting screwed by your refusal to play by the same rules as the rest of the field in the compeition.

 

dave

[madpebs]

wow, tough guys on the rules of golf... Here in Md with dormant bermuda we roll in fairway , down in rough. Everyone has the same option , in the blitz , So it's fair as far as i'm concerned. Get this BOYZ, we even rake and place, OH THE SHAME !!!! Handicap systems been down all winter so no scores posted, cheating i like that :black eye:

[DaveLeeNC]

Hopefully we can now address the question that was asked (which is NOT a ROG question and NOT about proper procedures as defined in 7-1. It is about how judgements are made regarding preferred lies and course conditions).

 

dave

 

I answered. If we're playing golf, we play it down. If we're just screwing around, I don't care what you do.

 

-mini

 

Yeah - right. You were trying to be helpful (rather than making your own unhelpful point). Yeah - sure.

 

dave

[longballjs]

The only time we play something close to winter rules, is in the brief time after aeration before it heals - and it has to be the large tines, not the micro ones.

 

I know you got pissed before about people saying winter rules is crap - but winter rule in NC - cmon what does it get to, 40, 30 on occasion in the winter

[DaveLeeNC]

The only time we play something close to winter rules, is in the brief time after aeration before it heals - and it has to be the large tines, not the micro ones.

 

I know you got pissed before about people saying winter rules is crap - but winter rule in NC - cmon what does it get to, 40, 30 on occasion in the winter

 

It is hardly a temperature thing. Bermuda goes to totally dead at temps that are quite comfortable. If they wouldn't overseed IMHO the fairways would remain quite playable all year as dormant bermuda is fine (although 6 months of unhealed divots is ALOT of divots). But they literally scalp the fairways to nothing, then overseed just enough to make things worse (but prettier).

 

dave

[longballjs]

But they literally scalp the fairways to nothing, then overseed just enough to make things worse (but prettier).

 

LOL - don't you hate when they do that sh!t for no reason

 

Anyways, if it as bad as you describe, then I suppose until the course starts to heal again - good luck

[BugsyinNC]

Dave, I am assuming you are playing the Pinehurst courses, I just played nr 2 today and the fairways are in great shape and I played everything down with no problems. Nr 4 is still very thin but 1 and 6 are in great shape. I haven't played 3 or 5 in two weeks. I wish they would let things go dormant as well and do away with the overseeding but the resort wants things pretty.

[Tmiller72]

The only time we play something close to winter rules, is in the brief time after aeration before it heals - and it has to be the large tines, not the micro ones.

 

I know you got pissed before about people saying winter rules is crap - but winter rule in NC - cmon what does it get to, 40, 30 on occasion in the winter

 

I'm in NC. It's currently 21 degrees, the wind is blowing 30-40 and it's snowing. 6-8 inches since last night. Oh, and the courses around here have been closed since late October. No winter rules here since we can't play.

[italianstallion]

There are a couple private clubs around me that keep "winter rules" in effect all season long.

 

Personally, I only touch my ball between the tee and the hole if it is embedded. Anything more and something just doesn't feel right in me. Anytime some sort of rules question comes into effect like that, I always think to myself "I bet Bobby Jones didn't do this in his day."

[DaveLeeNC]

Dave, I am assuming you are playing the Pinehurst courses, I just played nr 2 today and the fairways are in great shape and I played everything down with no problems. Nr 4 is still very thin but 1 and 6 are in great shape. I haven't played 3 or 5 in two weeks. I wish they would let things go dormant as well and do away with the overseeding but the resort wants things pretty.

 

Yeah - right now 2 is pretty good and 6 is not bad. 4 was REALLY thin 10 days ago - but that was 10 days ago. 10 days of warmer weather (but still too cold for bermuda to do much) will sometimes make things better - often makes it worse. 1/3/5 are further behind.

 

dave

[longballjs]

I'm in NC. It's currently 21 degrees, the wind is blowing 30-40 and it's snowing. 6-8 inches since last night. Oh, and the courses around here have been closed since late October. No winter rules here since we can't play.

Wow, you kinda spanked me there - make sure to wear your sweater!!!

 

Anytime some sort of rules question comes into effect like that, I always think to myself "I bet Bobby Jones didn't do this in his day."

While I don't personally like winter rules either, Bobby Jones didn't have 150-300 hacks tearing up a course per day

[Rudders]

"Winter Rules" is cheating no matter what time of year.

 

The Rules of Golf does allow casual water relief and embedded ball relief. Those two rules are adequate to help the player when course conditions are wet from rain.

 

Other than casual water or embedded ball, play the ball as it lies. Anything else is cheating.

 

I hope that your team-mates are of above average tolerance and basically nice guys. While you are proudly displaying your holier-than-thou attitude, hitting ball-after-ball out of all manner of crappy lies, they are getting screwed by your refusal to play by the same rules as the rest of the field in the compeition.

 

dave

 

Yikes! The bile is flowing freely. Time for another Rodney King posting...

[flaun]

Sounds like not many people play water/mud golf like those of us in the NW. I try to play the ball down as much as possible, but after 1 round of hitting balls covered in mud, leading to me being covered in mud even on my hat, I asked myself why I was inlicting myself pain. :russian_roulette: We can only post from March until early November though. But with our wonderfull rain followed by more rain, our courses just can't keep up in the spring. Go ahead and call me a cheater, but my 15 HC isn't getting me anywhere hitting balls covered in mud. If I can barely tell that it is mine in the middle of the fairway. I go ahead and wipe it on the grass and place it right back down where I found it. I can't wait for the summer so I can actually get a round in without 10 pounds of mud on my clothes and shoes.

[I A N]

for everyone saying "there isnt winter rules etc your cheating"

i invite you to play in 0 degrees weather with no roll where your ball plugs where it lands i then invite you to try doing it without lift clean and place.

[frozen_rope]

The Rules of Golf permit embedded ball relief from anywhere outside of a hazard.

The Rules also permit relief from casual water if the water affects the players ball or stance.

These two Rules are adequate to allow fair and reasonable play during adverse weather and, or, poor course conditions.

 

Now, some guys might not like playing with a golf ball that has dirt or mud on it, or playing from a less than good grass lie, but that's their problem. The Rules do permit the player to clean his ball once it's on the putting surface. And bad lies are part of the game.

 

for everyone saying "there isnt winter rules etc your cheating"

i invite you to play in 0 degrees weather with no roll where your ball plugs where it lands i then invite you to try doing it without lift clean and place.

[longballjs]

for everyone saying "there isnt winter rules etc your cheating"

i invite you to play in 0 degrees weather with no roll where your ball plugs where it lands i then invite you to try doing it without lift clean and place.

 

Very few places that are 0 degrees have ground soft enough for the ball to either plug or not run.

[SadTrombone]

Hopefully we can now address the question that was asked (which is NOT a ROG question and NOT about proper procedures as defined in 7-1. It is about how judgements are made regarding preferred lies and course conditions).

 

dave

 

I answered. If we're playing golf, we play it down. If we're just screwing around, I don't care what you do.

 

-mini

 

Yeah - right. You were trying to be helpful (rather than making your own unhelpful point). Yeah - sure.

 

dave

I see. You didn't really want someone to tell you how they do it. You just wanted someone to agree with you and you didn't get that. I understand now.

 

-mini

[SadTrombone]

for everyone saying "there isnt winter rules etc your cheating"

i invite you to play in 0 degrees weather with no roll where your ball plugs where it lands i then invite you to try doing it without lift clean and place.

 

Very few places that are 0 degrees have ground soft enough for the ball to either plug or not run.

As a Canuck (did I spell that right?) he probably means Celsius.

 

-mini

[DavePelz4]

for everyone saying "there isnt winter rules etc your cheating"

i invite you to play in 0 degrees weather with no roll where your ball plugs where it lands i then invite you to try doing it without lift clean and place.

 

Ian...

 

We play nearly year round in Chicago. We play in the 20's (-3 to -5C) all the time. If a ball is embedded in it's pitch mark we do move it...per the rules of the game. Our fairways, even at the nicer courses that are open, are rather Word not allowed as you can imagine as there in no maintenance. In the rough, good luck. But we figure if you hit it there you should deal with the consequences of an erred shot.

 

If you're talking about scoring a round for handicap purposes, there is an "off season" for some parts of the country/world. In Chicago our off-season runs from approximately November 1 to April 1. Despite that, we play it as it lies. You learn to hit some interesting shots that way!

[DaveLeeNC]

Hopefully we can now address the question that was asked (which is NOT a ROG question and NOT about proper procedures as defined in 7-1. It is about how judgements are made regarding preferred lies and course conditions).

 

dave

 

I answered. If we're playing golf, we play it down. If we're just screwing around, I don't care what you do.

 

-mini

 

Yeah - right. You were trying to be helpful (rather than making your own unhelpful point). Yeah - sure.

 

dave

I see. You didn't really want someone to tell you how they do it. You just wanted someone to agree with you and you didn't get that. I understand now.

 

-mini

 

Agree w/me?? Agree w/what??

 

I just want to understand how clubs that make a transition from winter to summer rules decide when to do that. I don't know how my question could have been more clear.

 

dave

[DavePelz4]

Hopefully we can now address the question that was asked (which is NOT a ROG question and NOT about proper procedures as defined in 7-1. It is about how judgements are made regarding preferred lies and course conditions).

 

dave

 

I answered. If we're playing golf, we play it down. If we're just screwing around, I don't care what you do.

 

-mini

 

Yeah - right. You were trying to be helpful (rather than making your own unhelpful point). Yeah - sure.

 

dave

I see. You didn't really want someone to tell you how they do it. You just wanted someone to agree with you and you didn't get that. I understand now.

 

-mini

 

Agree w/me?? Agree w/what??

 

I just want to understand how clubs that make a transition from winter to summer rules decide when to do that. I don't know how my question could have been more clear.

 

dave

 

Dave...

 

Politely, you won't find a section in the Rules of Golf that covers "winter rules." It doesn't exist. If your club has "Local Rules", then they need to provide the parameters of when and how.