Number 11 at Augusta National

[thefuture37]

Much is written about how perfect Hogan hit it. However, one of Hogan's most famous bits of "course management" was purposely missing the green on number 11, because he was afraid of hitting it in the water. He knew he just needed a 4 and could chip and putt from short right of the green. So the question is, if he was such a great ballstriker, why the sudden lack of confidence on this hole?

[Baxpin]

Much is written about how perfect Hogan hit it. However, one of Hogan's most famous bits of "course management" was purposely missing the green on number 11, because he was afraid of hitting it in the water. He knew he just needed a 4 and could chip and putt from short right of the green. So the question is, if he was such a great ballstriker, why the sudden lack of confidence on this hole?

 

Why take the chance with a wildcard like the wind? Put the ball in a place where no matter what happens, bogey is out of play. Just because you choose to play to a safe spot doesn't mean you don't believe you can hit it on a rope at the flag if you must.

[eightiron]

Much is written about how perfect Hogan hit it. However, one of Hogan's most famous bits of "course management" was purposely missing the green on number 11, because he was afraid of hitting it in the water. He knew he just needed a 4 and could chip and putt from short right of the green. So the question is, if he was such a great ballstriker, why the sudden lack of confidence on this hole?

 

 

Yeah Future , he had no balls left

[Dariusz J.]

Much is written about how perfect Hogan hit it. However, one of Hogan's most famous bits of "course management" was purposely missing the green on number 11, because he was afraid of hitting it in the water. He knew he just needed a 4 and could chip and putt from short right of the green. So the question is, if he was such a great ballstriker, why the sudden lack of confidence on this hole?

 

You have answered your own question (bold). Most probably if he assumed he needed a 3 he would go at the flag. Ballstriking is also ability to execute all shots the way one wants to the place one chose, even if it is not close to the flag if situation requires it.

 

Cheers

[thefuture37]

His playing the hole as a layup suggest to me that he though there was positive expectation in purposely missing the green. The green on that hole isnt a postage stamp. Putting it anywhere on the green at least gives you a putt at birdie, whereas missing short takes birdie almost out of play. I think this is an example of how Hogan's ballstriking ability has become more legendary with time than it really was.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

the 11th played harder back then by more than half a stroke compared to nowadays, its modern equivalent would be a drive-able par 4 risk reward hole. strategy is an important part of golf as zach johnson proved when he layed up on all the par 5 to win his masters.

 

the 11th is also part of 'amen corner', 3 of the toughest holes in major history mainly due to the swirling winds within the corner, the 3 flags are often blowing in different directions. the second shot is from a hook lie.

 

you will also see a bridge in amen corner named after ben hogan, commemorating his tournament record score of 274 in 1953, smashing the previous record by 5 shots.

 

with regards his legendary ballstriking growing over time, im sure your right, but he was also a legend during his own time as this particularly apt article will show you, it was written in 1953 and has many of the underlying themes of your argument.

 

http://turf.lib.msu.edu/1950s/1953/530605.pdf

[thefuture37]

I'm not saying he wasnt great. He is one of my favorite legends. Its just too bad there werent good stats for driving accuracy, distance, and GIR back then. Those would really be telling.

[martinez]

I'm not saying he wasnt great. He is one of my favorite legends. Its just too bad there werent good stats for driving accuracy, distance, and GIR back then. Those would really be telling.

Those stats aren't very telling now, what good would looking at stats from that era do, they would be useless if you tried to compare them to say the 2008 stats.

[thefuture37]

I'm not saying he wasnt great. He is one of my favorite legends. Its just too bad there werent good stats for driving accuracy, distance, and GIR back then. Those would really be telling.

Those stats aren't very telling now, what good would looking at stats from that era do, they would be useless if you tried to compare them to say the 2008 stats.

 

why would you compare them to today's stats? you wouldn't. you would compare his stats to other players of his day. If hes hitting 80% fairways and greens and there are other players hitting 75%, then the commotion over his swing isn't justified.

[HoganAfficianado]

If you listened to Tiger talking about the wind at Augusta it would make sense why Hogan did what he did. Tiger said that him and Stevie were going back and fourth on whether to hit a 5 iron or an eight iron within a matter of seconds. I don't know about the exact shot you guys are talking about with Hogan but when the winds are swirling it's almost a guessing game. One reason for all the commotion over his swing is because some the greatest players that have ever lived named him the best ball striker they have ever seen.

[frozen_rope]

I'll never forget Vijay Singh taking an illegal drop on the 11th hole at the 2000 Masters, which he "won".

He pulled his iron well left into the water. T.V. showed the point of entry and Venturi talked about it until Nance must have told him to cool it. Vijay should have dropped well back in front of the water, leaving him a tricky flop type shot over the water to the back left hole location. Instead Vijay cheated and took his drop right alongside the water at the edge of the green, leaving himself the easiset possible up and down.

 

Why did he do it ?Because he knew he could get away with it. Point of entry is always dependent upon the honor of the player. We've all seen weekend hackers take ridiculously liberal drops as to where their ball entered a hazard. Most playing professionals are above that kind of cheating, but not Vijay.

 

Much is written about how perfect Hogan hit it. However, one of Hogan's most famous bits of "course management" was purposely missing the green on number 11, because he was afraid of hitting it in the water. He knew he just needed a 4 and could chip and putt from short right of the green. So the question is, if he was such a great ballstriker, why the sudden lack of confidence on this hole?

[martinez]

I'm not saying he wasnt great. He is one of my favorite legends. Its just too bad there werent good stats for driving accuracy, distance, and GIR back then. Those would really be telling.

Those stats aren't very telling now, what good would looking at stats from that era do, they would be useless if you tried to compare them to say the 2008 stats.

 

why would you compare them to today's stats? you wouldn't. you would compare his stats to other players of his day. If hes hitting 80% fairways and greens and there are other players hitting 75%, then the commotion over his swing isn't justified.

If you took the stats of other players and only in the events that Mr. Hogan played they would be somewhat relevant. Yearly stats are not telling of anything even today because some players play completely different schedules and some courses play easier than others when talking about those stats.

 

I'll never forget Vijay Singh taking an illegal drop on the 11th hole at the 2000 Masters, which he "won".

He pulled his iron well left into the water. T.V. showed the point of entry and Venturi talked about it until Nance must have told him to cool it. Vijay should have dropped well back in front of the water, leaving him a tricky flop type shot over the water to the back left hole location. Instead Vijay cheated and took his drop right alongside the water at the edge of the green, leaving himself the easiset possible up and down.

 

Why did he do it ?Because he knew he could get away with it. Point of entry is always dependent upon the honor of the player. We've all seen weekend hackers take ridiculously liberal drops as to where their ball entered a hazard. Most playing professionals are above that kind of cheating, but not Vijay.

This is really not on topic at all and it's also bovine excrement.

[birly-shirly]

I'm not saying he wasnt great. He is one of my favorite legends. Its just too bad there werent good stats for driving accuracy, distance, and GIR back then. Those would really be telling.

Those stats aren't very telling now, what good would looking at stats from that era do, they would be useless if you tried to compare them to say the 2008 stats.

 

why would you compare them to today's stats? you wouldn't. you would compare his stats to other players of his day. If hes hitting 80% fairways and greens and there are other players hitting 75%, then the commotion over his swing isn't justified.

If you took the stats of other players and only in the events that Mr. Hogan played they would be somewhat relevant. Yearly stats are not telling of anything even today because some players play completely different schedules and some courses play easier than others when talking about those stats.

 

 

hogan's stats would be useful, not for comparing him to players today or even players of his own day, but because they would show that on average he hit around 13 greens in a round, instead of all the bunk that we hear about him never missing a shot.

 

once we got that out of the way, we could get back to appreciating how well he managed his game, how he had to chip and pitch (and yes, even putt) to compile his scores and his wins.

 

that would be much better, more educational and more fitting than having him remembered as some one-dimensional, fantasy figure that had to play out of his own divots.

[thefuture37]

hogan's stats would be useful, not for comparing him to players today or even players of his own day, but because they would show that on average he hit around 13 greens in a round, instead of all the bunk that we hear about him never missing a shot.

 

once we got that out of the way, we could get back to appreciating how well he managed his game, how he had to chip and pitch (and yes, even putt) to compile his scores and his wins.

 

that would be much better, more educational and more fitting than having him remembered as some one-dimensional, fantasy figure that had to play out of his own divots.

 

BLASPHEMY! After 1953 Mr. Hogan hit 18 FIR and 18 GIR nearly every round!!! just ask darius

[Dariusz J.]

BLASPHEMY! After 1953 Mr. Hogan hit 18 FIR and 18 GIR nearly every round!!! just ask darius

 

Don't use my name, please, if you can't prove accusations. Show me a single post where I said Hogan could hit 100% FIR and GIR all the time. I am a huge Hogan fan, but I am realistic, opposite to some Tiger Woods fans who believe that he is the best in everything in golf...LOL.

IMO, Hogan's FIR & GIR average tournament round statistics after accident could oscillate around 85-90 % (sometimes exceeding 90% as in case of 1953 year) which is a number UNATTAINABLE to any other golfer (maybe except Moe), no matter what year is taken into account.

 

Cheers

[rblmp32]

Mayhaps it also had to do with the shape of the hole and Hogan's preferred shot shape. To hit a fade to basically any flag on that green, you'd have to start it over the water, not a welcoming prospect for anyone, even someone as great as Hogan.

[mikpga]

A healthy respect of the hazard...

 

Ask Raymond Floyd...

[thefuture37]

BLASPHEMY! After 1953 Mr. Hogan hit 18 FIR and 18 GIR nearly every round!!! just ask darius

 

Don't use my name, please, if you can't prove accusations. Show me a single post where I said Hogan could hit 100% FIR and GIR all the time. I am a huge Hogan fan, but I am realistic, opposite to some Tiger Woods fans who believe that he is the best in everything in golf...LOL.

IMO, Hogan's FIR & GIR average tournament round statistics after accident could oscillate around 85-90 % (sometimes exceeding 90% as in case of 1953 year) which is a number UNATTAINABLE to any other golfer (maybe except Moe), no matter what year is taken into account.

 

Cheers

this whole sub-forum is based around things that cant be proven! what do you base your estimates of 85-90% on? do you have access to some stats of the day that others dont?

 

btw Tiger isnt the best at everything in golf, but he is the best at what matters most(you know posting low scores).

[JOEGOLFWRX]

Much is written about how perfect Hogan hit it. However, one of Hogan's most famous bits of "course management" was purposely missing the green on number 11, because he was afraid of hitting it in the water. He knew he just needed a 4 and could chip and putt from short right of the green. So the question is, if he was such a great ballstriker, why the sudden lack of confidence on this hole?

 

so anyway, to go back to your first post, the masters has just ended, after being revamped to 'bring back the roars', the course was set up a lot easier than ever before resulting in many records being broken. anthony kim had 11 birdies in one round, yet said he didnt hit the ball very well afterward.

on this easier course the 11th hole still played the hardest, averaging around 4.3.

 

the stats for top 20 players including ties on the 11th were

4 birdies

79 pars

29 bogies

4 double bogies

(out of these only the aggressive debutant rory mcilroy played the hole under par with 1 birdie and 3 pars)

 

if angel cabrera, chad campbell, or kenny perry had taken 4 pars on the 11th they would have won the masters outright in normal time.

 

the swing/fitness/beginners forum is about learning how to improve your golf game, this subforum isnt about hogan worship its about learning from hogan, its only segregated to stop flaming and trolls. instead of dissing hogan (and darius) perhaps you should try to learn from hogans strategy on the 11th.

 

maybe there are times you should lay up.

[thefuture37]

maybe there are times you should lay up.

 

of course there are times to lay up. (btw the pin was so easy on 11 today it was a joke, even hogan wouldnt have purposely missed it with that pin) lay up if theres no positive expectation in going for the green. i would bet hypothetical hogan's average score would be lower on 11 if he shot at every pin(accepting some wet balls), than if he lays up(and of course hes not going to get it up and down every time).

[martinez]

I'm going out on a limb here...but judging by the famous 1 iron onto the 18th Green at Merion in 1950....Mr. Hogan would probably have made a better fist of 17 and 18 than Tiger/Phil/Kenny/Chad or Angel did today.

[Dariusz J.]

this whole sub-forum is based around things that cant be proven! what do you base your estimates of 85-90% on? do you have access to some stats of the day that others dont?

 

Of course, they are only my predictions (said IMO when writting it). It was, however, not so difficult to draw those conclusions while having at the disposal some historical facts - as e.g. missing only one fairway (and two or three greens) during his The Open performance in 1953. He played then US Open and Masters, beating two course records. Since we know that Hogan's putting went to hell after the accident, his FIR and GIR statistics in this year must have been like I predicted - or even better. Otherwise he wouldn't have won all three majors he attended in this year with such a huge advantage over the runners-up. Too bad that he could not play the fourth one this year...

 

Cheers

[rblmp32]

I'm going out on a limb here...but judging by the famous 1 iron onto the 18th Green at Merion in 1950....Mr. Hogan would probably have made a better fist of 17 and 18 than Tiger/Phil/Kenny/Chad or Angel did today.

 

That's a really thin limb, being that one of those aforementioned players happens to be Tiger Woods... winner of 14 majors. Which would be 5 more than Mr. Hogan. You can't even possibly go out on a limb with that statement, b/c it's backed only by about 50 years of mystique and legend.

[martinez]

I'm going out on a limb here...but judging by the famous 1 iron onto the 18th Green at Merion in 1950....Mr. Hogan would probably have made a better fist of 17 and 18 than Tiger/Phil/Kenny/Chad or Angel did today.

 

That's a really thin limb, being that one of those aforementioned players happens to be Tiger Woods... winner of 14 majors. Which would be 5 more than Mr. Hogan. You can't even possibly go out on a limb with that statement, b/c it's backed only by about 50 years of mystique and legend.

I think it's backed by a good deal more than mystique and legend. We saw the world #2 dump it short/right for a left hander with a 9 iron on 12( a lefty should never dunk it on that hole imo)...and the world #1 miss two fairways back to back in different directions to end the round. The playoff speaks for itself.

 

Mr. Hogan played only 1 Open Championship lifetime and couldn't really play the marathon that was the PGA post accident. Won a US Open during the war years that didn't count as well as missing several more years of his prime due to war/wreck. 9 majors is a pretty solid effort given that. Now since this thread is about the quality or lack thereof of his ballstriking and people keep insinuating that it was all 'mystique'....I thought I'd point out that from all accounts we would not have seen what we saw today from him.

[thefuture37]

people always talk about how many majors hogan could have won if not for the draft and his accident. they forget that he didnt win his first major until he was 34. it took him a long time to figure out how to win majors. compare that to tiger winning by 12 shots when he was 21. no contest. imagine what will happen if tiger "figures it out" when he is 34 like hogan did...

[mikpga]

Much is written about how perfect Hogan hit it. However, one of Hogan's most famous bits of "course management" was purposely missing the green on number 11, because he was afraid of hitting it in the water. He knew he just needed a 4 and could chip and putt from short right of the green. So the question is, if he was such a great ballstriker, why the sudden lack of confidence on this hole?

This does not demonstrate a lack of confidence...

 

It is simply taking the big number out of play...

 

End of story...

 

Golf is a game of good misses...

[martinez]

Maybe one of the things Hogan figured out about winning Majors by 34 was not going for the green on 11 at Augusta, no matter how well you hit the ball, it wasn't a percentage play back then?

[Manko65]

people always talk about how many majors hogan could have won if not for the draft and his accident. they forget that he didnt win his first major until he was 34. it took him a long time to figure out how to win majors. compare that to tiger winning by 12 shots when he was 21. no contest. imagine what will happen if tiger "figures it out" when he is 34 like hogan did...

 

I'm not sure a comparison of major wins from different eras has much bearing on ball striking legendness.

 

But if you want to compare eras-even though Tiger may statistically match Nicklaus and become the greatest major winner, I would say Nicklaus would have to be a better alround ball striker than Tiger simply on the basis of equipment Nicklaus used and that available today. Nicklaus was in a position to see both players and is clear in his opinion of who is a better ball striker.

 

Tiger may well "figure" it out by 34 and miracurously transform himself into the "best" ballstriker. If this were the case and Tiger could maintain his amazing scrambling and putting game then maybe he will get bored of winning majors.

[thefuture37]

Maybe one of the things Hogan figured out about winning Majors by 34 was not going for the green on 11 at Augusta, no matter how well you hit the ball, it wasn't a percentage play back then?

 

you need to edit this with even some decent grammar before anyone is going to be able to figure out the three different things you are trying to say at once

[bovi]

Martinez

I'm going out on a limb here...but judging by the famous 1 iron onto the 18th Green at Merion in 1950....Mr. Hogan would probably have made a better fist of 17 and 18 than Tiger/Phil/Kenny/Chad or Angel did today.

 

abit off topic but i'm under the impression that it was actually a 2 iron. i've seen/heard alot of corrections to this 1 iron theory

 

JOEGOLFWRX,

 

thanks for the link to that piece by Herbet Warren Wind :)