Scotty Cameron Classic Mini

[add1]

[quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1866990' date='Aug 5 2009, 05:34 PM'][quote name='add1' post='1866938' date='Aug 5 2009, 03:05 PM'][quote name='foregasim' post='1866898' date='Aug 5 2009, 04:44 PM']Here is a picture I pulled off of the Cameron web site. It probable is one of those $7,000 GSS billets, the ones from Germany. lol[/quote]
Someone please help me I am now lost.I thought it was agreed that Tigers putter was probally cast and then skimmed milled.So why do you need a 5lb billet that would make 2 putters or more as no wastage if your just casting a head.Now I accept I'm not the sharpest tool in the box and you can make trees for multiple heads for casting,but the marketing skills of SC would not miss out on this holy grail of putters sales.An exact copy of Tigers head priceless.Or is it now a completely milled head.or can SC not remember, being so busy improving everthing.HELP!!!!.
[/quote]

They melt the stainless billet and pour the molten steel into a wax cast of the putter. The original mold was probably milled from a CNC machine with surfaces thicker than the final shape so that skim milling and grinding/sanding can be performed to get the putter to finished size and shape.
[/quote]
Yeh I get that.Now here's my questions.Going on the idea that the 5lb block is for milling 2 heads and (Tigers head is cast?)yes you re-work after casting to get a finished product but you are not going to masses of waste or the mold is pointless or poor quality to start with,if the head is 350gsm and at worse another 100gsm for re-work.where is the other 4lb of steel gone.If your cost is $7000 for the billet saving the scrap is quite important IMO.

[biscuity]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1867043' date='Aug 5 2009, 02:59 PM']In any event, I do not think that waste was a big concern when making Tigers putter. Tiger felt that a cast putter has a different feel and that is what Tiger was looking for, something different than what Cameron had been making for him on the CNC mills. Something more like his original Ping Anser that he grew up using. The rest of the mumbo jumbo Biscuit and the others throw out is to purposefully confuse you and distract from the issues being discussed.[/quote]


Actually the idea of Tiger using a cast putter is very interesting to me. I think it would be great if he was still using his original Pat Pend Ping Anser 2 putter. Unfortunately the facts don't add up.

1. All of the cast Titleist putters are very rough and look completely different than Tiger's putter. None of them are a Newport 2 style like Tigers. None of them have a smooth finish like Tigers. None of them have crisp edges like Tigers, they all have extremely rounded edges, especially obvious in the neck area.

[attachment=445976:cast_v_tigers.jpg]


Reference:

[url="http://www.scottycameron.com/authentication/registrysearch.asp?registry=C000053"][color="#800080"]http://www.scottycameron.com/authentication/registrysearch.asp?registry=C000053[/color][/url]
[url="http://www.scottycameron.com/authentication/registrysearch.asp?registry=A000673"][color="#800080"]http://www.scottycameron.com/authentication/registrysearch.asp?registry=A000673[/color][/url]
[url="http://www.scottycameron.com/authentication/registrysearch.asp?registry=A002324"][color="#800080"]http://www.scottycameron.com/authentication/registrysearch.asp?registry=A002324[/color][/url]
[url="http://www.scottycameron.com/authentication/registrysearch.asp?registry=A008235"][color="#800080"]http://www.scottycameron.com/authentication/registrysearch.asp?registry=A008235[/color][/url]


2. Scotty's web site says clearly that he doesn't put his name on cast putters. None of the cast Titleist putters say "Scotty Cameron" on them:

"Scotty did very few of these and would not put his name on them because he does not cast putters but want to get a few players into his work and this type of putter was a transition for them."

Tiger's putter says "Scotty Cameron" on the face, which according to Scotty's web site means that it is not a cast putter.

Reference:
[url="http://www.scottycameron.com/authentication/registrysearch.asp?registry=A008235#"][size=3][color="#800080"]http://www.scottycameron.com/authentication/registrysearch.asp?registry=A008235#[/color][/size][/url]


3. It has been argued that none of Scotty's milled putters have the same shape as Tiger's, implying that Scotty can't replicate the shape because it is a casting that no longer exists. There are a few flaws with that logic. First, modern technology would allow him to easily do a 3D scan and replicate the exact shape. Second, Scotty does in fact make putters that are virtually identical to Tiger's. If you look closely at the following photos you will see that the shape is the same, except where Scotty modified the putter to Tiger's preference. To me it looks like 1mm to 2mm has been shaved from the top line. I also see some grinding work to flatten out the angles on both sides of the cavity. Other than those hand-finished modifications I see no other differences. Certainly none as big as the differences between all of the cast Titleist putters and Tiger's gamer.

Comparison photos:

[attachment=445978:TW_Gamer..._minibox.jpg]

[attachment=446017:TW_Gamer_vs_GSS.jpg]

[attachment=445979:TW_Gamer...008781_2.jpg]

4. Tiger used a Ping as an amatuer. He then switched to a Scotty with a Teryllium insert which is much softer feeling than a cast putter. After using that for a while he switched back to a Ping for a short time, Mark O'Meara's back-up Anser 2. Then Scotty made him his current putter, the putter he's used for the past decade to win almost all of his tournaments. That putter is GSS which is harder than Teryllium so it gave him more of a clicky feel like the Ping that he grew up with. It also has no milling marks on the face, which many say gives it a firmer feel/sound than a putter with aggressive milling marks. So he was able to get the feel he wanted with a milled putter.


So ultimately I see a lot of facts that point to Tiger's gamer being a milled Scotty Cameron putter, not a skim-milled cast head.

[RobotDoctor]

The problem with your theory is that:

1) Any cast putter might go through a skim milling process removing any "fingerprint" of the casting process.

The putter you shows was sand cast so there are impressions of the sand cast in the cavity. I mentioned a casting process where a ceramic powder is applied which will not show the rough finish of the putter you showed. The ceramic power will product very smooth surfaces that require little, if any, sanding. I referenced Dolphin Manufacturing and their process. Do you think that the iron heads of the 90s (Ping Eye 2, ISIs, etc) exhibited a rough texture?

2) Cameron will put his name on anything he makes for Tiger, cast putter included. However, the putter really wouldn't be cast if he milled it afterwards, would it?

3) If a putter could be duplicated simply by milling then why can't Cameron produce a backup that Tiger will not reject? The answer is that the casting process melts the metal and how the putter's metallic crystalline structure is actually formed in the cooling process will produce a unique signature with regards to feel. Let me try to explain what I mean.

When steel alloys are melted and cast, whether in large ingots or into a putter head, they have a cast structure. These castings are formed into the required/desired shape(s) by a combination of hot working and cold working of the metal. In other words, the melting and cooling of the alloy. This "working" alters the internal crystalline structure of the metal but metallurgical discontinuities such as segregation of elements, laminations, seams and laps could remain in the finished casting. These discontinuities become "planes and weaknesses" in the finished product. The reason there are "hot spots" in castings is because the "hot spot" is a portion of the casting that does not contain the discontinuity. Metals have grain that is produced in the cooling phase of metal formation. Metals also have discontinuities and the exact placement of these discontinuities cannot be designed or replicated. Because of this golfers have been on a quest to replace the "feel" of a special putter and search for a very long time because "identical" putters really are not that in terms of feel. Putters may look the same but feel is a totally different story.

Secondly, if the putter is now hard, or has hot spots, was an annealing process applied? Annealing is a heat treatment process that is designed to place the metal in it's softest, lowest strength condition. This is a heat treat process that is commonly used in the manufacturing of steel structures and pipe but it can certainly be applied for putters. The annealing process redistributes the atomic structure of the metal and realigns the grain structure to attempts to remove the discontinuities present. The end result is a metal that has a softer feel.

Finally, if the putter was indeed cast then skim milled, some hand finishing might have been performed by Cameron. If any hand sanding/grinding was performed then that would account for any slight differential in shape and weight of the putter that cannot be replicated with the accuracy of CNC machines. This might explain why Cameron cannot produce a backup that Tiger will accept.

Just a theory.


[u]Discontinuity[/u]: [i]Any irregularity in the normal pattern of a material; any interruption of the uniform nature of an item.[/i] ("Weld Inspection Technology: Fourth Edition - 2000"; American Welding Society).

[biscuity]

[quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1867744' date='Aug 5 2009, 08:53 PM']The problem with your theory is that:

1) Any cast putter might go through a skim milling process removing any "fingerprint" of the casting process.

The putter you shows was sand cast so there are impressions of the sand cast in the cavity. I mentioned a casting process where a ceramic powder is applied which will not show the rough finish of the putter you showed. The ceramic power will product very smooth surfaces that require little, if any, sanding. I referenced Dolphin Manufacturing and their process. Do you think that the iron heads of the 90s (Ping Eye 2, ISIs, etc) exhibited a rough texture?[/quote]

Now you're moving the goal posts. The original logic was that Titleist has made a few cast heads for touring pros, so it isn't unlikely that Tiger's is a cast head. So I showed photos of all of the previous cast Titleist putters that I could find and they all look completely different than Tiger's putter.

[quote]2) Cameron will put his name on anything he makes for Tiger, cast putter included. However, the putter really wouldn't be cast if he milled it afterwards, would it? [/quote]

Not true, his site says he doesn't put his name on cast putters. None of the cast putters say Scotty Cameron on them.

[quote]3) If a putter could be duplicated simply by milling then why can't Cameron produce a backup that Tiger will not reject? The answer is that the casting process melts the metal and how the putter's metallic crystalline structure is actually formed in the cooling process will produce a unique signature with regards to feel.[/quote]

That's speculation, I've never seen a quote directly from Tiger that states Cameron can't produce a satisfactory back-up. It would be extremely hard for me to believe that the world's #1 golfer has been touring the world for the past 10 years without a satisfactory back-up putter. I think he's rejected a lot of the putters that Scotty has offered because he already has several exact replicas, and the new ones weren't close enough to his original. I've heard a rumor that Tiger has more than 40 Scotty back-up putters around the world in case his gamer gets lost/damaged.

Foregasim challenged me to show a putter that was milled like Tiger's gamer, so I showed photos of 3 putters that are virtual clones. I'm sure Tiger could get around a course fairly well with one of those if he lost his gamer.

The only way we will ever know what Tiger will use for a back-up will be when he actually needs to use a back-up. Personally, I doubt it will be a cast putter.

[RobotDoctor]

1) I am not moving goal posts. I am rebutting your response to cast putters. You stated that all the cast putters Cameron made has a rough finish. Well, yes, the Anser reproductions he made for Elkington, Love, Duval, and others, had this rough, sand cast appearance. That said, I just mentioned that there are casting processes that will leave no rough finish. I will even go on to say that if there are visible mill marks on a wax mold, the ceramic casted molds will even pick that up in the process and produce the milling (somewhat) in the casting.

By the way, I have witness the casting process at Dolphin Manufacturing first hand and seen the before and after products. Have you been to a golf club casting facility and seen this for yourself? Believe me, casting is a very exact science and you would be amazed in what can be done with a "rough" casting. Believe me, it is not so rough.

2) And you believe everything Cameron states on his website? Wasn't there a question about the Mini putter that was stated on his website that has caused this thread to go over 1700 posts? Oy vey! I would bet that Cameron would put his name on a banana on a stick if Tiger said that is what he wanted to putt with. Tiger is Cameron's single biggest marketing tool. How many people want a Cameron putter because Tiger putts with one. A LOT. Fact of the matter is that Tiger sells. What ever he plays, people want, at least the new found golfer. Cameron is the master sales marketing machine and he will do anything to sell his product. Poster anyone?

3) Cameron has stated that he makes one or two backups for Tiger each year. This is a fact. If so, that means there are about 20 backups made (10 years now with this gamer). It has also been stated that Tiger has given a few away as gifts. It is no secret that Tiger has rejected many Cameron backups. How the heck do you think one showed up at AOP, or in Eddie Gomez's possession, or in the hands of other collectors. There was even a sale of a Tiger backup a couple of years ago in Kansas City that went for around (reportedly) $30K - $35K. How about the story about Tiger rejecting one of the backups because the site dot was the width of a piece of paper too big. He looked at it and instantly rejected it. Case closed on that putter.

If Cameron had a CNC program for Tiger's actual putter don't you think that Tiger would not have to reject so many of them. Also, Tiger has stated that his backup is a Nike, not a Cameron. So who are we to believe?

[CPSOX]

Sam, Tiger's "backup" putter could be made from moon rock and it wouldn't matter. The fact that he hasn't putted with one has nothing to do with their production, but the fact that he has 13 majors with his "gamer". He could say his backup is Phil Knight's tibia and it would be a moot point.

[RobotDoctor]

I agree that Tiger's backup does not matter. Tiger is not going to switch putters any time soon. That said, it was not I that posted several pictures of Tiger backups in the first place. The discussion was talking about the $7,000 that it took to make Tiger's putter and that the possibility that if Tiger's putter was cast from GSS then the cost to produce a CNC milled mold and the casting process and the refinishing process could lead up to such a cost. There has been much talk about Tiger's putter whether it was milled or cast. Tiger likes cast putters so the speculation of a cast putter. If it were cast, so what? The finish milling and sanding would, in all likelihood, have been done by Cameron, at least the sanding.

Again, I could care less what Tiger's gamer is but the defense that was posted in post #1734 is very thin. Arguments 1 and 3 hold no water and is an empty attempt of Rah Rah. Argument 2, well who really knows what the truth is or not on the website. I believe if Tiger said he wanted a cast putter from Cameron then it would be made. Who wouldn't want to hitch their wagon onto the best golfer?

[biscuity]

[quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1867854' date='Aug 5 2009, 10:05 PM']1) I am not moving goal posts. I am rebutting your response to cast putters. You stated that all the cast putters Cameron made has a rough finish. Well, yes, the Anser reproductions he made for Elkington, Love, Duval, and others, had this rough, sand cast appearance. That said, I just mentioned that there are casting processes that will leave no rough finish. I will even go on to say that if there are visible mill marks on a wax mold, the ceramic casted molds will even pick that up in the process and produce the milling (somewhat) in the casting.

By the way, I have witness the casting process at Dolphin Manufacturing first hand and seen the before and after products. Have you been to a golf club casting facility and seen this for yourself? Believe me, casting is a very exact science and you would be amazed in what can be done with a "rough" casting. Believe me, it is not so rough.[/quote]

My point was that the examples of cast Titleist putters from the same era that Tiger's would have been made (around 1998) are all very low quality castings. It's not logical to assume that he would make a junky looking putter for Davis Love and a great one for Tiger. If anything DL3 is more in Scotty's camp than Tiger.


[quote]2) And you believe everything Cameron states on his website? Wasn't there a question about the Mini putter that was stated on his website that has caused this thread to go over 1700 posts? Oy vey! I would bet that Cameron would put his name on a banana on a stick if Tiger said that is what he wanted to putt with. Tiger is Cameron's single biggest marketing tool. How many people want a Cameron putter because Tiger putts with one. A LOT. Fact of the matter is that Tiger sells. What ever he plays, people want, at least the new found golfer. Cameron is the master sales marketing machine and he will do anything to sell his product. Poster anyone?[/quote]

When he goes to the trouble to state a policy on his web site I believe him. Others discount everything he says as a lies because there is a controversy over "1 of 5" or "fewer than 5". Fewer than 5 is not a lie until someone shows photos of more than 5 completed Classic Mini putters. So far we've only seen photos of 3.

[quote]3) Cameron has stated that he makes one or two backups for Tiger each year. This is a fact. If so, that means there are about 20 backups made (10 years now with this gamer). It has also been stated that Tiger has given a few away as gifts. It is no secret that Tiger has rejected many Cameron backups. How the heck do you think one showed up at AOP, or in Eddie Gomez's possession, or in the hands of other collectors. There was even a sale of a Tiger backup a couple of years ago in Kansas City that went for around (reportedly) $30K - $35K. How about the story about Tiger rejecting one of the backups because the site dot was the width of a piece of paper too big. He looked at it and instantly rejected it. Case closed on that putter.

If Cameron had a CNC program for Tiger's actual putter don't you think that Tiger would not have to reject so many of them. Also, Tiger has stated that his backup is a Nike, not a Cameron. So who are we to believe?[/quote]

Actually the number of back-ups is 3-5 each year. But on many of those Scotty pushes the envelope and tries to sneak in some of his new features like a high toe. Tiger likes what he has and he probably has several back-ups that are exactly the way he wants them. In that scenario it's perfectly understandable that he rejects putters and gives them to friends. Eddie Gomez's putter has some significant differences to Tigers, most noticeable is the absence of a milled undercut on the back of the face. It's a great looking putter though. I'd game it in a heartbeat, but I can also see why Tiger might not replace his old faithful with it.

[attachment=446068:TW_v_golfereddie.jpg]

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1867906' date='Aug 6 2009, 02:08 AM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1867854' date='Aug 5 2009, 10:05 PM']1) I am not moving goal posts. I am rebutting your response to cast putters. You stated that all the cast putters Cameron made has a rough finish. Well, yes, the Anser reproductions he made for Elkington, Love, Duval, and others, had this rough, sand cast appearance. That said, I just mentioned that there are casting processes that will leave no rough finish. I will even go on to say that if there are visible mill marks on a wax mold, the ceramic casted molds will even pick that up in the process and produce the milling (somewhat) in the casting.

By the way, I have witness the casting process at Dolphin Manufacturing first hand and seen the before and after products. Have you been to a golf club casting facility and seen this for yourself? Believe me, casting is a very exact science and you would be amazed in what can be done with a "rough" casting. Believe me, it is not so rough.[/quote]

My point was that the examples of cast Titleist putters from the same era that Tiger's would have been made (around 1998) are all very low quality castings. It's not logical to assume that he would make a junky looking putter for Davis Love and a great one for Tiger. If anything DL3 is more in Scotty's camp than Tiger. [/quote]

Davis Love III (who I like by the way) could be having daily sleep overs at the Camerons (if you know what I mean) and Scotty'd still be more inclined to make what Tiger wants than what Davis wants.

By the way, those aren't "Low Quality" it is simply a different kind of casting - which some people happen to like.

[quote][quote]2) And you believe everything Cameron states on his website? Wasn't there a question about the Mini putter that was stated on his website that has caused this thread to go over 1700 posts? Oy vey! I would bet that Cameron would put his name on a banana on a stick if Tiger said that is what he wanted to putt with. Tiger is Cameron's single biggest marketing tool. How many people want a Cameron putter because Tiger putts with one. A LOT. Fact of the matter is that Tiger sells. What ever he plays, people want, at least the new found golfer. Cameron is the master sales marketing machine and he will do anything to sell his product. Poster anyone?[/quote]

When he goes to the trouble to state a policy on his web site I believe him. Others discount everything he says as a lies because there is a controversy over "1 of 5" or "fewer than 5". Fewer than 5 is not a lie until someone shows photos of more than 5 completed Classic Mini putters. So far we've only seen photos of 3.[/quote]

Not lies, just that the credibility of what is posted on his website is in doubt, and not just because of the Mini issue. His site is full of purposely misleading statements and videos designed and executed to influence perception rather than share accurate information.

It's called propaganda. Or marketing if your morals allow you to believe that gross deception is an acceptable business practice.

[quote][quote]3) Cameron has stated that he makes one or two backups for Tiger each year. This is a fact. If so, that means there are about 20 backups made (10 years now with this gamer). It has also been stated that Tiger has given a few away as gifts. It is no secret that Tiger has rejected many Cameron backups. How the heck do you think one showed up at AOP, or in Eddie Gomez's possession, or in the hands of other collectors. There was even a sale of a Tiger backup a couple of years ago in Kansas City that went for around (reportedly) $30K - $35K. How about the story about Tiger rejecting one of the backups because the site dot was the width of a piece of paper too big. He looked at it and instantly rejected it. Case closed on that putter.

If Cameron had a CNC program for Tiger's actual putter don't you think that Tiger would not have to reject so many of them. Also, Tiger has stated that his backup is a Nike, not a Cameron. So who are we to believe?[/quote]

Actually the number of back-ups is 3-5 each year. But on many of those Scotty pushes the envelope and tries to sneak in some of his new features like a high toe. Tiger likes what he has and he probably has several back-ups that are exactly the way he wants them. In that scenario it's perfectly understandable that he rejects putters and gives them to friends. Eddie Gomez's putter has some significant differences to Tigers, most noticeable is the absence of a milled undercut on the back of the face. It's a great looking putter though. I'd game it in a heartbeat, but I can also see why Tiger might not replace his old faithful with it.

[attachment=446068:TW_v_golfereddie.jpg]
[/quote]
Scotty to himself: "Hmm... I know that Tiger is a psychologist's wet dream when it comes to OCD and his equipment (I love to tell the story about the rejected putter and the dot that was almost imperceptibly bigger than his gamer), but I'll just make him some backups that don't match his gamer."

Yeah, that makes sense.

[xxio]

Biscuity,

Again I'll say it slowy because it seems you want to go over it again.

It is not that "fewer than 5" is an outright lie. It is just that it doesn't add up with a "1/5" stamping. So either the statement on the website is wrong or the stamping is wrong.

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1867906' date='Aug 6 2009, 12:08 AM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1867854' date='Aug 5 2009, 10:05 PM']1) I am not moving goal posts. I am rebutting your response to cast putters. You stated that all the cast putters Cameron made has a rough finish. Well, yes, the Anser reproductions he made for Elkington, Love, Duval, and others, had this rough, sand cast appearance. That said, I just mentioned that there are casting processes that will leave no rough finish. I will even go on to say that if there are visible mill marks on a wax mold, the ceramic casted molds will even pick that up in the process and produce the milling (somewhat) in the casting.

By the way, I have witness the casting process at Dolphin Manufacturing first hand and seen the before and after products. Have you been to a golf club casting facility and seen this for yourself? Believe me, casting is a very exact science and you would be amazed in what can be done with a "rough" casting. Believe me, it is not so rough.[/quote]

My point was that the examples of cast Titleist putters from the same era that Tiger's would have been made (around 1998) are all very low quality castings. It's not logical to assume that he would make a junky looking putter for Davis Love and a great one for Tiger. If anything DL3 is more in Scotty's camp than Tiger.

[/quote]

Biscuity, you really do not understand the science of casting, do you? The castings that Cameron made that emulated the Ping Scottsdale were done so to replicate the conditions that the Scottsdales were originally made, including metal composition and the sand cast impressions in the cavity. Sand casting is a method still employed today and is an excellent means of casting. The sand is an oil based sand which lends itself to forming around a mold and is a perfectly fine method. Besides, some people prefer the rough cavity look as these replicate the original Scottsdale Anser. These were made in the mid 90s just after Cameron signed with Titleist, not late 90s of Tiger's era. Tiger wanted an very close copy of the Ping Anser 2 he was using and, last I saw, the Ping Anser 2 is not a rough cast putter, it is a smooth cast putter, made by the casting technology I mentioned earlier at the very same plant I was at. That is what Tiger wanted and that is what Cameron produced. That is, of course, if Cameron actually made Tiger's gamer by casting it. Who knows how the putter was actually made. But to use your logic, since Cameron cannot produce a suitable replacement for Tiger's putter with the CNC technology of today and that, [i]"modern technology would allow him to easily do a 3D scan and replicate the exact shape"[/i], then why does Tiger say that his backup is a Nike? Are we to ignore what Tiger says and believe he is not telling the truth?

Then comes my other question. If Tiger's putter was actually cast, who did it? Last I saw from pictures from Cameron's studio, he is not set up to cast using ceramic slurry as Dolphin Manufacturing is. Could it be assumed that if Tiger's putter was actually cast by some contracted vendor, possibly Dolphin? If Tiger's putter is actually cast then it appears that this is another case of propaganda from the Cameron camp to make other's believe the putter was made in the Studio. Just a thought.

[tpariff]

Biscuity,

Since you believe everything on Scotty's site, which of these statements on Scotty's site do you believe?

Exhibit A - COA for a 2004 My Girl stating "1 of only 750"

[url="http://www.scottycameron.com/authentication/registrysearch.asp?registry=A006927"]http://www.scottycameron.com/authenticatio...egistry=A006927[/url]

"Third in the My Girl series in a black pearl finish at 350g. Newport Beach style head with triple flangelines. [size=4][b]1 of only 750 pieces made in 2004.[/b][/size]"


Exhibit B - 2004 My Girl description from the Putter Archive showing "Only 500 pieces were made"

[url="http://www.scottycameron.com/putters/archivedetail.aspx?id=116&modelID=259&seasonID=5"]http://www.scottycameron.com/putters/archi...&seasonID=5[/url]

"The 2004 Limited Release My Girl putter is a modified version of the popular Newport Beach, which has a rich history on Tour with a winning reputation. Scotty refined this soft carbon steel Newport Beach, with its slit ''floating face'' and distinctive sound and feel, by finishing it in brilliant Black Pearl for unmatched beauty. He completed the ensemble by giving its shaft the same iridescent Black Pearl finish - a truly unique accompaniment. The head was specifically selected for this Limited Release project and was weighted heavier at 350g to properly balance the shorter, 33'' overall length. Going along with the girlish pink pistol grip and My Girl shaft band is a black carbon fiber look My Girl headcover embroidered with dancing stars, the ''My Girl'' signature logo (with ''American Made'' below), the words ''Designed by Scotty Cameron'', as well as a 3 Point Cameron logo with stars, and the Titleist script logo. [b][size=4]Only 500 pieces were made.[/size]"[/b]


That's only one example of the inaccuracies of the COA system, the website, etc.

Kevin

[xxio]

Don't confuse him.

He is still deciding which to believe the "fewer than 5" or "1/5".

[biscuity]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1868130' date='Aug 6 2009, 05:43 AM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1867813' date='Aug 6 2009, 12:34 AM']Foregasim challenged me to show a putter that was milled like Tiger's gamer, ...[/quote]

Would you care to share with the class the post where this "challenge" was made?
[/quote]


In post #474 from this thread you wrote:

[i]"Since you seem to be so[color="#000000"] adept at[/color] digging up pictures of old photos and claiming that Cameron CNC milled Tigers putter, how about some photos of some of the other heads that were CNC milled in 1999 that are the IDENTICAL shape as Tigers gamer or is it your position that he created a computer program just for this particular program and never used that program again? It would be the first and only computer program that he ever wrote and it would be the first and only time there was a one of a kind CNC milled Anser 2 Cameron."[/i]

[biscuity]

[quote name='xxio' post='1868018' date='Aug 6 2009, 03:54 AM']Biscuity,

Again I'll say it slowy because it seems you want to go over it again.

It is not that "fewer than 5" is an outright lie. It is just that it doesn't add up with a "1/5" stamping. So either the statement on the website is wrong or the stamping is wrong.[/quote]


Ah I see. It's not a lie, it's just a mistake or slight inaccuracy. Unless 5 heads were made, the first was stamped "1 of 5" and then one of the other putters was damaged during assembly/stamping and destroyed. Is that not possible?

[Redman]

[quote name='tpariff' post='1868151' date='Aug 6 2009, 08:56 AM']Biscuity,

Since you believe everything on Scotty's site, which of these statements on Scotty's site do you believe?

Exhibit A - COA for a 2004 My Girl stating "1 of only 750"

[url="http://www.scottycameron.com/authentication/registrysearch.asp?registry=A006927"]http://www.scottycameron.com/authenticatio...egistry=A006927[/url]

"Third in the My Girl series in a black pearl finish at 350g. Newport Beach style head with triple flangelines. [size=4][b]1 of only 750 pieces made in 2004.[/b][/size]"


Exhibit B - 2004 My Girl description from the Putter Archive showing "Only 500 pieces were made"

[url="http://www.scottycameron.com/putters/archivedetail.aspx?id=116&modelID=259&seasonID=5"]http://www.scottycameron.com/putters/archi...&seasonID=5[/url]

"The 2004 Limited Release My Girl putter is a modified version of the popular Newport Beach, which has a rich history on Tour with a winning reputation. Scotty refined this soft carbon steel Newport Beach, with its slit ''floating face'' and distinctive sound and feel, by finishing it in brilliant Black Pearl for unmatched beauty. He completed the ensemble by giving its shaft the same iridescent Black Pearl finish - a truly unique accompaniment. The head was specifically selected for this Limited Release project and was weighted heavier at 350g to properly balance the shorter, 33'' overall length. Going along with the girlish pink pistol grip and My Girl shaft band is a black carbon fiber look My Girl headcover embroidered with dancing stars, the ''My Girl'' signature logo (with ''American Made'' below), the words ''Designed by Scotty Cameron'', as well as a 3 Point Cameron logo with stars, and the Titleist script logo. [b][size=4]Only 500 pieces were made.[/size]"[/b]


That's only one example of the inaccuracies of the COA system, the website, etc.

Kevin[/quote]

Absolutely shocking.....I can't believe there were more inconsistencies found on Cameron's website.

[biscuity]

[quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1868129' date='Aug 6 2009, 05:43 AM']Biscuity, you really do not understand the science of casting, do you? The castings that Cameron made that emulated the Ping Scottsdale were done so to replicate the conditions that the Scottsdales were originally made, including metal composition and the sand cast impressions in the cavity. Sand casting is a method still employed today and is an excellent means of casting. The sand is an oil based sand which lends itself to forming around a mold and is a perfectly fine method. Besides, some people prefer the rough cavity look as these replicate the original Scottsdale Anser. These were made in the mid 90s just after Cameron signed with Titleist, not late 90s of Tiger's era. Tiger wanted an very close copy of the Ping Anser 2 he was using and, last I saw, the Ping Anser 2 is not a rough cast putter, it is a smooth cast putter, made by the casting technology I mentioned earlier at the very same plant I was at. That is what Tiger wanted and that is what Cameron produced. That is, of course, if Cameron actually made Tiger's gamer by casting it. Who knows how the putter was actually made. But to use your logic, since Cameron cannot produce a suitable replacement for Tiger's putter with the CNC technology of today and that, [i]"modern technology would allow him to easily do a 3D scan and replicate the exact shape"[/i], then why does Tiger say that his backup is a Nike? Are we to ignore what Tiger says and believe he is not telling the truth?

Then comes my other question. If Tiger's putter was actually cast, who did it? Last I saw from pictures from Cameron's studio, he is not set up to cast using ceramic slurry as Dolphin Manufacturing is. Could it be assumed that if Tiger's putter was actually cast by some contracted vendor, possibly Dolphin? If Tiger's putter is actually cast then it appears that this is another case of propaganda from the Cameron camp to make other's believe the putter was made in the Studio. Just a thought.[/quote]

I understand casting enough to know that none of the cast Titleist putters look even remotely similar to the putter that Tiger uses. If it is a casting it is on a much higher level than anything they cast previously. Possible, but not likely, especially after I showed several milled versions that are almost identical to Tiger's putter.

[xxio]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1868256' date='Aug 6 2009, 09:44 PM'][quote name='xxio' post='1868018' date='Aug 6 2009, 03:54 AM']Biscuity,

Again I'll say it slowy because it seems you want to go over it again.

It is not that "fewer than 5" is an outright lie. It is just that it doesn't add up with a "1/5" stamping. So either the statement on the website is wrong or the stamping is wrong.[/quote]


Ah I see. It's not a lie, it's just a mistake or slight inaccuracy. Unless 5 heads were made, the first was stamped "1 of 5" and then one of the other putters was damaged during assembly/stamping and destroyed. Is that not possible?
[/quote]

Very possible but again [b]still just a possibility[/b] while the statement of "fewer than 5" and the "1/5" stampings are [b]FACTS[/b] and are provable and are there for all to see. No need for hypotheses.

Unless you can prove your theory/possibility..... one of them is "incorrect", "inaccurate", or what some might call a "lie"?

[randomhero1090]

Well, now I am freaking curious. My father works at a very large machine shop that mills parts of several large motorcycle manufacturers. They buy mostly scrap, but some orders require higher grade. Hopefully he can get me some prices.

I just think $7000 for a 5lb block of GSS seems outrageous. I asked him to get the prices on 303 SS as well, since that's what my OTR SS Newport 2 is made of. Curious to see the cost difference.

[texas-ex]

[quote name='CPSOX' post='1862579' date='Aug 3 2009, 08:14 PM'][quote name='goinglow72' post='1862560' date='Aug 3 2009, 08:08 PM'][quote name='CPSOX' post='1862546' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:59 PM'][quote name='goinglow72' post='1862508' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:43 PM']There is a difference between "disclosing" and "[b]misleading[/b]" <------(which he does so well)[/quote]


The only reason anyone gives a crap is because his former machinist now makes putters. If Bettinardi didn't make his own, nobody would give a flip where SC's are milled just as long as it's in the US. Is it interesting Bettinardi mills in house? Of course, probably saves a lot of headaches. But let's get real....if you press the CNC button in Carlsbad, CA or somewhere else, what is the difference? Nothing magical happens whether it's done 10 ft or [b]10 states away[/b].


[/quote]

Or 10 countries? Again, you guys are not getting the point (actually you probably do...you just choose to agrue his side till your out of breath). The point isn't really where the friggin putters are made, it's the fact that he makes hislittle videos that mislead people to think that he mills his putters and makes his t-shirts...haha If it's NOT a big deal....why does Cameron try to mislead everyone?

< I can't wait to hear these excuses...so lets hear them>
[/quote]

Lol....and the Keebler Elves make cookies.

I don't think it's a stretch to believe most people realize that Scotty Cameron isn't making t-shirts. Unless one of Acushnet's key employees is expected to throw a little labor detail in every once in awhile.

Does anyone think Bob is loading billets of stainless into his own CNC's? He has videos of him handling material in his shop after all.
[/quote]

In my machine shop I do my best to not touch metal at all. It's icky and dirty. I pay people (probably too much to be honest) to handle all the mfg. There's a a job for every man and a man for every job.

I really don't care who machines the metal or what job shop it's coming from, as long as it isn't coming from China. You guys should see some of the crap machined parts that make their way into this country from those guys. They try to pass it off as "precision" but it looks like a 10 year old made it on a sloppy old engine lathe out of material which may or may not be what they call it. This will be coming to a head soon in the oil industry and unless China starts improving they will lose a big chunk of the major mfg pie.

All of this may or may not have anything to do with putters.

[randomhero1090]

Jeeezzz... just wanted to see the cost of a GSS putter. This one is for sale on eBay for $8500...
[url="http://www.scottycameron.com/authentication/registrysearch.asp?registry=A004341"]http://www.scottycameron.com/authenticatio...egistry=A004341[/url]

Love the finish and the color in the stamping. But my gawd.... It's rare because of vertical stamping.... nevermind, i'll shut up now.

[tpariff]

[quote name='randomhero1090' post='1868320' date='Aug 6 2009, 10:14 AM']Jeeezzz... just wanted to see the cost of a GSS putter. This one is for sale on eBay for $8500...
[url="http://www.scottycameron.com/authentication/registrysearch.asp?registry=A004341"]http://www.scottycameron.com/authenticatio...egistry=A004341[/url]

Love the finish and the color in the stamping. But my gawd.... It's rare because of vertical stamping.... nevermind, i'll shut up now.[/quote]

It's for sale, but there are no bids. I could put a block of cheese on eBay and list it at $8,500, but it doesn't mean it's worth that. Well, unless of course there's an image of the Virgin Mary on it.

Kevin

[randomhero1090]

[quote name='texas-ex' post='1868316' date='Aug 6 2009, 10:11 AM']I really don't care who machines the metal or what job shop it's coming from, as long as it isn't coming from China. You guys should see some of the crap machined parts that make their way into this country from those guys. They try to pass it off as "precision" but it looks like a 10 year old made it on a sloppy old engine lathe out of material which may or may not be what they call it. This will be coming to a head soon in the oil industry and unless China starts improving they will lose a big chunk of the major mfg pie.

All of this may or may not have anything to do with putters.[/quote]

I have this same conversation with my father all the time. He hopes the Chinese continue to use the scrap of the scrap to make parts. Also hopes the "quality" doesn't change. But it's still a world wrapped around cost and what I lovingly call "polishing turds." If it gets the job done, then most people don't care.

And it does relate to putters. I can get a cast putter made in China for $9.99 OR I can get a precision milled putter made from the highest quality steel made right here in the US. Obviously a huge difference in cost, but it is what it is. Do you want a "polished turd" that gets the job done or quality product that gets the job done?

[randomhero1090]

[quote name='tpariff' post='1868333' date='Aug 6 2009, 10:20 AM'][quote name='randomhero1090' post='1868320' date='Aug 6 2009, 10:14 AM']Jeeezzz... just wanted to see the cost of a GSS putter. This one is for sale on eBay for $8500...
[url="http://www.scottycameron.com/authentication/registrysearch.asp?registry=A004341"]http://www.scottycameron.com/authenticatio...egistry=A004341[/url]

Love the finish and the color in the stamping. But my gawd.... It's rare because of vertical stamping.... nevermind, i'll shut up now.[/quote]

It's for sale, but there are no bids. I could put a block of cheese on eBay and list it at $8,500, but it doesn't mean it's worth that. Well, unless of course there's an image of the Virgin Mary on it.

Kevin
[/quote]

LOL, very true.

Think I could get Scotty to stamp the Virgin Mary on my putter? I bet I could get $1.2 million for it!

[texas-ex]

[quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1868129' date='Aug 6 2009, 07:43 AM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1867906' date='Aug 6 2009, 12:08 AM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1867854' date='Aug 5 2009, 10:05 PM']1) I am not moving goal posts. I am rebutting your response to cast putters. You stated that all the cast putters Cameron made has a rough finish. Well, yes, the Anser reproductions he made for Elkington, Love, Duval, and others, had this rough, sand cast appearance. That said, I just mentioned that there are casting processes that will leave no rough finish. I will even go on to say that if there are visible mill marks on a wax mold, the ceramic casted molds will even pick that up in the process and produce the milling (somewhat) in the casting.

By the way, I have witness the casting process at Dolphin Manufacturing first hand and seen the before and after products. Have you been to a golf club casting facility and seen this for yourself? Believe me, casting is a very exact science and you would be amazed in what can be done with a "rough" casting. Believe me, it is not so rough.[/quote]

My point was that the examples of cast Titleist putters from the same era that Tiger's would have been made (around 1998) are all very low quality castings. It's not logical to assume that he would make a junky looking putter for Davis Love and a great one for Tiger. If anything DL3 is more in Scotty's camp than Tiger.

[/quote]

Biscuity, you really do not understand the science of casting, do you? The castings that Cameron made that emulated the Ping Scottsdale were done so to replicate the conditions that the Scottsdales were originally made, including metal composition and the sand cast impressions in the cavity. Sand casting is a method still employed today and is an excellent means of casting. The sand is an oil based sand which lends itself to forming around a mold and is a perfectly fine method. Besides, some people prefer the rough cavity look as these replicate the original Scottsdale Anser. These were made in the mid 90s just after Cameron signed with Titleist, not late 90s of Tiger's era. Tiger wanted an very close copy of the Ping Anser 2 he was using and, last I saw, the Ping Anser 2 is not a rough cast putter, it is a smooth cast putter, made by the casting technology I mentioned earlier at the very same plant I was at. That is what Tiger wanted and that is what Cameron produced. That is, of course, if Cameron actually made Tiger's gamer by casting it. Who knows how the putter was actually made. But to use your logic, since Cameron cannot produce a suitable replacement for Tiger's putter with the CNC technology of today and that, [i]"modern technology would allow him to easily do a 3D scan and replicate the exact shape"[/i], then why does Tiger say that his backup is a Nike? Are we to ignore what Tiger says and believe he is not telling the truth?

Then comes my other question. If Tiger's putter was actually cast, who did it? Last I saw from pictures from Cameron's studio, he is not set up to cast using ceramic slurry as Dolphin Manufacturing is. Could it be assumed that if Tiger's putter was actually cast by some contracted vendor, possibly Dolphin? If Tiger's putter is actually cast then it appears that this is another case of propaganda from the Cameron camp to make other's believe the putter was made in the Studio. Just a thought.
[/quote]

There is a facility WITHIN 2 MILES of my shop that does precision casting of stainless steel (303, 304, 316, 17-4 etc). I "skim" mill and "skim" turn their parts to within tolerance all the time. We have not yet ran into any differences between billet and cast materials. Suppliers choose to cast parts because in the long run it's cheaper to create a shape closer to the finished product. Now if you think about it, billet flat bar is "cast" too. I know, crazy. The steel is melted and poured into a form which is then cooled and pushed through an extrusion die to get to the bar shape that you want. Whoa.

Once again, this may or may not have anything to do with putters.

[wentorf11]

[quote name='texas-ex' post='1868390' date='Aug 6 2009, 09:41 AM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1868129' date='Aug 6 2009, 07:43 AM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1867906' date='Aug 6 2009, 12:08 AM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1867854' date='Aug 5 2009, 10:05 PM']1) I am not moving goal posts. I am rebutting your response to cast putters. You stated that all the cast putters Cameron made has a rough finish. Well, yes, the Anser reproductions he made for Elkington, Love, Duval, and others, had this rough, sand cast appearance. That said, I just mentioned that there are casting processes that will leave no rough finish. I will even go on to say that if there are visible mill marks on a wax mold, the ceramic casted molds will even pick that up in the process and produce the milling (somewhat) in the casting.

By the way, I have witness the casting process at Dolphin Manufacturing first hand and seen the before and after products. Have you been to a golf club casting facility and seen this for yourself? Believe me, casting is a very exact science and you would be amazed in what can be done with a "rough" casting. Believe me, it is not so rough.[/quote]

My point was that the examples of cast Titleist putters from the same era that Tiger's would have been made (around 1998) are all very low quality castings. It's not logical to assume that he would make a junky looking putter for Davis Love and a great one for Tiger. If anything DL3 is more in Scotty's camp than Tiger.

[/quote]

Biscuity, you really do not understand the science of casting, do you? The castings that Cameron made that emulated the Ping Scottsdale were done so to replicate the conditions that the Scottsdales were originally made, including metal composition and the sand cast impressions in the cavity. Sand casting is a method still employed today and is an excellent means of casting. The sand is an oil based sand which lends itself to forming around a mold and is a perfectly fine method. Besides, some people prefer the rough cavity look as these replicate the original Scottsdale Anser. These were made in the mid 90s just after Cameron signed with Titleist, not late 90s of Tiger's era. Tiger wanted an very close copy of the Ping Anser 2 he was using and, last I saw, the Ping Anser 2 is not a rough cast putter, it is a smooth cast putter, made by the casting technology I mentioned earlier at the very same plant I was at. That is what Tiger wanted and that is what Cameron produced. That is, of course, if Cameron actually made Tiger's gamer by casting it. Who knows how the putter was actually made. But to use your logic, since Cameron cannot produce a suitable replacement for Tiger's putter with the CNC technology of today and that, [i]"modern technology would allow him to easily do a 3D scan and replicate the exact shape"[/i], then why does Tiger say that his backup is a Nike? Are we to ignore what Tiger says and believe he is not telling the truth?

Then comes my other question. If Tiger's putter was actually cast, who did it? Last I saw from pictures from Cameron's studio, he is not set up to cast using ceramic slurry as Dolphin Manufacturing is. Could it be assumed that if Tiger's putter was actually cast by some contracted vendor, possibly Dolphin? If Tiger's putter is actually cast then it appears that this is another case of propaganda from the Cameron camp to make other's believe the putter was made in the Studio. Just a thought.
[/quote]

There is a facility WITHIN 2 MILES of my shop that does precision casting of stainless steel (303, 304, 316, 17-4 etc). I "skim" mill and "skim" turn their parts to within tolerance all the time. We have not yet ran into any differences between billet and cast materials. Suppliers choose to cast parts because in the long run it's cheaper to create a shape closer to the finished product. Now if you think about it, billet flat bar is "cast" too. I know, crazy. The steel is melted and poured into a form which is then cooled and pushed through an extrusion die to get to the bar shape that you want. Whoa.

Once again, this may or may not have anything to do with putters.
[/quote]

Texas,

Sound like you know what you're talking about...So would it be fairly easy to cast a putter 2-3% larger in all dimensions and then skim mill that 2-3% away and have the "cast" putter look exactly like a putter that was milled from a billet?

Seems fairly straight, forward to me.

[texas-ex]

[quote name='wentorf11' post='1868404' date='Aug 6 2009, 09:50 AM'][quote name='texas-ex' post='1868390' date='Aug 6 2009, 09:41 AM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1868129' date='Aug 6 2009, 07:43 AM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1867906' date='Aug 6 2009, 12:08 AM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1867854' date='Aug 5 2009, 10:05 PM']1) I am not moving goal posts. I am rebutting your response to cast putters. You stated that all the cast putters Cameron made has a rough finish. Well, yes, the Anser reproductions he made for Elkington, Love, Duval, and others, had this rough, sand cast appearance. That said, I just mentioned that there are casting processes that will leave no rough finish. I will even go on to say that if there are visible mill marks on a wax mold, the ceramic casted molds will even pick that up in the process and produce the milling (somewhat) in the casting.

By the way, I have witness the casting process at Dolphin Manufacturing first hand and seen the before and after products. Have you been to a golf club casting facility and seen this for yourself? Believe me, casting is a very exact science and you would be amazed in what can be done with a "rough" casting. Believe me, it is not so rough.[/quote]

My point was that the examples of cast Titleist putters from the same era that Tiger's would have been made (around 1998) are all very low quality castings. It's not logical to assume that he would make a junky looking putter for Davis Love and a great one for Tiger. If anything DL3 is more in Scotty's camp than Tiger.

[/quote]

Biscuity, you really do not understand the science of casting, do you? The castings that Cameron made that emulated the Ping Scottsdale were done so to replicate the conditions that the Scottsdales were originally made, including metal composition and the sand cast impressions in the cavity. Sand casting is a method still employed today and is an excellent means of casting. The sand is an oil based sand which lends itself to forming around a mold and is a perfectly fine method. Besides, some people prefer the rough cavity look as these replicate the original Scottsdale Anser. These were made in the mid 90s just after Cameron signed with Titleist, not late 90s of Tiger's era. Tiger wanted an very close copy of the Ping Anser 2 he was using and, last I saw, the Ping Anser 2 is not a rough cast putter, it is a smooth cast putter, made by the casting technology I mentioned earlier at the very same plant I was at. That is what Tiger wanted and that is what Cameron produced. That is, of course, if Cameron actually made Tiger's gamer by casting it. Who knows how the putter was actually made. But to use your logic, since Cameron cannot produce a suitable replacement for Tiger's putter with the CNC technology of today and that, [i]"modern technology would allow him to easily do a 3D scan and replicate the exact shape"[/i], then why does Tiger say that his backup is a Nike? Are we to ignore what Tiger says and believe he is not telling the truth?

Then comes my other question. If Tiger's putter was actually cast, who did it? Last I saw from pictures from Cameron's studio, he is not set up to cast using ceramic slurry as Dolphin Manufacturing is. Could it be assumed that if Tiger's putter was actually cast by some contracted vendor, possibly Dolphin? If Tiger's putter is actually cast then it appears that this is another case of propaganda from the Cameron camp to make other's believe the putter was made in the Studio. Just a thought.
[/quote]

There is a facility WITHIN 2 MILES of my shop that does precision casting of stainless steel (303, 304, 316, 17-4 etc). I "skim" mill and "skim" turn their parts to within tolerance all the time. We have not yet ran into any differences between billet and cast materials. Suppliers choose to cast parts because in the long run it's cheaper to create a shape closer to the finished product. Now if you think about it, billet flat bar is "cast" too. I know, crazy. The steel is melted and poured into a form which is then cooled and pushed through an extrusion die to get to the bar shape that you want. Whoa.

Once again, this may or may not have anything to do with putters.
[/quote]

Texas,

Sound like you know what you're talking about...So would it be fairly easy to cast a putter 2-3% larger in all dimensions and then skim mill that 2-3% away and have the "cast" putter look exactly like a putter that was milled from a billet?

Seems fairly straight, forward to me.
[/quote]

Once you have the CNC program to cut a putter from a block then the rest is easy. You just adjust your offsets for the semi-finished forged or cast raw shape. There was another shop here in Houston that was doing the millwork for the old Dogleg Right putters a few years back. I know those were either cast or forged rough -- believe it was cast somewhere in Asia. You couldn't tell they weren't cut from a flat bar.

In my opinion, whether the rest of the Studio Stainless line was cast or Tiger's putter was a one-off doesn't matter. If they all were cast, then the quality was very good, so much so that we are still talking about it. The stainless castings I machine for Schlumberger have gone through more rigorous testing than any putter ever will. If the preeminant oilfield services company OK's cast parts to go downhole and hold $100,000 worth of electronics safely, who am I to b**** about a putter?

If Tiger's putter is a true single cast putter then I can see how Scotty would say that the putter cost $7000 to make. Hell, I couldn't do it for that in my shop. Regardless, Tiger likes it. End of story.

I owned the sand cast Newport made for Elkington. He gave it to me after a charity tournament in which we played together. It is a ROUGH piece. Obviously it was done by some shop then Scotty milled the face flat and added sight lines and stampings.

[wentorf11]

[quote name='texas-ex' post='1868474' date='Aug 6 2009, 10:24 AM']Once you have the CNC program to cut a putter from a block then the rest is easy. You just adjust your offsets for the semi-finished forged or cast raw shape. There was another shop here in Houston that was doing the millwork for the old Dogleg Right putters a few years back. I know those were either cast or forged rough -- believe it was cast somewhere in Asia. You couldn't tell they weren't cut from a flat bar.

In my opinion, whether the rest of the Studio Stainless line was cast or Tiger's putter was a one-off doesn't matter. If they all were cast, then the quality was very good, so much so that we are still talking about it. The stainless castings I machine for Schlumberger have gone through more rigorous testing than any putter ever will. If the preeminant oilfield services company OK's cast parts to go downhole and hold $100,000 worth of electronics safely, who am I to b**** about a putter?

If Tiger's putter is a true single cast putter then I can see how Scotty would say that the putter cost $7000 to make. Hell, I couldn't do it for that in my shop. Regardless, Tiger likes it. End of story.

I [size=7][color="#ff0000"]owned[/color][/size] the sand cast Newport made for Elkington. He gave it to me after a charity tournament in which we played together. It is a ROUGH piece. Obviously it was done by some shop then Scotty milled the face flat and added sight lines and stampings.[/quote]

That's kind of what I thought, does matter what the raw material is you just need to do the milling...

You say owned...so you don't have Elk's putter anymore! How did that one get away?

[add1]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1867906' date='Aug 6 2009, 02:08 AM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1867854' date='Aug 5 2009, 10:05 PM']1) I am not moving goal posts. I am rebutting your response to cast putters. You stated that all the cast putters Cameron made has a rough finish. Well, yes, the Anser reproductions he made for Elkington, Love, Duval, and others, had this rough, sand cast appearance. That said, I just mentioned that there are casting processes that will leave no rough finish. I will even go on to say that if there are visible mill marks on a wax mold, the ceramic casted molds will even pick that up in the process and produce the milling (somewhat) in the casting.

By the way, I have witness the casting process at Dolphin Manufacturing first hand and seen the before and after products. Have you been to a golf club casting facility and seen this for yourself? Believe me, casting is a very exact science and you would be amazed in what can be done with a "rough" casting. Believe me, it is not so rough.[/quote]

My point was that the examples of cast Titleist putters from the same era that Tiger's would have been made (around 1998) are all very low quality castings. It's not logical to assume that he would make a junky looking putter for Davis Love and a great one for Tiger. If anything DL3 is more in Scotty's camp than Tiger.


[quote]2) And you believe everything Cameron states on his website? Wasn't there a question about the Mini putter that was stated on his website that has caused this thread to go over 1700 posts? Oy vey! I would bet that Cameron would put his name on a banana on a stick if Tiger said that is what he wanted to putt with. Tiger is Cameron's single biggest marketing tool. How many people want a Cameron putter because Tiger putts with one. A LOT. Fact of the matter is that Tiger sells. What ever he plays, people want, at least the new found golfer. Cameron is the master sales marketing machine and he will do anything to sell his product. Poster anyone?[/quote]

When he goes to the trouble to state a policy on his web site I believe him. Others discount everything he says as a lies because there is a controversy over "1 of 5" or "fewer than 5". Fewer than 5 is not a lie until someone shows photos of more than 5 completed Classic Mini putters. So far we've only seen photos of 3.

[quote]3) Cameron has stated that he makes one or two backups for Tiger each year. This is a fact. If so, that means there are about 20 backups made (10 years now with this gamer). It has also been stated that Tiger has given a few away as gifts. It is no secret that Tiger has rejected many Cameron backups. How the heck do you think one showed up at AOP, or in Eddie Gomez's possession, or in the hands of other collectors. There was even a sale of a Tiger backup a couple of years ago in Kansas City that went for around (reportedly) $30K - $35K. How about the story about Tiger rejecting one of the backups because the site dot was the width of a piece of paper too big. He looked at it and instantly rejected it. Case closed on that putter.

If Cameron had a CNC program for Tiger's actual putter don't you think that Tiger would not have to reject so many of them. Also, Tiger has stated that his backup is a Nike, not a Cameron. So who are we to believe?[/quote]

Actually the number of back-ups is 3-5 each year. But on many of those Scotty pushes the envelope and tries to sneak in some of his new features like a high toe. Tiger likes what he has and he probably has several back-ups that are exactly the way he wants them. In that scenario it's perfectly understandable that he rejects putters and gives them to friends. Eddie Gomez's putter has some significant differences to Tigers, most noticeable is the absence of a milled undercut on the back of the face. It's a great looking putter though. I'd game it in a heartbeat, but I can also see why Tiger might not replace his old faithful with it.

[attachment=446068:TW_v_golfereddie.jpg]
[/quote]
The actual number of back ups 3-5 each year (A BACK UP IS AN EXACT REPLICA) The only envelope being pushed would have a wad of cash inside it.Come on if I played a putter for 11 years I would tell if a back up had a high toe.Why would Tiger need more back ups, he would at best need 2-3.Just because SC gives him x number of putters each year does not make them back ups.Please do not belive everything posted on a website.Websites put out infomation they want you to read not the absolute truth.ITS CALLED MARKETING. [b]No offence is meant to this site by the last statement just trying to get the point across[/b]I'm sure everything posted here is true.

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1868271' date='Aug 6 2009, 07:49 AM'][quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1868129' date='Aug 6 2009, 05:43 AM']Biscuity, you really do not understand the science of casting, do you? The castings that Cameron made that emulated the Ping Scottsdale were done so to replicate the conditions that the Scottsdales were originally made, including metal composition and the sand cast impressions in the cavity. Sand casting is a method still employed today and is an excellent means of casting. The sand is an oil based sand which lends itself to forming around a mold and is a perfectly fine method. Besides, some people prefer the rough cavity look as these replicate the original Scottsdale Anser. These were made in the mid 90s just after Cameron signed with Titleist, not late 90s of Tiger's era. Tiger wanted an very close copy of the Ping Anser 2 he was using and, last I saw, the Ping Anser 2 is not a rough cast putter, it is a smooth cast putter, made by the casting technology I mentioned earlier at the very same plant I was at. That is what Tiger wanted and that is what Cameron produced. That is, of course, if Cameron actually made Tiger's gamer by casting it. Who knows how the putter was actually made. But to use your logic, since Cameron cannot produce a suitable replacement for Tiger's putter with the CNC technology of today and that, [i]"modern technology would allow him to easily do a 3D scan and replicate the exact shape"[/i], then why does Tiger say that his backup is a Nike? Are we to ignore what Tiger says and believe he is not telling the truth?

Then comes my other question. If Tiger's putter was actually cast, who did it? Last I saw from pictures from Cameron's studio, he is not set up to cast using ceramic slurry as Dolphin Manufacturing is. Could it be assumed that if Tiger's putter was actually cast by some contracted vendor, possibly Dolphin? If Tiger's putter is actually cast then it appears that this is another case of propaganda from the Cameron camp to make other's believe the putter was made in the Studio. Just a thought.[/quote]

I understand casting enough to know that none of the cast Titleist putters look even remotely similar to the putter that Tiger uses. If it is a casting it is on a much higher level than anything they cast previously. Possible, but not likely, especially after I showed several milled versions that are almost identical to Tiger's putter.
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You still don't get it. The reason for the rough cast was to produce a putter that was aesthetically the same as the Scottsdale Anser. These were people who gamed either a Scottsdale Anser, Karsten CO Anser, or Dalehead Anser , or any combination. These were players that wanted the [u]same[/u] look. This [b][u][size=4]IS[/size][/u][/b] why the cast putters that you showed us look the way they do. This is also why that a cast putter that Tiger has (if he indeed has one) does not look the way it does. Maybe the original, non-skimmed milled version did look like this but after the milling it would look exactly like a CNC version. The difference is the metallurgical properties would be different and that is the basis of my position. Heck, even Jason Gore said he likes the feel of a cast putter and has purchased one of the original Titleist / Cameron cast putters. The problem is that it did not fit his eye.