Scotty Cameron Classic Mini

[RobotDoctor]

I think it would be interesting to see the chemical analysis report for GSS and see how this stainless steel compares to off the shelf 303 or 304 stainless. I think $7,000 for a billet of steel is a stretch, let alone the cost for one putter. What are the dimensions Cameron specifies for a single billet that is used on a CNC machine? 5" x 5" x 1.5" Is this correct? I know this is the dimension Byron Morgan uses so I assume this is a standard dimension (or close to a standard).

[stage1350]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1863249' date='Aug 4 2009, 07:36 AM']Thanks for the AutoWeek link, "This story comes from the 03/24/08 issue of AutoWeek magazine."

"...design influence on Cameron, who began making putters in his father's garage at age nine."

= Established Circa 1971


"Detail reigns at the Scotty Cameron Putter Studio and Performance Shop near Carlsbad, just north of San Diego, California. Inside a two-level building, 19 people design prototypes,..."

Dang, I thought Cameron designed the putters?

"Woods' putter, a Cameron Newport 2 GSS, is made from German stainless steel--"the best in the world," Cameron said. The steel alone costs $7,000."

Any lay person reading this would think that the steel used to make the one putter costs $7,000. That is "complete BS". Maybe getting an order of bar stock of "GSS" that makes a multitude of putters costs $7,000 but the steel for one putter might costs a couple of hundred dollars at the most. The Woods putter was made in 1998/99 and Cameron wants people to think the steel used to make that putter cost $7,000 10 years ago, please.

""The head, the main performance part, is made right here, two miles away," Cameron said of the Titleist manufacturing facility, which employs 800 people."

Is the facility owned by Titleist? I thought the place where the heads were milled were owned by third parties, not Cameron/Titleist/Acushnet?[/quote]
The problem with quoting articles, is that it gives the apologists another way out. First they threw the webmaster under the bus. What's it going to be this time? The reporter taking liberties with the story?

$7000 for the steel in Tiger's putter? I don't think so. If it were platinum, maybe. So either Scotty or the reporter is full of sh!t. Anyone want to guess who came up with $7000?

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='stage1350' post='1863278' date='Aug 4 2009, 06:54 AM'][quote name='foregasim' post='1863249' date='Aug 4 2009, 07:36 AM']Thanks for the AutoWeek link, "This story comes from the 03/24/08 issue of AutoWeek magazine."

"...design influence on Cameron, who began making putters in his father's garage at age nine."

= Established Circa 1971


"Detail reigns at the Scotty Cameron Putter Studio and Performance Shop near Carlsbad, just north of San Diego, California. Inside a two-level building, 19 people design prototypes,..."

Dang, I thought Cameron designed the putters?

"Woods' putter, a Cameron Newport 2 GSS, is made from German stainless steel--"the best in the world," Cameron said. The steel alone costs $7,000."

Any lay person reading this would think that the steel used to make the one putter costs $7,000. That is "complete BS". Maybe getting an order of bar stock of "GSS" that makes a multitude of putters costs $7,000 but the steel for one putter might costs a couple of hundred dollars at the most. The Woods putter was made in 1998/99 and Cameron wants people to think the steel used to make that putter cost $7,000 10 years ago, please.

""The head, the main performance part, is made right here, two miles away," Cameron said of the Titleist manufacturing facility, which employs 800 people."

Is the facility owned by Titleist? I thought the place where the heads were milled were owned by third parties, not Cameron/Titleist/Acushnet?[/quote]
The problem with quoting articles, is that it gives the apologists another way out. First they threw the webmaster under the bus. What's it going to be this time? The reporter taking liberties with the story?

$7000 for the steel in Tiger's putter? I don't think so. If it were platinum, maybe. So either Scotty or the reporter is full of sh!t. Anyone want to guess who came up with $7000?
[/quote]

Maybe $7,000 is the cost for all the reproduction putters Cameron has made for Tiger that Tiger has rejected.

[randomhero1090]

So I guess after a week's vacation, I am still in the same boat. SC didn't mill my putter. Someone pushed a button in a factory. I'm OK with that because I like the putter.

However, where I sense the frustration of many is more apparent.... There is a LOT of "different" information out there about SC and the putters with the SC name. When you pay top dollar for a "custom" SC, you should know damn well who made it and where it was made. Hell, I should be able to find out where my OTR putter was made. Sounds like this question is harder to answer than it should be.

[jick]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1862505' date='Aug 4 2009, 09:40 AM'][quote name='xxio' post='1862409' date='Aug 3 2009, 04:59 PM']AFAIK Tiger has never said he "is better than Jack" or "more charismatic than Arnie" or that "he can feel the jealousy of Phil Mickelson and Ernie Els".

In public or in print anyway.[/quote]


I think the story of Tiger posting a list of Jack's major wins on his wall is fairly well known. His goal is to improve on Jack's record.
[/quote]

What about Cameron's statement that he is on the verge of something that "will alter the future of putting and markedly improve the ability of golfers as a whole"?

I guess that something never arrived.

Again, Cameron should let time be the judge and not get caught with his foot in his mouth.

Karsten never said he will revolutionize putting when he invented the Anser. Tiger never said he will alter the future of the game and improve the work ethic of his peers - although he seems to be doing that now.

None of the greats ever accused their peers of jealousy, or during their active years made claims of "paving the way" for other to follow them and that they are owed a debt of gratitude.

For someone who farms out his production work and still puts his name on it, Cameron is sure full of it.

[xxio]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1862695' date='Aug 4 2009, 10:03 AM'][quote name='xxio' post='1862619' date='Aug 3 2009, 06:31 PM']In his mind SC has surpassed the originals and "can feel the jealousy". If you don't mind that the guy is an ego maniac, looks down at others and think they owe him something, good for you. I'd rather have a putter made by a puttermaker who relies on the quality of his product and the goodwill of his name and relationships.

TW chasing 18. That is a goal he has set. We don't know what he will say if and when he beats that record but I hardly think he will say for himself "I'm better than Jack". He will have the class to have others say it for him.[/quote]


Scotty has never said that he is "Better" than Solheim or Mills.

"My idea was to pick up where Mills and Solheim left off, always keeping their standards of craftsmanship and innovation," he says. "Have I borrowed from them? You'd better believe it. My whole idea was to improve on their work."
[/quote]


Like I said if you like the ego maniac who can feel the jealousy and feels that the others owe him something good for you. Add that he charges $65 for a service that is based on a faulty memory (just to keep my post related to the topic). There are other puttermakers with the same/better quality product without having to give in to Scotty's arrogance. I'd rather give my money to them.

[biscuity]

[quote name='randomhero1090' post='1863300' date='Aug 4 2009, 06:04 AM']So I guess after a week's vacation, I am still in the same boat. SC didn't mill my putter. Someone pushed a button in a factory. I'm OK with that because I like the putter.

However, where I sense the frustration of many is more apparent.... There is a LOT of "different" information out there about SC and the putters with the SC name. When you pay top dollar for a "custom" SC, you should know damn well who made it and where it was made. Hell, I should be able to find out where my OTR putter was made. Sounds like this question is harder to answer than it should be.[/quote]

To find out who/where/how your OTR putter is made you go to Scotty's web site, click here: [url="http://www.scottycameron.com/studio/videos.aspx"]http://www.scottycameron.com/studio/videos.aspx[/url]

Watch the video entitled "Making the Studio Select"

You'll see that it's made on a CNC mill in a large manufacturing facility. It's listed as "Made in America" but the actual name/location of the milling facility is not given, that is rarely disclosed by large companies (try finding the name/address of the factory that produced the clubs listed in your WITB). The machine operator was the guy who pressed the button to make it. So in the case of your OTR SS NP2, Scotty designed it and had it manufactured to his specifications at a milling facility in California.

Now if you're talking about a "custom" Scotty that's a little different. From the interviews and his web site you can learn that the heads are rarely milled by hand these days. I believe the most recent "hand milled" Scotty is more than a decade old. Rather than mill them by hand the custom putters start out as a CNC head. Then they are hand finished using a grinder, mill, sander, welder, drill press etc to customize them. They manufacture a lot of custom putters, so you have to look closely to see if Scotty did the work himself. In the case of the Circle T putters it's not likely that Scotty works on them himself. Scotty says he personally attends to the needs of the top 50 touring pros, so it's likely that he would be the one who hand finishes their putters even if they look like a relatively standard Circle T. When you start getting into the Garage range of putters then it's more likely that Scotty does the hand finishing himself. His web site quotes him as saying that working on putters in his Studio is one of his favorite things to do. He's shown several times in the videos doing hands-on work. He obviously knows how to make custom putters and enjoys the process. But there's no way he personally works on more than a few hundred of the 200,000 Scotty Cameron putters produced each year.

[tpariff]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1862832' date='Aug 3 2009, 11:13 PM'][quote name='dwboston' post='1862794' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:50 PM']We're not talking about "dozens of CEO's". We're talking about one "master putter designer" with a massive ego who really wants people to believe that a third-party manufacturer is the "Scotty Cameron Putter Studio".

Again, no one really cares when companies outsource production, so why can't Cameron admit it? Why the elaborate fiction that he's producing putters in his "Studio"? It's the obfuscation that bothers people, not the actual practice. If you can't see that then you're being willfully obtuse.[/quote]

In case you missed it, here is where Scotty is quoted in the Autoweek article that the putters are not made in the Putter Studio:

[b]"The head, the main performance part, is made right here, two miles away," Cameron said of the Titleist manufacturing facility, which employs 800 people. "The shaft is made in Mississippi, [u]the grip in North Carolina[/u]. The cover is made in Arizona[/b][b]."[/b]

When he says "made right here" I take that as "Made in America" because that's one of the main points of the article. He's not saying "made right here in the Putter Studio" because that would directly contradict the "two miles away" comment in the same sentence. That is a newer article than the one where he says 3 plants, so I'll assume that they consolodated their manufacturing operations into one large plant recently.

It is no hidden secret that Scotty Cameron uses vendors to produce his products. He designs them and uses vendors who produce them to his specifications. I've never seen a major manufacturer who lists all of the vendors for their products. If they did it would be a huge and ever-changing list because it is common to use multiple vendors for the same product.

Reference: [url="http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080327/FREE/851820987"]http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti.../FREE/851820987[/url]
[/quote]

Just an FYI...

All Golf Pride grips are made in either Taiwan or Thailand. I know this because I contacted Golf Pride directly and asked if any of the grips are made in the USA. Here's the reply I got from Ms. Cherrie Johnson:

"Hi Kevin,

Sorry, all grips are currently made in Taiwan and Thailand.

Sincerely,

CJ"

That Autoweek article is somewhat dated, but any Golf Pride grip on a Cameron putter today is NOT made in the USA.

I don't really care where the grips are made, but some might.

Kevin

[biscuity]

[quote name='xxio' post='1863435' date='Aug 4 2009, 07:13 AM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1862695' date='Aug 4 2009, 10:03 AM'][quote name='xxio' post='1862619' date='Aug 3 2009, 06:31 PM']In his mind SC has surpassed the originals and "can feel the jealousy". If you don't mind that the guy is an ego maniac, looks down at others and think they owe him something, good for you. I'd rather have a putter made by a puttermaker who relies on the quality of his product and the goodwill of his name and relationships.

TW chasing 18. That is a goal he has set. We don't know what he will say if and when he beats that record but I hardly think he will say for himself "I'm better than Jack". He will have the class to have others say it for him.[/quote]


Scotty has never said that he is "Better" than Solheim or Mills.

"My idea was to pick up where Mills and Solheim left off, always keeping their standards of craftsmanship and innovation," he says. "Have I borrowed from them? You'd better believe it. My whole idea was to improve on their work."
[/quote]


Like I said if you like the ego maniac who can feel the jealousy and feels that the others owe him something good for you. There are other puttermakers with the same/better quality product without having to give in to Scotty's arrogance. I'd rather give my money to them.
[/quote]

I agree. If you don't like a product there are almost always other choices. You can buy whatever makes you happy. Some people would do that and move on. Others would make it their mission to constantly criticize the owner/designer/company/products on forums. That's the part that I don't really agree with. Buy a putter, play golf, be happy.

[xxio]

[quote name='tpariff' post='1863472' date='Aug 4 2009, 10:32 PM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1862832' date='Aug 3 2009, 11:13 PM'][quote name='dwboston' post='1862794' date='Aug 3 2009, 07:50 PM']We're not talking about "dozens of CEO's". We're talking about one "master putter designer" with a massive ego who really wants people to believe that a third-party manufacturer is the "Scotty Cameron Putter Studio".

Again, no one really cares when companies outsource production, so why can't Cameron admit it? Why the elaborate fiction that he's producing putters in his "Studio"? It's the obfuscation that bothers people, not the actual practice. If you can't see that then you're being willfully obtuse.[/quote]

In case you missed it, here is where Scotty is quoted in the Autoweek article that the putters are not made in the Putter Studio:

[b]"The head, the main performance part, is made right here, two miles away," Cameron said of the Titleist manufacturing facility, which employs 800 people. "The shaft is made in Mississippi, [u]the grip in North Carolina[/u]. The cover is made in Arizona[/b][b]."[/b]

When he says "made right here" I take that as "Made in America" because that's one of the main points of the article. He's not saying "made right here in the Putter Studio" because that would directly contradict the "two miles away" comment in the same sentence. That is a newer article than the one where he says 3 plants, so I'll assume that they consolodated their manufacturing operations into one large plant recently.

It is no hidden secret that Scotty Cameron uses vendors to produce his products. He designs them and uses vendors who produce them to his specifications. I've never seen a major manufacturer who lists all of the vendors for their products. If they did it would be a huge and ever-changing list because it is common to use multiple vendors for the same product.

Reference: [url="http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080327/FREE/851820987"]http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/arti.../FREE/851820987[/url]
[/quote]

Just an FYI...

All Golf Pride grips are made in either Taiwan or Thailand. I know this because I contacted Golf Pride directly and asked if any of the grips are made in the USA. Here's the reply I got from Ms. Cherrie Johnson:

"Hi Kevin,

Sorry, all grips are currently made in Taiwan and Thailand.

Sincerely,

CJ"

That Autoweek article is somewhat dated, but any Golf Pride grip on a Cameron putter today is NOT made in the USA.

I don't really care where the grips are made, but some might.

Kevin
[/quote]

Faulty memory I guess on Cameron's part. Good thing it is just the actual grip model and not where it is made that he bases his COAs on.

[psd]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1863249' date='Aug 4 2009, 08:36 AM']Thanks for the AutoWeek link, "This story comes from the 03/24/08 issue of AutoWeek magazine."

"...design influence on Cameron, who began making putters in his father's garage at age nine."

= Established Circa 1971


"Detail reigns at the Scotty Cameron Putter Studio and Performance Shop near Carlsbad, just north of San Diego, California. Inside a two-level building, 19 people design prototypes,..."

[b]Dang, I thought Cameron designed the putters?
[/b]
"Woods' putter, a Cameron Newport 2 GSS, is made from German stainless steel--"the best in the world," Cameron said. The steel alone costs $7,000."

Any lay person reading this would think that the steel used to make the one putter costs $7,000. That is "complete BS". Maybe getting an order of bar stock of "GSS" that makes a multitude of putters costs $7,000 but the steel for one putter might costs a couple of hundred dollars at the most. The Woods putter was made in 1998/99 and Cameron wants people to think the steel used to make that putter cost $7,000 10 years ago, please.

""The head, the main performance part, is made right here, two miles away," Cameron said of the Titleist manufacturing facility, which employs 800 people."

Is the facility owned by Titleist? I thought the place where the heads were milled were owned by third parties, not Cameron/Titleist/Acushnet?[/quote]

Re: what is emboldened above. Full quote:
Inside a two-level building, 19 people design prototypes, T-shirts and other clothing items and an array of golf accessories. They also tend to Club Cameron, a network of Cameron Crazies.

[scottym]

My home course is a Jack Nicklaus Design course.



His team of engineers, architects, and designers did all the work.

Jack visited the site just once .........on opening day.

How dare Jack call himself a golf course designer. I'll bet he didn't even personally draw up the plans.

What a Liar he is.

[goinglow72]

[quote name='scottym' post='1864674' date='Aug 4 2009, 05:28 PM']My home course is a Jack Nicklaus Design course.



His team of engineers, architects, and designers did all the work.

Jack visited the site just once .........on opening day.

How dare Jack call himself a golf course designer. I'll bet he didn't even personally draw up the plans.

What a Liar he is.

[/quote]

Big difference between "Jack Nicklaus Deisgn" and "designed by Jack Nicklaus"..... I would bet he made more than one trip as well. The two courses I have been a member at that he actually "designed"....he did a walk through on the property before ground breaking and then showed back up opening day.

I know you guys usually need more than one reference...so here's you another!
BIG difference in "golf professional" and "Professional Golfer" as well...

[xxio]

I used to be a member at 2 different course. Both Nickluas Design made but only one was deemed to be worthy to be a JN signature design because he supposedly did all the design himself. The other course that his son was heavily involved in the design was a Nicklaus design but not a Jack Nicklaus signature design. Maybe Cameron should make Cameron Designs and have only the putters designed by him as Scotty Cameron. Nicklaus puts a distinction when he designs by himself.

biscuity,

It could be "their mission" to criticize but that is their right as long as they can provide it in a clear and rationale manner. It is your right to "defend" as well in a clear and rationale manner is it not? You cannot deny them their right to criticize without denying your own right to open this thread and defend. This is after all a discussion board and not a pure fan site.

[FightingScot93]

Does TCC or the official Cameron site use Cameron Crazies on their sites? I ask because IIRC "Cameron Crazies" is a registered trademark of Duke University or Nike.

[biscuity]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1864286' date='Aug 4 2009, 12:30 PM']Dang, I thought Cameron designed those things. He is after all considered to be a designer and an artist, right?

Or maybe now he can blame one of the 19 staff people for using the designs of others when people complain that the design was not original.

I wonder if these people work in a room named "inspiration"? After all, we always here that Cameron received inspiration from this or that to come up with a detail or design.[/quote]

CAD -- Computer Aided [b]Design[/b]

I believe the term is "CAD Monkey" for someone who takes the designer's drawings and creates a CAD file. Although where I work they're called [i]CAD Beyotches[/i].

See Step 2: [url="http://golf.mizunoeurope.com/resources/showreview/jan2008/090_TG_237.jpg/"]How to Make a Putter[/url]

---

FYI, a 5lb block of platinum would cost $86,450.

---

I'm not denying anyone the right to spend a lot of time bashing on forums. I just think it's a lame waste of time.

[xxio]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1865161' date='Aug 5 2009, 10:10 AM']I'm not denying anyone the right to spend a lot of time bashing on forums. I just think it's a lame waste of time.[/quote]


You use the term bashing again. Maybe there are few posts that toe the line ON BOTH ides. Maybe you should call out the other "defenders" that bash as well?

For someone who thinks it's a lame waste of time you have spent more than 50% of your total posts in this topic. I would think someone who thinks it's a waste of time would just not bother, rather then take all the effort you have done to do GOOD and proper research in the defense of your position. I in fact applaud all the links that you have posted in the last few pages. It is the "proof" and rationale for your stance that posters had been previously asking. If you think that is lame and a waste of time, I'd hate to think what you lengths you would go to when you think something is worth it.

[sergizmo]

These days, the designer/engineer usually draws the part(s) in CAD themselves. That way they get exactly what they want and don't have to go back and forth 200 times with a CAD guy. I can't imagine the amount of finger pointing that must go on in companies that have separate CAD guys when something goes wrong.

BB is probably so busy with managing the other aspects of his shop (defense contracts) that there isn't much time to spend in CAD.

[tpariff]

What's up with the "bashing" and "hating" terminology? It permeates our culture. Is it "bashing" or "hating" if it's the truth? Is it "bashing" or "hating" if someone was once closely tied to a product, person, situation, etc and subsequently blows a whistle?

Several of the guys who have posted here were VERY involved in the Cameron world. They're telling their stories. It's kinda like the people who have met a certain athlete, celebrity, etc and say that person is a jerk. It could be true, yet some wish to call it "bashing" or "hating." I just don't understand it.

I'm PO'd at my cable company now because I've had intermittent cable, phone and internet service for over a month. They've been to my house five times to fix it. Would I be "bashing" them if I posted my story about the poor service? I certainly hope not.

Kevin

[tpariff]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1865232' date='Aug 4 2009, 10:39 PM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1865161' date='Aug 4 2009, 10:10 PM'][quote name='foregasim' post='1864286' date='Aug 4 2009, 12:30 PM']Dang, I thought Cameron designed those things. He is after all considered to be a designer and an artist, right?

Or maybe now he can blame one of the 19 staff people for using the designs of others when people complain that the design was not original.

I wonder if these people work in a room named "inspiration"? After all, we always here that Cameron received inspiration from this or that to come up with a detail or design.[/quote]

CAD -- Computer Aided [b]Design[/b]

I believe the term is "CAD Monkey" for someone who takes the designer's drawings and creates a CAD file. Although where I work they're called [i]CAD Beyotches[/i].

See Step 2: [url="http://golf.mizunoeurope.com/resources/showreview/jan2008/090_TG_237.jpg/"]How to Make a Putter[/url]

---

FYI, a 5lb block of platinum would cost $86,450.

---

I'm not denying anyone the right to spend a lot of time bashing on forums. I just think it's a lame waste of time.
[/quote]


What does any of what I posted and you quoted have to do with what you posted?

Are you saying that Cameron is a CAD Monkey?

I never mentioned platinum.

Tigers putter weighs approximately 327 grams or .7187 pounds. Cameron said that the steel for Tigers putter cost $7,000. That means that Cameron is claiming that GSS steel costs him $9,739 a pound or $608 an ounce in 1998/98. At that time that was over 2 times the price of 24k gold. Oh yea, it was about 1.5 times the price of platinum at the time.
[/quote]

If that's the case, then how can he sell a Studio Style putter for $300? It has a GSS insert. Let's assume the above calculation is correct and that the insert is just 10 grams. That would equal $214 in GSS just for the insert.

WOW!

Kevin

[xxio]

[quote name='tpariff' post='1865248' date='Aug 5 2009, 10:46 AM']If that's the case, then how can he sell a Studio Style putter for $300? It has a GSS insert. Let's assume the above calculation is correct and that the insert is just 10 grams. That would equal $214 in GSS just for the insert.

WOW!

Kevin[/quote]


I'm going to order all the remaining inventory of Studio Styles in the Philippines. I have a hidden gold mine!!! Thank you for the information.

[biscuity]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1865232' date='Aug 4 2009, 07:39 PM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1865161' date='Aug 4 2009, 10:10 PM'][quote name='foregasim' post='1864286' date='Aug 4 2009, 12:30 PM']Dang, I thought Cameron designed those things. He is after all considered to be a designer and an artist, right?

Or maybe now he can blame one of the 19 staff people for using the designs of others when people complain that the design was not original.

I wonder if these people work in a room named "inspiration"? After all, we always here that Cameron received inspiration from this or that to come up with a detail or design.[/quote]

CAD -- Computer Aided [b]Design[/b]

I believe the term is "CAD Monkey" for someone who takes the designer's drawings and creates a CAD file. Although where I work they're called [i]CAD Beyotches[/i].

See Step 2: [url="http://golf.mizunoeurope.com/resources/showreview/jan2008/090_TG_237.jpg/"]How to Make a Putter[/url]

---

FYI, a 5lb block of platinum would cost $86,450.

---

I'm not denying anyone the right to spend a lot of time bashing on forums. I just think it's a lame waste of time.
[/quote]

What does any of what I posted and you quoted have to do with what you posted?

Are you saying that Cameron is a CAD Monkey?

I never mentioned platinum but since you brought it up:

Tigers putter weighs approximately 327 grams or .7187 pounds. Cameron said that the steel for Tigers putter cost $7,000. That means that Cameron is claiming that GSS steel costs him $9,739 a pound or $608 an ounce in 1998/99. That is $48,695 for a 5 pound block. At that time that was over 2 times the price of 24k gold. Oh yea, it was about 1.5 times the price of platinum at the time.
[/quote]

You implied that Scotty doesn't design putters because "designers" are on the list of employees at the Putter Studio. I was saying that designers like Scotty and Bettinardi often employ people to assist them in translating their designs into CAD. I gave an example (with link) of that exact scenario from the putter industry.


The little "---" signifies that I moved on from your qoutes to talk about other comments/questions in the thread.

---

RobotDoctor mentioned that the $7000 price might be correct if the metal was platinum. A typical block of steel used to mill putters is around 5lbs so I provided the price of a 5lb block of platinum: $86,450.

I think most people have enough common sense to know that if Scotty paid $7000 for the German Stainless Steel it must have been enough material to make more than one putter. Otherwise he wouldn't sell GSS putters for less than $7000. Perhaps it was $7000 for a gross of billet blocks?

---

xxio mentioned that I can't deny anyone the ability to bash on the forum. I agreed, but pointed out that I think bashing is a waste of time. Others pointed out that I have spent a lot of time defending Scotty in this thread. Personally, I would rather spend my time defending someone than bashing someone. I have never gone into a Bettinardi/Mills/Machine thread and bashed the manufacturer or the fans of those putters. Have any of you gone into Scotty threads and bashed Scotty or his fans? That's the difference. Sure, you have the right to do it, but I think it's uncool and you'll never be able to convince me otherwise.

[Riuzzi]

Thread cleaned up a little, time to get back on topic.

Thank you

[hodges]

[quote name='Riuzzi' post='1865614' date='Aug 5 2009, 02:37 AM']Thread cleaned up a little, time to get back on topic.

Thank you[/quote]


Without being rude, what exactly is the topic now.
The thread started out about the Cameron mini putter.
Now it seems to be about anything of Camerons history.
Then there are also those posting about Bryon and Bettinardi.

Seems like it ran its course awhile ago and is simply an ongoing conversation between 2 groups with opposing views. I am not saying thats bad, I just don't know what the current topic is.
Greg

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1865528' date='Aug 4 2009, 11:06 PM']RobotDoctor mentioned that the $7000 price might be correct if the metal was platinum. A typical block of steel used to mill putters is around 5lbs so I provided the price of a 5lb block of platinum: $86,450.

I think most people have enough common sense to know that if Scotty paid $7000 for the German Stainless Steel it must have been enough material to make more than one putter. Otherwise he wouldn't sell GSS putters for less than $7000. Perhaps it was $7000 for a gross of billet blocks?[/quote]

I was responding to foregasim's post where he had stated that the AutoWeek article quoted Cameron that the price for Tiger's putter was $7,000. I followed up that I wondered what the actual price of a 5" x 5" x 1.5" block of 303 or 304 Stainless Steel would cost. I certainly don't think that it would be $7,000. Then I followed that up with a speculation that this might be the total cost in materials that Cameron has spend trying to make Tiger a reproduction putter of his gamer (a backup). Since Cameron makes a couple of backups for Tiger each year this might be a more reasonable theory.

[quote name='foregasim' post='1863249' date='Aug 4 2009, 06:36 AM']Thanks for the AutoWeek link, "This story comes from the 03/24/08 issue of AutoWeek magazine."
...

"Woods' putter, a Cameron Newport 2 GSS, is made from German stainless steel--"the best in the world," Cameron said. The steel alone costs $7,000."

Any lay person reading this would think that the steel used to make the one putter costs $7,000. That is "complete BS". Maybe getting an order of bar stock of "GSS" that makes a multitude of putters costs $7,000 but the steel for one putter might costs a couple of hundred dollars at the most. The Woods putter was made in 1998/99 and Cameron wants people to think the steel used to make that putter cost $7,000 10 years ago, please.
...[/quote]

[quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1863277' date='Aug 4 2009, 06:54 AM']I think it would be interesting to see the chemical analysis report for GSS and see how this stainless steel compares to off the shelf 303 or 304 stainless. I think $7,000 for a billet of steel is a stretch, let alone the cost for one putter. What are the dimensions Cameron specifies for a single billet that is used on a CNC machine? 5" x 5" x 1.5" Is this correct? I know this is the dimension Byron Morgan uses so I assume this is a standard dimension (or close to a standard).[/quote]

[quote name='RobotDoctor' post='1863281' date='Aug 4 2009, 06:56 AM']Maybe $7,000 is the cost for all the reproduction putters Cameron has made for Tiger that Tiger has rejected.[/quote]

[biscuity]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1865788' date='Aug 5 2009, 05:42 AM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1865528' date='Aug 5 2009, 01:06 AM']You implied that Scotty doesn't design putters because "designers" are on the list of employees at the Putter Studio. I was saying that designers like Scotty and Bettinardi often employ people to assist them in translating their designs into CAD. I gave an example (with link) of that exact scenario from the putter industry.

xxxx

RobotDoctor mentioned that the $7000 price might be correct if the metal was platinum. A typical block of steel used to mill putters is around 5lbs so I provided the price of a 5lb block of platinum: $86,450.

I think most people have enough common sense to know that if Scotty paid $7000 for the German Stainless Steel it must have been enough material to make more than one putter. Otherwise he wouldn't sell GSS putters for less than $7000. Perhaps it was $7000 for a gross of billet blocks?[/quote]
You are the one that has been using the AutoWeek article as if it was the Atlas of all things Cameron. The article states that:

[quote name='AutoWeek']Inside a two-level building, 19 people design prototypes, T-shirts and other clothing items and an array of golf accessories.[/quote]
Note the article does not say that Cameron (your statement) "employ people to assist them in translating their designs into CAD". It specifically states that these 19 people are employed to "design" prototypes and other things. I take that to mean they design putters like the 009 Tour Prototype. The article is about Cameron a putter manufacture. Are there some "prototype" T-Shirts and other clothing out there? Are these 19 designers designing the actual putters or are they the people creating the "artistic" stampings, welding, etc. on the Custom/Tour putters?[/quote]

Actually the article says that the 19 people do a variety of things, including tending to Club Cameron and restoring putters. If you interpret that sentence saying that there are 19 designers then who is doing the other things? If an article says "Inside Yankee Stadium, 60,000 people sell hot dogs, play baseball and watch baseball" does anyone other than you interpret that as saying there are 60,000 hot dog vendors? Scotty is 1 of the 19 people in that building, he might be the only designer for all we know. I'd bet that he has CAD help though, just like Bettinardi uses.

[quote]You are the one that has been using the article for the last 20 pages and I thought it would be interesting to see what the article actually says instead of relying on your interpretation of what was printed.

On that note the article also says:
[quote name='AutoWeek']Woods' putter, a Cameron Newport 2 GSS, is made from German stainless steel--"the best in the world," Cameron said. The steel alone costs $7,000. . For Woods, Cameron makes three putters a year on average.[/quote]
The article is clear that Cameron said the steel for Tigers putter, this special super expensive GSS, costs $7,000. It DOES NOT say that it costs $7,000 to purchase bulk GSS steel. By the way, you do not buy individual billets that are sized to CNC 2 putter from. You purchase long bar stock billet from which you then cut smaller billets from to fit into the CNC mill to make putters from.[/quote]

So we don't know how much GSS he got for $7,000. Like you said, it was probably for a long bar stock would yield several putters. My interpretation was that GSS is German steel that is more expensive than normal SS. But for you it turns into Scotty being purposefully deceptive.

[quote]Obvious people know that GSS does not cost $7,000 for ANY putter but the AutoWeek article is just another example of how Cameron goes into marketing BS mode when he talks about his products, the history of his work, etc. He wants people to remember that GSS is really expensive, $7,000 for a putter, and then those that are paying $5,000+ for a GSS putter will feel like they are getting a deal.[/quote]

Again, if the material costs $7000 then he wouldn't sell a GSS putter for less than that. Most people can figure out that he wasn't saying the metal used in Tiger's putter was $7000.

[quote]Cameron has called himself an artist and this has been picked up by his followers who call him an artist and his work art. It is clear in the AutoWeek article that Cameron slipped up and spilled the beans about who is actually doing the design work. It is not him it is 19 people he has employed. Name me another creative person who claims to be an artist and his work art who has other people doing the design work, then contracts the art work out to third parties for completion, and when it gets customized has people other than himself do the work? Exactly what part of creative and or finishing process does Cameron, the artist, perform? For little pieces of Art that cost $10,000 to $40,000 I would hope that the "artist" had something to do with it other than just approving the use of his name. Oh wait, he does not own his name, Acushnet owns the Scotty Cameron name.

Buying a "Mona Lisa" painted on velvet in Asia from a road side vendor does not mean that you purchased art work done by Leonardo da Vinci.[/quote]

Scotty is an artist, watch him sketch out the putters and t-shirts in his videos. He also can mill a putter by hand if he wants to. His Garage putters are very creative. Many would call them artwork. If you don't like them, fine, but it still doesn't diminish the fact that it takes artistic talent to create them. Scotty is clearly the creative source for his products. Watch his videos and you will see: [url="http://www.scottycameron.com"]www.scottycameron.com[/url]

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='biscuity' post='1866708' date='Aug 5 2009, 03:31 PM'][quote name='foregasim' post='1865788' date='Aug 5 2009, 05:42 AM'][quote name='biscuity' post='1865528' date='Aug 5 2009, 01:06 AM']You implied that Scotty doesn't design putters because "designers" are on the list of employees at the Putter Studio. I was saying that designers like Scotty and Bettinardi often employ people to assist them in translating their designs into CAD. I gave an example (with link) of that exact scenario from the putter industry.

xxxx

RobotDoctor mentioned that the $7000 price might be correct if the metal was platinum. A typical block of steel used to mill putters is around 5lbs so I provided the price of a 5lb block of platinum: $86,450.

I think most people have enough common sense to know that if Scotty paid $7000 for the German Stainless Steel it must have been enough material to make more than one putter. Otherwise he wouldn't sell GSS putters for less than $7000. Perhaps it was $7000 for a gross of billet blocks?[/quote]
You are the one that has been using the AutoWeek article as if it was the Atlas of all things Cameron. The article states that:

[quote name='AutoWeek']Inside a two-level building, 19 people design prototypes, T-shirts and other clothing items and an array of golf accessories.[/quote]
Note the article does not say that Cameron (your statement) "employ people to assist them in translating their designs into CAD". It specifically states that these 19 people are employed to "design" prototypes and other things. I take that to mean they design putters like the 009 Tour Prototype. The article is about Cameron a putter manufacture. Are there some "prototype" T-Shirts and other clothing out there? Are these 19 designers designing the actual putters or are they the people creating the "artistic" stampings, welding, etc. on the Custom/Tour putters?[/quote]

Actually the article says that the 19 people do a variety of things, including tending to Club Cameron and restoring putters. If you interpret that sentence saying that there are 19 designers then who is doing the other things? If an article says "Inside Yankee Stadium, 60,000 people sell hot dogs, play baseball and watch baseball" does anyone other than you interpret that as saying there are 60,000 hot dog vendors? Scotty is 1 of the 19 people in that building, he might be the only designer for all we know. I'd bet that he has CAD help though, just like Bettinardi uses.

[quote]You are the one that has been using the article for the last 20 pages and I thought it would be interesting to see what the article actually says instead of relying on your interpretation of what was printed.

On that note the article also says:
[quote name='AutoWeek']Woods' putter, a Cameron Newport 2 GSS, is made from German stainless steel--"the best in the world," Cameron said. The steel alone costs $7,000. . For Woods, Cameron makes three putters a year on average.[/quote]
The article is clear that Cameron said the steel for Tigers putter, this special super expensive GSS, costs $7,000. It DOES NOT say that it costs $7,000 to purchase bulk GSS steel. By the way, you do not buy individual billets that are sized to CNC 2 putter from. You purchase long bar stock billet from which you then cut smaller billets from to fit into the CNC mill to make putters from.[/quote]

So we don't know how much GSS he got for $7,000. Like you said, it was probably for a long bar stock would yield several putters. My interpretation was that GSS is German steel that is more expensive than normal SS. But for you it turns into Scotty being purposefully deceptive.

[quote]Obvious people know that GSS does not cost $7,000 for ANY putter but the AutoWeek article is just another example of how Cameron goes into marketing BS mode when he talks about his products, the history of his work, etc. He wants people to remember that GSS is really expensive, $7,000 for a putter, and then those that are paying $5,000+ for a GSS putter will feel like they are getting a deal.[/quote]

Again, if the material costs $7000 then he wouldn't sell a GSS putter for less than that. Most people can figure out that he wasn't saying the metal used in Tiger's putter was $7000.

[quote]Cameron has called himself an artist and this has been picked up by his followers who call him an artist and his work art. It is clear in the AutoWeek article that Cameron slipped up and spilled the beans about who is actually doing the design work. It is not him it is 19 people he has employed. Name me another creative person who claims to be an artist and his work art who has other people doing the design work, then contracts the art work out to third parties for completion, and when it gets customized has people other than himself do the work? Exactly what part of creative and or finishing process does Cameron, the artist, perform? For little pieces of Art that cost $10,000 to $40,000 I would hope that the "artist" had something to do with it other than just approving the use of his name. Oh wait, he does not own his name, Acushnet owns the Scotty Cameron name.

Buying a "Mona Lisa" painted on velvet in Asia from a road side vendor does not mean that you purchased art work done by Leonardo da Vinci.[/quote]

Scotty is an artist, watch him sketch out the putters and t-shirts in his videos. He also can mill a putter by hand if he wants to. His Garage putters are very creative. Many would call them artwork. If you don't like them, fine, but it still doesn't diminish the fact that it takes artistic talent to create them. Scotty is clearly the creative source for his products. Watch his videos and you will see: [url="http://www.scottycameron.com"]www.scottycameron.com[/url]
[/quote]
First of all, people shouldn't have to "figure out" things, Scotty should be clear and not deceptive in his statements. You can spin things any way [i]you[/i] want, Scotty is clearly spinning things to give a certain impression. Most people who read the article have never priced a GSS putter, nor do they understand how putters are manufactured. Get real. Scotty wants to fool the masses and the zealots, he isn't interested in the small group of individuals on sites like this who have educated themselves - that is why this kind of discussion is taboo on TCC.

Second, I used to work for Disney. Does that mean because I can draw a pretty good Mickey Mouse on a napkin - I am now an artist? How about if I give my Mickey a red nose and blue shoes? Or is there more to it than that?

I'll give you he is creative in his use of stamps, and I love some of his stamp work. However, even some of that is questionable in terms of "art." How artistic does one need to be to order a scotty dog stamp?

While you raise some good points, turning this into an argument about semantics is really not intellectually honest. It is clear what Cameron was trying to portray in both the videos and the quotes in the article. Your defense is beginning to look more and more like mindless worship and less and less like thoughtful discourse.

The crux of the matter is not how Scotty actually manufactures his putters, but about how Scotty wants you to believe he does things and his less than forthright portrayal of what he does and what the Studio represents. That is why bringing into the discussion [i]how[/i] Bettinardi does things is largely irrelevant; he has not given misleading articles nor made misleading videos. And to be honest, even if he had that is still not a defense for Scotty, but the topic for another thread.

Just my opinion from watching.

[Redman]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' post='1866794' date='Aug 5 2009, 04:03 PM']Your defense is beginning to look more and more like mindless worship and less and less like thoughtful discourse.[/quote]

+1......it will never matter what is put in front of Biscuit he is going to go to his grave worshipping and defending Scotty....that is clear. He manipulates everything said into Scotty only meant good by that statment and he would never try to pull the wool over someone's eyes. Biscuit, you have to be crazy if you don't think the normal person reading that article doesn't believe Scotty is saying the steel in Tiger's putter cost $7,000. That is how he said it, how he wanted to say it, and how it reads.

[add1]

[quote name='foregasim' post='1866898' date='Aug 5 2009, 04:44 PM']Here is a picture I pulled off of the Cameron web site. It probable is one of those $7,000 GSS billets, the ones from Germany. lol[/quote]
Someone please help me I am now lost.I thought it was agreed that Tigers putter was probally cast and then skimmed milled.So why do you need a 5lb billet that would make 2 putters or more as no wastage if your just casting a head.Now I accept I'm not the sharpest tool in the box and you can make trees for multiple heads for casting,but the marketing skills of SC would not miss out on this holy grail of putters sales.An exact copy of Tigers head priceless.Or is it now a completely milled head.or can SC not remember, being so busy improving everthing.HELP!!!!.

[RobotDoctor]

[quote name='add1' post='1866938' date='Aug 5 2009, 03:05 PM'][quote name='foregasim' post='1866898' date='Aug 5 2009, 04:44 PM']Here is a picture I pulled off of the Cameron web site. It probable is one of those $7,000 GSS billets, the ones from Germany. lol[/quote]
Someone please help me I am now lost.I thought it was agreed that Tigers putter was probally cast and then skimmed milled.So why do you need a 5lb billet that would make 2 putters or more as no wastage if your just casting a head.Now I accept I'm not the sharpest tool in the box and you can make trees for multiple heads for casting,but the marketing skills of SC would not miss out on this holy grail of putters sales.An exact copy of Tigers head priceless.Or is it now a completely milled head.or can SC not remember, being so busy improving everthing.HELP!!!!.
[/quote]

They melt the stainless billet and pour the molten steel into a ceramic cast of the putter. The original wax mold was probably milled from a CNC machine with surfaces thicker than the final shape so that skim milling and grinding/sanding can be performed to get the putter to finished size and shape. The mold is coated with slurry (a ceramic type of powder) that is coated around the mold. Inlet and outlet tubing is attached to the mold prior to the slurry coat to allow the pouring and overflow of metal. Once the mold is coated, the slurry coated mold is placed in an oven to bake. The wax mold melts out of the slurry shell during this process leaving a hollow mold to pour the molten steel into. After baking and curing time has elapsed, the molten stainless steel is poured into the ceramic mold and set aside to cool. Once the cooling time has elapsed, the ceramic shell is removed (with some sort of vibratory tool) and the flutes (inlet and outlet piping) are cut off. The cast putter was then skim milled then shaped and viola, a milled putter for Tiger!

I believe that is essentially the processes. I saw this process at Dolphin Manufacturing in Phoenix back in the mid/late 90s. Dolphin is a subsidiary of Ping Golf Clubs. Of course they did not make Tiger's putter but the process would be the same.