Abe Mitchell and Ben Hogan

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='hoolio99' date='11 January 2010 - 10:25 PM' timestamp='1263266746' post='2176054']
Gents,

I stumbled across some footage of Abe that you guys may be interested in. I'm not sure how much it will add to the discussion but its cool to see. Its quite a cut off follow through he has.

[size="2"]

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=4601

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=24099

[/size]
[/quote]

What a great find, thanks for sharing.

Observe their rear shanks (especially, Mitchell's and how Abe positions his rear foot) - they're firm as a rock. This is what creating the firm rear side from the ground up means thanks to proper usage of both ankle and knee joints. The angle is very good to see it. Same phenomenon happens later in Hogan's swing. At least, I see it

Cheers

[hoolio99]

No worries, glad you liked it.

There is lots of footage of old golfers on there, Hogan, Snead, Cotton etc etc. Just search by name of player.

hoolio

[downtoscratch]

Wonderful stuff hoolio, wonderful. I loved watching Abe's cutoff finish and that jaunty gait of his! Thanks for sharing that find. dts

[ted_ray_jr]

[quote name='downtoscratch' date='12 January 2010 - 03:27 AM' timestamp='1263284821' post='2176466']
Wonderful stuff hoolio, wonderful. I loved watching Abe's cutoff finish and that jaunty gait of his! Thanks for sharing that find. dts
[/quote]


some good stuff with elkington and his instructor where they review guys like cotton, vardon and mitchell. elkington's ring the bell is smooth

[url="http://www.secretinthedirt.com/secretinthedirt1.html"]http://www.secretinthedirt.com/secretinthedirt1.html[/url]

[birdie chance]

[quote name='ted_ray_jr' date='12 January 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1263353771' post='2178207']
[quote name='downtoscratch' date='12 January 2010 - 03:27 AM' timestamp='1263284821' post='2176466']
Wonderful stuff hoolio, wonderful. I loved watching Abe's cutoff finish and that jaunty gait of his! Thanks for sharing that find. dts
[/quote]


some good stuff with elkington and his instructor where they review guys like cotton, vardon and mitchell. elkington's ring the bell is smooth

[url="http://www.secretinthedirt.com/secretinthedirt1.html"]http://www.secretint...inthedirt1.html[/url]
[/quote]

Can someone please explain the purpose of his motion "ring the bell" and how to do it I've tried to slow it down but his hand moves so quick and smooth.

[downtoscratch]

[quote name='birdie chance' date='12 January 2010 - 10:42 PM' timestamp='1263354138' post='2178226']
[quote name='ted_ray_jr' date='12 January 2010 - 10:36 PM' timestamp='1263353771' post='2178207']
[quote name='downtoscratch' date='12 January 2010 - 03:27 AM' timestamp='1263284821' post='2176466']
Wonderful stuff hoolio, wonderful. I loved watching Abe's cutoff finish and that jaunty gait of his! Thanks for sharing that find. dts
[/quote]


some good stuff with elkington and his instructor where they review guys like cotton, vardon and mitchell. elkington's ring the bell is smooth

[url="http://www.secretinthedirt.com/secretinthedirt1.html"]http://www.secretint...inthedirt1.html[/url]
[/quote]

Can someone please explain the purpose of his motion "ring the bell" and how to do it I've tried to slow it down but his hand moves so quick and smooth.
[/quote]

The bell ringing is a 'Cotton' reference I do believe. IMO, it is just a reference to the 'setting' of the club at transition. The
increased angle between the club and the left arm via the wrists.............. think Sergio Garcia as an extreme example. dts

[ted_ray_jr]

[quote name='downtoscratch' date='14 January 2010 - 07:12 AM' timestamp='1263471137' post='2180676']

The bell ringing is a 'Cotton' reference I do believe. IMO, it is just a reference to the 'setting' of the club at transition. The
increased angle between the club and the left arm via the wrists.............. think Sergio Garcia as an extreme example. dts



[/quote]


did mitchell have a comparable "magic move?"

[downtoscratch]

[quote name='ted_ray_jr' date='14 January 2010 - 07:20 AM' timestamp='1263471634' post='2180678']
[quote name='downtoscratch' date='14 January 2010 - 07:12 AM' timestamp='1263471137' post='2180676']
The bell ringing is a 'Cotton' reference I do believe. IMO, it is just a reference to the 'setting' of the club at transition. The
increased angle between the club and the left arm via the wrists.............. think Sergio Garcia as an extreme example. dts



[/quote]


did mitchell have a comparable "magic move?"
[/quote]

IMO, nobody had/has a 'magic move' in a motion that takes place so rapidly. Conscious thought becomes a liability. No, I'd
say what Mitchell, Hogan, Watson, Woods and all the rest had and have is something that goes before the motion..... in
preparation for that motion. Setup, physical structuring, call it what you will. They prepared themselves through their body
and their mind ......... and then it just happened, again and again I might add! Our man Martinez calls it 'intention'. DTS

[Alefty]

If anyone could digitize some of these public domain / out of print Mitchell books, they'd be doing everyone a great favor! Depending on what kind of camera, you could just take pictures of each page using some kind of simple way to keep the camera and book steady.

[hoolio99]

+1 ALefty

I see DTS is not available on Amazon or eBay or any other site from what I can see. It seems Golfwrx members have cornered the market !

hoolio

[ballhack]

Can anyone that has the ability digitize " Down to Scratch" and "Length on the links"? I have the capability but not the books to do it and they are extremly hard to find it seems.

[brockljo]

[quote name='PivotDriven' date='26 November 2009 - 02:16 PM' timestamp='1259198179' post='2085255']
"The forearms should not only be wound towards the hole in the address, but should remain so throughout the backswing"...

Is that what I see at 1:39 of this video in the waggles?

[url="http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=martinez19696#p/u/26/sKc1g4ivA0Q"]http://www.youtube.c.../26/sKc1g4ivA0Q[/url]
[/quote]


nothing to do with Abe, and a bit late in the piece I know (humble apologies), but what I clearly see in M's waggle section 1.36 to 1.39 (stop at 1.38) is more than just CCW rotation of the forearms, it is :

a) hands/wrists opening up extremely quickly
b) left knee extension out along the angle of the left foot (which if the hands travel straight inside would create a mini extension of the right side)

if this observation is correct then M's waggle is a perfect mini version of his full swing

probably all been said before, but what the heck

[peterb160180]

Copy of Down to Scratch available for any UK buyer interested.

[url="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250667886057&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT"]http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250667886057&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT[/url]

[michaelgb888]

Dts,

Mitchell does not advocate rotating/rolling the left hand/arm/clubface; in fact he wants you to rotate/roll the right hand/wrist to the left (ccw) at takeaway. Is this correct?

If yes, isn't that contrary to what Hogan says? Maybe Joe's right, the difference in the shafts needed Hogan to tweak his swing? If you don't rotate/roll in the BS, I think you will likely hit it left because the clubface is kept square and the right arm preset resistance ("door spring" in Abes's words). Plus, Abe said you must not transfer weight to the left in transition and early DS, which to my amateur mind will also encourage lefts because your cog is kept right, hence the ball is too much left, thus at impact the clubface is most likely facing left already. Maybe Abe needed those two factors (no rolling and no weight transfer) because the super flexible/torquey hickory shafts back then leaves the clubface still open at impact? In other words its hard to close the clubface in time at impact especially if your clubhead speed is fast as what Abe looks like in his swing video?

Best.

[downtoscratch]

Mitchell does not advocate rotating/rolling the left hand/arm/clubface; in fact he wants you to rotate/roll the right hand/wrist to the left (ccw) at takeaway. [b]Is this correct?.[/b].........

Page 51 LotL [b]When the swing starts resist [/b]the pivot,
that is, delay the forward[b] or turning movement of the left hip and the left forearm.[/b] When you are finally compelled
to make a turn of the body [b]you may then roll the left forearm as you swing the club up[/b].
Sounds like Martinez and Elkington of late........ Half Moon/Belly Roll

Plus, Abe said you must not transfer weight to the left in transition and early DS

Page 52 [b]To play golf well it is essential to keep the weight behind the ball.
[/b]Page 53 The backswing should be made [b]in such a way that the weight is
transferred from foot to foot along the line of flight.[/b]
Sounds like our old friend Sevam1 to me............ dts

[jak_bot]

[quote name='downtoscratch' date='21 July 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1279741716' post='2590771']


Page 52 [b]To play golf well it is essential to keep the weight behind the ball.
[/b]Page 53 The backswing should be made [b]in such a way that the weight is
transferred from foot to foot along the line of flight.[/b]
Sounds like our old friend Sevam1 to me............ dts
[/quote]

DTS,

What does Abe mitchell mean by, "... the weight is transferred from foot to foot along the line of flight" ? I understand the foot to foot part, but what is the line of flight?

[downtoscratch]

[quote name='jak_bot' date='21 July 2010 - 03:55 PM' timestamp='1279742102' post='2590786']
[quote name='downtoscratch' date='21 July 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1279741716' post='2590771']
Page 52 [b]To play golf well it is essential to keep the weight behind the ball.
[/b]Page 53 The backswing should be made [b]in such a way that the weight is
transferred from foot to foot along the line of flight.[/b]
Sounds like our old friend Sevam1 to me............ dts
[/quote]

DTS,

What does Abe mitchell mean by, "... the weight is transferred from foot to foot along the line of flight" ? I understand the foot to foot part, but what is the line of flight?
[/quote]

Line of flight of the shot being played............. parallel to it as opposed to a circular rotation of the hips and body. He's
advocating a lateral shifting with the pivot being resisted by the legs/knees etc.. No over rotation....... same thing our
man Martinez is about. dts

[jak_bot]

[quote name='downtoscratch' date='21 July 2010 - 04:09 PM' timestamp='1279742958' post='2590815']
[quote name='jak_bot' date='21 July 2010 - 03:55 PM' timestamp='1279742102' post='2590786']
[quote name='downtoscratch' date='21 July 2010 - 03:48 PM' timestamp='1279741716' post='2590771']
Page 52 [b]To play golf well it is essential to keep the weight behind the ball.
[/b]Page 53 The backswing should be made [b]in such a way that the weight is
transferred from foot to foot along the line of flight.[/b]
Sounds like our old friend Sevam1 to me............ dts
[/quote]

DTS,

What does Abe mitchell mean by, "... the weight is transferred from foot to foot along the line of flight" ? I understand the foot to foot part, but what is the line of flight?
[/quote]

Line of flight of the shot being played............. parallel to it as opposed to a circular rotation of the hips and body. He's
advocating a lateral shifting with the pivot being resisted by the legs/knees etc.. No over rotation....... same thing our
man Martinez is about. dts
[/quote]

Ok Thanks DTS.

[michaelgb888]

DTS,

Thanks for the reply. I now think everybody is saying the same thing, just seem different because different folks are looking at different angles. And I think what everybody is not saying, which is common to all (I mean DTS/Martinez camp vs. Magnum/Eight group) is the "semi" fixed right elbow during 1st half of BS (and Hogan said this also in p. 48 of 5L) as well as the keeping the upper right arm to the side of the chest. Look at the 1946 thread, you're saying the same things I believe.

Best.

[jak_bot]

From <u>Down To Scratch</u><br><br>Last two paragraphs on page 56:<br><br><i> "Feel the teeing ground with the ball of both feet, If your shoes are so thick that you cannot do this, they are in my opinion, too thick for golf.&nbsp;&nbsp;Substitute a thinner-soled pair.&nbsp;&nbsp;If your rooms will allow it, try swinging a club indoors in stockinged feet so as to feel the part played by the feet in both sections of the swing."<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; First of all, then, get a good grip with both feet; feel secure.&nbsp;&nbsp;Most of us have for years been familiar with the sight of Taylor and Braid stamping their feet firmly into wet ground or into the sand in a bunker.&nbsp;&nbsp;</i><b><i>But Vardon is, perhaps, the best example I can give of a player who makes </i></b><b><i>sure of good foot-work.&nbsp;&nbsp;his habit on the tee is always screw his right toe about until he has got that foot firmly embedded.&nbsp;&nbsp;Vardon has always </i></b><b><i>pivoted freely, and a firm foothold with the right was most imperative in his case."</i></b><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>Last paragraph on page 57:<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <i>"On the tee and in the address generally, the player should be conscious of his foot-pressure; he should think about it.&nbsp;&nbsp;This is never necessary if the tee or stance be slippery, for usually he is aware of it throughout the entire stroke.&nbsp;&nbsp;On consideration, I think I would even go so far as to say that in the full swing, at any rate, my footwork is the one thing I am most conscious of, or, if you like, most concerned with.Timing, that most delicate of operations, is governed, in my case, almost entirely by foot-work.&nbsp;&nbsp;By pressure on the right foot in the down-swing I can make the hands gain on the club-head, while by extra pressure on the left foot, I can hold them back.&nbsp;&nbsp;Practically every professional can correct a faulty back-swing by foot-work, because he uses his feet, whereas the amateur's foot-control is by contrast usually less sure."</i><br><br><br>Some interesting stuff that is not talked about much any more, except for the mega-thread.&nbsp;&nbsp;I know Vardon wrote a bunch of books, does he talk about "The Feet" in any of them?&nbsp;&nbsp;It sure would be interesting to get his take on the role they play.

<div><br></div><div>**Edit** I just realized the longest chapter in <u>Down To Scratch</u>&nbsp;is &nbsp;"The Feet", a total of 10 pages.</div>

[michaelgb888]

Jak_bot,

Look at the takeaway instructions of Mictchell in Down to Scratch on pages 33 to 41. That's the most important revelation IMO.

Best.

[michaelgb888]

At setup, grip is weak especially right hand which is also wound targetwards, make the right hand clcling to the left thumb by tightening the middle and ring fingers, then push-down with left hand and let the right wrist bend while the right hand is still wound targetwards and still clinging to the left thumb with the middle and ring fongers and with a feeling that the wrists are being turned ccw and you do this while keeping the right elbow tucked-in and sort of acting as a spring-like resistance, you should move the hands along a line parallel to targetline until the hands reach in front of right/rear leg/thigh, at that point the back of left hand should be facing the hands of a spectator directly in front of you and not his face, and the palm of right hand is more facing the ground and not the teebox or feet of spectator in front of you, up to this point the feeling is that the movement is just hands and arms, no shoulder and torso turn yet, then if you continue the push-down of left hand, the shoulder and torso will then be forced to turn while the hands/arms raise up to top of bs, at top the left wrist should feel flat or bowed (but is actually slightly cupped due to rotation/push-down of left hand/arm reaching the rotational limit at top of bs which forces the slight cupping) and hence feels loaded and strong, also at top the right elbow and wrists feels locked and the right elbow pointing down and feeling very tight/uncmfortable as well as the shoulder rotator, then turn/transtion for the ds while still pushing-down with the left hand and with the feeling that the right elbow is leading the hand going to the target, then just continue rotating and then flick the left hand/arm at start of impact zone.

Whew! IMO, the above is what Hogan and Mitchell is saying. Hope I'm right. Am I? Dts? Martinez? Dariusz? Stryker? Magnum? Eightiron?

Best.

[downtoscratch]

That's one heck of a question................. there was a question implied there wasn't there. Who could possibly respond to that lengthy
discourse (road map) you've laid out and answer in the affirmative??? Better you ask your golf ball it'll tell you the truth every trip.
Sorry, I for one can't respond with any thing more honest than that michaelgb888. Everyone's going to interpret Abe or Hogan as
they experience their own findings in connection with the authors of the information given. Good luck. DTS

[jak_bot]

Ahhh, yes, I recall posting that excerpt several months ago in trying to hi-light a connection between Hogan, Mitchell, and the "mega-thread". I have since "connected the dots" between Mitchell and Morrison.

[michaelgb888]

Jak_bot,

What excerpt? What "mega-thread"? Where did you post it? Would like to see it..

Dts,

Well, my ball flight is the best its been. But regardless of ballflight, is the above what Mitchell says in dts and lol? Do you notice something I'm missing or misunderstanding?

Actually, quite disappointed that there's no discussion here in detail of the technique/mechanics of Mitchell's ideas. Only one was the post on p. 2 of this thread re Abes' takeaway and Hogan's waggle.

Best.

[jak_bot]

[size="3"]michaelgb888,[/size]

[size="3"]The excerpt i[/size]n post number 170 is from Mitchell's DTS (the parts in [i]italcs[/i]). The "mega-thread" is an old thread from 2008 discussing Sevam1's youtube videos; however, it has been locked, but still can be found by using the search function. Have fun.

[michaelgb888]

Thanks Jak. Will take look.

[michaelgb888]

[quote name='michaelgb888' timestamp='1291515116' post='2823852']
Thanks Jak. Will take look.
[/quote]


Ok, I now see your point. So you're refering to the feet/pretorquing of Mitchell/Sevam1. That really automates the swing in respect of the lower body especuially at transition.

But what I'd like to discuss more is the takeaway and bs as taught by Mitchell in DTS. It really automates the swing as far as arms/hands is concerned. Hope Dariusz will jump in here re this.

[chris_golf]

[quote name='drmikeaz' timestamp='1301605102' post='3106802']
[quote name='ballhack' timestamp='1270837951' post='2370189']
Can anyone that has the ability digitize " Down to Scratch" and "Length on the links"? I have the capability but not the books to do it and they are extremly hard to find it seems.


[/quote]

You should be able to download DTS from the following link:
[url="http://www.filedropper.com/totaldts"]http://www.filedropper.com/totaldts[/url]
Good luck.
drmikeaz.
[/quote]

IMO a must read for Hogan fans - the "wind up of the arms"! brilliant...

Chris

[drmikeaz]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1301607925' post='3106959']
[quote name='drmikeaz' timestamp='1301605102' post='3106802']
[quote name='ballhack' timestamp='1270837951' post='2370189']
Can anyone that has the ability digitize " Down to Scratch" and "Length on the links"? I have the capability but not the books to do it and they are extremly hard to find it seems.


[/quote]

You should be able to download DTS from the following link:
[url="http://www.filedropper.com/totaldts"]http://www.filedropper.com/totaldts[/url]
Good luck.
drmikeaz.
[/quote]

IMO a must read for Hogan fans - the "wind up of the arms"! brilliant...

Chris
[/quote]

Apologies to all. I have deleted the reference with the above link because it is not working. However I do have the entire DTS in PDF document . It is 80.2 MB so I need a reliable way to make it available to those interested. Suggestions ?

Trying to help !!
drmikeaz