Abe Mitchell and Ben Hogan

[golfbulldog]

Chapter 7 from "Length on the Links"

 

 

http://www.mediafire.com/?zjojlb4yitz

http://www.mediafire.com/?zgm44mzeyzt

http://www.mediafire.com/?ngocdjidy0t

http://www.mediafire.com/?niizamonuk2

 

Enjoy!

 

This really is a fascinating chapter - many similarities to Hogan's teaching IMO.

[Arafel]

That's good stuff. It's almost like reading a more detailed version of five lessons. I know that DTS has really been praising Abe. Now I see why.

Thanks for posting and thanks for the PDF's bulldog.

[Dariusz J.]

I is a truly[b] fantastic[/b] lecture. I thought until now that the first brilliant golf mind who took advantage of biomechanics and, therefore, was much ahead his time was Ben Hogan.
As it can be seen - he wasn't the first. I do not know how much Hogan was influenced by Abe's discovieries, but I also see many links to '5 Lessons'. In my private ranking of the most brilliant and influencing golfing minds, Abe Mitchell joins now the same league as Hogan and Cotton.

Much to my surprise and pure joy, there are many links to my studies on biokinetics. What Abe says about the rear elbow/forearm and grip is practically the same as Bio-K grip + preset of the rear elbow joint. I am speechless.

Thanks a lot, GB, for these PDF's. And many, many thanks Jerry (DTS) for being a fan of Abe's theories and making us all think about them.

Cheers

[dream_stryker]

Im sold. Getting this book TODAY. The grip was told to me by a pro who swore I would NEVER find it in a book. Guess he should have said a book produced in the last 70 years or so. Makes sense to comb these older books. I wasn't around then but my guess is that there was no motivation to hide or obscure useful info as there was no Golf Instructor guild to protect.

[yahtzeeuk]

looks like abe mitchell books are getting even rarer now then eh ?? ..... ' dont turn your muscles away from the line of flight ' - abe i like that one

[dream_stryker]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' post='2078497' date='Nov 22 2009, 10:25 AM'][b]I is a truly fantastic lecture. I thought until now that the first brilliant golf mind who took advantage of biomechanics and, therefore, was much ahead his time was Ben Hogan.[/b]
As it can be seen - he wasn't the first. I do not know how much Hogan was influenced by Abe's discovieries, but I also see many links to '5 Lessons'. In my private ranking of the most brilliant and influencing golfing minds, Abe Mitchell joins now the same league as Hogan and Cotton.

Much to my surprise and pure joy, there are many links to my studies on biokinetics. What Abe says about the rear elbow/forearm and grip is practically the same as Bio-K grip + preset of the rear elbow joint. I am speechless.

Thanks a lot, GB, for these PDF's. And many, many thanks Jerry (DTS) for being a fan of Abe's theories and making us all think about them.

Cheers[/quote]

DJ,

Not the case at all. An older retired pro I communicate with told me the stuff in Hogan's book had been around in teaching circles. Hogan was the first BIG name to put that kind of information in a book that any one could buy. Remember Golf in America had been a game of aristocracy until Arnie came along and common folks started playing it (Not sure about the UK). He still says Hogan didn't really give much away...just tossed out a few scraps and left a few clues for more inquisitive people to investigate.

Pro golfers of all eras play in the 60's... you have to know the how of shoulder, arm, core, and wrists move to play in the 60's...even if you don't have a clue of the why. I told him I was going to get it out of the dirt like Hogan (just to bait him into telling me where Hogan got some of his information) and he laughed but unfortunately didn't know or wouldn't tell me....except to say that Hogan got a lot of information on his own that would have been incomplete if not for the missing pieces he received from some other people.

BTW....he told me the "Secret in the Dirt" double entendre really referred to giving the grass a 1/4 inch haircut about 6-8 inches long. Once you own that.....you can play golf the rest of your life....the only thing left to know is what distance to hit it. Unfortunately, I don't own divots like that....It happens accidentally and the result is usually a laser.

I can't verify this one way or the other...nor would I want to because it was a fun story to listen to. Cheers mate

[golfbulldog]

From "Down to Scratch" - hope this works - more to enjoy!

 

 

[golfbulldog]

More from "Down to Scratch"

 

[Dariusz J.]

DJ,

 

Not the case at all. An older retired pro I communicate with told me the stuff in Hogan's book had been around in teaching circles. Hogan was the first BIG name to put that kind of information in a book that any one could buy. Remember Golf in America had been a game of aristocracy until Arnie came along and common folks started playing it (Not sure about the UK). He still says Hogan didn't really give much away...just tossed out a few scraps and left a few clues for more inquisitive people to investigate.

 

Pro golfers of all eras play in the 60's... you have to know the how of shoulder, arm, core, and wrists move to play in the 60's...even if you don't have a clue of the why. I told him I was going to get it out of the dirt like Hogan (just to bait him into telling me where Hogan got some of his information) and he laughed but unfortunately didn't know or wouldn't tell me....except to say that Hogan got a lot of information on his own that would have been incomplete if not for the missing pieces he received from some other people.

 

BTW....he told me the "Secret in the Dirt" double entendre really referred to giving the grass a 1/4 inch haircut about 6-8 inches long. Once you own that.....you can play golf the rest of your life....the only thing left to know is what distance to hit it. :tongue: Unfortunately, I don't own divots like that....It happens accidentally and the result is usually a laser.

 

I can't verify this one way or the other...nor would I want to because it was a fun story to listen to. Cheers mate

 

Good reading and infoo, DS. I always enjoy your posts, BTW. Still, even if Hogan got a lot of incomplete info from his own researches and had to complete it by others' ones (Abe comes to mind now as the first), he still was the one to possess a brilliant mind to match those lego pieces together.

Ultimately, this is why the progress is being made in all spheres - and it is great that intriguing and researching minds here can bring almost unknown names to share Hogan's glory to a degree.

 

Cheers

 

 

From "Down to Scratch" - hope this works - more to enjoy!

 

 

 

Excellent ! Thanks.

 

Cheers

[golfbulldog]

"Length on the Links" - follows on from the original PDF in the first post.

 

[golfbulldog]

Last one for this week -

 

 

Interesting point about the hip slide on downswing occuring before the left heel goes down - similar to first swing on this one...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNgMNK3CtWU

[dream_stryker]

DJ,

 

Not the case at all. An older retired pro I communicate with told me the stuff in Hogan's book had been around in teaching circles. Hogan was the first BIG name to put that kind of information in a book that any one could buy. Remember Golf in America had been a game of aristocracy until Arnie came along and common folks started playing it (Not sure about the UK). He still says Hogan didn't really give much away...just tossed out a few scraps and left a few clues for more inquisitive people to investigate.

 

Pro golfers of all eras play in the 60's... you have to know the how of shoulder, arm, core, and wrists move to play in the 60's...even if you don't have a clue of the why. I told him I was going to get it out of the dirt like Hogan (just to bait him into telling me where Hogan got some of his information) and he laughed but unfortunately didn't know or wouldn't tell me....except to say that Hogan got a lot of information on his own that would have been incomplete if not for the missing pieces he received from some other people.

 

BTW....he told me the "Secret in the Dirt" double entendre really referred to giving the grass a 1/4 inch haircut about 6-8 inches long. Once you own that.....you can play golf the rest of your life....the only thing left to know is what distance to hit it. :tongue: Unfortunately, I don't own divots like that....It happens accidentally and the result is usually a laser.

 

I can't verify this one way or the other...nor would I want to because it was a fun story to listen to. Cheers mate

 

Good reading and infoo, DS. I always enjoy your posts, BTW. Still, even if Hogan got a lot of incomplete info from his own researches and had to complete it by others' ones (Abe comes to mind now as the first), he still was the one to possess a brilliant mind to match those lego pieces together.

Ultimately, this is why the progress is being made in all spheres - and it is great that intriguing and researching minds here can bring almost unknown names to share Hogan's glory to a degree.

 

Cheers

 

 

From "Down to Scratch" - hope this works - more to enjoy!

 

 

 

Excellent ! Thanks.

 

Cheers

 

Thanks for the compliment my friend. High praise coming from you.

 

You hit on the answer to the million dollar question. Indeed. It is the talent of the golfer to understand which pieces match to create the whole swing. This old pro I talk to (we talk about life and philosophy much, much, much more than golf) commended that I've got a lot of pieces but rhetorically asked if I could put them together. He likened the process to baking a pie. You see the pie created by a master baker and wish to create a similar tasting pie. Even IF you get the ingredients, you still have to know how much of each ingredient to use in the pie. The right ingredients but the wrong mix equals a mediocre or terrible pie. That is why I this forum is great....it offers ingredients and different approaches to what mix of the ingredients makes a good pie depending on what one's personal tastes are. I think Abe's book offers some insight into Mr Hogan's "grocery list" so Im glad its coming to light. :drinks:

[sevam1]

It is refreshing to see things shift towards the material, people and prevailing thoughts that Hogan himself would have had access to as he put the pieces together for himself.

I was the fortunate recipient of an original copy of Down To Scratch, which was kindly sent to me by this sites first champion of Abe's cause, DTS himself. Thanks again Jerry.

In terms of its content it is a wonderful, uniquely insightful and in terms of instruction a remarkably valuable book.... Abe Mitchell's ideas clearly being both original and ahead of their time.

DTS was somewhat distressed and taken aback when I told him that I had given the book away. He initially thought that I must have thought very little of it. He was later relieved to hear that I had in fact thought so highly of Abe Mitchell's ideas that I re-gifted the book to Steve Elkington who has advised that he enjoyed it thoroughly.

Sevam1

[downtoscratch]

Mike, Thank you for your endorsement of Abe's work........ I value that highly knowing your
reverence for the game's greats of bygone days. DTS


The single most impacting photo of all for me personally. I was struck by this image the moment I first saw it. It wasn't very long after that Mr. Hogan came to mind! Yes, it can
be a difficult read owing to the style of discourse that is not common to our times but the
images speak clearly to my eyes. Abe Mitchell won the battle with the highly torque inherent
hickory shaft . He did it through 'resistance'. Though the materials have changed through the
years the battle nonetheless wages on. Shaft flex is more than just an expression! Check the link below for Grantland Rice's account of Mitchell's driving prowess....... 300 + yards with
the equipment of that era, remarkable!

[url="http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/pdf/GOLF%20mandarins.pdf"]http://www.oldmagazinearticles.com/pdf/GOLF%20mandarins.pdf[/url]

[Alefty]

I'd love to see it all in a pdf!

[downtoscratch]

The 'Field Mouse' remark first spoken here by Abe Mitchell in 1933 and later paraphrased by
Ben Hogan when he described his nemesis the dreaded duck hook...............

[Alefty]

Can't wait for the rest. Too bad these are out of print.

[Shal]

Yep, I just bought both of them from used books stores, really nice books!!!

[hoges11]

Me too, isnt Amazon wonderful !

[IH82BOGEY]

[url="http://www.hickorygolfers.com/swings/abemitchell/amswing.htm"]http://www.hickorygolfers.com/swings/abemitchell/amswing.htm[/url]

The link says this is abe mitchell's swing. Looks like his elbow flies some to me? Maybe he feels something other than what he is doing? Dont know. What are the names exactly of the books you all referencing.

[razorbird]

Great photos all over that site!

[hoolio99]

"Length on the Links" - follows on from the original PDF in the first post.

 

 

Interesting stuff. Thanks for posting. These old boys certainly knew their onions!

 

I noticed while reading through the LOL pages you posted that pages 42-43 are from DTS, so there are two pages missing. My apologies if I am overlooking something.

 

hoolio

[golfbulldog]

Thanks for spotting that Hoolio - I muddled up a bit .... the real LOL 42-43 is great image!

 

 

Will try and correct it in the link

[golfbulldog]

Sorted out the correct page 42-43 in LOL.

 

ANyone have any coments about the "forearms holding towards the hole" in the backswing...or as he staes in DTS pg 18 - "The forearms should not only be wound towards the hole in the address, but should remain so throughout the backswing"...

 

He sets all of this up with the grip - much like Darius has described - get the static things right and the motion has fewer areas where it can go wrong!

 

Before anyone thinks that Abe was the perfect golfer to follow he did have a pretty funky grip...he called it "double palm"with the left thumb well aft of the shaft - almost like a left handed hammer grip.

 

Will scan the pics - he does a great impression of Vardon's grip which Hogan in "Power Golf" is careful to describe as subtley different to his own (in the way the right little finger wraps round the left index finger rather than sits uniformly on top of it...seems to fit with the " 2 knuckle right hand grip")

 

Here it is

 

[golfbulldog]

Wish I had time to scan the whole lot - there are so many beautiful thoughts...

"stand to the swing and not to the ball" (pg 7 LOL)

"my onw practice is to plant the right foot relative to the ball and the left relative to the swing" (pg 8 LOL) - he had open stance for almost every shot - but varied the degree.

"in every golf shot your thoughts must be ahead of the ball- at the end of the ball's flight" (pg 8 LOL)


...will scan the sstance chapter tonight...too good not to!

[xiaoxiong]

these are some GREAT stuff, thanks for sharing, guys, esp golfbulldog

[golfbulldog]

"Length on the Links" - chpters 1 and 2

 

[Zoulfly]

Mmm, thanks a lot for scanning those pages

[dream_stryker]

Is there any doubt now that Hogan left a cartload of information out of 5 lessons? (That was a rhetorical question BTW)

Abe is the man!!!!....filled in some questions about the right arm. I thought the right bicep was a speed killer...what do I know? Im a chop!


EDIT: I found a copy and took the plunge! My copy should arrive in a few weeks!

[Ezgolfer]

Great books .....
Keep em coming ..
Thanks.

These are hard to find . I am willing to pay for xeroxed copy....