Abe Mitchell and Ben Hogan

[martinez]

[quote name='PivotDriven' post='2149991' date='Dec 30 2009, 01:56 PM']Does the red circle pressure the top of the shaft or more to the right side?[/quote]

The pressure is felt forward but it's just as on top as it is on the right side.....at least the way I do it / prescribe it. Gives you that trigger look to the index finger.....the pressure is on the tip of the left index finger which gives you the trigger look in that also.

[yahtzeeuk]

Ben Hogan in 5 lessons also said he liked to feel the knuckle on back of of right hand above forefinger , pressing left to target, and [b]almost on top of the shaft..[/b]

with the illustrations also.. just thought i would add that.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

i find the whole abe ben link tenuous, ...sorry , great book, even better golfer, but not hogan.

abe couldn't hit a steel shaft ben played xxxstiff, ...different dynamics at the 'business end of the swing'.

imo you wont find a flexible golfer who can actually play without resistance, hogan verges on ligament laxity, so he resisted as can be seen in his set up, hinted at it with 'live tension', but his release was free flowing/huge arc, ...abes from my interpretation seemed more like a stall tiny arc,...maybe even hickory shaft bent so clubhead is forward abes imperatives were a no roll flat left wrist hit off an extremely firmly held left side, open stance, dead legs, its all left, left, left.

i can see some connections between hogan, abe, and martin some of them only between 2 of the 3 but imo the really strong connection between them all is that they are all great players, if they all sprayed it around the course the differences would be highlighted imo.

if hogan did something different, it wouldnt be hogan, so why is it when someone else does something different to hogan, it is hogan?

[martinez]

Joe......there's a lot of stuff with all the great players that we should be looking at. No two of the greats have ever been the 'same'.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

for sure, whats 'great' is great, ...but we should look for the differences as well as the similarities between the greats, learn from both ends.

i always found it odd that luke donald was abused on this site, he was top 10 with no distance shaping 2 irons in to tight flags but was looked on here as a having the epitome of a bad swing, ... a proven 'great' way to 'skin a cat' under the gun, ignored. els the same.

i thought the hogan litmus test was more stringent here, mention chad and trevor and your laughed at, but now abe is hogan, i just get the funny feeling people are seeing the abe stills and animating them in there head into mexico hogan.

anyway the hogan gig is the funky takeaway and the transition, life mag and magic elbow, as a precise formula for aiming a fade. minus those 2 and you have what hogan himself described as 'not a very good golfer', talk of packing it in etc. once he added those 2 he predicted the greatness that followed.

[martinez]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' post='2152278' date='Dec 31 2009, 06:18 PM']i thought the hogan litmus test was more stringent here, mention chad and trevor and your laughed at, but now abe is hogan, i just get the funny feeling people are seeing the abe stills and animating them in there head into mexico hogan.

anyway the hogan gig is the funky takeaway and the transition, life mag and magic elbow, as a precise formula for aiming a fade. minus those 2 and you have what hogan himself described as 'not a very good golfer', talk of packing it in etc. once he added those 2 he predicted the greatness that followed.[/quote]
Abes' description of things is far more important than any 'stills' Joe. You're certainly entitled to disagree, but if you have read his books, then you may well be able to contribute more to the thread in the negative.

Also I think the Hogan gig is a little more complete than that.....if it weren't you wouldn't have every man and his dog chasing after it for 60 years. The magic elbow is a result of a lot of other factors including his intent. Abe does a very good job of describing an intent that will get a 'seeker' some of the way there, not all the way, but it will certainly help. That is my motivation here. I can't speak for the other guardians of Hogans' legacy.

[downtoscratch]

Joe,
I make the assumption that there is a tangible link between Abe and Hogan. I do so without
hesitation or reservation. I will stand with that assumption. As Martin says the description of things
bears more evidence than any stills. I would like to take this opportunity to be shown the error of
my thinking if you wouldn't mind elaborating on your views as to why this is such an unlikely
pairing. Having read Abe's book (s) yourself what is most profoundly dissimilar in your mind?

Joe said....
"abe couldn't hit a steel shaft ben played xxxstiff, ...different dynamics at the 'business end of the swing". [i][b]Abe preferred his hickory shafts, true. Couldn't hit steel....... where is it written?[/b][/i]
To my way of thinking the dynamics are the same, simply more amplified with the hickory shaft.
Containment of the shaft's dynamics being more of a challenge with hickory but, in my mind, no
less vital with steel.

Joe said.....
"imo you wont find a flexible golfer who can actually play without resistance, hogan verges on ligament laxity, so he resisted as can be seen in his set up, hinted at it with 'live tension', but his release was free flowing/huge arc, ...abes from my interpretation seemed more like a stall tiny arc,...maybe even hickory shaft bent so clubhead is forward abes imperatives were a no roll flat left wrist hit off an extremely firmly held left side, open stance, dead legs, its all left, left, left".

The sum of all you've written here indicates that you have seen the emphasis Abe placed on resistance and credited Hogan with having a like amount of resistance in his setup a point on
which we might all likely agree. Add too your mention of a flat left wrist which I'm assuming
you mention as being in discord with Hogan's 'cup'. Then the matter [i]an extremely firmly held
left side, open stance, dead legs, its all left, left, left.[/i] On these points Joe I would ask you to
consider my viewpoint for comparison.

Abe says 'back of the (left) hand is practically a continuation of the flat of the forearm' as opposed to bent back so that it faces the player. I too found this to appear as a departure from Hogan initially but upon further inspection it can be seen and heard to mean no collapsing of the wrist back over the forearm. The pictures of Abe at the top of his swing clearly show a cupping to rival Hogan's own.
Open stance dead legs and left, left, left....... Hogan stood open where it mattered, IMO. Look past the feet and see how the other elements stack up in his address. Open hips and kicked in right knee
showing the 'resistance' to turning off the ball right from the get go. Abe speaks clearly of resisting
with the knees and of the legs being set in sympathy with the arms (resistance) again , anything
but dead legs if you ask me. Abe concludes his brief chapter on the hip swing by saying.... "when the legs go out of the stroke the player is finished"... That time, I suppose awaits us all".

As for left, left, left.......... you'll have to help me here, Joe, as this would be to me a foundational
element of Martin's swing ideas and if I interpret Abe correctly his ideas about left, left, left are
in evidence as key to his resistance campaign and can be found in the Hogan swing as well. While
Abe labors to point out that the swing is a 'left sided' one even to the point of declaring it a cardinal
rule he does just as soundly tell us about the 'vitals' of the swing and their residence is clearly in the
right side. Left side resists while the right provides the might is my way of reading this.

In conclusion, for now anyway, the very [b]'guts'[/b] of Abe's swing are what the whole gig is about here. That's my take on the things you've touched upon in comparing Abe to Hogan and Martin as well. Your further thoughts would be greatly appreciated, Joe. DTS

[JOEGOLFWRX]

you know i think your both [b]very[/b] cool guys, and i do see an abe/ben link, ...but there is a link in all great swings when you look for it, as there are differences when looked for.

im seeking a little uniformity in the 'link' litmus, ... chad, trevor, dickonson, venturi, trolio, knudson, bertrand, sevam, yogi, austin, i could go on for ever, all similar all different, i cant remember half of them as many are not worth remembering ..lol...(still fascinating stuff though). this place is like the spanish inquisition, and abe is getting a wee hogan pass imo, ...now it could very well be cause it was hogans bible, but even if it was, hogan still tweaked it, and that is the defining thing imo, if he didnt tweak it and the tweak wasn't illusionary in nature we wouldn't be discussing him. it would of been figured out by '48.

illusions are just puzzles, the latest 'solution' to the illusion is always a potential trap that keeps you from the end, you have to keep wiping the slate clean, try it from another angle, i know its cliche, but like Einstein, 1 or 2 great ideas, and the rest of his life looking for the next big one, trapped in the greatness of his last perspective....martin is doubly trapped by finding 'his swing' ...wasn't that really HIS puzzle anyway ? M is in dublin, texas, but hes not in hogans house, ...but so what, maybe he'll win majors with that swing, maybe that swing is better than hogans, ,one thing i will say is i don't see any illusions in martins swing, maybe his words ...hehehe.

i dont know what would be gained by nit picking all the little differences between abe and ben, my words for the swing are as esoteric as martins and not worth the thesaurus ...hehehe, suffice to highlight they exist imo and what they generally were, at least from my interpretation of his words, another one was knee tension one guy wanted max the other none. i cant remember were i read abe couldn't make the transition to steel, as we know from hogan it may be false or may have been written before he figured it out. i have read he was a bomber off the tee with a dodgy iron game. i did like his bump and run though, one for the locker.

i know i missed the specific questions, but that's my nature, sorry, ...someone once told me you can divide people up into how they [b]best[/b] process new information,

big picture first (details later) [b]Vs[/b] details first (build up the big picture from the ground up)

another way was

differences [b]Vs[/b] similarities

interesting theory, you'll be one or the other from both groups, so im a big picture/difference guy, ...a contrarian with perspective ...rofl, ...not from the alpha male group of forum debaters ...lol, ill try if you like, just cant see the point

yeah, so the same but different, different but the same, ...with hogan hitting the perfect fade from a draw swing hes going to be pretty close to the center of the ven diagram of all swing perspectives imo, ...there's a little bit of hogan in every 'great' player, maybe abes a little closer to the center than some.

if i must go into difference 'details', let me ask just one question first, ...if you'll wear my big picture/difference hat briefly,..

Name one other GREAT that had the funky takeaway and the magic elbow ?

[downtoscratch]

"Name one other GREAT that had the funky takeaway and the magic elbow" ?

Joe please take a moment to properly define or describe the funky takeaway and the magic elbow.
That might help in answering your question. DTS

[moehogan]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' post='2153254' date='Dec 31 2009, 05:51 PM'][i]this place is like the spanish inquisition, and abe is getting a wee hogan pass imo
[/i][/quote]
Joe,

Why do you think the usual hogan flamethrowers have not surfaced here?

MH

[Arafel]

[quote name='moehogan' post='2154199' date='Jan 1 2010, 10:50 AM'][quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' post='2153254' date='Dec 31 2009, 05:51 PM'][i]this place is like the spanish inquisition, and abe is getting a wee hogan pass imo
[/i][/quote]
Joe,

Why do you think the usual hogan flamethrowers have not surfaced here?

MH
[/quote]

Probably because nobody is trying to sell a secret. Everyone is just discussing something that has maybe given them more insight into the golf swing.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='moehogan' post='2154199' date='Jan 1 2010, 10:50 AM'][quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' post='2153254' date='Dec 31 2009, 05:51 PM'][i]this place is like the spanish inquisition, and abe is getting a wee hogan pass imo
[/i][/quote]
Joe,

Why do you think the usual hogan flamethrowers have not surfaced here?

MH
[/quote]

+1 jason, abe is gone, no one alive is profiting, ...it never was flamethrowing imo, it always was a moral/ethical stance, ...the knights of the hogan table,...hehehe ...but you could be wright moeh, maybe i done muxed up me metaphors, ...i could be joan of arc, about to be burnt at the stake ...lol, someone strike the match and put me out of my misery, there is no ego here, id love to be wrong, it would mean someone is about to burn me wright.

funky takeaway = life mag 55 'this is my secret'
magic elbow = dariusz's 'hogan disorder' thread

first is a conscious independent manipulation of the left hand/wrist initiating the opening of the clubface, what i call the 'harley' in my dumb head, ...'first crossroad' of the swing, creates the hogan fade, otherwise a draw. but what is the 'intent' of the consciousness?, was it really the hand? or was his focus elsewhere and the reaction was the 'harley'? ...'it'll ruin a bad player'

second is around the 'second crossroad' of the swing, concious self monitoring point, (its near where martin goes from bow to crossbow, his limbo reference etc.) debate on reaction/manipulation. is the reaction preset? or an effect of a concious correction, a reaction to correction?

etc. etc. 2 big points of debate that come and go, ...my terms are vague deliberately, 'funky' allows for a wider scope of interpretation than a word that limits what is really going on like 'pronation' which life '55 was coined by revisionists. hogan said he never saw it since, that's a big word 'never'. but what pro is going to spend a minute getting the perfect setup only to start the swing by breaking it up at the hands,...lol, what a genius, ...whats that saying ...'out of desperation comes inspiration'. ...the reuslt is D's big picture, martinesque aesthetics, although ive seen tiger come closer on a few swings, normally when hes misshit it ...lol, ...strange game.

[chris_golf]

[attachment=515751:ap_20080...8850_jpg.jpg]

Who is the person on the left?

[TxsGolfer]

Henry Picard.

[chris_golf]

Thank you txsGolfer...




[color="#ff0000"]Picard was known for his generosity to other players, and [/color][url="http://golf.about.com/od/golfersmen/p/sam_snead.htm"][color="#ff0000"]Sam Snead[/color][/url][color="#ff0000"] credited Picard with convincing him to turn pro. Picard also offered to bankroll [/color][url="http://golf.about.com/od/golfersmen/p/ben_hogan.htm"][color="#ff0000"]Ben Hogan[/color][/url][color="#ff0000"] when Hogan was struggling, then got Hogan into the field at the first tournament Hogan would win. He also helped Hogan eliminate his hook, and Hogan dedicated his book "[/color][url="http://erclk.about.com/?zi=21/rBH"][color="#ff0000"]Ben Hogan's Power Golf[/color][/url][color="#ff0000"]," to Picard.[/color] Just found above foto where Hogan changed his grip (or Picard)
Abe Mitchell is helping me in changing my grip as well - but it is more
how I set the muscles in the fingers, hands and arms. It is [b]opposed[/b] to
change your grip aka 2 or 3 knuckles or weak or strong etc...

Maybe I am a kinesthetic person and Abe Mitchell and Martinez teaching are fitting
exacly in this direction! Combining visual things with feelings.
I understand Abe as well only that he gives me what I have to feel and not match
a specific position!

Most teaching is visual learning and explanation... or match positions in your swing.

Chris

Iron and driver swing:

[attachment=515789:IronAndDriver.jpg]

[downtoscratch]

Joe,
Thanks for the definitions and I heartily agree that there's no point in nit-picking the
differences to be found between Hogan and Abe. Besides that's too easy a task.... better
we are served to look to the core likenesses, IMO. Trust me, I'm not here to sell anyone
on these notions of mine though Abe has his ways of doing a good job of that all on his
own. Me, I'm just a messenger here. My message is and has been simply that the great
joy in searching out the Hogan mystique may have led me down a path that he himself
once followed. Interesting to me Joe is your use of the word [b]pronation[/b]... though I don't get the revisionists remark but that's okay. It, pronation, and supination were included
in one of Abe's books as was the infamous 'field mouse'...... two word choices common
to both men. Just saying. Other little coincidences exist that make me look past the
clear contrasts in these two players. Mainly though the similarities in their foundational
approaches to taking up their positioning to the shot stands out profoundly to my eyes.
What makes this more exceptional is the fact that very few other players can be found
that bear a likeness to these two. Beyond the photographic scrutiny there lies a purpose
far greater than any mere mimicry. Coupled with what the eye sees and the words Abe
uses to describe his intentions we have the footage of Hogan that to me bears testimony
to his similar intention where words are perhaps sorely lacking. Forgive me Joe, if it seems
I'm trying too hard to make a case where you might rightly say one does not exist but I only brought forth the man's works as the sole deciding factor in the case of Mitchell leading
Hogan. Square pegs and round holes..... I don't think so and it's just as you've said about the lineage, all similar, all different. No cloning implied. Martin's quest has led him to Dublin
and he was well along that road before he knew who Abe Mitchell was but I believe he would
tell us that running into Abe only sped him on his way. He may not be in Hogan's house but
he's soundly rapping on the front door, IMO.

Note.... Abe's use of the words pronate and supinate was only to declare that he had no use for such scientific jargon!! His use of the 'field mouse' reference was the same as Hogan's
two decades later........... both describing a duck hook!!

In reply to your two points of continuing debate I see this as further evidence to the lack
of real knowledge of the applied dynamics employed by Ben Hogan. I think that the 'funky'
is more rightly 'function' and I contend that whether any 'real' link between Hogan and Mitchell ever existed they no doubt came to the same place in their individual understanding
of what the task at hand called for. Martin likewise has found his way by following a clear
course to 'function' with little regard for the 'chain of cliches' that more often interrupt right
thinking. The startup and the transition are unique alright and they both have full intention
written all over them. Both too, are more reactionary than conscious driven, IMO. This I'm
learning only too well from Martin as he continues to put a finer point on all these things.
Great fun all this........... Happy 2010, Joe. Enjoyed your discussions on Abe and more. DTS

[martinez]

[quote name='chris_golf' post='2154807' date='Jan 2 2010, 08:03 AM']Thank you txsGolfer...




[color="#ff0000"]Picard was known for his generosity to other players, and [/color][url="http://golf.about.com/od/golfersmen/p/sam_snead.htm"][color="#ff0000"]Sam Snead[/color][/url][color="#ff0000"] credited Picard with convincing him to turn pro. Picard also offered to bankroll [/color][url="http://golf.about.com/od/golfersmen/p/ben_hogan.htm"][color="#ff0000"]Ben Hogan[/color][/url][color="#ff0000"] when Hogan was struggling, then got Hogan into the field at the first tournament Hogan would win. He also helped Hogan eliminate his hook, and Hogan dedicated his book "[/color][url="http://erclk.about.com/?zi=21/rBH"][color="#ff0000"]Ben Hogan's Power Golf[/color][/url][color="#ff0000"]," to Picard.[/color] Just found above foto where Hogan changed his grip (or Picard)
Abe Mitchell is helping me in changing my grip as well - but it is more
how I set the muscles in the fingers, hands and arms. It is [b]opposed[/b] to
change your grip aka 2 or 3 knuckles or weak or strong etc...

Maybe I am a kinesthetic person and Abe Mitchell and Martinez teaching are fitting
exacly in this direction! Combining visual things with feelings.
I understand Abe as well only that he gives me what I have to feel and not match
a specific position!

Most teaching is visual learning and explanation... or match positions in your swing.

Chris

Iron and driver swing:

[attachment=515789:IronAndDriver.jpg][/quote]
Good post Chris and an even better picture. I love how everything is the same in those two swings.....the only difference being a longer duration of the backswing expansion of the right axis. Leads to a deeper pivot and deeper arms. Fantastic picture.

@DTS, there will always be a difference of opinion on this subject, I think you've laid out your opinion about as well as you could do.

@Joe, your post shows that you have been extremely observant of all that has gone on here, excellent post also. There is a certain 'Chinese Whispers' aspect to the dissection of Hogans' action. Also a chicken and egg analogy is not out of place. Certainly makes for an interesting game.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

glad you both realize im not out with any flamethrowers, its easy to be misconstrued on forums and i have no interest in arguing about a game we share.

just to clarify a couple of points, ...everyone including me knows you both come from the right place, ...when i said 'tenuous link' i meant as in thin rather than none, ...i believe hogan read abe as it was an important book of the time, and hogan wrote about golf technique for the papers, imo, from what we know about hogans nature, he probably would of been well read of many of golfs bestsellers, if only for some meticulous research on the journalistic method, ...he was also searching for his swing for years and surely was influenced by writings.

...so the questions to me re abes influence, is how much, and when ? was it when he was a hookmonster, much earlier, later ? and the answers ultimately come down to abes words and there interpretation vs swing analysis. when i interpreted abes words i visualized different dynamics, ill have a search around the net for some moving pics see if it changes my mind. ...abes setup wasnt that uncommon a bit before his time imo, but he was still playing hickory, when most had adjusted to a steel setup, so was a bit of a curiosity im sure.

i see abe as another shard in the hogan holagram, not the whole thing.

happy new year guys.

[downtoscratch]

Joe,
Clearly we are all seekers here and given to our own personal perspectives borne out of our
own unique experiences. I love what you said about Martin being 'trapped' by his findings. It is up
to him whether he will let what he 'knows' stifle what he's yet to 'learn'. I was so committed to the
ideas brought to me through my brother's association with Jimmy Ballard and Sam Byrd that I
never thought I would be separated from them. I have been and it's good. I've not totally abandoned these early lessons just allowed for more than one point of view. My brother often
says "those who teach must never cease to learn" and to his credit he has lived out those words.

In response to your rhetorical question.... "abes influence, is how much, and when"?? I will
doggedly hold to the notion that it's [b]very much[/b] and leave the when to ponder over. I sure would like to know what books were in Hogan's personal library.

In 'new age' parlance I find the term mind-body connection as useful here in depicting the
matter of how great an influence Mitchell may have been. Assuming (all we can do for now)
that Hogan did in fact read Mitchell, it would seem likely that the mental tenets of Abe's teachings
would bear heavily on the physical elements so much so as to perhaps take precedence over any
thing we may or may not see with our eyes. Martin uses the term '[b]intention[/b]' very effectively in his telling of it and I see that as possibly [b]THE[/b] most vital influence that Mitchell could have imparted on a seeker named Hogan. DTS

[downtoscratch]

For Joe or anyone else with questions about Abe's 'intentions'............... get hold of one of those
Whippy Tempomaster buggy whip type practice clubs and throw that thing back while resisting
with both arms and body the inclination of the flexible shaft. Throw it back while holding 'towards'
the target and then you might find some new ground to explore...... dts

[martinez]

Intent is everything. Want to stop hooking it? Get yourself in a position from where it's physically impossible to hook it and give it 'plenty'.

[downtoscratch]

Who said intent is everything......... this fellow did!

A man with clear intention is a force to be reckoned with.....

[Dariusz J.]

A couple of very fine posts, Gents. Great discussion above = great read.

[quote name='downtoscratch' post='2155990' date='Jan 2 2010, 10:18 AM']<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/-ayFJ160jyg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/-ayFJ160jyg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/quote]

Looks at Martin's hips FO view in a slo-mo ---> he's got it !
Martin, time to present a rear view of your swing. As said on YT - your route may be the biggest thing in golf instruction nowadays. I am deadly serious now.

Cheers

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='downtoscratch' post='2155990' date='Jan 2 2010, 09:18 AM']Who said intent is everything......... this fellow did!

A man with clear intention is a force to be reckoned with.....


[/quote]

he certainly has the awesome dial turned up ...lol.

as a quick side note, how do you like those shoes M, are they the 360's, im thinking of getting the 4.0's, do you think lower is better or hype?

[martinez]

Thanks for the comments guys

DJ- I'll get a RV vid up soon.

Joe-The shoes are great, easily the best shoes I have worn since my last pair of FJ Classics with Steel spikes wore out. Very comfortable and they feel very stable.

[sacto83]

[size=3]I’m new to this forum and surprised to see a section on the Hogan swing. I’ve been more than a casual student of his swing for years. I’ll offer the following info for consideration:[/size]

[size=3] [/size]

[size=3]For those interested in the take-away in the Abe Mitchel material, I’d suggest looking at Joe Dante’s “Four Magic Moves.” An instructor in the Vardon era whose teachings were not published until 1995 by his estate, he advocates the same no-roll take away as Mitchel, with perhaps better illustrations of the two knuckles showing in the trail hand. IMO this is one of the better books for golf instruction; covering the same release and lower body movement used by Hogan during his pre-accident years. The type of take away does in fact “lock the wrists” at the top [/size]

[size=3] [/size]

[size=3]Dan Shauger in “How to Kill The Ball” teaches the Mike Austin mechanics as taught to him by Mike and uses the same type of take away with a slight counter clockwise rotation of the forearms during the backswing. This may fit with Mitchel’s “resistance” though he doesn’t explain it that way.[/size]

[size=3] [/size]

[size=3]I’ve been using the Dante type of take away for many years with very satisfying results.[/size]

[size=3] [/size]

[size=3]I don’t know if the following has been mentioned in a thread here previously, if so excuse the redundancy, but for Hogan followers, I strongly recommend a recent book, “The Final Missing Piece of Ben Hogan’s Secrete Puzzle”, by V.J Trolio, a PGA player and instructor, published in 2007. Here he compares the pre and post accident swing of Hogan and demonstrates through excellent film frames how Hogan was able to get the center of gravity in line with the pivot point during the backswing. He establishes, with excellent evidence, that Hogan (post accident) slid the hips left DURING the backswing so that at the top of the swing he had most of the weight on the lead foot and all he had to do was rotate the left hip to start the downswing (no slide necessary since he had performed it during the backswing). Sort of a “stack and tilt” move without the tilt as Snead and many other pros did. The means Trolio uses to document this move is outstanding (film frames I hadn’t seen before from behind, not down the line) and he explains the physics and geometry calculations (from a reputable source) to show the mechanical advantage obtained by moving the center of gravity over the pivot point before the downswing. Hogan could pivot as fast as he chose without moving off plane. Through experience I can say that it works well … powerful and accurate. No, I have no affiliation with either the author or the publisher.[/size]

[size=3]Yup, more “stuff” to read and more so called “secrets” to uncover, but this read is well worth it. [/size]

[moehogan]

[quote name='sacto83' post='2166977' date='Jan 7 2010, 11:52 AM'][size=3]I'm new to this forum and surprised to see a section on the Hogan swing. I've been more than a casual student of his swing for years. I'll offer the following info for consideration:[/size]

[size=3][/size]

[size=3]For those interested in the take-away in the Abe Mitchel material, I'd suggest looking at Joe Dante's "Four Magic Moves." An instructor in the Vardon era whose teachings were not published until 1995 by his estate, he advocates the same no-roll take away as Mitchel, with perhaps better illustrations of the two knuckles showing in the trail hand. IMO this is one of the better books for golf instruction; covering the same release and lower body movement used by Hogan during his pre-accident years. The type of take away does in fact "lock the wrists" at the top [/size]

[size=3][/size]

[size=3]Dan Shauger in "How to Kill The Ball" teaches the Mike Austin mechanics as taught to him by Mike and uses the same type of take away with a slight counter clockwise rotation of the forearms during the backswing. This may fit with Mitchel's "resistance" though he doesn't explain it that way.[/size]

[size=3][/size]

[size=3]I've been using the Dante type of take away for many years with very satisfying results.[/size]

[size=3][/size]

[size="3"]I don't know if the following has been mentioned in a thread here previously, if so excuse the redundancy, but for Hogan followers, I strongly recommend a recent book, "The Final Missing Piece of Ben Hogan's Secrete Puzzle", by V.J Trolio, a PGA player and instructor, published in 2007. Here he compares the pre and post accident swing of Hogan and demonstrates through excellent film frames how Hogan was able to get the center of gravity in line with the pivot point during the backswing. He establishes, with excellent evidence, that Hogan (post accident) slid the hips left DURING the backswing so that at the top of the swing he had most of the weight on the lead foot and all he had to do was rotate the left hip to start the downswing (no slide necessary since he had performed it during the backswing). Sort of a "stack and tilt" move without the tilt as Snead and many other pros did. The means Trolio uses to document this move is outstanding (film frames I hadn't seen before from behind, not down the line) and he explains the physics and geometry calculations (from a reputable source) to show the mechanical advantage obtained by moving the center of gravity over the pivot point before the downswing. Hogan could pivot as fast as he chose without moving off plane. Through experience I can say that it works well … powerful and accurate. No, I have no affiliation with either the author or the publisher.[/size]

[size=3]Yup, more "stuff" to read and more so called "secrets" to uncover, but this read is well worth it. [/size][/quote]

Sir,

What is the Mitchell-Trolio connection?

MH

[hoolio99]

Gents,

I stumbled across some footage of Abe that you guys may be interested in. I'm not sure how much it will add to the discussion but its cool to see. Its quite a cut off follow through he has.

[size="2"]

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=4601

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=24099

[/size]

[CRHgolfer]

[quote name='hoolio99' date='11 January 2010 - 09:25 PM' timestamp='1263266746' post='2176054']
Gents,

I stumbled across some footage of Abe that you guys may be interested in. I'm not sure how much it will add to the discussion but its cool to see. Its quite a cut off follow through he has.

[size="2"]

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=4601

http://www.britishpathe.com/record.php?id=24099

[/size]
[/quote]


Great footage! That was really interesting and no kidding that is one sawed off swing!

[martinez]

That's fantastic great find......I think you may have made DTS's decade, and it's only 12 days in.