Abe Mitchell and Ben Hogan

[downtoscratch]

I'd concur with Martinez....... very little in Length on the Links that's not in DTS. Seems we here at GolfWRX have stimulated this economy to some degree by depleting the supply of Mitchell's books........... look at this price quote!!! Also see two available at a somewhat more reasonable asking price. DTS

[quote name='dream_stryker' post='2086220' date='Nov 26 2009, 11:20 AM'][quote name='golfbulldog' post='2083968' date='Nov 25 2009, 01:55 AM']Will work at getting a PDF together for each book...may take some time to scan. They are cracking little books - not got "Essentials of Golf" - you can see why Samulel Ryder was so keen to keep him as his own pro at Verulam Golf Club [url="http://www.verulamgolf.co.uk/"]http://www.verulamgolf.co.uk/[/url] Check out the History section at Verulam and the Ryder CUp video![/quote]


+1 for the PDF..... My order for DTS got canceled today by bookstore I bought it from. I'm sad.....but the turkey Im about to eat is going to make me happy again

In the meantime I'll keep scrounging for a copy. Some components I discovered that worked for my swing were already in the pages posted. I am anxious for Abe to fill in the rest for me!
[/quote]


[quote name='NINEBALL' post='2087142' date='Nov 26 2009, 11:15 PM']Golfbulldog and Jerry,

Got DTS on order through Abe Books. Couldn't find an affordable copy of LOL. Any thoughts on where to find LOL without draining the bank account?

The pages GBD scanned and posted are true gems.
2 things I've picked up so far that I am thrilled with:

1.) Abe's "double palm grip". great for me with shorter fingers.
2.) left stretch


Jerry and GBD,

Thank you again for bringing this to our attention. Really looking forward to receiving Down to Scratch.

These books appear to have advantages over 5 lessons in painting a clear picture. Guess Abe couldn't sell as many copies as Ben simply because he didn't have the impressive resume to attract attention. What a shame.


Great, great stuff!

Cheers[/quote]


[quote name='martinez' post='2087156' date='Nov 26 2009, 11:28 PM']IMO, TIVL in LOL that isn't in DTS. FWIW.

ROFL acronym OL.[/quote]

[downtoscratch]

Found this account written long ago................. History repeats!

MITCHELL'S DRIVE
All the talk is still of Abe Mitchell and his methods. Everybody wants to know more of him. "Mitchell", says Daryn Hammond in Golfing, "drives a high ball, a higher ball than
Vardon, practically as high as Ray. He stands comfortably close to it, his action is conspicuously controlled, and it combines the Braid hit with the Vardon follow-through.
The Vardon follow-through, be it noted; not the Vardon finish. "In Braid's drive there is an element of the stab or jab. In Mitchell's there is not. Mitchell's club head
smashes through the ball just as Vardon's does, but at considerably greater pace. But Mitchell's action does not resolve itself into a statuesque finish. There is too much of the
hitting [b]intention[/b] in it for that. The hitting [b]intention[/b] defeats the statuesque finish. It is the hitting[b] intention[/b] that saves, not only Mitchell, but Braid and Ray,
from the heroic gesture. It is not, of course, suggested that the hitting element is entirely absent from the Vardon swing, for it is undoubtedly there. But it is not there in equal
degree. The rythmic notion underlies and colours the Vardon mental picture.

[IH82BOGEY]

Interesting how Abe emphasizes the "knees holding" and "delaying the pivot". This was my first thought when I saw Hogan doing the concentration drill in the Coleman backyard footage a long time ago. When I first saw that footage, I thought Hogan was trying to stay back on the right braced pivot point longer than it looks at full speed. I thought well maybe this is one of those feeling things versus what is actually happening. I thought the same thing while watching Martinez first installment of bow to crossbow. Staying on the right pivot point a tad longer.......interesting.

[downtoscratch]

IH8,
You have a very good eye for detail. While we may
only speculate where Hogan's intention is concerned we
have only to follow Martinez's thread to see just how
good your analysis truly is. Dts

[golfbulldog]

The 2 versions of Hogan Slow-motion drill on youtube:-
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ5JyxOJYJM&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ5JyxOJYJM...feature=related[/url]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNlUKLPFwQE&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNlUKLPFwQE...feature=related[/url]

[chanty311]

[quote name='downtoscratch' post='2088428' date='Nov 27 2009, 08:07 PM'][quote name='chanty311' post='2088352' date='Nov 27 2009, 06:31 PM'][url="http://hogansangle.com/index.php?p=10"]Isn't this a simpler explanation?[/url][/quote]

No,.......... no it isn't.
[/quote]

But it's so simple.

[Ezgolfer]

Stop ...messin this thread ...

[dream_stryker]

[quote name='IH82BOGEY' post='2089282' date='Nov 28 2009, 08:15 AM']Interesting how Abe emphasizes the "knees holding" and "delaying the pivot". This was my first thought when I saw Hogan doing the concentration drill in the Coleman backyard footage a long time ago. When I first saw that footage, I thought Hogan was trying to stay back on the right braced pivot point longer than it looks at full speed. I thought well maybe this is one of those feeling things versus what is actually happening. I thought the same thing while watching Martinez first installment of bow to crossbow. Staying on the right pivot point a tad longer.......interesting.[/quote]


[quote name='downtoscratch' post='2089368' date='Nov 28 2009, 09:35 AM']IH8,
You have a very good eye for detail. While we may
only speculate where Hogan's intention is concerned we
have only to follow Martinez's thread to see just how
good your analysis truly is. Dts[/quote]

I don't think there is anyway this intention did NOT factor into the equation. My speculation is that the staying back on the right side was to prevent the right lateral oblique from interfering with the free swinging of the right arm through the hitting area.

I know the later videos show him shifting left during the transition but during his prime he didn't. Guess he had more than one way to keep from having to re-route the right arm. Fire away if anyone disagrees...its just a theory I'm chewing on.

[dream_stryker]

DTS,

Having spent alot more time than us experimenting with Mr Mitchell's fundamentals than the rest of us. How much would you say is predicated by the use of hickory during that time period.

[Ezgolfer]

Good question......

[downtoscratch]

Very good question..........Abe lived in the hickory era and as such it goes without saying
that hickory was a key to his technique. I feel that the inherent nature of the hickory shaft
led Abe to his formula of winding the muscles towards the target. In a way then, it is no sure
thing that he would have arrived at the same 'muscle set' without the influence of those
torquey wooden shafts. It is said that Abe did not take well to the advent of steel, so great
was his affinity for the more flexible hickory shaft of his youth. Even so, while it was not such a smooth transition for him personally, the concepts he gave us hold no less favor in the post
hickory days in which we reside, IMO. DTS

[quote name='dream_stryker' post='2092223' date='Nov 29 2009, 09:30 PM']DTS,

Having spent alot more time than us experimenting with Mr Mitchell's fundamentals than the rest of us. How much would you say is predicated by the use of hickory during that time period.[/quote]

[honketyhank]

yeah, it IS a good question. I mean there are aspects of Bobby Jones' swing that work for me even when I know they are not really used nowadays but were then because of the 'whippy' hickory shafts that could actually break under the strain of today's swing methods.

For example, that one piece takeaway of everything except the clubhead, then the clubhead follows and kinda gets into a loopy whippy downcock. Sure can knock the p-fire out of the ball with that (as long as you actually hit the ball). His videos make it look easy.

[downtoscratch]

[quote name='dream_stryker' post='2092190' date='Nov 29 2009, 09:15 PM'][quote name='IH82BOGEY' post='2089282' date='Nov 28 2009, 08:15 AM']Interesting how Abe emphasizes the "knees holding" and "delaying the pivot". This was my first thought when I saw Hogan doing the concentration drill in the Coleman backyard footage a long time ago. When I first saw that footage, I thought Hogan was trying to stay back on the right braced pivot point longer than it looks at full speed. I thought well maybe this is one of those feeling things versus what is actually happening. I thought the same thing while watching Martinez first installment of bow to crossbow. Staying on the right pivot point a tad longer.......interesting.[/quote]


[quote name='downtoscratch' post='2089368' date='Nov 28 2009, 09:35 AM']IH8,
You have a very good eye for detail. While we may
only speculate where Hogan's intention is concerned we
have only to follow Martinez's thread to see just how
good your analysis truly is. Dts[/quote]

I don't think there is anyway this intention did NOT factor into the equation. My speculation is that the staying back on the right side was to prevent the right lateral oblique from interfering with the free swinging of the right arm through the hitting area.

I know the later videos show him shifting left during the transition but during his prime he didn't. Guess he had more than one way to keep from having to re-route the right arm. Fire away if anyone disagrees...its just a theory I'm chewing on.
[/quote]

Stryker,
Would you care to elaborate on this 'right lateral oblique' interference concept.
I believe I understand what it is you are alluding to but as the saying goes.... Assume makes an *** out of you and me!! dts

[martinez]

If I can address DS's question wrt hickory shafts.....
Hickory had more torque, Abes' method absorbs the torque of the shaft into the right arm and contains it for a straight line delivery of the sweet spot. The concept works very well in the steel/graphite era if you use it that way.

[dream_stryker]

[quote name='downtoscratch' post='2092379' date='Nov 29 2009, 10:24 PM']Very good question..........Abe lived in the hickory era and as such it goes without saying
that hickory was a key to his technique. I feel that the inherent nature of the hickory shaft
led Abe to his formula of winding the muscles towards the target. In a way then, it is no sure
thing that he would have arrived at the same 'muscle set' without the influence of those
torquey wooden shafts. It is said that Abe did not take well to the advent of steel, so great
was his affinity for the more flexible hickory shaft of his youth. Even so, while it was not such a smooth transition for him personally, the concepts he gave us hold no less favor in the post
hickory days in which we reside, IMO. DTS

[quote name='dream_stryker' post='2092223' date='Nov 29 2009, 09:30 PM']DTS,

Having spent alot more time than us experimenting with Mr Mitchell's fundamentals than the rest of us. How much would you say is predicated by the use of hickory during that time period.[/quote]
[/quote]


[quote name='martinez' post='2092463' date='Nov 29 2009, 11:12 PM']If I can address DS's question wrt hickory shafts.....
Hickory had more torque, Abes' method absorbs the torque of the shaft into the right arm and contains it for a straight line delivery of the sweet spot. The concept works very well in the steel/graphite era if you use it that way.[/quote]

Gents,

Your endorsements of the current value and timelessness of these concepts are good enough for me!

[dream_stryker]

[quote name='downtoscratch' post='2092425' date='Nov 29 2009, 10:49 PM'][quote name='dream_stryker' post='2092190' date='Nov 29 2009, 09:15 PM'][quote name='IH82BOGEY' post='2089282' date='Nov 28 2009, 08:15 AM']Interesting how Abe emphasizes the "knees holding" and "delaying the pivot". This was my first thought when I saw Hogan doing the concentration drill in the Coleman backyard footage a long time ago. When I first saw that footage, I thought Hogan was trying to stay back on the right braced pivot point longer than it looks at full speed. I thought well maybe this is one of those feeling things versus what is actually happening. I thought the same thing while watching Martinez first installment of bow to crossbow. Staying on the right pivot point a tad longer.......interesting.[/quote]


[quote name='downtoscratch' post='2089368' date='Nov 28 2009, 09:35 AM']IH8,
You have a very good eye for detail. While we may
only speculate where Hogan's intention is concerned we
have only to follow Martinez's thread to see just how
good your analysis truly is. Dts[/quote]

I don't think there is anyway this intention did NOT factor into the equation. My speculation is that the staying back on the right side was to prevent the right lateral oblique from interfering with the free swinging of the right arm through the hitting area.

I know the later videos show him shifting left during the transition but during his prime he didn't. Guess he had more than one way to keep from having to re-route the right arm. Fire away if anyone disagrees...its just a theory I'm chewing on.
[/quote]

Stryker,
Would you care to elaborate on this 'right lateral oblique' interference concept.
I believe I understand what it is you are alluding to but as the saying goes.... Assume makes an *** out of you and me!! dts
[/quote]

Sure DTS.

When taking the address posture. The free swing of the arms from the shoulders to the hands is established. On the downswing, if the lower right oblique (around the hip area) moves towards the ball-target...or closer to the ball...the path of the right arm is going to be interfered with. Since both hands are connected to the club...the left arm is going to be affected as well. If that area moves laterally or slightly back.....secondary axis tilt is created.

The feeling I like to have in a practice swing is that I can turn my right hip towards the target and not disturb my shoulder plane.

[dream_stryker]

[quote name='martinez' post='2092463' date='Nov 29 2009, 11:12 PM']If I can address DS's question wrt hickory shafts.....
Hickory had more torque, Abes' method absorbs the torque of the shaft into the right arm and contains it for a straight line delivery of the sweet spot. The concept works very well in the steel/graphite era if you use it that way.[/quote]

Martinez,

Enjoy reading about the Xmas cheer you've been spreading through your clinics. Hopefully, the orlando/tampa area makes it on your travel list. Your swing concepts are esoteric enough that I know I'd have to be guided through them to experience your ideas correctly.

Does the right arm torque absorption you mentioned relate to Abe's guidance about right bicep tension? Do you have any keys for how to experience this? I don't think I was successful (which abe said many were until he showed them).

I originally thought the right bicep would be a useful muscle group but I read an article over on Kelvin Miyahira's site and he explained they killed speed. I know better now because last week an accomplished player I play with confirmed right bicep importance as well.

[downtoscratch]

Stryker,
Armed with a better understanding of your thoughts and feelings I will wisely
defer to Martin on this one as I too held (for a very long time) to a similar view. My eyes
were opened and I now have a better grasp on this very issue. You will too in due time I'm sure. Enjoy the journey...... it's a fun ride! dts

[quote name='dream_stryker' post='2092492' date='Nov 29 2009, 11:32 PM'][quote name='downtoscratch' post='2092425' date='Nov 29 2009, 10:49 PM'][quote name='dream_stryker' post='2092190' date='Nov 29 2009, 09:15 PM'][quote name='IH82BOGEY' post='2089282' date='Nov 28 2009, 08:15 AM']Interesting how Abe emphasizes the "knees holding" and "delaying the pivot". This was my first thought when I saw Hogan doing the concentration drill in the Coleman backyard footage a long time ago. When I first saw that footage, I thought Hogan was trying to stay back on the right braced pivot point longer than it looks at full speed. I thought well maybe this is one of those feeling things versus what is actually happening. I thought the same thing while watching Martinez first installment of bow to crossbow. Staying on the right pivot point a tad longer.......interesting.[/quote]


[quote name='downtoscratch' post='2089368' date='Nov 28 2009, 09:35 AM']IH8,
You have a very good eye for detail. While we may
only speculate where Hogan's intention is concerned we
have only to follow Martinez's thread to see just how
good your analysis truly is. Dts[/quote]

I don't think there is anyway this intention did NOT factor into the equation. My speculation is that the staying back on the right side was to prevent the right lateral oblique from interfering with the free swinging of the right arm through the hitting area.

I know the later videos show him shifting left during the transition but during his prime he didn't. Guess he had more than one way to keep from having to re-route the right arm. Fire away if anyone disagrees...its just a theory I'm chewing on.
[/quote]

Stryker,
Would you care to elaborate on this 'right lateral oblique' interference concept.
I believe I understand what it is you are alluding to but as the saying goes.... Assume makes an *** out of you and me!! dts
[/quote]

Sure DTS.

When taking the address posture. The free swing of the arms from the shoulders to the hands is established. On the downswing, if the lower right oblique (around the hip area) moves towards the ball-target...or closer to the ball...the path of the right arm is going to be interfered with. Since both hands are connected to the club...the left arm is going to be affected as well. If that area moves laterally or slightly back.....secondary axis tilt is created.

The feeling I like to have in a practice swing is that I can turn my right hip towards the target and not disturb my shoulder plane.
[/quote]

[Alefty]

This stuff is amazing. I can't wait to read all his books.

[downtoscratch]

Stryker said........ When taking the address posture. The free swing of the arms from the shoulders to the hands is established. On the downswing, if the lower right oblique (around the hip area) moves towards the ball-target...or closer to the ball...the path of the right arm is going to be interfered with.

Stryker, Here's a visual aid........ Martin's swing. Do you reckon his right oblique was in the way at any point here or was it a non issue? If I read you right you are referring to the more commonly expressed 'getting stuck' problem. If this is correct the difference here lies in the delivery method of those free swinging arms you mention. In Martin's case, stuck can't happen. The arms are 'contained' by the trunk so the right arm comes out without any
hindrances. dts

[downtoscratch]

Stryker said......
The feeling I like to have in a practice swing is that I can turn my right hip towards the target and not disturb my shoulder plane.

And a good feeling that is too. You are describing how not to get stuck here. How not to do the O'lay move.....
getting you under the plane and blocked. dts

[dream_stryker]

DTS,

Thank for the visual of Martin's swing. You're right. No way stuck happens with the way room is created in the backswing and transition. I have a couple ideas I'm going to try out the next time I practice. I think I know how to make this happen automatically. If it works...it will be a monumental moment in my 3.5 year swing evolution.

[downtoscratch]

[quote name='dream_stryker' post='2096859' date='Dec 1 2009, 11:06 PM']DTS,

Thank for the visual of Martin's swing. You're right. No way stuck happens with the way room is created in the backswing and transition. I have a couple ideas I'm going to try out the next time I practice. I think I know how to make this happen automatically. If it works...it will be a monumental moment in my 3.5 year swing evolution. [/quote]

Great......... let us know how those ideas work out. dts

[chris_golf]

[attachment=504239:LengthOnTheLinks2.jpg][attachment=504240:LengthOnTheLinks.jpg
]

"Mitchell is the game´s greatest doctor and stylist." - a Ryder Cup player...

[b][color="#ff0000"]Thank you all for introducing me to Abe Mitchell![/color][/b]

Today I ordered Length on the links from E-bay.co.uk for 19,99 Pounds
and still waiting for my Down to Scratch for 15 Pounds...
Sure they are old - but I love to own this classics.
Like with your Golfswing you need patience to find it... or a bit lucky...

Chris

[downtoscratch]

[quote name='chris_golf' post='2103329' date='Dec 4 2009, 02:13 PM'][attachment=504239:LengthOnTheLinks2.jpg][attachment=504240:LengthOnTheLinks.jpg
]

"Mitchell is the game´s greatest doctor and stylist." - a Ryder Cup player...

[b][color="#ff0000"]Thank you all for introducing me to Abe Mitchell![/color][/b]

Today I ordered Length on the links from E-bay.co.uk for 19,99 Pounds
and still waiting for my Down to Scratch for 15 Pounds...
Sure they are old - but I love to own this classics.
Like with your Golfswing you need patience to find it... or a bit lucky...

Chris[/quote]

Chris,
Glad you found Abe here. I have been to your YouTube account and it looks like your
patience has paid off............. nice swing. DTS

[phillypete]

Thanks DTS for the jpgs!!

I've only read through the chapters you have provided once, but there is a lot of good stuff in there. Particularly the stuff about the right elbow at address. Most of the other stuff I have heard before from other sources who probably got it from here, but I never thought or heard about the right elbow turning to the target.

At first when I did this it felt SUPER weird and completely wrong, but then I worked with it. By maintaining that torque in the right arm it kept the club from getting too behind in the backswing, one of my biggest problems. Something that I have fought with my entire golf life.

Taking it out to the range I found it provided great results. Before I would have to think about "pushing the block of wood" and force myself to keep the club out. With setting the right arm at address it happens automatically. One less thing to thing about, one less thing to go wrong.

Another strange thing happen as a result of this action...

I had always seen a famous (now infamous) golfer with tape on his right ring finger. This struck me as odd because I never saw any wear and tear on that area. I've had to tape other fingers because of blisters and such, but not that one.

Well wouldn't you know, I had to stop after 200 or so balls because I had a sore spot on the right ring finger. Not sure that means anything, just thought it was interesting.

[downtoscratch]

pete,
I did bring Abe to this forum starting with my username and avatar.................. but the thanks goes to GolfBullDog for this thread and the jpgs. dts

[phillypete]

[quote name='downtoscratch' post='2105094' date='Dec 5 2009, 10:16 AM']pete,
I did bring Abe to this forum starting with my username and avatar.................. but the thanks goes to GolfBullDog for this thread and the jpgs. dts[/quote]


My bad!!


Thanks GBD!

[ballhack]

GBD

Thanks for the jps man it is great to be able to read the book since it is so hard to find. I collated all the jpgs and put them together into one big pdf file. AS more pages get posted ill add them in.

[chris_golf]

[color="#9acd32"][color="#2e8b57"]Chris,
Glad you found Abe here. I have been to your YouTube account and it looks like your
patience has paid off............. nice swing. DTS
[/quote][/color]
[/color]
Thank you DTS,

still unfinished journey - Golf invented slowness... and with the help of Abe Mitchell
I will come closer than I ever thought it is possible...

Saludos

Chris