Incompetent Salesperson

[Furrankee]

Why some employees at golf stores make you laugh

I asked a worker at my local golf shop why a number of the 905S's were priced at $400 when many other 905S and T's were price at $250. He said the 905S's came out a year later than the T's.

My goodness.

[scotte]

maybe he was confused and thinking you meant the R's????

 

 

 

who knows,

 

 

 

Wait, if this was at Golf Galaxy, he probably really didn't know the difference.

 

 

 

Have a good one,

 

 

 

Scott

[Boba]

Some people have a hard time with product #s & names. The guy worked @ a shop, so he should know something like that but how many guys @ a golf shop knows what a tn-87 is, or a better example might be cars. I can't keep track of the diferent models pumped out by mercedes or lexus. Sc 400, SLR, 190E who knows the difference? Besides me. (OK so that was a bad example) (on second thought, screw that guy at the shop, tell him to go work @ a wal*mart)

[krgolf]

The proper answer was "let me find out for you". One thing you have to consider is that store might carry 10 different manufacturers each providing possible 3 selections of irons and mayde 3 different wood styles. Companies have had a tendency to name there clubs with numbers.Thats alot of stuff to store going up against someone who know their single company question. Lesson to salesperson: Don't try to fake answers,consumers are too well educated.

[dpriester]

Amen brother.....if I'm looking to buy something new (clubs, cars, whatever), I do a little research first and then early in my conversation with the salesperson ask him a couple of questions I already know the correct answer to just to gauge the knowledge and/or BS level of the sales dude. If they don't pass, I'm out the door.....

[beninfluence]

The proper answer was "let me find out for you". One thing you have to consider is that store might carry 10 different manufacturers each providing possible 3 selections of irons and mayde 3 different wood styles. Companies have had a tendency to name there clubs with numbers.Thats alot of stuff to store going up against someone who know their single company question. Lesson to salesperson: Don't try to fake answers,consumers are too well educated.

 

C'mon, if you work in a golf shop you shouldn't need to fake it. It's your JOB to know all this and more! The only excuse is if you're new to the job and then you should find out the correct answer to the customer question as quickly as possible! WITH NO BS!

Ben

[dpriester]

Agreed. I was in a Golf Galaxy yesterday and overheard a new golfer tell the sales person that he wanted to buy some clubs. The sales person said they were running a special on some Adams irons. The guy asked if they would they be good clubs for him to learn on. The technical response was: "oh absolutely. These are really good looking clubs and they're easy to hit and stuff...."

[Leftygolfin]

People make mistakes. I don't want to jump on the band wagon of how dumb everyone is at golf shops. Its just like any other profession. There are people who want to learn and know everything there is to know about the profession, and those that are just trying to pay the bills with a job. Ive seen as many people who know nothing about golf working at golf stores as people who are very knowledgable in golf equipment.

 

Take for instance, I am a Police Officer and there are some of the dumbest people in the world that are cops. There are also some of use that take our job seriously and are very professional in every way. All it takes is one goofball to make the rest of any profession appear to be ignorant. Thats my 2 cents. :friends:

[Furrankee]

People make mistakes. I don't want to jump on the band wagon of how dumb everyone is at golf shops. Its just like any other profession. There are people who want to learn and know everything there is to know about the profession, and those that are just trying to pay the bills with a job. Ive seen as many people who know nothing about golf working at golf stores as people who are very knowledgable in golf equipment.

 

Take for instance, I am a Police Officer and there are some of the dumbest people in the world that are cops. There are also some of use that take our job seriously and are very professional in every way. All it takes is one goofball to make the rest of any profession appear to be ignorant. Thats my 2 cents. :friends:

 

That's why I said "some" retail golf salespeople.

[Leftygolfin]

 

 

That's why I said "some" retail golf salespeople.

 

I'm with ya. Its funny though how most of us on here that do not work in the golf business have a wealth of knowledge. I do find it amusing when I go into some golf shops and they know less about the equipment then I do as they try to sell me something that they are really just trying to move out of the store. Had a guy the other day trying to sell me some old Pro Combos by saying Tiger just switched to them. :friends: I just smiled and walked on.

[Huskypride28]

From my experience, you're not going to get a lot of technical and good information from a store like Golf Galaxy or Dick's. Those stores were designed to sell mass quantities of golf equipment to the average hack buying off the rack. Most of the people who work there are young kids or young adults working part time or during the summer. They're not going to know a whole lot. I'll buy my clothes and golf balls from Golf Galaxy but I'll never buy a club from there unless I already know everything about it. For technical info. I'll go to my local shop.

[CaptStubins]

A salesperson at a Boston store once refused to sell me clubs with extra-stiff shafts because I didn't have a swing speed of at least 165 miles per hour. When I told him that Tiger's swingspeed at the time was 119 mph, he told me that I was crazy. He also told me that his 160 lb friend at the shop swung 170 mph. Turns out he probably didn't know that there's a difference between swing speed and ball speed and had confused the two. In my opinion, if you're going to take a hard line and refuse to sell somebody something, you damn well better know what you're talking about. Besides, if I owned a shop and somebody came in and insisted on something that they couldn't hit, I would sell it to them. Obviously, I'd try to direct them in a different direction, but I wouldn't flat out refuse to do business with them.

[steve81]

i'll never forget the idiot that tried selling me Callaway x-18's w/ graphite regulars. "Phil Nickelson uses these same exact clubs and i can cut you a great deal"

 

first off, it's Mickelson with an M and second, he uses x tours with steel shafts i reply.

 

Golf Galaxy, employ people who know what they are talking about. All i needed was a dozen balls and on my way out, thats whent he "idiot" approaches me.

[lets_rahk]

Maybe Phil Nickleson did really play those clubs? And he was just using some misleading advertising on you?

 

Anyways, on a serious note, I don't mind if the sales person knows less than me, or doesn't have a clue about the lines of clubs and what not. Even though I think a good sales person should at least know about the products they are trying to sell. But what pisses me off to no end is if they just flat out lie to me. There's a guy at a store here called Golf Discount that just flat out lies and lies. I realize they are trying to make a sale but when you are going to try to sell me something I don't want you better not lie about it.

 

One example was I was looking to get a 58* xtour wedge with MD grooves (which I still am since they didn't have it). So they didn't have it, and then said I could just get a 60* bent to 58* which would be exactly the same and wouldn't change the bounce or I got get the 58* Forged+ Cally which has the same grooves just a little different head shape and finish. Oh, heh and then when I said that's not true he proceded to tell me grooves don't affect spin anyways. It was just like nonstop lies. He should have had some idea I knew what I was talking about at least even if he didn't. Then there was an disagreement over what a sweet spot is on a driver, but I'm done ranting.

 

I think I've been needing to get that off my chest for awhile.

[RagingAardvark]

Eh, it's the same all over. You're going to find some salesguys who know nothing, you'll find some that know a lot. Before I went to buy new clubs, I poked around and checked out a bunch of area shops. Found one where the owner worked there, he was nice and low-key, low pressure. I chose to go back to him for my club-fitting and sale.

 

I can tell you I've seen plenty of the dumb-a** salesguys in pretty much every kind of store. The most frustrating though is when it's the MANAGER who you find yourself arguing. When I was a Pro Team bike wrench, I went back into a local shop to grab a tool real quick. The guy told me Park (tool company) didn't make such a wrench. I sad "bullsh*t, I held one in my hands 48 hours ago".."it's not in the catalog", "bull, give me the catalog I'll show you", "no, I can't let you look in it", "I know how much you mark up your prices, I've worked in a shop I don't care, I just want the damn wrench", "they don't make one"..back and forth...my friend (who is now my wife) finally dragged me away from the man before I went over the counter at him. yeeeeeeesh!

[themouth1]

At least you guys have other options. We have one store on Big Island. It is called Island Discount Golf (Don't get me started on the name). I went in a few weeks ago and asked about a Bushnell Laser range finder. The guy that works in there says "We don't carry them, what kind of idoit would pay a monthly fee to use it". When I explained that I was not looking for a GPS but a range finder, he said "we don't stock them because they are very inaccurate and cost thousands of dollars and who would pay that?" I said you're right, I sure won't and left. I will NEVER walk in to that store again. This was my third trip in a year and I have always had similar experiences there. I will just wait until I make my monthly trip to Maui. What an idiot...

[Furrankee]

I remember one time overhearing one customer asking what the loft on the Ben Hogan hybrids were, and jokingly mentioned if he was supposed to know these things himself (he laughs, sales guy laughs).

 

So the sales guy then says, "I've hit those clubs; those are good clubs. You know what are better clubs? These. "They walk over to the Hogan drivers. The sales guy picks out a Hogan driver and says, "this club will give you an extra 30 yards...easy...best driver on the market."

 

You should've seen the look on the customer's face. :yahoo:

[willie991]

This is an interesting issue in our industry. I'll toss my 2 cents into the discussion. Oh well, probably more than 2 cents, but it's an open forum is it not?

 

Let's take this issue of knowledgable sales people step by step. First, small, "Mom & Pop", owner operated shops no longer exist. The big boxes (Golf Galaxy, Dick's, etc.) discounted product below where the small operator could make money. And, even when the prices might have been equitable, the perception with the consumer was/is that you could always buy cheaper at the big boxes. As the big boxes were eating away at the small shop's bottom line, ebay grew and grew and grew. On-line purchases of golf equipment has mushroomed the past 10 to 12 years. We have seen shop after shop close due to the inability to compete with the big boxes and the internet.

 

The big boxes are coporate ventures. The Board of Directors must be kept happy. The stockholders must be kept happy. Employees are paid poorly. Two concepts exist out there. Many of the chain operations pay a minimal salary and promise huge commissions. Sales people are given product lines that will enhance their ability to earn... if they sell that product. They will tell you whatever is required to push a high commission line or a product with spiffs. Others, such as Golf Galaxy, pay a low hourly wage... no commission... no benefits... You do have a pretty good discount program that will allow you to buy pro-line product economically. But, at the wages you are making, it is tough to afford the equipment at any cost. The sales people we typically find, today, are either young folks thinking they have a job in a fun field, will get to play a lot of golf, and will become instant golf pros. By the time the disappointment sets in, they go onto something more financially rewarding and another "victim" takes their place. We also see a number of retired or semi-retired folks. These people may play some golf, but most have never dug deeply into research within the field. They are working for a small supplemental income so they can afford to play golf on their days off and get "deals" on equipment. You just aren't going to find many salespeople in the current big box venue that have become educated in the field.

 

Okay, now let's toss in another little "glitch" within this industry. How many discussion boards like this are out there. Forged or cast? Blade or cavity back? 55 gram or 85 gram in a driver? TM or Ping? The discussion goes on and on and on and... there isn't a textbook that gives you the answers in black and white. You might walk into my shop, after filling your noggin with all the good ideas on a DB, already knowing what you want. Yes, I need X100 shafts, soft stepped, 1/4" long, and 4 degrees upright. Now, when I greet you and see you stand somewhere around 5'-2", in my mind I see these long stiff shafts inserted into highly upright irons that will have their toes sticking up in the air an inch and a half! If I even mention that you might want to try a little less upright iron, you go ballistic because you already know exactly what you need from reading discussion after discussion.

 

I remeber the early 90's when King Cobra irons first came out. On the backside of the iron was stamped "over-size". Taylor Made brought out one of their "dog" irons of that era and called it "mid-size". Yet, the mid-size iron was larger than the over-size iron. We would have customers come in and want oversize irone. That seemed to be the byword of that era. We would show them the largeest, most oversized iron in the shop and they would think you were off your nut! They would take the Cobra's home simply because they were stamped oversize and leave behind other irons not stamped such, even though they were larger. Yes, folks think grooves make balls spin more. That has been proven false over and over. From a clean lie, gooves make virtually no difference. From the rough, or when any grass or dirt comes between the clubface and the ball, grooves make a huge difference. Someone write a book that contains all the "facts" about materials of construction, weighting, inertia, shaft technology, launch angles... by the time you could write and publish the book it would be outdated by new technology or new product.

 

And, that takes us to shaft technology. One can discuss time and time again forged vs. cast. The end of that argument will be about as settling as arguing Methodist against Lutheran. In reality, we haven't seen a lot of changes, recently, in clubhead materials or design. The place where changes have really been mind-boggling is in shafts. We virtually had TT Dynamic shafts to pick from in the mid to late 80's. Ping was using a TT Lite (ZZ Lite) and we saw a very few Brunswicks. The single most utilized shaft of that era, in both irons and woods, was the Dynamic. Shakespere had experimented with fiberglass shafts. Sandvick was experimenting with titanium shafts. Aldila was just getting into the market with some early graphite. Graphite of that era "torqued" rather than "flex'd". You could not tell the stiffness of a graphite shaft from a flex board we had been using for steel shafts. We simply fitted the slower swingers with higher torque, in the 4.5 to 5.5 range. Most stronger players could handle lower torque to about 3. Only those with extremely high swing speed could handle the 1.8 to 2.5 torque range. But now, we have seen graphite take on a competely different personality. My goodness. You could write an entire volume just on shaft technology of today. Tip design... Launch characteristics...

 

If you went to school to learn all there is to learn about the golf industry, you should get a degree and a professional license. Yet, due to the retail environment of this industry, you would end up as an equipment rep or other position... not be "stuck" in a low paying retail sales position.

 

Yes, it is disappointing to see/hear the knowledge, or lack thereof, of the retail golf salesperson. But, it is nothing that has just happened this past year or two. The lack of knowledgable sales people is an industry crisis that has been coming on for some years. We won't change it. We will still continue to become experts on our own. We will continue to purchase what we think will improve our game from the big boxes or on line. And, sales people will continue to be employed that know very little about the product they sell. Our responsibility, as I see it, is to simply deal with it. It is not the retailer's responsibility to employ a phd in mechanical enginnering to wait on us. If the retailer employed more professional knowledgable sales people you would go there for advice and then buy on-line since the cost of employment would drive up the cost of product. We need to keep reading our discussion boards and making every attempt to educate ourselves.

 

The game of golf is 90% mental and the other 10% is all in your head. If we, in our minds, believe we are playing the equipment that best suits our game we will play better. I firmly believe a set of irons may be 2 to 3 degrees too flat or upright... but if we really believe they fit us we will play great golf with them. Gain as much knowledge as your mind can absorb. Then use that knowledge to enjoy the game. Golf is a game... a great game... a sometimes exasperating and frustrating game... but just a game. Most of all, have fun and enjoy the game.

[CyFan]

Way more than 0.02! And worth every penny! Excellent comments, couldn't be more on target!

 

Jim

[sergizmo]

Thanks for the great post willie! :yahoo:

 

Many people expect expert advice from people making minimum wage or slightly above. That is simply not going to happen in any industry. Wages will have to increase if more qualified/knowledgeable people are hired. Then of course prices will go up. Pick your poison. I'd rather do a little research, try the clubs out and make up my own mind.

 

I agree with the confidence issue when it comes to clubs. If a club feels good in your hands and you like what you see at address, good shots are more than likely.

[dbleagleks]

Great post Willie. :yahoo: Thanks for taking the time to make such a well thought out post. However, I would like to discuss a couple other disturbing trends in our industry today. The first (this will probably hit close to home and please don't take offense) is the Internet No-It-All. I'm seeing this happen more and more. Internet Joe (we'll call him IJ for short) walks into a shop after doing countless hours of Internet research on the equipment he wants. IJ is about a 10-12 hcp, pretty fair player, and knows what he wants; because if he read it on the Net, well then it must be true. IJ needs a 9.5* Brand X with the Internet $3-500 dollar flavor of the month shaft. When the salesman puts him on the launch monitor and suggests that he could use something else, IJ huffs out and thinks the salesman doesn't know what the heck he is talking about or doing. Reality for IJ is that what he thinks he is doing with his golf swing couldn't be further from the truth. I see these types of post on these boards all the time. You get some guy that read something on the Net, and then walks into Golf Shop X and quizzes the hell out of the staff to try to make themselves feel more superior to the guy in the shop. Let me be frank, these guys get paid to sell what is on the floor. They will push that before they will even consider your special order. Is that a good way to do business? Well that might depend on your perspective. Big Box wants to sell what is on the floor; they don't really care about your special order, because if you don't come back someone else will replace you. Let's be honest 90% of golfers or even folks reading this site don't need the shafts that we want. OEM's spend quite a while trying to find stock shafts that fit their equipment. Most of us should stop feeling as though we are better than the stock shaft.

 

The next disturbing trend I see is Big Box/Net purchasing. If you want a good idea about the equipment you should buy, get off the Net and go find a good PGA Professional to work with. They are everywhere. They can help you not only with your swing, but even equipment purchases (gasp!!) If you guys want to keep dealing with the "Incompetent Salesperson" than keep going to Big Box/Net and keep driving the guys that do this for a living out of business, than by all means keep shopping there.

 

One last thing guys, don't be the Internet Know-It-All. You'd be surprised how much you are really made fun of in the golf industry. Listen to other people that don't have a chat name. It's like Ben Hogan said, you never know where the genius is.

 

Good Night and Good Luck.

[chughes60]

I remeber the early 90's when King Cobra irons first came out. On the backside of the iron was stamped "over-size". Taylor Made brought out one of their "dog" irons of that era and called it "mid-size". Yet, the mid-size iron was larger than the over-size iron. We would have customers come in and want oversize irone. That seemed to be the byword of that era. We would show them the largeest, most oversized iron in the shop and they would think you were off your nut! They would take the Cobra's home simply because they were stamped oversize and leave behind other irons not stamped such, even though they were larger. Yes, folks think grooves make balls spin more. That has been proven false over and over. From a clean lie, gooves make virtually no difference. From the rough, or when any grass or dirt comes between the clubface and the ball, grooves make a huge difference. Someone write a book that contains all the "facts" about materials of construction, weighting, inertia, shaft technology, launch angles... by the time you could write and publish the book it would be outdated by new technology or new product.

 

And, that takes us to shaft technology. One can discuss time and time again forged vs. cast. The end of that argument will be about as settling as arguing Methodist against Lutheran. In reality, we haven't seen a lot of changes, recently, in clubhead materials or design. The place where changes have really been mind-boggling is in shafts. We virtually had TT Dynamic shafts to pick from in the mid to late 80's. Ping was using a TT Lite (ZZ Lite) and we saw a very few Brunswicks. The single most utilized shaft of that era, in both irons and woods, was the Dynamic. Shakespere had experimented with fiberglass shafts. Sandvick was experimenting with titanium shafts. Aldila was just getting into the market with some early graphite. Graphite of that era "torqued" rather than "flex'd". You could not tell the stiffness of a graphite shaft from a flex board we had been using for steel shafts. We simply fitted the slower swingers with higher torque, in the 4.5 to 5.5 range. Most stronger players could handle lower torque to about 3. Only those with extremely high swing speed could handle the 1.8 to 2.5 torque range. But now, we have seen graphite take on a competely different personality. My goodness. You could write an entire volume just on shaft technology of today. Tip design... Launch characteristics...

 

 

I believe Tom Wishon did write that Book. Check it out it's pretty good reading.

[arkstorm]

Many people expect expert advice from people making minimum wage or slightly above. That is simply not going to happen in any industry.

 

True enough. But if the guy being paid minimum wage at Golf Galaxy doesn't know the answer, he should be trained to tell the customer that he will find out and get back to him, rather than spewing some BS. In any industry, very few people are expected to know all the answers, but they should never just try to guess or make things up when they don't know.

[lets_rahk]

Not all sales people are idiots and not all consumers are idiots. And not all sales people and consumers are geniuses. But to spew forth complete BS is just silly. To be told that certain clubs aren't made would be like going to a used car dealership asking if they have a Mitsubishi and being told no Mitsubishi doesn't make cars, just golf shafts.

 

I know these sales people are trying to move the stock that have in hand, which is great. But obviously there are good sales people and bad sales people. Bad sales people tell you that you need what you don't want. Good sales people make you want what you don't need, and then come back for more.

 

In the end it's a business. You need to make a profit now and you need to make a profit later. You do that buy making sales and making the customer come back for more. Pissing people off doesn't accomplish either. Screwing people over might make the current sale, but they aren't going to come back for more.

[spk74]

At my local mom/pop store yesterday another customer was looking for a 64* wedge. Upon learning they didn't have any in stock, and without asking the customer any further questions, the young salesman tried to make the case against getting one. Meanwhile the customer stopped listening and started browsing around the store. He went on and on repeating the same pitch 3-4 times...the highlight of which was his claim that a full shot with a 64* wedge would only go about 20 feet.

 

Remarkable.

 

In the only retail job I've ever worked, we learned the following approach: contact, ask questions, recommend, encourage (CARE).

 

It worked well for me, I felt like I could sell a ketchup popsicle to a woman wearing white gloves. Asking questions, to me, is where the sale is actually made. Because if you don't ask enough of the right questions, you really can't make a good recommendation. Every customer knows that (even a dumb one).

 

The only other requirement is having an adequate knowledge base to ask the right questions...and then to take the answers and arrive at a solid recommendation.

 

In the case above, the salesman only knew the customer was looking for a 64* wedge when he started his sales pitch against the idea. Ultimately, after spending 15 minutes trying to convince the guy to change his mind...it came out that the customer has a very solid short game, had recently replaced a wood and an iron with one hybrid, and only had 13 clubs in his bag right now.

 

 

Also, I'm not sure about what willie wrote on the grooves not doing anything from a clean lie. I agree in the case of a driver (certainly)...but then as you progress down to a lob wedge, I tend to agree less and less. I've cut too many tiny parallel lines into the covers of too many golf balls.