"THERE MUST BE ENOUGH LATERAL MOTION FORWARD TO TRANSFER THE WEIGHT TO THE LEFT FOOT"

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='hoolio99' timestamp='1294930522' post='2893756']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1294926304' post='2893646']
About this Northwest fallback thing...I think all good players make the transition by shoving the weight diagonally on a 45* angle toward their left heel when they drive toward the target at the beginning of the downswing...so I agree with that. Hogan does this also definitely...he's no exception.
[/quote]

Tembolo,

Wouldn't toward the lead heel be South West if straight forward (i.e. where the shaft is pointed) is North? For me the SW happens with the right butt cheek right from the start of the backswing (right butt cheek over the lead heel feeling), and then fall lateral as the hips rotate target ward on the DS. My 2c worth.
[/quote]

oops, i was thinking of seeing the guy from a DTL view and the target was north, behind him west.

[SwingNV]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1294892491' post='2893223']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1294885244' post='2892909']...aside from that if Hogan is facing north then his linear counter-fall is north west imop...
[/quote]

+1, NW

[/quote]

+2 NW

I think it's obvious that his counterfall is definitely to the NW. Isn't this a function of Hogan setting up and maintaining a high right-hip? When you setup this way, it seems that the energy of the swing follows the turned shoulder plane up and over the right shoulder to the northwest.

As 8i stated, Hogan maintains a high right hip very late into the downswing, and doesn't level out until much later. As a result his right shoulder doesn't dip down and under plane, even though that's what he practiced in slow- motion. I think this also results in his very late secondary axis tilt that no one seems to be able to replicate.

IMO, Hogan was a pure swinger. So I see everything in his swing as trying to counterbalance the swinging mass of the club at all times. As a result, Hogan's weight shift is a lot more complicated then just shift right and then shift left.

[williambenjamin11]

Dariusz, I am not a critic. We are having arguments here as mature adults. I'm just pointing out what I disagree about your theories. Aint that what these forums are for? Now if someone don't want anybody disagreeing with him/her, he/she should go setup a fan club.

Now to topic, who said there should be no linear move in Hogan? I'll have to repeat myself again. Didn't I say there's linear motion BOTH in BS and DS? Yeah I did, and I think everyone agrees. Thought you do also. The remaining issue or point of our discussion here is HOW you do the linear part in DS. In BS, I think everyone agrees that its intentional. Now you're saying its off the rebound and still during bs? So how's that man, your hips rebounds and therefore move laterally while your upper body assemblyy is still turning away from target right? Ok, that's possible. But what is the effect on the upper body assembly (shoulders/arms/hands)? Ok, it pulls the shoulders/arms down.

Now the more important question is, how much or rather IN WHAT MANNER are they pulled down? I submit that the answers would be different between (1) if you do just a lateral, and (2) if you do an intentional rotation that also results to a lateral. In other words, in method (1) you shoot one bird in one stone; in method (2) you shoot two birds in one stone. Actually, not really different, its just that there will be MORE in method (2). There's an additional consequence in method (2) that you will not otherwise get in method (1). And I think that's what most is missing. You can actually add it on intentionally, but that's an additional timing thing, a lot of timing thing.

Now what is that you will miss out using method (1)?...

To be continued...

[TML]

was just about to ask the same thing.......how can it be NW?

[kcgolfer]

Eight, thank you thank you thank your for that video! Just last week , after over ten years of obsessive swing study, I had a breakthrough at the range. I actually made a post about it and had only one response . I FINALLY felt a true downswing with the lower body. I actually felt what 'staying grounded' means, what I always read from Knudson, and Hogan, and Faldo. I found that for over ten years I have been driving so hard with the lower body, getting way out ahead of it and either timing it right, hooking it, or pushing it. I for once stayed in my posture and at impact I felt like both feet were on the ground versus WAY up on my right toe! Thanks again. This guy says exactly what I felt that day.

Rear hip going back and up, then linear motion of slanted pelvis South-West until levelling hips, then rotation on the lead side. Of course there cannot be a visible border between these two types of motion so the first part of the downswing must be alas linearily rotational.

 

 

 

Not newest, nor best, but my own:

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=qYzlC7A294Y

 

 

 

Cheers

 

P.S. Chris, I like your swing. A bit too much reverse-K at setup for my taste (with all consequences) but the action is superb.

 

First I say that Hogan swing the camera guy is moving a lot, aside from that if Hogan is facing north then his linear counter-fall is north west imop. When I view your swing dariusz, I see the difference as to how we look at his motion differently , in particular the shoulder tilts , elbow location and counterfall , vertical forces and pivot towards the ball aka forward lean squat.......... now I think you can make changes to alter your swing to get more of Hogan in there........ camera angles can also not be precise , however below is what I see , simply Hogan has more oil drilling ( as Joe wrote ) and Hogan levels his hips much later

 

 

 

 

[chris_golf]

Hopefully this video will clear the lateral and rotational aspect of Mr. Hogans hipmovement... What a surprise that two of the best ballstrikers ever had almost the same pelvis motion: <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DSKnYE5JfmU?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DSKnYE5JfmU?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></object> We can only subscribe to what we know, and we can only know what we have experienced... Chris

[SwingNV]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1295023252' post='2896516']
To all believing in the N-W linear transfer - we know very well that Hogan's pelvis made the linear move being angled towards the targetline so how it is possible that neither his lead hip went further to the ball/targetline nor his rear hip lost its tush line (and even deepened a bit) assuming the linearity of the transfer ? You're fooled with his upper body motion, IMO.

William, answering your lectures I can also say that we're adults and there is no reasons that an adult would be afraid in putting a rear view footage of one's pelvis during transition. I am not wanting any fan clubs, but logical exchange of arguments, supported by some evidence if necessary - and I believe it is time to prove this and that. Now I can see that only 3 people in this thread are men with balls. And where are all those "N-W shift" fans ? Show us your N-W shifts, please, and people will estimate how Hoganesque they are.

Cheers
[/quote]


When did any of the NW guys say they could do it? Or pivot like Hogan? All we are saying is that it is our belief that Hogan shifted NW. If I could do it, then I would gladly share it with you, or you could just watch me do it on TV. Lol. I did get a new camera for christmas tho, and my new year's resolution is to start videoing and posting.

Does a linear movement have to be caused by a linear movement? When an athlete lets go of a shot put, it takes off on a straight line tangent to the release point of the circle he is rotating on. So just because you see linear, it doesn't mean it was caused by linear.

To me, it appears that the energy in Hogan's swing arc is responsible for him going toward the target. Imagine viewing a ferris wheel face on just as you would a golfer. There is only 1 really heavy cart on the wheel. There is also a stop at the 12 o'clock position. If you push the cart clock-wise with a lot of force, it will slam into the stop and cause the wheel to move to the right (target) if it is not secured really well. This is how I view Hogan's swing. It's the tremendous energy he creates that hits a stop that causes him to go towards the target at the top of his backswing.

I think Hogan was as close to optimal balance as a human golfer could get. But it appears as though he achieved this by constantly challenging his balance. IMO, Hogan is in perfect balance because he is so close to losing it. Challenge the human body's balance and force it to adjust naturally.

[williambenjamin11]

DBB, if I show you my swing footage, you'll definitely recognize me and my anonymity that these forums gives me will be lost, which you said earlier you respect, but now you effectively disrespect it with that s*** and big balls comment. The way I see it, a man stands up to what he has said. They call it "palabra de honor", aint that right Chris_golf?

DBB, we re analyzing Hogan here, and exchanging ideas about it. Hopefully that leads us to better understand him. So let's not be too sensitive and too emotional here if someone doesn't agree with us. Agree that video can clarify and prove things, but the vid doesn't have to be the poster. As I said, what I believe is imo can be best illustrated by the man himself in the Shell footage.

And your far from Hogan DBB. Just looking at your arms in bs its clear your very far from Hogan, with due respect, and that may be due to your body composition. Same thing with me and everyone else, so posting footages may actually be useless to some extent. So why don't we stick to written arguments, is that ok with you DBB? Also, did it not occur to you that the poster you are asking footage of may be an old fellow who can't show you his younger swing anymore which back in the days were among the top ten in the world? Or he's young alright, but if he shows you his swing he is iddentifiable by just looking at his swing. I think it was Jackie Burke who said he can identify a person just by his swing. That ok with you DBB?

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1295023252' post='2896516']
To all believing in the N-W linear transfer - we know very well that Hogan's pelvis made the linear move being angled towards the targetline so how it is possible that neither his lead hip went further to the ball/targetline nor his rear hip lost its tush line (and even deepened a bit) assuming the linearity of the transfer ? You're fooled with his upper body motion, IMO.

William, answering your lectures I can also say that we're adults and there is no reasons that an adult would be afraid in putting a rear view footage of one's pelvis during transition. I am not wanting any fan clubs, but logical exchange of arguments, supported by some evidence if necessary - and I believe it is time to prove this and that. Now I can see that only 3 people in this thread are men with balls. And where are all those "N-W shift" fans ? Show us your N-W shifts, please, and people will estimate how Hoganesque they are.

Cheers
[/quote]

Imop , this has already been answered , at least from my view point, you won't change my view ever , in fact imop with Hogans right arm . shoulder and elbow working in the opposite manner to yourself , he would have fallen on his a55 doing what you say

In regard to you continually ranting about posters golf swings, imop most would seem that they would rather remain anonymous , the other thing is a rear view is only going to show the tilts / cog movement not the direction of shift, which kinda makes me wonder why you want to see a bunch of golfers a55es .


Now you can go ahead and think we look worse than your polish 15 handicap buddies , but I doubt its the case. I kinda wonder how people put up swings that are so bad and so far away from Hogan that its gotta be a comedy or some kind of delusion

[williambenjamin11]

That's me DBB, I posted one of my posts 3 times. So I deleted the other 2.

[eightiron]

[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1295048905' post='2897380']
That's me DBB, I posted one of my posts 3 times. So I deleted the other 2.
[/quote]

Gee you short circuited the conspiracy theory, always abounds with the napoleon syndrome

[williambenjamin11]

Thought that's a gimme.. DBB=Dariusz Big Balls..

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1295050305' post='2897416']
[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1295048685' post='2897371']
DBB, if I show you my swing footage, you'll definitely recognize me and my anonymity that these forums gives me will be lost, which you said earlier you respect, but now you effectively disrespect it with that s*** and big balls comment. The way I see it, a man stands up to what he has said. They call it "palabra de honor", aint that right Chris_golf?
[/quote]

LMAO...I'll recognize you by seeing your pelvis area motion from the rear somewhere ? You overestimate my abilities despite I saw so many "experts" on various fora.......unless it is your alter ego here created specially to be nasty...

What's going on here on this Forum ??? I decided to put my trust another time after pathetic action upon myself (only upon myself !!!) but if it repeats, I am gone. My patience and, first of all, feeling of justice has limits as well.

Cheers
[/quote]

What he is saying , in english , is you will recognize him .... so most likely he plays on tour

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1295048158' post='2897357']
Interesting...someone deleted post(s)...my last one was on 6th page, now it's on 5th page...wonder why

Cheers
[/quote]

Can't see that post about all the 2nd rate american instructors who ate all the brains ( the one you made) , maybe its still there .... anyway what are these guys name?
Any on the forums ?

[hoganfan924]

Hmm, sounds like Dariusz is hitting the hooch again on. Friday night

Maybe WilliamB is Elvis, which is why you'd recognize his pelvis! Hehe

Appreciate the Welsh video Eight, Ill have more to say on that later.

BTW, Im not too good at directions. Which direction is North? Is it the target?

[hoganfan924]

I rather enjoy your drunken posts, Dariusz. They have a nice raw, unfiltered quality to them, although they're more difficult to understand. Never knew you got banned as sometimes I go long periods of time off the site. Place just isn't as much fun as it used to be!

[williambenjamin11]

Hey, I didn't say you have big balls Dariusz, you did. Just following your lead, I thought that's what you want us to believe what you are? Now that I agree with you you call me names? WSB=William Swings like Ben? Thanks DBB! LOL!

I think you gotta accept that someone else won't agree with you. I do. Don't really know who eightiron is, but I think he's bringing up valid points about the swing and its worthy of consideration, and I don't have to see his swing bec I can fully understand and picture it without any additional visual help. You do? LOL There's plenty of Hogan footages already.

Heck you don't agree with most posters who, in turn, I think are right on the money about Hogan! LOL no no no.. Im actually getting In fact you should thank 8i bec he's got the compassion to sacrifice some of his time to tell you what to improve on.. Yeah, he's trying to help you DBB, though I would imagine he's enjoying it too.. But what a compassionate man.. ROFL!

Know what, in my mind, I actually take note first of those who criticize and don't agree with me bec it will bring new ideas or may bring up errors in my swing, yours including. When I started discussing it with you here, I'm actually hoping you can convince me. I just believe now that yours I disagree with. I just can't. Nothing personal. Guess we have to accept that.. DBB.. Yeah, posting that swing of yours.. You really must have BB, really big.. You said it.. Not me..

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1295054002' post='2897531']<br>[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1295053645' post='2897514']<br>[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1295048158' post='2897357']<br>Interesting...someone deleted post(s)...my last one was on 6th page, now it's on 5th page...wonder why <img src="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/default/smile.gif" class="bbc_emoticon" alt=""><br><br>Cheers<br>[/quote]<br><br>Can't see that post about all the 2nd&nbsp;&nbsp;rate american instructors who ate all the brains ( the one you made) , maybe its still there .... anyway what are these guys name?<br>Any on the forums ?<br>[/quote]<br><br>Typical change of merits...like Russians...while losing the debate the best is to change topics...<br>...and as regards this guys name...I'll publish it while you publish your swing footage from all angles...<br><br>Cheers<br><br>P.S. I promised not dealing with GNOMES this year.<br>[/quote]<br><br>Hmm, <br><br>I thought i put forward what I thought about Hogan's linear shift and you decided not to debate some merits of those points , so I will put them forward in point form.... just my opinion naturally<br><br>1/&nbsp;&nbsp;Hogan gets deep pivot immediately <br>2/&nbsp;&nbsp;Although the right hip gets deep and is a delayed action of coming off the line , I believe this is due to the upper body / right shoulder external rotation, right arm abducting / pitch elbow( an area of rotation that effects the right hip, keeps it deep and delayed , which you disregard..... not so into active right foot eversion or stuff like that , since Hogan said the body moves the feet) .... whilst in the process of counter-falling/ linear shift / aka forward leaning squat towards the ball / left side tilt increasing, more towards ( as Joe wrote/ more oil drilling ) the NW direction ( north being golfers head is facing , and west being target )<br>3/ His hips level up and he rotates and gets out of dodge, although right side tilt should be maintained

[supercharger]

I do not see any northwest falling. I see an illusion from two other things that happen. If no one can show on video, it would be nice to read in sequence what hogan is doing on the nw fall by both how and why the body reacts this way.

[Dariusz J.]

I deleted all my posts in this thread. From now on I be will answering only questions directed to myself of those who really needs some help and believe than I can help with biokinetics. No more answers for provocations.
It is no longer worth, unfortunately to give all the heart on this Forum any more since no matter what I'd do it will turn against myself in the end.

Cheers

[jak_bot]

Oh man, looks like I missed out on some funny posts. There's always next time.

[hoolio99]

[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1295101366' post='2898274']
Oh man, looks like I missed out on some funny posts. There's always next time.
[/quote]

Me too. Serves me right for going out on a Friday night...

[hoolio99]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1294963048' post='2895028']
[quote name='hoolio99' timestamp='1294930522' post='2893756']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1294926304' post='2893646']
About this Northwest fallback thing...I think all good players make the transition by shoving the weight diagonally on a 45* angle toward their left heel when they drive toward the target at the beginning of the downswing...so I agree with that. Hogan does this also definitely...he's no exception.
[/quote]

Tembolo,

Wouldn't toward the lead heel be South West if straight forward (i.e. where the shaft is pointed) is North? For me the SW happens with the right butt cheek right from the start of the backswing (right butt cheek over the lead heel feeling), and then fall lateral as the hips rotate target ward on the DS. My 2c worth.
[/quote]

H,
If you look at that Joe post you will see hogans left foot move a tad closer to the line, also note hogans head movement, listen to some Jack Burke interviews and you may find the linear counter fall is more towards the front section of the foot

@ the who is chris welch......one of the worlds leading biomedical engineers
[/quote]

8,


Thanks for the thought provoking reply. I noticed this movement closer to the line with the left foot before, particularly in the Shell video when it is wet under foot. My interpretation was that the movement closer to the line was caused by resistance in the left leg/foot. I feel like I have to have some resistance in the left leg otherwise I find it hard to land on it the same way every time. However, looking at Joe's animation its hard to tell if it this move is caused by left side resistance late in the BS or the counterfall NW as you propose. I would be interested in hearing other people's thoughts on this point, so please chime it.

I will review the Shell footage again and also the Jackie Burke videos re the head etc. that I have access to. Are you referring to the McLean interview by chance?

hoolio

[williambenjamin11]

I think it can't be sw bec at Hogan's setup the weight is primarily in his heels and his bs process will further add and concentrate the right foot pressure in the right heel at the top of bs. If you go sw, you'll almost if not fall on your back, especially so since Hogan's posture is more upright. Hogan's bs process of keeping the flex and angle in right leg together with the torso turn and right arm/elbow abduction and external rotation of right shoulder that 8i mentioned will cause you to keep more weight in right heel and at a longer time. This also causes you to fall, and naturally to nw bec your sense of balance tells you so, otherwise as I've said you'll fall on or lose balance towards your back. That's what I feel. Just my 2 cents on the cause and how of nw fall off.

EDIT: Further I believe Hogan mentioned the nw fall off in his book, though impliedly, when he discussed the change of plane in ds. Again, that change of plane, which lateral axis will now point to right of target or nw is caused by Hogan's corrct rotation of hips at start of ds or transition as Hogan said. So it really seems from both Hogan's footage and words that its nw.

I guess if you're the type of golfer that puts weight primarily in the balls or towards toe of feet, nw may be unnatural as it will fight your sense of balance, hence the sw.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1295093470' post='2898150']
I deleted all my posts in this thread. From now on I be will answering only questions directed to myself of those who really needs some help and believe than I can help with biokinetics. No more answers for provocations.
It is no longer worth, unfortunately to give all the heart on this Forum any more since [b]no matter what I'd do it will turn against myself in the end[/b].

Cheers
[/quote]

...or you could just post anonymously, lol.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1295116601' post='2898707']...or you could just post anonymously, lol.
[/quote]

Never. I was taught to take all responsibility for my good and bad things, especially bad things. I won't hide behind anonymity even if my pleasure of posting about golf will be seriously limited.

Cheers

[Diz]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1295036489' post='2896953']
Hopefully this video will clear the lateral and rotational aspect of Mr. Hogans hipmovement... What a surprise that two of the best ballstrikers ever had almost the same pelvis motion: <object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/DSKnYE5JfmU?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/DSKnYE5JfmU?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></object> We can only subscribe to what we know, and we can only know what we have experienced... Chris
[/quote]


nice , Graves is a good one.....

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1295116601' post='2898707']
[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1295093470' post='2898150']
I deleted all my posts in this thread. From now on I be will answering only questions directed to myself of those who really needs some help and believe than I can help with biokinetics. No more answers for provocations.
It is no longer worth, unfortunately to give all the heart on this Forum any more since [b]no matter what I'd do it will turn against myself in the end[/b].

Cheers
[/quote]

...or you could just post anonymously, lol.
[/quote]

i was only half joking given the last few pages, ...but i think you are going to have to get over the fact that 99.99% of 'user generated content' online is either anonymous or pseudonymous, and the amount of producers of content is dwarfed by the amount of non producing consumers, lurking is the ultimate in anonymity.

it doesn't take 'big balls' to be personally identifiable, its just a choice made by people in different situations all the time for different reasons, don't you log in anonymously now, ...must be a sudden blast of chilly polish air when your pressing the button, rofl.

you've basically said you are only going to discuss your ideas with people who have faith in you, which [s]imo[/s] imAo is a slippery slope for a tgm basher, ..but your choice, cant see you sticking to it, lol.

[TML]

[quote name='SwingNV' timestamp='1295019636' post='2896376']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1294892491' post='2893223']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1294885244' post='2892909']...aside from that if Hogan is facing north then his linear counter-fall is north west imop...
[/quote]

+1, NW

[/quote]

+2 NW

I think it's obvious that his counterfall is definitely to the NW. Isn't this a function of Hogan setting up and maintaining a high right-hip? When you setup this way, it seems that the energy of the swing follows the turned shoulder plane up and over the right shoulder to the northwest.

As 8i stated, Hogan maintains a high right hip very late into the downswing, and doesn't level out until much later. As a result his right shoulder doesn't dip down and under plane, even though that's what he practiced in slow- motion. I think this also results in his very late secondary axis tilt that no one seems to be able to replicate.

IMO, Hogan was a pure swinger. So I see everything in his swing as trying to counterbalance the swinging mass of the club at all times. As a result, Hogan's weight shift is a lot more complicated then just shift right and then shift left.
[/quote]
would you guys say it's more west than north? I still am having difficulty seeing weight go 45 deg directly to first base.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

yeah, i would, more west than north, more north than south, but i think dariusz sees hogans foot alignment different to what it was, so that complicates things.

i'd say it's similar to a soccer goalkeeper in a penalty shoot out, by the rules they can't come off the line toward the kicker before the kick, but they all pump forward to spring the ground for vertical forces to move quickly.