"THERE MUST BE ENOUGH LATERAL MOTION FORWARD TO TRANSFER THE WEIGHT TO THE LEFT FOOT"

[williambenjamin11]

Pardon me MH (again ) if I used the word/s "on top of each other" and "stacked" as these are a bit misleading. That's why I originally (in my forst posts) and always used the word "aligned".

[williambenjamin11]

Also in my first posts, I included shoulder in alignment. Or did I? let me check...

[williambenjamin11]

Dariusz, what happens to your swing if you try just rotating the hips with left shoulder/hip/ankle aligned instead of just rebounding from rear side? You still hang back? The transition will not be automatic, but the rest will. In your rebounding method, the transition is automatic but the rest are I believe not so, hence resulting to less consistent shots.

[williambenjamin11]

I can see that you're somewhat pulling your right elbow during ds into a punch-ier elbow. That's a necessity in your case bec your arms/shoulders are ahead of your hips. If you will really rotate the hips FIRST, you will be in a pitch-ier elbow and I believe lead to more distance shots bec of more lag and more accurate shots bec your hands/arms are passive or less active at start of ds.

[supercharger]

Here is a link to show how the hard structure in the hips, legs find its limit and force the hips to rotate ccw. The elastic band hogan has on his hips in five lessons will be felt when the hips have fully rotated cw and reached a point linear toward the target which will be left hip over left heel. There is only one possible move the hips can do from this position. ROTATE CCW and lead the downswing. I bent over in posture to magnify the movements. Standing more erect as in a real swing these movements will be smaller and harder to see. This movement is at its best with a diaganol stance, but can be done with a neutral modern stance, just not as easy and in balance. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0Se7a0x1wY"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=p0Se7a0x1wY[/url] Here is another video during a swing using forced rotation of diaganol stance. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLMWURDd3ZE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLMWURDd3ZE[/url]

[Mike Ju]

doesnt the sevam1 trick accomplish the lateral weight shift? if there is a ton of pressure on the inside of your right foot torquing to the left, wouldnt that be an automatic, unintentional shift left as soon as you let it go?

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1294858971' post='2891813']
If you would look at the Amazing Grace video, he is keeping his elbows close. From what I've read, Hogan has calcium deposits or whatever and injuries that prevents him from keeping the elbows. But see that video with Amazing Grace music background.

Agree he didn't tell us when to move laterally. But in his swings its quite obvious. Plus, the maintaning of angle of right leg during bs and not thinking about the left heel lift during bs (which means no pressure on left foot during bs) (which both were mentioned by Hogan) would automatically cause the lateral fall off move during bs.
[/quote]


watch more video footage, more film showing him without his elbows close than not.

I think it's quite obvious for us because we are focused on it. If it was so obvious, many more people would be swinging with this fall back to the left side before the backswing is done action. There have been many more better players than both you and I who were probably as or more obsessed (i'm talking about guys that actually make it on tour) than Hogan, and nobody has anything close to this fall to the left motion action during the backswing. So there's no way this fall off to the left move is automatic during the backswing. You can keep your right leg bent, twisted, put pressure wherever or however you want, weight won't go anywhere unless you make it go there. I will say, however, that you can make this fall off move to be as natural as possible from constant repetition. But there's no way that this is automated or you'd have more people stumbling upon just the correct formula to make this 'automatically' happen and have more of a hogan-like backswing. Clearly hasn't happened.

Hogan's backswing and transition are very unique and you have to very much focus on creating it to make it happen. You will never accidentally stumble on it or get it to automatically happen because of bracing this leg or putting pressure here or there.

[williambenjamin11]

Dariusz, I'm actually the quiet or reserved type. But this golf swing don't fail to put my brain in turbo mode.. just want to learn Dariusz.. plus insomnia..

Re footage of my swing, I can show you personally if we are country-mates. But here in wrx, I prefer to be anonymous, hope everyone respect that. I'm also itching to show everyone just to support my points, but that would expose me to the paparazzis..

Anyway, I'm just following what Hogan said and trying to figure him out. Aint we all?

SC, I think being more upright in stance (as Hogan said) would help a great deal in making the fall-off lateral move and in turning the hips.

[williambenjamin11]

Tembolo, you're correct. Nobody seems to do it except Hogan. But try this, when you put pressure or weiht in right foot during bs, remove weight or pressure on left foot (exageration but just try, like a drill), then keep or maintain the angle in right leg, and I mean keep right leg flexed and totally still. The allow your right hip to turn and move towards behind you. You will surely fall back. If not, you are preventing it with left foot/leg. And the fall back is quick. Maybe that's why Hogan's swing is quick. Just my 2 cents.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1294883143' post='2892791']
Tembolo, you're correct. Nobody seems to do it except Hogan. But try this, when you put pressure or weiht in right foot during bs, remove weight or pressure on left foot (exageration but just try, like a drill), then keep or maintain the angle in right leg, and I mean keep right leg flexed and totally still. The allow your right hip to turn and move towards behind you. You will surely fall back. If not, you are preventing it with left foot/leg. And the fall back is quick. Maybe that's why Hogan's swing is quick. Just my 2 cents.
[/quote]


I know what you are trying to say, and surely for me I fall back because I do this almost naturally because this is a move I have incorporated in my swing from being a Hogan nut.

But it is NOT natural and certainly not automatic. All good players move into their right leg and most all of them bend over more slightly and get a deeper hip position as they complete their backswing. They rotate their shoulders and their hips, and none of them fall back. Why is that? Surely there are people out there as smart or smarter and with better ability to play than us that have made it on tour. Yet nobody does it quite like Hogan. Nobody moves right and left and is stacked ready to turn the hips left and smash the ball before the backswing ends like Hogan did.
I honestly believe this pivot sequence is a big part of why Hogan is Hogan. Means you have found out part of his secret!

I will agree that his tempo was quick in part because it matches his personality, and also because it was a good way for him to get his snap built up and delivered to the ball as efficiently as he could.

Surely you've never seen a guy make a slow swing when they do a forehand or serve...you would lose all your whip. It's the same in the golf swing.

Bang! Hogan is still king.

You sure you don't want to give us a sexy back shot like Dariusz did?

[Diz]

Hey Dariusz, when ur body unweights ur left heel and u floatback are u trying to spin ur left heel CCW to get thru it better?

diz

[eightiron]

Rear hip going back and up, then linear motion of slanted pelvis South-West until levelling hips, then rotation on the lead side. Of course there cannot be a visible border between these two types of motion so the first part of the downswing must be alas linearily rotational.

 

 

 

Not newest, nor best, but my own:

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=qYzlC7A294Y

 

 

 

Cheers

 

P.S. Chris, I like your swing. A bit too much reverse-K at setup for my taste (with all consequences) but the action is superb.

 

First I say that Hogan swing the camera guy is moving a lot, aside from that if Hogan is facing north then his linear counter-fall is north west imop. When I view your swing dariusz, I see the difference as to how we look at his motion differently , in particular the shoulder tilts , elbow location and counterfall , vertical forces and pivot towards the ball aka forward lean squat.......... now I think you can make changes to alter your swing to get more of Hogan in there........ camera angles can also not be precise , however below is what I see , simply Hogan has more oil drilling ( as Joe wrote ) and Hogan levels his hips much later

 

 

 

 

[Mathias]

There are some excellent discussions here gents, and I'm learning a lot from all of you.

To WilliamBenjamin11: I think you have valid points in this discussion (one that I agree, with regards to the rotation of the hips on the downswing). However, I think with regards to the 'fallback', I think what Mr. Darius meant with his 'rebounding' comment is related more to the backswing (not the downswing). Again, this is IF i understand both of you correctly.

But I also agree with MoeHogan (if I remember correctly) who points out that the pivot movement (in this discussion, the hips), is not really simply a left hip movement only that isolates or separates its movement from the right hip. It's a simultaneous movement of both the right and left hip (which is also what Mr. Hogan wrote in his book).

Now, with I believe this is how the lateral movement during the downswing happens (and this is where I had a lightbulb moment, and why I posted this topic in the 1st place):

- During the backswing, the right hip has to clear rearwards (so it's not a loading over the right foot, but INTO the right foot, just like what Slicefixer believes also). At the end of the backswing, there should be more gap between where the right hip was at address and at the top (this will show that we have pivoted correctly according to Mr. Hogan's fundamentals).

- The lateral movement happens as we TURN the left hip rearwards (as per the pictures in 5 Lessons). Now, since the right hip clears in the backswing, then by turning the left hip rearwards, the lateral movement HAPPENS. This can be seen by how the right hip's position during the downswing (the super brief moment when it's parallel to the target line) is more forward (when seen from the front) than its initial position at address. But what's important is to understand (again), that this is not an independent movement of the left hip ONLY. It is a very complex movement (for me) of both the left and right hips. In my own words, the left hip CLEARS, and at the same time, the right hip THRUSTS forward (I know thrust might be a bad word here, but I can't think of any other word atm).

Now, how this relates to MY lightbulb moment is: I have been guilty for so long of "humping the goat" (again, Slicefixer language here). And I realized that if I lose the right foot pressure too early, this contributes the overspinning of my hips because the right hip will THRUST not in a targetwards direction as in the illustration in 5 Lessons, but for a brief moment it will thrust forward a little into the ball before thrusting around towards the target (if that makes sense). And one of the culprits (and can be seen in my DTL video swings) is my left hip fails to CLEAR enough to create space for the right hip to thrust forward (parallel to the target line towards the target). So by keeping the FEEL of the pressure of the right foot while I CLEAR the left hip, due to my already overspinning tendency, the right hip will have space to thrust forward during the downswing. I believe if this is done correctly, we will achieve that Mr. Hogan's right foot 'drag' after impact (especially in the long clubs), depending on each person's physique. I have been at times able to replicate that foot drag (unconsciously) by just trying to get the correct pelvis movement.

I hope this makes sense. I'm afraid I might be a little unclear in some parts. Let's continue the great discussions!

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1294885244' post='2892909']...aside from that if Hogan is facing north then his linear counter-fall is north west imop...
[/quote]

+1, NW

[attachment=711667:shellzoom.gif]

[attachment=711669:footzoom.gif]

these should animate, ..if they don't just imagine a counter fall north west, lol.

[williambenjamin11]

Tembolo, ok, I think would have to agree that its not really automatic. Its just so in my case probably bec I've ingrained it already. But now in my swing, if I maintain the roght leg angle, I'd really fall off. Why? Probably bec I'm losing too much weight/pressure on left foot?

And its a timing thing as well bec you have to be exact on the amount, speed and timing of fall off in transition (not too early or not too late).

Re a sexy back shot, I'm afraid its hard to compete with Dariusz's on that one.. LOL plus I'd lose my "mysteriousness" and lose all the women...

[williambenjamin11]

Mathias, I think were saying same things also. There will be lateral in both bs and ds (although reverse k of slicefixer eliminated the need for lateral in BS). But, in DS, the lateral is only a reaction or consequence of the hip rotation. I'm just thinking rotate the hips (both left and right hips). Then the lateral, wiehgt transfer and all else will follow.

[Mathias]

Williambenjamin11, yep we're believing the same things. I think this is what Slicefixer meant when he said "there has to be lateral motion in the swing, but the lateral motion is contained within the rotation. The lateral feels like a rotation" (or something to that effect). Would really like to be able to visit him someday!

[williambenjamin11]

Yes, exactly! Aint he something? Never understood about anything especially Hogan until I read his posts/encyclopedia.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Mathias' timestamp='1294900157' post='2893417']
Williambenjamin11, yep we're believing the same things. I think this is what Slicefixer meant when he said "there has to be lateral motion in the swing, but the lateral motion is contained within the rotation. The lateral feels like a rotation" (or something to that effect). Would really like to be able to visit him someday!
[/quote]

We also have to remember that hips area is not a round circle. I would say that little bit more than a half of lateral motion we see on the dsw is actually rotation. Left pocket moves away from the target at bsw by rotation and comes back.

But relevant point of that move can be seen at the finish position. Toes are in the ground so for me it tells that left hip is just over the left knee and ankle.

Make a test: Stand normally and then push Your hips to the target and next rotate. What happens to Your toes? Your weight goes to the heel and outer part of the left foot and You are not in balance.

In Hogans swing I can see lateral motion, but no one has ever told me good reason for that.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

Hey Dariusz, when ur body unweights ur left heel and u floatback are u trying to spin ur left heel CCW to get thru it better?

 

diz

 

Good eye you have. No, unfortunately, no. It's an error. It's my poor flexibility issue. My lead heel shhould replant further closer to the target or, at least, in the same place. My lead knee RoM is very small causing muy leg to straighten too soon and it's difficult for me to replant the heel better. Moreover, my foot tends to spin out too early, consequently. However, I have learned some smallgreat stuff from The SITD site that may help me to correct this problem.

 

have you tried counterfalling NW like chris welsh explained ?

 

 

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[TeeAce]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1294912172' post='2893505']
[

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1294903637' post='2893464']In Hogans swing I can see lateral motion, but no one has ever told me good reason for that.
[/quote]

The reason is very simple - we are bipeds and the vertical axis of rotation during a rotary motion should go through/near a hip joint and through corresponding ankle joint so that theother leg did not block the motion with its resistance.



Cheers
[/quote]

I can't see that as an reason.

I see players should avoid any lateral motion and it still happens by other forces. I have seen lot's of players hitting push-slices just because they slide toward the target and are not strong enough to come back early enough.

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1294912172' post='2893505']
It is not my intentions to compare DETAILS of my amateur action to the greatest swing ever. I would not be able to do it physically, not mentioning that some details are still mysterious for me. My intentions are to create a coherent theory in macroscale that everyone can benefit from. A lot can be learned from Mr.Hogan in this field as e.g. how to automate the transition.
Lastly, his linear fall cannot be North-West because he wouldn't be able to maintain (or even deepen) his tush line as he did it beautifully. The trick is that he moved linearily his pelvis SLANTED to the South-West and levelled hips later on. IMHO.


Well I read that you said your pelvis / hip motion was similar to Hogan, seems to my eye its entirely different . How many times does that macro deal come out ...... what has that got to do with Hogan ?
And imop , no the S-W again , simply because you are not understanding that the pitch elbow / right arm abduction / external right shoulder rotation influence the hip motion and delay the right hip as the counter-fall motion occurs.
Your head motion is also entirely different , usually a good indicator of different body motion.......

[JOEGOLFWRX]

the second pane of glass 'awareness' in the back of the mind, a little NW, a bit tilted from the baseball throw description of the upper right quadrant of the body in space.

[tembolo1284]

Great posts everyone!

william, you cracked me up with that last post about the not wanting to show your backside for not being able to compete with Dariusz.

How about you get another person to do what you are saying so you can stay the mystery man?

If you are a famous teacher, player, or whatever...surely you can get one of your fans or students to do it for you and show us what you mean exactly? We are fellow americans right? Since we pass that test how about some footage baby!

Only kidding...if you are uncomfy...of course no biggie.

[tembolo1284]

About this Northwest fallback thing...I think all good players make the transition by shoving the weight diagonally on a 45* angle toward their left heel when they drive toward the target at the beginning of the downswing...so I agree with that. Hogan does this also definitely...he's no exception.

[moehogan]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1294926192' post='2893641']
Great posts everyone!

william, you cracked me up with that last post about the not wanting to show your backside for not being able to compete with Dariusz.

How about you get another person to do what you are saying so you can stay the mystery man?

If you are a famous teacher, player, or whatever...surely you can get one of your fans or students to do it for you and show us what you mean exactly? We are fellow americans right? Since we pass that test how about some footage baby!

Only kidding...if you are uncomfy...of course no biggie.
[/quote]
May I suggest wearing a ski mask while filming ... anonymity problem solved. Just make sure that you take it off before walking in to your bank's local branch.

[hoolio99]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1294926304' post='2893646']
About this Northwest fallback thing...I think all good players make the transition by shoving the weight diagonally on a 45* angle toward their left heel when they drive toward the target at the beginning of the downswing...so I agree with that. Hogan does this also definitely...he's no exception.
[/quote]

Tembolo,

Wouldn't toward the lead heel be South West if straight forward (i.e. where the shaft is pointed) is North? For me the SW happens with the right butt cheek right from the start of the backswing (right butt cheek over the lead heel feeling), and then fall lateral as the hips rotate target ward on the DS. My 2c worth.

[williambenjamin11]

ROFL! Can't do the ski mask thing MH.. I'm a royalty.. Too many protocols..

Just look at the Shell Wonderful World of Golf footage of Hogan in YT where he gave a lesson/tip and said that "the MOST IMPORTANT PART of the golf swing is the movement of the lower body...the hips and the knees..." (Heck, I even have that Hogan accent when I say that..LOL!) Then he describes it beautifully... Tie that in with what he said in 5 Lessons, and you can't go wrong..

[williambenjamin11]

Oh, btw Dariusz, when you look at that Shell footage, look at Hogan's right arm assembly, especially the elbow. That is a consequence of what he does with the hips. If you think and do only a lateral (instead of rotation) of hips at transition, you have to do that super intentionally, which is against your automation theories.

Btw also, now you're saying the rebounding thing happens in the BS? I thought the rebound is off the rear side reaching its limits in the bs, so much so that when you reach it you are automatically thrown into ds as you said with horizontal forces? Can you clarify? And please clearly, without technical words and galaxial scientific parables that seems to throw readers into a trance or hypnotic spell..

[eightiron]

[quote name='hoolio99' timestamp='1294930522' post='2893756']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1294926304' post='2893646']
About this Northwest fallback thing...I think all good players make the transition by shoving the weight diagonally on a 45* angle toward their left heel when they drive toward the target at the beginning of the downswing...so I agree with that. Hogan does this also definitely...he's no exception.
[/quote]

Tembolo,

Wouldn't toward the lead heel be South West if straight forward (i.e. where the shaft is pointed) is North? For me the SW happens with the right butt cheek right from the start of the backswing (right butt cheek over the lead heel feeling), and then fall lateral as the hips rotate target ward on the DS. My 2c worth.
[/quote]

H,
If you look at that Joe post you will see hogans left foot move a tad closer to the line, also note hogans head movement, listen to some Jack Burke interviews and you may find the linear counter fall is more towards the front section of the foot

@ the who is chris welch......one of the worlds leading biomedical engineers