"THERE MUST BE ENOUGH LATERAL MOTION FORWARD TO TRANSFER THE WEIGHT TO THE LEFT FOOT"

[supercharger]

Columbus was told the world was flat, which at the time was truth to all followers because, an undiscovered lie is truth until proven otherwise. I have not seen anyone come close to Hogan in regards to how he used the body for energy and balance except knudson. There is a reason for that. [quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1294798714' post='2890112']
Yep, he's gone for sure . So are those TPI blokes , don't know about the TGM reference , may as well throw them in ... gone
[/quote]

[eightiron]

so therefore who is columbus , the new leader of ground breaking science laws on wrx , lol ... yeah these guys studying , measuring stuff for 20 plus years are chumps

why don't you tell us why these chumps are all wrong or is it gonna be another straw-man argument where columbus and followers being experts on TGM, TPI and laws of science set up a misrepresentation of their work and think you debunk them ........ except the only thing you do is debunk a misrepresentation and clap yourselves on the back.... fallacious stuff imop

i didn't see these guys making any reference to Hogan, just to how things work in regard to ground forces , center mass, pressure , linear and rotational stuff

[supercharger]

No new science laws. Just old h*** sapien wired in balance to perform work laws. These guys studying for 50 plus years are not chumps, they are people trying to seek answers. The sad thing is money and prestige all influence a persons ability to think for themselves. which is why we have not gained any ground in the last 50 plus years. I agree the guy in the video did not make reference to Hogan. He is studying science of the human body in a straight line left brain mechanical robotic fashion. You posted the link trying to prove DaruisJ wrong. You are out of your league in how the body works to even attempt to dismiss DariusJ's worldwide public theory that is step by step written and shown in pictures. You will not even post a swing of your own or putt your swing theory in words here on wrx. [quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1294803671' post='2890309']
so therefore who is columbus , the new leader of ground breaking science laws on wrx , lol ... yeah these guys studying , measuring stuff for 20 plus years are chumps

why don't you tell us why these chumps are all wrong or is it gonna be another straw-man argument where columbus and followers being experts on TGM, TPI and laws of science set up a misrepresentation of their work and think you debunk them ........ except the only thing you do is debunk a misrepresentation and clap yourselves on the back.... fallacious stuff imop

i didn't see these guys making any reference to Hogan, just to how things work in regard to ground forces , center mass, pressure , linear and rotational stuff
[/quote]

[williambenjamin11]

Now going back to merits, I believe those guys are correct. The rebounding or bouncing that happens upon reaching the biolimit of bs will not cause you to rotate the hips as Hogan said clearly in 5 Lessons. It will cause you to make a lateral move. This lateral move will of course pull the hips also bec you are also moving the upper body and arms targetwards, thus making the hips appear to be rotating. But this is artificial. In effect, you rotated the hips by or via or thru the rotation of the upper body and sliding of body laterally. Now that's not what Hogan said and did. He just rotated the hips, which is intentional and not automatic. It is this rotation of hips that causes or MOVES THE BODY TO THE LEFT AND TRANSFERS WEIGHT FROM RIGHT FOOT TO LEFT FOOT as Hogan said. The rotation of hips is I guess horizontal forces alright, but not via that automatic rebounding of reaching bs biolimit. If you just rebound, you'll just laterally move first and rotate hips second. Now that's opposite of what Hogan said.

Maybe Dariusz you can post a step by step mechanical procedure of what you belive a swing should happen and we can all discuss its merits constructively (not destructively, heck we don't know who among us are right anyway, maybe all of us are wrong and the correct one is still to be discovered!) errr, pardon me.. Its already discovered by Hogan...

[williambenjamin11]

On to merits again re the putting pressure/weight on rear leg on bs while keeping the center of mass ahead of rear leg, that's possible Dariusz. On takeaway/bs, since you are rotating the body, pressure immediately shifts to right. However, since Hogan maintains the angle in right leg completely, there is no swaying or sliding or lateral move of hips to right. Hence, com also don't move right. In fact, it moves to left in the form of that counterfall lateral move of Hogan. Why does Hogan have to do these? Well, he has to maintain pressure on rear foot to accomodate the pivot in bs, AND at the same time in order to align the left hip on left ankle. Why again? So that he can turn or rotate his hips correctly and fastest at start of ds. So I think yes, its a combination of horizontal and vertical forces--vertical force on right foot at takeaway/bs, sort of horizontal force on that fall off move but this is actually to me just like letting your hips fall targetwards, then rotation of hips which to me is neither horizontal nor vertical but a circular move which however results to horizontal move ("moves body to left") and vertical move ("transfers weight from right foot to left foot").

What do you think Dariusz? Eightiron? Supercharger? I'm all ears, not sensitive at all to criticism and different opinions...

[eightiron]

[quote name='supercharger' timestamp='1294807567' post='2890444']
No new science laws. Just old h*** sapien wired in balance to perform work laws. These guys studying for 50 plus years are not chumps, they are people trying to seek answers. The sad thing is money and prestige all influence a persons ability to think for themselves. which is why we have not gained any ground in the last 50 plus years. I agree the guy in the video did not make reference to Hogan. He is studying science of the human body in a straight line left brain mechanical robotic fashion. You posted the link trying to prove DaruisJ wrong. You are out of your league in how the body works to even attempt to dismiss DariusJ's worldwide public theory that is step by step written and shown in pictures. You will not even post a swing of your own or putt your swing theory in words here on wrx. [quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1294803671' post='2890309']
so therefore who is columbus , the new leader of ground breaking science laws on wrx , lol ... yeah these guys studying , measuring stuff for 20 plus years are chumps

why don't you tell us why these chumps are all wrong or is it gonna be another straw-man argument where columbus and followers being experts on TGM, TPI and laws of science set up a misrepresentation of their work and think you debunk them ........ except the only thing you do is debunk a misrepresentation and clap yourselves on the back.... fallacious stuff imop

i didn't see these guys making any reference to Hogan, just to how things work in regard to ground forces , center mass, pressure , linear and rotational stuff
[/quote]
[/quote]

Out of my league in regards to what? What theory did i dismiss , or yes I forgot the shoulder 45 deg nonsense in the other thread , I remember you are a fanboy of that total fantasy even though measurements show its way way out of the ballpark , heck even the tilted shoulder boys admit Hogan had a flat backstroke right shoulder , eyesight tests are free!! What's my swing got to do with what the science / biomechanics experts say, anyway if you saw it , it would just upset you even more !! What swing theory of mine could ever possibly be better or more precise than Hogan's own writings on it.

Simply put the real science was produced ( unless these guys are wrong ) and you managed to dismiss them , TPI and you threw in Tgm as well . So it really seems to me that you basically
1/ are more of an expert in these areas then them or
2/ you don't like anyone producing any relevant scientific or expert opinions
3/ I should just not post or if I do just agree with someone with no real golf ability or biomedical expertise. But then how could I ,since then I would be conforming to your world and then I would be doing exactly what you accuse the biomedical experts are doing ....( not that they, in reality are).... how ironic

but since you believe its correct science , why not show the moves or darius j show us the Hogan swing......... gee if is right i will be out there tomorrow working on it

[williambenjamin11]

I totally agree with Eightiron. This is Hogan forum, so why don't we interpret everything using Hogan's book and swing? I think if some theory is clearly against what Hogan said and did, that's not correct. Just my way of doing Hogan. Why can't we listen to Hogan and figure him out. If we can't figure him out, keep digging or thinking, but don't offer theories that are clearly against what he said and did. If it is, that's not Hogan!

[JOEGOLFWRX]

super your twisting what science is.

[url="http://motherboard.tv/2011/1/7/bad-science--2"]watch at least the first half of this vid[/url] (all it if you want some deep thinking on bad ramifications of bad science).

either way ...[i][b]"science is based on p1ssing on other peoples ideas"[/b][/i], ...its health depends on it.

he used that turn of phrase because when discussing an idea becomes viewed only as attacking a person who believes in it, then any science present is at best stagnating and the future direction of the idea will be steered more by social pressure rather than scientific merit.

its very common to think science is about coming up with hypothesis, but the majority of science is about poking holes in them.

[williambenjamin11]

I think I grasped it. But the way you xplain it there in your blog is not as clear as I prefer, but I think I got it though. I just don't think its Hogan, wrote or did. Are you saying Hogan only said what he felt, and what he felt is different from what he actually did? Due respect to you Dariusz, but I don't think Hogan is that naïve as to write only what he felt. I think he knows what he felt and did, and the difference between them. I think he is intelligent enough to realize that.
Heck he even pictured himself, and hired Ravielli to illustrate him, his hands, body, etc...

Anyway, let's remove all the hostility and sensitivity here, if any, and continue these amazing discourse of ideas. Let me ask, what are those things that are different or contrasting between what Hogan wrote and did? Please, I really don't know.

[TeeAce]

I think Hogan went to the left just to get possible to come back from there. I can't find any reason for lateral movements in dsw. All parts of the left side should move away from the target and nothing towards it. Sure You have to get support from the ground to create counter forces to resist all mass that is mowing toward the target but as it seems to me, that't the only reason.

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1294834616' post='2890847']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1294803671' post='2890309']i didn't see these guys making any reference to Hogan, just to how things work in regard to ground forces , center mass, pressure , linear and rotational stuff
[/quote]

That's the point. As I suggested before and Supercharger wisely explained in better English, the Zenolink guy was not even thinking about Hogan's swing principles, nor automating movements. That's why he did not attempt to describe proper ground forces impact adequately to post-secret Hogan's action. Not coincidentally, I believe that this swing principles were quite unique and cannot be described as any other average swing motion that this guy
[/quote]


Wisely explained?

No, in simple English this guy explained the science of these terms, real science not some weetbix cereal box science, although sometimes thats good, with the fruit fillings... Everyones golf swing is unique

[williambenjamin11]

Dariusz and SC, what are the differnces in what Hogan said and did?

Eightiron, I think you believe there's none. But not even one as Dariusz and SC were saying?

[hoolio99]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1294755017' post='2888680']
[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1294752503' post='2888640']
Thank you very much for the Zenolink video. Since I guess it was aimed at destroying my concepts I found it funny that the guy just supports some of them Too bad that the guy did not explain his version why the diagonal stance is optimal for a golfer, however, what he shows is indeed very similar to the concept I invented and prescribe.
As regards the impact of the ground forces - well...I agree in general what he says, however, I cannot agree that he totally omits the horizontal forces of the rear side. He talks about mass center being outside the base and, therefore, causing linear actions (good) but never specified how it is possible that one can transfer the pressure onto the rear foot and leave the CoM in front of it ! And, of course, this is possible only thanks to shear/horizontal forces. Imagine now that you create the scenario to enlarge the impact of those horizontal forces creating torques in ankle/knee joints that helps to make the counterfall as early (!) and as powerfully (!) as possible. This is the horizontal forces aspect I talk about forever and this is the importance of an aspect he probably is not aware of.
Pushing off the ground he mentions all the time can be 100% vertical, or aimed at an angle (it is not possible that it is 100% horizontal whenboth feet are on the ground and not, e.g. rear foot on the wall perpendicular to the target). If we want the linear action occur targetwise the percentage of horizontally oriented forces must be huge, otherwise we would just jump up.

Cheers
[/quote]


Honestly , its just a presentation of facts from an expert in the field of bio-mechanics. Surely kidding yourself, he is basically the complete opposite of what you state , in regard to how counter-fall / cog / linear shift happen , ground forces , he is basically stating stepping on to the right foot and then back to the left foot with counter-fall as in the baseball swing and a golf swing is condensed version of that, I don't think he agrees with the center of pressure being moved towards the back foot via shear forces nor does he seem to say anything about shear / horizontal forces creating torques in joints to make a counter-fall happen, nor horizontal forces being responsible for linear shift , something to do with rotation from what I read and watched. Total opposite of your science in most aspects

Best he go back to school then , I wanna refund



[/quote]



8,

If you make a BS with equal weight on both feet as he describes (COP & COM between the feet) and no shear forces in the rear side, when you take the club back the right hip will sway away from the target, will it not? This doesn't sound like Hogan to me based on the footage I have seen. I'd like to see this guy actually make a backswing and then do the drills he was demonstrating in the clip, that would tell a lot.


Good discussion going here...

hoolio

[williambenjamin11]

No disrespect to any of you, but your exchanges are pure entertainment! Of course, there's learning as well... can't believe how sensitive the two are... And can't imagine how one is laughing his lungs out... Were there old flames between you guys long before?..

[JOEGOLFWRX]

he looks like he is doing core drills, ie training muscles that are generally unconsciously reacting to balance.
core theory + kinetic chain theory -> his drills -> more efficient power

[supercharger]

Eight, let's put my cereal box science to the test. You tell us why and how Hogan went lateral towards the target with his hips and started rotation with them. I will then do the same and the wrx's can decide which holds water.

[williambenjamin11]

I think eight already explained that above. This is my 2 cents though SC:

Hogan went lateral by merely turning his body on takeaway/bs AND maintaining angle on his right leg. Pressure will be transferred on right foot, relieving pressure on left foot. That will actually naturally cause you to fall off targetwards if you don't mind the left foot as Hogan said and don't intentionally put or maintain weight there. That's the lateral move. Then, at end of bs, when left hip is already aligned or on top of left ankle, to start or inaugurate or initiate the ds, you just turn/rotate your hips as hard as you like as what Hogan said and did. The rotation of hips will move the body to the left (yes, lateral again/further) and transfer weight from right foot to left foot as what Hogan said and did. Then you hit with the shoulders, arms and hands as hard as you like as Hogan did and said. You will surely hit inside out, so surely no ott or casting, and you'll be the captive of your own swing as what Hogan did and said.

SC what do you think?

[williambenjamin11]

Wish the other Hogan experts can chime in and confirm or refute the ideas here, especially mine.

[TML]

[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1294838979' post='2890936']
No disrespect to any of you, but your exchanges are pure entertainment! Of course, there's learning as well... can't believe how sensitive the two are... And can't imagine how one is laughing his lungs out... Were there old flames between you guys long before?..
[/quote]
same here ^.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say if Hogan had this much science in his brain while playing golf, then he would have gone insane. I just know when I'm having a great round and hitting it pure, I have one bs key and the downswing just happens. No thoughts of, get enough lateral motion forward, turn the hips, transfer weight to the left foot, left heel down, etc. I must be gifted.

[moehogan]

Mr. Hogan used BLENDED linear and rotational moves on the DS, as he described in Five Lessons:

[i]"THE[/i] [i]CONTRACTED MUSCLES ALONG THE INSIDE OF THE LEFT HIP AND THE MUSCLES ALONG THE INSIDE OF THE LEFT THIGH START TO SPIN THE LEFT HIP [size="3"][b]AROUND[/b] [/size]TO THE LEFT. [b][size="3"]AT ONE AND THE SAME TIME[/size][/b], THE MUSCLES OF THE RIGHT HIP AND THE MUSCLES OF THE RIGHT THIGH -- BOTH THE INSIDE AND THE POWERFUL OUTSIDE MUSCLES -- START TO MOVE THE RIGHT HIP [b][size="3"]FORWARD[/size][/b]."
.... [/i]Five Lessons, pp 90-91

He does NOT say that one move is the RESULT of the other, but rather indicates that these are two distinct movements that happen in tandem with each other. I take Mr. Hogan at his word(s) ... all of them!

MH

[williambenjamin11]

MH, at end of bs, hips are turned clockwise, so right hip is somewhat behind you and left hip somewhat in front of you. Now to rotate the left hip you woukd move it around (so that's rotation), and right hip you will move it forward or in front of you towards the targetline and toards target since its coming from behind you like a propeller. In my mind, I believe those words of Hogan you quoted all the more supports that you just rotate the hips. Then that rotation of hips will automatically move the body targetwards and transfer weight from right foot to left foot.

[williambenjamin11]

Further, if Hogan's intention is to just move laterally the hips (not rotate it circular-wise), he would not have mentioned the inside muscles of the right thigh.

[chris_golf]

Good point Dariusz, the practical use of this forum... where is it, if we only discuss and don´t put it in work. <object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/tMayZgzDeRY?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0"><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/tMayZgzDeRY?fs=1&hl=de_DE&rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></object> This is my interpretation what Mr. Hogan meant... Interesting that my lower spine works in the backswing toward the target and in the downswing away from the target - but in the view from face on you would see a lot of lateral motion, because the bellybutton is some inches away from my spine.... I never rotated conciously my hips in the downswing or start with a lateral motion, I can say that my hipmotion is a reaction to my backswing hip- motion. To have more open hips I would need to delay my arms more - but this is another work in progress. I find my pelvis area motion looks a little like Mr. Hogans... maybe I am totally off... Charlie Wi has as well a good pelvis motion, but to hit high Draws he thrust his hips a lot in the downswing...Chris

[williambenjamin11]

"Hogan's intention was rotating but he was aware that the linear shift is indispensaple and, therefore, wanted not to deal with it consciously but to automate this motion."

Dariusz, we agree on this. And I'm not sure if you understand my theories. I'm not saying there will be no lateral. In fact there is both in bs and ds. However, in BS, its somewhat intentional but also can be said to be natural or automatic if you put pressure on right foot, maintain the angle in right leg, forget putting or maintaining weight in left foot and allow the fall-off resulting to lateral move. So there's lateral in BS. At end of BS, left hip is aligned or on top of or stacked over left ankle.

Then, at transition/DS, you just rotate the hips as fast as you can as Hogan said in 5 Lessons and as he said to Clampet (see Clampet's book Impact Zone). However, that rotation of hips (your active or conscious or intentional move) WILL result to and move the body to left or laterally targetwards as Hogan said, and also it will transfer weight from right to left foot as Hogan said. So there's lateral also at DS, but now its unintentional or automatic. But your "move" or what you are trying to do to start DS (transition) is just the rotationof hips.

Now this is different from what you are saying as to the cause of lateral during DS. Mine is the rotaion of hips, yours is a rebounding caused by reaching the biolimit of BS in rear side and not caused by hip rotation at start of DS which is, again, what Hogan said. Am I understanding you correctly? Now mine is what Hogan said.

In other words, we are both correct in saying that the lateral on DS is automatic and unintentional, but we are different in saying the cause or source of that lateral move in ds.

[williambenjamin11]

Further Dariusz, maybe the reason you need the automatic lateral off the rebound from reaching biolimit of rear side in BS is because your left hip and ankle are not yet aligned or on top of each other. So at end of bs, rotating your hips will indeed be a disaster. So, you need the rebound and lateral to align your left hip and ankle, then now you can rotate the hips, but its too late bec you're already arriving into impact and your shoulders and arms are already ahead. That's why the left hip and lleft ankle alignment is very important, to me (and as slicefixer said) it is indispensable.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1294838522' post='2890920']
Dariusz and SC, what are the differnces in what Hogan said and did?

Eightiron, I think you believe there's none. But not even one as Dariusz and SC were saying?
[/quote]


One thing he said to do was keep your arms as close together as possible at address (famous picture of arms in a cacoon or roped up thing) but he doesn't do this at all in his real swing.

Another thing was he left out key info in when to move laterally back to the left before the hip turn. Everyone usually does it by bumping then turning. So while he didn't do it quite differently than what he wrote, he messed up a lot of people (not really his fault entirely) into turning back, stopping, then bumping left hip and THEN turning.

[williambenjamin11]

If you would look at the Amazing Grace video, he is keeping his elbows close. From what I've read, Hogan has calcium deposits or whatever and injuries that prevents him from keeping the elbows. But see that video with Amazing Grace music background.

Agree he didn't tell us when to move laterally. But in his swings its quite obvious. Plus, the maintaning of angle of right leg during bs and not thinking about the left heel lift during bs (which means no pressure on left foot during bs) (which both were mentioned by Hogan) would automatically cause the lateral fall off move during bs.

[williambenjamin11]

Hey, maybe that's the secret!

[moehogan]

Further Dariusz, maybe the reason you need the automatic lateral off the rebound from reaching biolimit of rear side in BS is because your left hip and ankle are not yet aligned or on top of each other. So at end of bs, rotating your hips will indeed be a disaster. So, you need the rebound and lateral to align your left hip and ankle, then now you can rotate the hips, but its too late bec you're already arriving into impact and your shoulders and arms are already ahead. That's why the left hip and lleft ankle alignment is very important, to me (and as slicefixer said) it is indispensable.

Mr. Hogan's left hip, knee, ankle rarely ever lined up at P4 (top) on a full swing, thus requiring lateral movement in his DS. He achieved those alignments consistently around P5 in the DOWNSWING ... noted this on almost every one of his full shots that I have had the privelege to view. That's why he specified an "AND" condition with rotational and lateral motion in Five Lessons ... not an "IF/THEN" condition. Mr. H's logic was crystal clear ... we're just going in circles here.

 

Ganhdi,

 

MH

 

[williambenjamin11]

Yes, we are. But aint that ideal for learning, not to mention the readers, not to mention the mental calisthenics involved?

Anyway, going back to topic, I agree with the existence of BOTH rotational AND lateral in ds. What I've been mumbling about is the HOW. What caused the lateral move in DS? My opinion is that it was caused by just rotating your hips the proper way. And that proper way is the way wherein there's an automatic lateral move.

As to the alignment, the alignment tilts back towards the rear as the club gets longer. So, in wedge, the alignment of left shoulder, hip and ankle is vertical, then tilts to rearward as club gets longer. But the alignment is still straight. The tilt is necessary for longer clubs bec of the length of the swing. What's important is they are aligned or in straight line bec that's the best anatomical position that will allow the hip rotation that will cause the lateral move. If its not aligned, the hips will just rotate without resulting to a lateral move because there will be a muscle that will block the hip thrust. I believe thisis also the anatomical reason for s&t's hip thrust maneuver before impact--to avoid the stalling of hip turn and thus body turn/swing. Try it, you will feel a certain muscle or ligament or whatever that will somewhat "click" or "block" the muscle movemnt (sorry for lack of proper description, maybe the anatomy experts can chime in). Then align them, and you will feel the turn is free-ier and you can easily move lateral as a consequence.