"THERE MUST BE ENOUGH LATERAL MOTION FORWARD TO TRANSFER THE WEIGHT TO THE LEFT FOOT"

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1296445583' post='2938917']
Dariusz, good to know you'll be posting again. Why do you think turning the hips first in ds is a disaster as you posted much earlier? Can you explain further?
[/quote]

Again, I never said I won't be posting - I just decided to participate only in discussions concerning my researches.

Cheers

[williambenjamin11]

Yes, based on your researches, why is turning/rotating hips first in ds (which I note results to both circular and lateral motion) be a disaster?

[JOEGOLFWRX]

good i thought you said you were only going to discuss your theory with people who didn't understand it [b]AND[/b] yet believed in it, which is precisely what you slag everyone else off for.

communication breakdown.

so,

based on your research (and your orientation, the target line being east->west and hogan facing north) you have found

(1) hogans rear foot was perpendicular to the target line with a progressively closed stance, so a pigeon-toed (like ian poulter) rear foot, which is progressively pigeon toed by an amount directly proportional to the amount of stance line closure, eg square/perpendicular for short iron, 15 degree pigeon toed for driver.

(2) hogan counter fell in a south-west direction, while maintaining his tush line 'on the wall' or some times 'deepening his tush line', tush line going more south, falling through the wall.

if his weight is going south-west and his tush line is going south and his lead foot is going forward how does he not fall over.

have you any video showing either points (1) or (2). all videos i have seen of hogan show the opposite of your hypothesis. that is

(1) hogans rear foot was open to his stance line which depending on the time of his career and the shot he was making and the lie of the ground would vary, but generally as a baseline for most of his career followed what hogan himself prescribed in his 5 lessons, ie, slightly open stance for short irons to progressively closed stance for the driver.

ken venturi, who was in hogans inner circle and a deep trusted friend of hogan who often practiced with him said, hogans rear foot was 'never' square, 'always' open 10 degrees.

if ken is not imagining things, then when hogan went deep (toward the rear heal), would the setting of the rear foot open not be a bio-kinetic big picture ideal for a counterfall more north than south as you have hypothesized.

(2) hogan either maintained his tush line or came off the wall, falling forward, to recatch/recreate a second wall more north, which he then maintained. which caused his lead foot to move towards the ball, as i showed in the animated gifs earlier.

this is in accordance with Chris Welsh's findings a leading biomedical engineer with access to all the necessary equipment who researches elite golfers.

and also Dr Paul Hurrion another elite biomedical engineer findings that to optimize both efficiency and accuracy one should maximize ones Longitudinal Stability Index (LSI) – ie the longer a player’s center of gravity can continue towards the target, the more energy is directed there.

and also is demonstrated in most elite golf swings of any era.

and also a specific prescribed component of many proven methods/patterns at the elite level.

would 'escaping' south-west not create an inefficient LSI, which while it may rule out the lefts by hiding behind the left post, ultimately not sap power transferred on to the ball in a consistent manner.

imo the loss of some of the power could be minimized if you had a wobbly LSI by creating an 'odd looking' stance/set-up, but this is just [b]pure speculation[/b] as i am not an elite trained and experienced bio-mechanist/engineer.

[Dariusz J.]

If you really are interested in my theories (which I seriously doubt) I'd suggest you both to learn a bit more about them and not put things into my mouth instead. All I believe in after hours of tiring researches is written and shown in at least 3 places in the net. If you want to discuss things with me quote me, please. I am not going to be enframed in another argument, as I said.

Cheers

[williambenjamin11]

Dariusz, you didn't explain in your blogs/posts why just turning of hips first in ds (conscious/intention) that results to BOTH linear and rotational actions will be a disaster. You just said in your blogs/posts that in ds, that the linear motion should precede the rotational one due to the bipedals. So why? If possible please explain in practical terms/manner.

As to me, doing JUST/ONLY a linear motion in ds is not enough to make the hips/lower body get ahead (or get ahead ENOUGH) of the upper body. And you know the negative consequences if the upper body gets ahead of lower body.

Please post a link if I missed something in your blogs/posts.

Sincerely.

[williambenjamin11]

Dariusz, you didn't explain in your blogs/posts why just turning of hips first in ds (conscious/intention) that results to BOTH linear and rotational actions will be a disaster. You just said in your blogs/posts that in ds, that the linear motion should precede the rotational one due to the bipedals. So why? If possible please explain in practical terms/manner.

As to me, doing JUST/ONLY a linear motion in ds is not enough to make the hips/lower body get ahead (or get ahead ENOUGH) of the upper body. And you know the negative consequences if the upper body gets ahead of lower body.

Please post a link if I missed something in your blogs/posts.

Sincerely.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

If you really are interested in my theories (which I seriously doubt) I'd suggest you both to learn a bit more about them and not put things into my mouth instead. All I believe in after hours of tiring researches is written and shown in at least 3 places in the net. If you want to discuss things with me quote me, please. I am not going to be enframed in another argument, as I said.

 

Cheers

 

its more than 3 places and each one is a community forum, this sub-forum specifically related to ben hogan. if you are going to post about your theories on multiple public message boards please answer the questions put to you.

 

do you even read these awkward questions ?

 

and this passive/aggressive victimization routine is tiring, i have no interest in arguments either, and i have taken the time to read your hypothesis with regards to hogan as i have many others, so do me the courtesy of answering my simple questions.

 

starting at point (1) quoted as you requested from your blog

 

Watch Mr.Hogan sets his feet in search for a ground forces and totally balanced motion with the lead foot always flared out and the rear one perpendicular to the target:

 

this makes the foot perpendicular to the target

 

Observe how Mr.Hogan seeks for a stable stance that would guarantee the most effective usage of the ground forces. A closed toe line, open hips and square shoulders (in relation to each other), a flared lead while a squared rear foot plus different pressure points for both feet - these are the real keys.

 

image constructed by you from your blog

 

 

 

 

 

so ill ask again

 

have you any video showing point (1) ?

 

all videos i have seen of hogan show the opposite of your hypothesis. that is

 

(1) hogans rear foot was open to his stance line which depending on the time of his career and the shot he was making and the lie of the ground would vary, but generally as a baseline for most of his career followed what hogan himself prescribed in his 5 lessons, ie, slightly open stance for short irons to progressively closed stance for the driver.

 

ken venturi, who was in hogans inner circle and a deep trusted friend of hogan who often practiced with him said, hogans rear foot was 'never' square, 'always' open 10 degrees.

 

if ken is not imagining things, then when hogan went deep (toward the rear heal), would the setting of the rear foot open not be a bio-kinetic big picture ideal for a counterfall more north than south as you have hypothesized ?

 

 

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

the ball in the above image went directly up the page as good as 90 degrees north on the image, the video shows minimum parallax effect, the rear foot is clearly open to the target line.

[williambenjamin11]

Joe, whats your belief on what the principal/main thought/conscious action to start the DS.

I think everybody should look at Hogan's videos real time. Youll easily notice that its his hips that fires first to start the ds. If you exactly copy Hogan's bs, and then just turn with your shoulders (never mind first an intentional hip turn at this time), youll always hit it left, but solid. Just add the hip first, making it way ahead of the upper body, and youll magically hit it straight to fade/right. And damn, almost no teacher will teach this to a beginning/student golfer, you know why? Because the teacher will look like a moron teaching the student how to hit it solidly left! And he cant teach the hip turn first because a prerequisite of this is a truly correct/Hoganlike bs. I think thats the dilemma. Only playing pros and recreational golfers/amateurs who starts to hit the lefts that this hip turn firs AHEAD of the upper body will be taught by a pro.

Im beginning to believe theres no secret. Hogan told us all. The problem is just how to use them ALL. No, the problem is its either you use them ALL, or youll be a golfing disaster. Just miss one and youre dead. Heck ive been suffering for couple of years until i figured this out!

So i suggest to beginners out there to exactly mimic Hogan's bs (and ds as well but without the hip turn, just shoulder/upper body/arm turn), dont worry about hitting it left (better if nobody's looking as youll look like a fool smiling/contented hitting it lefts; remember, this is the history of Hogan's swing, lefts for so long a time, then suddenly the lefts gone, completely...), you should worry about hitting it solid. Now, when youre comfortable enough, start firing the hips FIRST to BEGIN the ds. Youll hit it magically like Hogan (relatively, of course), and the lefts will start straightening out. it will just be a matter of adjusting the hip turn, just as Hogan said to Jody Vasquez (Jody told us its the right knee though...). And when i say start with the hips, thats all you think about, but make sure theres is a resulting actual moving of body to left and transferring of wieght from right foot to left foot. Posting this just to help anyone. Got nothing to lose.

Does anyone out there teach this? Just one? PM please if you prefer not to post publicly.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

WBJ11, this is all just my opinion but:-

i think there are two separate things often treated as one around hogan discussions.
1) being 5L, what hogan identified as common to all great swings, fundamentals which are allowed minor tweaks, with a basic theme of chain-action.
2) what hogan did himself, his patterns being a subset of a larger group of patterns found in group 1 and not fully documented in the book.

imo the book is a guide, in that even a great swing inspired by the book could find a solid direction for further improvement within it.

its not all prescription, there is a lot of chit-chat anecdotes in it, it is over quoted or often quoted out of context.

part of that guide is the hips being the dominant motor.

the lateral is only touched on, and you could say it abridges two separate sections. so a huge spectrum recognized for its sequential position only, which subtly opens up the size of group 1 and the scope of hogans observations about 'greatness' fundamentals.

imo hogan had a greater understanding of transition than anyone who ever played the game.

i think he understood a lot of swings that he didn't like.

a lot of smart people, and elite athletes, and smart elite athletes have studied hogan, and developed different backswings, so when you say "If you exactly copy Hogan's bs" i think it's important to make the distinction between his prescription from the book and his actual BS.

imo hogans own patterns are based on a complex to decipher yet easy to remember set of visualizations, that allowed him to measure out for and transition correctly through whatever shot he wanted.

possibly using what dariusz would call 'soft tissue' and martin calls 'intentions'. visualizations to mostly measure out soft tissue intentions to manage the sequence of transition for all shots at all speeds with all clubs.

[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1296632306' post='2945148']
Joe, whats your belief on what the principal/main thought/conscious action to start the DS.
[/quote]

so having said all that, lol,
personally - blended,
generally - lateral then rotation.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1296632306' post='2945148']
Joe, whats your belief on what the principal/main thought/conscious action to start the DS.

I think everybody should look at Hogan's videos real time. Youll easily notice that its his hips that fires first to start the ds. If you exactly copy Hogan's bs, and then just turn with your shoulders (never mind first an intentional hip turn at this time), youll always hit it left, but solid. Just add the hip first, making it way ahead of the upper body, and youll magically hit it straight to fade/right. And damn, almost no teacher will teach this to a beginning/student golfer, you know why? Because the teacher will look like a moron teaching the student how to hit it solidly left! And he cant teach the hip turn first because a prerequisite of this is a truly correct/Hoganlike bs. I think thats the dilemma. Only playing pros and recreational golfers/amateurs who starts to hit the lefts that this hip turn firs AHEAD of the upper body will be taught by a pro.

Im beginning to believe theres no secret. Hogan told us all. The problem is just how to use them ALL. No, the problem is its either you use them ALL, or youll be a golfing disaster. Just miss one and youre dead. Heck ive been suffering for couple of years until i figured this out!

So i suggest to beginners out there to exactly mimic Hogan's bs (and ds as well but without the hip turn, just shoulder/upper body/arm turn), dont worry about hitting it left (better if nobody's looking as youll look like a fool smiling/contented hitting it lefts; remember, this is the history of Hogan's swing, lefts for so long a time, then suddenly the lefts gone, completely...), you should worry about hitting it solid. Now, when youre comfortable enough, start firing the hips FIRST to BEGIN the ds. Youll hit it magically like Hogan (relatively, of course), and the lefts will start straightening out. it will just be a matter of adjusting the hip turn, just as Hogan said to Jody Vasquez (Jody told us its the right knee though...). And when i say start with the hips, thats all you think about, but make sure theres is a resulting actual moving of body to left and transferring of wieght from right foot to left foot. Posting this just to help anyone. Got nothing to lose.

Does anyone out there teach this? Just one? PM please if you prefer not to post publicly.
[/quote]

I do. But still it's not possible that turning hips first affects that way, because club is only following the hands and hands are quite well following the shoulders. In some way shoulders are also following the hips if You can't separate those from each other. So the answer is delaying all upper parts and be able to create as much tension between all parts in rotation (hips, shoulders, hands and arms and finally the club head)

Thats why You really have to understand those joint moves according each others and muscular action behind that.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1296607158' post='2944178']
Dariusz, you didn't explain in your blogs/posts why just turning of hips first in ds (conscious/intention) that results to BOTH linear and rotational actions will be a disaster. You just said in your blogs/posts that in ds, that the linear motion should precede the rotational one due to the bipedals. So why? If possible please explain in practical terms/manner.As to me, doing JUST/ONLY a linear motion in ds is not enough to make the hips/lower body get ahead (or get ahead ENOUGH) of the upper body. And you know the negative consequences if the upper body gets ahead of lower body.Please post a link if I missed something in your blogs/posts.Sincerely.
[/quote]

Here is the link that you missed:

http://biokineticgolfswing.blogspot.com/2010/04/sagittal-plane-compression-concept-part_15.html

Start reading with the following sentences, please: "OK, as it has been already discussed when talking about the spine, the rear side adduction that happens as a natural consequence of a correctly performed backswing is also the crucial force in the pelvis area. Before the lead side leads the parade via its abduction the sagittal plane of the pelvis should be compressed. It won't be if we start the transition by lead hip pulling as it was drawn in '5 Lessons' (famous elastic tape image), we need to let the rear hip adduct.[...]"

You need to understand that I am looking to find a recipee for an automated motion, free of any possible conscious thoughts. Even the best thought is an activation of consciousness and it is an evil thing in my world that should be avoided.
You would need to understand what does it mean "from the ground up" and what are [b]natural and automatic[/b] benefits of creating torques in joints. Then you would need to try to imagine how it is possible to have a cascade of events (resulting from one another) instead a planned motion with conscious thoughts. If you are ready with this, we can go further.

Hope it helps, cheers.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1296612975' post='2944464']
its more than 3 places and each one is a community forum, this sub-forum specifically related to ben hogan. if you are going to post about your theories on multiple public message boards please answer the questions put to you.

do you even read these awkward questions ?

and this passive/aggressive victimization routine is tiring, i have no interest in arguments either, and i have taken the time to read your hypothesis with regards to hogan as i have many others, so do me the courtesy of answering my simple questions.

[/quote]

You may not paying attention to my posts, thus, you won't be tired with them.

As per your question - 1) my theories are not created to explain Hogan's action; they just use post-secret Hogan as an example closest to biokinetic ideal; 2) Hogan himself talked about setting his rear foot perpendicular to the target - "the right foot is at a right angle to the line of flight"; 3) flaring the rear foot out would make benefitting from joints torques more difficult, thus, there is no reason to use it, unless one wants to create more room for the backswing (as he might do as he grow older, especially after the accident).

Hope that helps, cheers

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1296667155' post='2945881']
You may not paying attention to my posts, thus, you won't be tired with them.
[/quote]

i have been paying attention to your posts, as i do from anyone who has looked long and hard at hogan.

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1296667155' post='2945881']
As per your question -

1) my theories are not created to explain Hogan's action; they just use post-secret Hogan as an example closest to biokinetic ideal;
[/quote]

i am aware of this, but explain him you do, quite specifically, as quoted above for brief examples

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1296667155' post='2945881']
2) Hogan himself talked about setting his rear foot perpendicular to the target - "the right foot is at a right angle to the line of flight";
[/quote]

he wrote this in 5 lessons, IMO a left over from his early tabloid teachings, but videos appear to consistently show his rear foot open as ken venturi very specifically attests to.

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1296667155' post='2945881']
3) flaring the rear foot out would make benefitting from joints torques more difficult, thus, there is no reason to use it, unless one wants to create more room for the backswing (as he might do as he grow older, especially after the accident).
[/quote]

ok you are making a number of points here

1) the obvious statement that rear foot flare effects overall range of rotational motion, no one would disagree with.
2) you are only explicit in a 'big picture' way about rear foot flares effect on backswing, omitting your opinion of its effect on other areas including 'big picture' counterfall.
3) as you flare the rear foot past parallel to the target line it becomes less 'bio-kinetically ideal'
4) as you age you might compromise 'bio-kenetic idealism' due to range of motion issues

here is my trouble with that answer, apart from its not the question i asked, lol, -

1) hogan had big range of motion,
and
2)as you have mentioned above and in numerous other posts hogan IYO post-secret became most 'bio-kinetically ideal'.

so why is he most pigeon-toed pre-secret with irons?

[attachment=723115:powergolfiron.jpg]

and why did his rear foot flare basic base line not change from the beginning of the post-secret pre-accident period to when he was hitting balls in to the ocean post-secret post-accident post-post-competitive days, as his swing shortened ?

[attachment=723116:oldnewflare1.jpg]

unless you have a positive answer to my original question ?

1) have you any video showing point (1) ? (rear foot always perpendicular to target)

[s]2) if ken is not imagining things, then when hogan went deep (toward the rear heal), would the setting of the rear foot open not be a bio-kinetic big picture ideal for a counterfall more north than south as you have hypothesized ? [/s]

lets simplify question (2) to its most basic 'big picture' preposition

2) is it correct that IYO the more you flare the rear foot the more north you countefall all other things unchanged ?

we are down to 2 yes/no answers, lol.


this is your diagonal stance 'bio-kinetic ideal'

[attachment=723119:DiagonalStanceDiagramme.JPG]

this is how hogan applied it
red - target line and target line parallel
white - should be closed to the red line for a driver
yellow - should be parallel to the 2 red lines
rear foot should be withdrawn back by approximately the length of hogans foot.

[attachment=723118:shellfootflaredagonalstance.jpg]

[williambenjamin11]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1296666436' post='2945853']
[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1296607158' post='2944178']
Dariusz, you didn't explain in your blogs/posts why just turning of hips first in ds (conscious/intention) that results to BOTH linear and rotational actions will be a disaster. You just said in your blogs/posts that in ds, that the linear motion should precede the rotational one due to the bipedals. So why? If possible please explain in practical terms/manner.As to me, doing JUST/ONLY a linear motion in ds is not enough to make the hips/lower body get ahead (or get ahead ENOUGH) of the upper body. And you know the negative consequences if the upper body gets ahead of lower body.Please post a link if I missed something in your blogs/posts.Sincerely.
[/quote]

Here is the link that you missed:

http://biokineticgolfswing.blogspot.com/2010/04/sagittal-plane-compression-concept-part_15.html

Start reading with the following sentences, please: "OK, as it has been already discussed when talking about the spine, the rear side adduction that happens as a natural consequence of a correctly performed backswing is also the crucial force in the pelvis area. Before the lead side leads the parade via its abduction the sagittal plane of the pelvis should be compressed. It won't be if we start the transition by lead hip pulling as it was drawn in '5 Lessons' (famous elastic tape image), we need to let the rear hip adduct.[...]"

You need to understand that I am looking to find a recipee for an automated motion, free of any possible conscious thoughts. Even the best thought is an activation of consciousness and it is an evil thing in my world that should be avoided.
You would need to understand what does it mean "from the ground up" and what are [b]natural and automatic[/b] benefits of creating torques in joints. Then you would need to try to imagine how it is possible to have a cascade of events (resulting from one another) instead a planned motion with conscious thoughts. If you are ready with this, we can go further.

Hope it helps, cheers.
[/quote]


Dariusz, the right hip adduction during bs/transition together with the lead hip abduction actually results to linear motion, which you said is necessary. But I think upon accomplishing the rear hip adduction that automatically results to leinear hip motion targetwards, since you don't have to think about this linear motion bec its automatic anyway, I think should be added an intentional turning of hips. This makes sure that hips are ahead in the overall turn/swing, and not just going along with the linear motion, which to me is not putting the hips ahead or upper body/arms/hands behind but just neutral or at same time, which will still result to lefts.

Remember the supination andd bowing lecture of Hogan in 5Lessons? As it is, that will result to lefts, but hits are very solid right? If you add here the "timing" lesson, just make the hips turn AHEAD of the upper body/arms/hands, and the lefts will be gone, but hits still solid.

I think when you say rotate after the linear motion, you just mean rotate with the upper body right? And even if you mean rotate with hips, its too late. It should rotate consciously at the same time that your linear motion happens.

[williambenjamin11]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1296662128' post='2945656']
[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1296632306' post='2945148']
Joe, whats your belief on what the principal/main thought/conscious action to start the DS.

I think everybody should look at Hogan's videos real time. Youll easily notice that its his hips that fires first to start the ds. If you exactly copy Hogan's bs, and then just turn with your shoulders (never mind first an intentional hip turn at this time), youll always hit it left, but solid. Just add the hip first, making it way ahead of the upper body, and youll magically hit it straight to fade/right. And damn, almost no teacher will teach this to a beginning/student golfer, you know why? Because the teacher will look like a moron teaching the student how to hit it solidly left! And he cant teach the hip turn first because a prerequisite of this is a truly correct/Hoganlike bs. I think thats the dilemma. Only playing pros and recreational golfers/amateurs who starts to hit the lefts that this hip turn firs AHEAD of the upper body will be taught by a pro.

Im beginning to believe theres no secret. Hogan told us all. The problem is just how to use them ALL. No, the problem is its either you use them ALL, or youll be a golfing disaster. Just miss one and youre dead. Heck ive been suffering for couple of years until i figured this out!

So i suggest to beginners out there to exactly mimic Hogan's bs (and ds as well but without the hip turn, just shoulder/upper body/arm turn), dont worry about hitting it left (better if nobody's looking as youll look like a fool smiling/contented hitting it lefts; remember, this is the history of Hogan's swing, lefts for so long a time, then suddenly the lefts gone, completely...), you should worry about hitting it solid. Now, when youre comfortable enough, start firing the hips FIRST to BEGIN the ds. Youll hit it magically like Hogan (relatively, of course), and the lefts will start straightening out. it will just be a matter of adjusting the hip turn, just as Hogan said to Jody Vasquez (Jody told us its the right knee though...). And when i say start with the hips, thats all you think about, but make sure theres is a resulting actual moving of body to left and transferring of wieght from right foot to left foot. Posting this just to help anyone. Got nothing to lose.

Does anyone out there teach this? Just one? PM please if you prefer not to post publicly.
[/quote]

I do. But still it's not possible that turning hips first affects that way, because club is only following the hands and hands are quite well following the shoulders. In some way shoulders are also following the hips if You can't separate those from each other. So the answer is delaying all upper parts and be able to create as much tension between all parts in rotation (hips, shoulders, hands and arms and finally the club head)

Thats why You really have to understand those joint moves according each others and muscular action behind that.
[/quote]


Yes. Once you know /understand the "joint moves", all you've got to do is turn the hips. That's your only thought in downswing but in reality, golfers especially recreational/amateurs are just focused on theose "joint moves", they totally forget the hip turn. So they learn the correct joint moves, then hits em solid, but left, then they tweak the "joint moves" to straighten their balls, ending up wronging their "joint moves"n then wonders what the hell is wrong, so they relearn the "joint moves", then hit it solid again, then lefts, then relearn again.. Lol

Know what, that "timing" lesson which I previously said here was mentioned by Nicklaus, I was wrong, it wasn't Nicklaus as I reread his book. I thought about it, and it was this old playing pro, in his 60s, who still hits it straight and 250 yards, carry only. Wow. I think that's the secret of the pros. It was taught to him when he was young also by a playing pro, who also hits its straight and long and balls falling almost on top of each other. This older pro, even if he has hit balls almost on top of each other still shakes his head, to the disbelief of his son. So his son asked, what the hell are you shaking your head for father?! The father said, the ball flights are not exactly the same height! Damnit the son said, this time he's the one shaking his head in amazement.

Anyway, is there a book that teaches this turn of hips left in ds aside from 5Lessons?

[williambenjamin11]

Hey wrxers, if i found someone who can swing like Hoga, i mean not only the moves, but also the OVERALL LOOK of his swing is Hogan, is there a prize if i post his video here?

[williambenjamin11]

More HOGANLIKE than anybody on here, on tour, anybody youve seen... Guaranteed...

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1296700327' post='2947420']he wrote this in 5 lessons, IMO a left over from his early tabloid teachings, but videos appear to consistently show his rear foot open as ken venturi very specifically attests to.[/quote]

Well, he wrote what he wrote. If flaring the rear foot of even these 10% was of any conceptual importance, he would have both said it and showed it on the diagramme.

[quote]
1) have you any video showing point (1) ? (rear foot always perpendicular to target)

[s]2) if ken is not imagining things, then when hogan went deep (toward the rear heal), would the setting of the rear foot open not be a bio-kinetic big picture ideal for a counterfall more north than south as you have hypothesized ? [/s]

lets simplify question (2) to its most basic 'big picture' preposition

2) is it correct that IYO the more you flare the rear foot the more north you countefall all other things unchanged ?[/quote]

Your reasoning is flawed because you fail to see the big picture and concentrate on microscale details:

ad.1) even if Hogan always had in reality his rear foot flared out a bit in the majority of causes (because of his preferences) it does not change the facts that his intentions were to set it perpendicularily to the target and b) it does not matter in view of the answer for your question no.2 because the amount of flare after the rear ankle/knee joints preset is negligible - same as few per cent is negligible comparing to 25%.

ad.2) rotation causes shift - the linear motion, according to my studies, can be an automatic result of de-torquing the joints; torquing and detorquing are rotational motions of opposite direction - if the torquing is clockwise, the other is counterclockwise; while the counterclockwise rotation of the knee joint affects the femur bone it starts to move South-West because there is no other option left - which is the essence of automatism. If the rear foot is significantly flared out the impact of torquing and detorquing in the joints would be drastically limited (generally speaking, benefitting from horizontally oriented forces would be drastically limited) and as a result one would have more options where to direct the linear motion, even in the Nort-West direction you prefer. Therefore, yes, the simple answer to your question is that the chances that the direction of the linear shift is to the S-W also drastically diminish.


Now, I have a question to you. We know very well that body compresses in the transverse plane (squatting) that means the overall CoM lowers. How it would be possible to lower CoM and not losing tush line (or better said, increase tush line) when the linear shift of the pelvis area goes even slightly to North ?

Cheers

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1296703514' post='2947611']Dariusz, the right hip adduction during bs/transition together with the lead hip abduction actually results to linear motion, which you said is necessary. But I think upon accomplishing the rear hip adduction that automatically results to leinear hip motion targetwards, since you don't have to think about this linear motion bec its automatic anyway, I think should be added an intentional turning of hips. This makes sure that hips are ahead in the overall turn/swing, and not just going along with the linear motion, which to me is not putting the hips ahead or upper body/arms/hands behind but just neutral or at same time, which will still result to lefts.
[/quote]

I cannot agree to this statement. Biophysics tells me that if the linear motion ends the rotation must start unintentionally because inertia still exists and the motion could not just stop, it must continue. That's the trick - to automate the necessary linear shift that will consequently automate the rotation.
If we assume that the scenario is to mix linear and rotational elements - then, who knows, perhaps it would require conscious thought(s) to do it well.

[quote]
Remember the supination andd bowing lecture of Hogan in 5Lessons? As it is, that will result to lefts, but hits are very solid right? If you add here the "timing" lesson, just make the hips turn AHEAD of the upper body/arms/hands, and the lefts will be gone, but hits still solid.[/quote]

I never said it cannot be done. Moreover, I never said that great players usually may have needed conscious thoughts when shooting and they all are timing-dependent to a degree. I said I am trying to create a theory for weekend hackers who can play good golf without all this mumbo-jumbo they are fed during countless lessons and without spending countless hours on the range on repetitions. What I see is that the average HCP did not drop down from the 50-ies despite huge technological progress. What I also see is that greatest ballstrikers tried to limit the impact of timing to the degree they decide what to time. IMHO.


[quote]
I think when you say rotate after the linear motion, you just mean rotate with the upper body right? And even if you mean rotate with hips, its too late. It should rotate consciously at the same time that your linear motion happens.
[/quote]

No. The rotation starts from the ground up as well. Why do you think it is too late for the hips if we assume that the linear part happens before the upper body starts its transition ? You must think of a motion as a sequential motion.

Cheers

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1296739643' post='2948253']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1296700327' post='2947420']he wrote this in 5 lessons, IMO a left over from his early tabloid teachings, but videos appear to consistently show his rear foot open as ken venturi very specifically attests to.[/quote]

Well, he wrote what he wrote. If flaring the rear foot of even these 10% was of any conceptual importance, he would have both said it and showed it on the diagramme.

[quote]
1) have you any video showing point (1) ? (rear foot always perpendicular to target)

[s]2) if ken is not imagining things, then when hogan went deep (toward the rear heal), would the setting of the rear foot open not be a bio-kinetic big picture ideal for a counterfall more north than south as you have hypothesized ? [/s]

lets simplify question (2) to its most basic 'big picture' preposition

2) is it correct that IYO the more you flare the rear foot the more north you countefall all other things unchanged ?[/quote]

Your reasoning is flawed because you fail to see the big picture and concentrate on microscale details:


ad.1) even if Hogan always had in reality his rear foot flared out a bit in the majority of causes (because of his preferences) it does not change the facts that his intentions were to set it perpendicularily to the target and b) it does not matter in view of the answer for your question no.2 because the amount of flare after the rear ankle/knee joints preset is negligible - same as few per cent is negligiblecomparing to 25%.

ad.2) rotation causes shift - the linear motion, according to my studies, can be an automatic result of de-torquing the joints; torquing and detorquing are rotational motions of opposite direction - if the torquing is clockwise, the other is counterclockwise; while the counterclockwise rotation of the knee joint affects the femur bone it starts to move South-West because there is no other option left - which is the essence of automatism. If the rear foot is significantly flared out the impact of torquing and detorquing in the joints would be drastically limited (generally speaking, benefitting from horizontally oriented forces would be drastically limited) and as a result one would have more options where to direct the linear motion, even in the Nort-West direction you prefer. Therefore, yes, the simple answer to your question is that the chances that the direction of the linear shift is to the S-W also drastically diminish.


Now, I have a question to you. We know very well that body compresses in the transverse plane (squatting) that means the overall CoM lowers. How it would be possible to lower CoM and not losing tush line (or better said, increase tush line) when the linear shift of the pelvis area goes even slightly to North ?

Cheers
[/quote]

It seems that everything is a micro scale detail and reasonings are always flawed

Your last question shows a lack of understanding of body motion, considering hogans head movement points to what is happening, and already been discussed and you refused to answer the reasonings behind it.

Little snippet from a forum , you state Snead used more vertical forces than hogan , well how come he shifted out way more than hogan in transition?

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1296666436' post='2945853']
[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1296607158' post='2944178']
Dariusz, you didn't explain in your blogs/posts why just turning of hips first in ds (conscious/intention) that results to BOTH linear and rotational actions will be a disaster. You just said in your blogs/posts that in ds, that the linear motion should precede the rotational one due to the bipedals. So why? If possible please explain in practical terms/manner.As to me, doing JUST/ONLY a linear motion in ds is not enough to make the hips/lower body get ahead (or get ahead ENOUGH) of the upper body. And you know the negative consequences if the upper body gets ahead of lower body.Please post a link if I missed something in your blogs/posts.Sincerely.
[/quote]

Here is the link that you missed:

http://biokineticgolfswing.blogspot.com/2010/04/sagittal-plane-compression-concept-part_15.html

Start reading with the following sentences, please: "OK, as it has been already discussed when talking about the spine, the rear side adduction that happens as a natural consequence of a correctly performed backswing is also the crucial force in the pelvis area. Before the lead side leads the parade via its abduction the sagittal plane of the pelvis should be compressed. It won't be if we start the transition by lead hip pulling as it was drawn in '5 Lessons' (famous elastic tape image), we need to let the rear hip adduct.[...]"

You need to understand that I am looking to find a recipee for an automated motion, free of any possible conscious thoughts. Even


best thought is an activation of consciousness and it is an evil thing in my world that should be avoided.
You would need to understand what does it mean "from the ground up" and what are [b]natural and automatic[/b] benefits of creating torques in joints. Then you would need to try to imagine how it is possible to have a cascade of events (resulting from one another) instead a planned motion with conscious thoughts. If you are ready with this, we can go further.

Hope it helps, cheers.
[/quote]

Rear side adduction happens ......... What part of is adducting in relation to the spine or what?

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1296741635' post='2948305']It seems that everything is a micro scale detail and reasonings are always flawed

Your last question shows a lack of understanding of body motion, considering hogans head movement points to what is happening, and already been discussed and you refused to answer the reasonings behind it.

Little snippet from a forum , you state Snead used more vertical forces than hogan , well how come he shifted out way more than hogan in transition?
[/quote]

Welcome, my next "shadow" appeared.

Let's assume I don't understand anything. Let's assume you understand everything in exchange. So why are you appearing only when seeing my posts ? Why do you even bother reading them, let alone responding to them ? And how come you are unable to explain even the smallest thing in simple terms ?

As per your last question - it does not refer to my researches, thus, I won't answer although it's a very easy issue to explain. Try to find the answer by yourself.

Cheers

[eightiron]

I read them because most would get glazy eyed over all the medical terms you throw around , so most would not understand a word you write , heck my wife who is a real doctor explains it all to me and she finds it all fascinating , especially since what you write mostly contradicts what she studied for 8 years

[Mathias]

[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1296705470' post='2947712']
Yes. Once you know /understand the "joint moves", all you've got to do is turn the hips. That's your only thought in downswing but in reality, golfers especially recreational/amateurs are just focused on theose "joint moves", they totally forget the hip turn. So they learn the correct joint moves, then hits em solid, but left, then they tweak the "joint moves" to straighten their balls, ending up wronging their "joint moves"n then wonders what the hell is wrong, so they relearn the "joint moves", then hit it solid again, then lefts, then relearn again.. Lol

Know what, that "timing" lesson which I previously said here was mentioned by Nicklaus, I was wrong, it wasn't Nicklaus as I reread his book. I thought about it, and it was this old playing pro, in his 60s, who still hits it straight and 250 yards, carry only. Wow. I think that's the secret of the pros. It was taught to him when he was young also by a playing pro, who also hits its straight and long and balls falling almost on top of each other. This older pro, even if he has hit balls almost on top of each other still shakes his head, to the disbelief of his son. So his son asked, what the hell are you shaking your head for father?! The father said, the ball flights are not exactly the same height! Damnit the son said, this time he's the one shaking his head in amazement.

Anyway, is there a book that teaches this turn of hips left in ds aside from 5Lessons?
[/quote]

Mr. WilliamBenjamin11,


I think Joe Dante also teaches the turn of the hips to the left (if I'm not mistaken). I skimmed through it today from his "Four Magic Moves" book. Either that or it was from Percy Boomer's book, I can't remember hahaha.

Also, do you mind posting that swing you think resembles Mr. Hogan's? It would be interesting to be able to see it (maybe a PM if you're reluctant to post it publicly)? A close one that I've seen so far is John Gustin's swing. I'm trying to learn as much as possible from swings of the greats (particularly Mr. Hogan's).

Lately, I've also been pondering on the transition. But what makes it difficult IMO is how the transition is a 'blended' motion of both backswing and downswing. So it's not really clear to me when does it begin and end each and everytime. Hence, I've been thinking the transition itself is kind of 'flexible' and quite elusive; thus why it's hard to pin point it and why it is open to many interpretations.

But I would also like to ask a question to everyone here. Are there any difference between starting the downswing by hip rotation or by having a 'feel' of transferring the weight to the front foot? When I experiment with both, there doesn't seem to be any difference in the "look" of the swings and their outcomes. But I'm curious if starting with either one has slight [b]anatomical[/b] differences (like do they make use of the same muscles, etc)? Of course, individual preference and 'feels' may vary, but I believe this might help me gain better understanding of the transition move. Thanks beforehand!

[williambenjamin11]

Dante just teaches hip slide, not turn, so hip turn is just the byproduct. Dunno percy boomer's book/teachings,all I know just based on posts here.

There's a huge diff bet mainly rotating hips versus mainly sliding/transferring weight. Rotating hips will make hips/lower body much ahead of upper body. If you mainly slide/bump, hips if at all is ahead alright, but minimal, not enough to eliminate Hogan's lefts. Remember Hogan's goal is to remove lefts. This is his assurance that lefts will not happen.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1296743623' post='2948364']
I read them because most would get glazy eyed over all the medical terms you throw around , so most would not understand a word you write , heck my wife who is a real doctor explains it all to me and she finds it all fascinating , especially since what you write mostly contradicts what she studied for 8 years
[/quote]

The truth is that I can explain EVERYTHING what I wrote using biolingo in simple terms on request. I did it many times in the BioThread as well as in other threads. The other truth is that you cannot explain a thing without using your desperate TGMish empty mumbling.
And you finally evoked my interest - I wonder what doctors in your country differ from doctors in my country with. I used a lot of help from medical doctors in my researches. I am very curious what areas I am wrong according to your wife. I'd be the first to ammend anything I wrote with potentially gained new knowledge both in anatomy as well as in physics.
You know, it is easy to throw accusations, you're a master in this. Too bad that usually in your case they always appear as blind bullets.

Cheers

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1296666436' post='2945853']


http://biokineticgolfswing.blogspot.com/2010/04/sagittal-plane-compression-concept-part_15.html

Start reading with the following sentences, please: "OK, as it has been already discussed when talking about the spine, the rear side adduction that happens as a natural consequence of a correctly performed backswing is also the crucial force in the pelvis area. Before the lead side leads the parade via its abduction the sagittal plane of the pelvis should be compressed. It won't be if we start the transition by lead hip pulling as it was drawn in '5 Lessons' (famous elastic tape image), we need to let the rear hip

[/quote]

Ok, you ask posters to read your stuff and post this, so what exactly is adducting in your medical terms regarding hogans swing... What part of the rear side? What exactly have you described in golf swing moves? .....

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1296774711' post='2949576']Ok, you ask posters to read your stuff and post this, so what exactly is adducting in your medical terms regarding hogans swing... What part of the rear side? What exactly have you described in golf swing moves? .....
[/quote]

Golf swing motion is a compilation of compression and expansion phases ocurring in the sagittal plane. Abduction and adduction are general descriptions of acts of moving away from or toward the sagittal plane axis. Therefore, abduction is a synonym for expansion while adduction is a synonym for compression so that a reader could know/check what we talk about so that the words "expansion" and "compression" are understood correctly.
Is it good enough explanation for you ? If not I am sorry, I won't present a better one since I can only present my truth and won't be posing something extra just to please someone.

Cheers

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1296776757' post='2949627']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1296774711' post='2949576']Ok, you ask posters to read your stuff and post this, so what exactly is adducting in your medical terms regarding hogans swing... What part of the rear side? What exactly have you described in golf swing moves? .....
[/quote]

Golf swing motion is a compilation of compression and expansion phases ocurring in the sagittal plane. Abduction and adduction are general descriptions of acts of moving away from or toward the sagittal plane axis. Therefore, abduction is a synonym for expansion while adduction is a synonym for compression so that a reader could know/check what we talk about so that the words "expansion" and "compression" are understood correctly.
Is it good enough explanation for you ? If not I am sorry, I won't present a better one since I can only present my truth and won't be posing something extra just to please someone.

Cheers
[/quote]

No, I asked what part of the rear side is adducting........ I know the actual definitions of adduction and abduction , which are towards and away from anatomical neutral and usually referenced with the frontal plane......... I am also aware of sagittal plane ,usually referencing flexion and extension, but once again what part is exactly adducting on the rear side........ Simple question

[williambenjamin11]

Dariusz, I think the terms you are using are indeed not necessary for all golfers to hear. I think what's necessary is what the golfer will consciously do. The how. They ddont care what happens inside their organs, bones, ligaments etc, unless they're in the hospital already.. I believe you made it more difficult rather than easier for golfers to understand what to do. And it aint Hogan, at least to me that's what seems to be your overall presentation.

Now to the merits in layman's terms...

When you just let the lower body/hips rotate automatically after the automatic linear motion, the lower body will not be sufficiently ahead of upper body to ENSURE that lefts are totally eliminated. In other word, this will ensure the fades, rights and straights. The faster you swing, the straighter it gets bec the faster you swing the upper body (after the hip turn), the straighter it gets bec the upper body catches up more with the lower body which as I said is ahead.

This is the "timing" lesson in talking about--how ahead the hips should be to the upper body. The more ahead, the more right. The more behind the hips, the more left. Since Hogan's swing is designed to hit it left but solid and far, all he has to do is make sure the hips/lower body be ahead of upper body, this eliminated the lefts, totally..

If you rotate (moreso if you just let it automatically) the hips after the linear motion, its too late bec by that time the upper body has already caught up. Yoi can delay the catching up, but that's not enough to ensure you eliminate lefts of Hogan. Also, if you can delay the upper body, that means you're not coiling enough, hence sapping the shot of distance.