"THERE MUST BE ENOUGH LATERAL MOTION FORWARD TO TRANSFER THE WEIGHT TO THE LEFT FOOT"

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297293926' post='2964100']Well , all I read is a response filled with nothing in response to elbow location and shirt seam , right arm bend , overtaking rates, extension and side tilt, no answer to your statement re Mac and the rate at which the right arm straightens.What happened to actual answers...

Just as in ground forces , I find that your body motion plane science is just totally different to actual experts......

However, let's just say they are all wrong , then that would elevate you to the pinnacle of research , and make your pattern the ultimate link between the great ball strikers of history.

Imagine that[b] ,[/b] dariusz , with that home made swing standing in the middle, being the link between all the great ball strikers, and there you are standing on the top of newtons shoulders , guess I shouldn't ask any questions
[/quote]

Listen, I have already responded to exactly these or similar questions till my last breath but lost willingness to respond any more being treated by you in an unfair manner all the time.
But for the sake of discussion here you are:
1. Shirt seam - may be revelant for punch elbow players in microscale a'la Hardy, neither relevant for Hogan's unique pattern nor in macroscale; the most important thing is to ensure perpendicularity of the rear forearm in relation to the spine and to ensure that humerus is being supported by main body and forearm supports the shaft; like you have a short arms and elbow joints were joints connecting them to the body near waist - vide Hogan's drill from Ed Sullivan show;
2. Mac's right arm - it straightens more and sooner in case of Mac comparing to Hogan; it goes too much to the front of the body and humerus loses support from the main body; there's no possibility of ideal synchronizing the motion of both body and the rear arm in the most crucial phase;
3.Overtaking rates - you would need to rephrase the question in easier English for me;
4. Extension and side tilt - they happen during the motion and they are useful but I do not see connections with the rear elbow differences in movement between Mac and Hogan since both elements are present in their swings.


[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1297306656' post='2964796']D, in hogans full swings can you tell us what is the earliest and the latest you've seen the humerus begin and end the subdued to the pivot period ?
[/quote]

As already mentioned - the earliest - when his rear elbow joint stops to move independently on the main body movement; the latest - in the impact zone when his arm begins to straighten while releasing the kinetic chain. The trick is that his arm is beautifully tied to his pivot in the most crucial phase for repeatability and consistency and, moreover, all is done the way he did not lose dynamics to achieve it (as in case of Furyk or punch elbow players).


[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1297317235' post='2965229']
In connection with the OP's orig topic, just learned that VJ Trolio in his book Final Missing Piece has said you lateral during bs and just turn hips in ds. What's the major objection/criticism in this book again? I believe the book was "attacked" in this forum in the past?
[/quote]

The only one criticism from my part is that although Trolio spotted correctly the phenomenon he can explain it only as a conscious action and not a cascade of biophysical events resulting one from the other.

Cheers

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1297326535' post='2965356']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297293926' post='2964100']Well , all I read is a response filled with nothing in response to elbow location and shirt seam , right arm bend , overtaking rates, extension and side tilt, no answer to your statement re Mac and the rate at which the right arm straightens.What happened to actual answers...

Just as in ground forces , I find that your body motion plane science is just totally different to actual experts......

However, let's just say they are all wrong , then that would elevate you to the pinnacle of research , and make your pattern the ultimate link between the great ball strikers of history.

Imagine that[b] ,[/b] dariusz , with that home made swing standing in the middle, being the link between all the great ball strikers, and there you are standing on the top of newtons shoulders , guess I shouldn't ask any questions
[/quote]

Listen, I have already responded to exactly these or similar questions till my last breath but lost willingness to respond any more being treated by you in an unfair manner all the time.
But for the sake of discussion here you are:
1. Shirt seam - may be revelant for punch elbow players in microscale a'la Hardy, neither relevant for Hogan's unique pattern nor in macroscale; the most important thing is to ensure perpendicularity of the rear forearm in relation to the spine and to ensure that humerus is being supported by main body and forearm supports the shaft; like you have a short arms and elbow joints were joints connecting them to the body near waist - vide Hogan's drill from Ed Sullivan show;
2. Mac's right arm - it straightens more and sooner in case of Mac comparing to Hogan; it goes too much to the front of the body and humerus loses support from the main body; there's no possibility of ideal synchronizing the motion of both body and the rear arm in the most crucial phase;
3.Overtaking rates - you would need to rephrase the question in easier English for me;
4. Extension and side tilt - they happen during the motion and they are useful but I do not see connections with the rear elbow differences in movement between Mac and Hogan since both elements are present in their swings.


[/quote]

Spare me the victim theatrics , lets get into your answers

1/ shirt seam is a point of reference only , but lets see without the macro-stuff , how it stands up. Perpendicular is 90 deg , right .... so exactly what part of the spine is it 90 degrees to and when in the downswing
. Ensure the humerus is being supported by the body !! So what position will allow the humerus to be supported by the body better ... Punch or Pitch elbow location.... Lets look at forearm supporting the shaft .... in reality at what point in the downswing does the forearm lose ability to support the shaft.. really does it support the shaft ... stay with it , I will upload some pics
Lets compare punch v pitch and see if punch really supports the shaft and if the humerus is being supported by the main body or pushing against it

[eightiron]

continued, imop punch elbow ain't doing any of the stuff you say it does

[eightiron]

[color=#1C2837]2. Mac's right arm - it straightens more and sooner in case of Mac comparing to Hogan; it goes too much to the front of the body and humerus loses support from the main body; there's no possibility of ideal synchronizing the motion of both body and the rear arm in the most crucial phase;
3.Overtaking rates - you would need to rephrase the question in easier English for me;
4. Extension and side tilt - they happen during the motion and they are useful but I do not see connections with the rear elbow differences in movement between Mac and Hogan since both elements are present in their swings. [/color]
[color=#1C2837]
[/color]
[color=#1C2837]2/ Have you measured off the right arm of Mac v Hogan ........ perhaps you could email him and let him no that he is failing in maintaining some pressure points in his own pattern[/color]
[color=#1C2837]3/ Overtaking would be kinetic chain as in shoulder slows, arm slows [/color]
[color=#1C2837]4/ Extension is not happening at all in your pattern, you may want to investigate some lateral flexion of the left side as well ( in backswing) [/color]

[Dariusz J.]

[size="4"]Where did I ever say that I am capable of doing Hogan's arms pattern ? What's your point of comparing me to Hogan when I always underline that it is beyond my understanding how he did it ? Why did I call it Hogan's disorder ? [/size]
If I didn't know you for quite a long time I'd think you're simply retarded.

Now look at Hogan's elbow and the first phase of moving it forward (say, the fast deep pitch phase - your 2 photos) and imagine that this elbow does not move more than that. Compare it to O'Grady, Garcia or any other classic pitch elbow player and neither you see their elbows move so deeply in the first phase nor stalling them in relation to main body in the second phase (say, the punch elbow stall phase). How many times one should repeat the same things, damn !

As regards your questions concerning O'Grady's pitch elbow which I suspect is the apogeum of pitch elbows - you're so good in taking pictures so put side by side pics of Mac and Hogan exactly the same way you put me and Hogan, but till the moment of impact. Maybe this excercise will help you to understand obvious things.

Cheers

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1297343340' post='2965443']
[size="4"]Where did I ever say that I am capable of doing Hogan's arms pattern ? What's your point of comparing me to Hogan when I always underline that it is beyond my understanding how he did it ? Why did I call it Hogan's disorder ? [/size]
If I didn't know you for quite a long time I'd think you're simply retarded.

Now look at Hogan's elbow and the first phase of moving it forward (say, the fast deep pitch phase - your 2 photos) and imagine that this elbow does not move more than that. Compare it to O'Grady, Garcia or any other classic pitch elbow player and neither you see their elbows move so deeply in the first phase nor stalling them in relation to main body in the second phase (say, the punch elbow stall phase). How many times one should repeat the same things, damn !

As regards your questions concerning O'Grady's pitch elbow which I suspect is the apogeum of pitch elbows - you're so good in taking pictures so put side by side pics of Mac and Hogan exactly the same way you put me and Hogan, but till the moment of impact. Maybe this excercise will help you to understand obvious things.

Cheers
[/quote]

You sure its only the arms pattern or the whole body motion that prevents the arms pattern from getting a resemblance of Hogan , w/ regard to Mac , not much footage around and which pattern is he doing
Did you really answer any points written above , Nope

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297344043' post='2965462']You sure its only the arms pattern or the whole body motion that prevents the arms pattern from getting a resemblance of Hogan , w/ regard to Mac , not much footage around and which pattern is he doing
Did you really answer any points written above , Nope
[/quote]

Now you will be looking for excuses...
...you can always show yourself with your pitch elbow, can't you ?

What points did I not answer again ?

Cheers

[KevCarter]

[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1297317235' post='2965229']
In connection with the OP's orig topic, just learned that VJ Trolio in his book Final Missing Piece has said you lateral during bs and just turn hips in ds. What's the major objection/criticism in this book again? I believe the book was "attacked" in this forum in the past?
[/quote]

I am by no means an expert on Mr. Hogan like many others here, but from a teaching and playing perspective, I love the book. One of my favorites. It sort of validates a move I made earlier in my playing career that many thought I needed to change...

Kevin

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1297345046' post='2965490']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297344043' post='2965462']You sure its only the arms pattern or the whole body motion that prevents the arms pattern from getting a resemblance of Hogan , w/ regard to Mac , not much footage around and which pattern is he doing
Did you really answer any points written above , Nope
[/quote]

Now you will be looking for excuses...
...you can always show yourself with your pitch elbow, can't you ?

What points did I not answer again ?

Cheers
[/quote]

Read my post again, and imop it would not matter if its joe blow in pitch or fred sausage in punch, although perhaps I shouldn't have used you as an example cause I hesitate to call it punch, more like bat elbow....... like 2 extremes hogan pitch v bat elbow, however 2 closer positions like a Mac Pitch vs a Wi Punch would still apply, much lesser degree

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1297306656' post='2964796']
roughly, use Px.y
[/quote]

i think tgm came up with the p stuff so its easier to know we are talking about the same stuff. 'when' someone sees subduing might depend on how they are interpreting the pivot.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297346335' post='2965544']Read my post again, and imop it would not matter if its joe blow in pitch or fred ausage in punch, although perhaps I shouldn't have used you as an example cause I hesitate to call it punch, more like bat elbow....... like 2 extremes hogan pitch v bat elbow, however 2 closer positions like a Mac Pitch vs a Wi Punch would still apply, much lesser degree
[/quote]

Again, typical behaviour showed in case of lacks of arguments. Apropos, do you ever think how silly belittling others sounds in the mouth of somebody who is a permanent chicken on the forum ?
Why I am wasting my time with someone like you. Beats me.


[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1297348366' post='2965596']i think tgm came up with the p stuff so its easier to know we are talking about the same stuff. 'when' someone sees subduing might depend on how they are interpreting the pivot.
[/quote]

If you want p stuff...until more or less p5 (his rear arm was perpendicular to the ground) his elbow usually already got into stalled positiom and rest there practically until p7 (impact).

Cheers

[dap]

Hogan has his right elbow pointed straight down halfway into his downswing.Dariusz J has what I call a flying right elbow transition.They are worlds apart.Both can work but unless you have that right elbow position of Hogan,you really don't have the essence of his swing.Furyk is trying like heck to get it pointed down but even he is flying it.That is why I didn't agree that he should be compared to Hogan.

Just to set the record straight,I am not criticizing the flying right elbow downswing or what Eight calls "bat elbow".Quite a few touring pros do this so it can't be that bad.....but it aint Hogan.

Hogan's elbow position is an extreme form of pitch elbow.It is so extreme that the right elbow has to stall at some point for the hands to catch up.It is not a "disorder".I can name a number of current touring pros that does this.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1297356758' post='2965917']
Hogan has his right elbow pointed straight down halfway into his downswing.Dariusz J has what I call a flying right elbow transition.They are worlds apart.Both can work but unless you have that right elbow position of Hogan,you really don't have the essence of his swing.Furyk is trying like heck to get it pointed down but even he is flying it.That is why I didn't agree that he should be compared to Hogan.

Just to set the record straight,I am not criticizing the flying right elbow downswing or what Eight calls "bat elbow".Quite a few touring pros do this so it can't be that bad.....but it aint Hogan.

Hogan's elbow position is an extreme form of pitch elbow.It is so extreme that the right elbow has to stall at some point for the hands to catch up.It is not a "disorder".I can name a number of current touring pros that does this.
[/quote]

How I like when someone comes and says things without knowing background.

Dap, FYI, my macroscale researches aimed at achieving automatic consistency of a pattern give the priority for general biophysical phenomena over microscale ones. I am of the opinion that the most important thing, irregardless of pitch or punch or other TGM microscale crap, is perpendicularity of the distal parts to the core and maximum possible subduing their movement to the main body movement. Bot can be easily achieved with pitchy or punchy elbow - there's only one condition - the rear elbow cannot wander too much in the front of the body and the rear arm straighten to soon. It require sound pivot that ensures continuous body turn.

Lastly, for 1000000 times (!!!!) never said I look like Hogan in this area, never said Furyk looks the same ! Why are some of you constantly putting things into my mouth ?!
My macroscale theories are one thing and this small microscale part of the discussion belonging to the overall crusade against me that concerns the elbow "disorder" is completely another thing. It occured that theis topic was mentioned here in some point of the original discussion concerning the lateral element of Hogan's motion.

Do you get the whole picture now, Dap ???

Cheers

P.S. Show me one man who is able to copy Hogan in this sphere. Best with pictures side by side so there are no excuses later on. C'mon.

[dap]

"perpendicularity to distal parts" is too microscale.May I suggest a macroscale "perpendicular to well below perpendicular" might be more appropriate.

I love your microscale/macroscale arguments.It is pure genius.You can never lose.LOL

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1297358443' post='2965975']
"perpendicularity to distal parts" is too microscale.May I suggest a macroscale "perpendicular to well below perpendicular" might be more appropriate.

I love your microscale/macroscale arguments.It is pure genius.You can never lose.LOL
[/quote]

First, "perpendicularity [b]of[/b] distal parts";
secondly, the deviations of this rule can be accepted if they do not jeopardize the concept, like in case of lead arm being slightly below perpendicular at the transition; however, the closer to impact there is less room to exceptions - the rear forearm should be always perpendicular to the core and always support shaft being in-line with it;
lastly, you're wrong, I can "lose" - if someone can prove that the general biophysical principles I took are pure bs. But never by arguing in microscale against macroscale. The word "lose" is not good - who really can lose or win are students of the game - either they will be fed up with horrible bunch of microscale nonsenses and the average HCP will never drop down - or viceversa.

Cheers

[dap]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1297359209' post='2966003']
[quote name='dap' timestamp='1297358443' post='2965975']
"perpendicularity to distal parts" is too microscale.May I suggest a macroscale "perpendicular to well below perpendicular" might be more appropriate.

I love your microscale/macroscale arguments.It is pure genius.You can never lose.LOL
[/quote]

First, "perpendicularity [b]of[/b] distal parts";
secondly, the deviations of this rule can be accepted if they do not jeopardize the concept, like in case of lead arm being slightly below perpendicular at the transition; however, the closer to impact there is less room to exceptions - the rear forearm should be always perpendicular to the core and always support shaft being in-line with it;
lastly, you're wrong, I can "lose" - if someone can prove that the general biophysical principles I took are pure bs. But never by arguing in microscale against macroscale. The word "lose" is not good - who really can lose or win are students of the game - either they will be fed up with horrible bunch of microscale nonsenses and the average HCP will never drop down - or viceversa.

Cheers
[/quote]
Ok...so it's acceptable to deviate to be well under perpendicular in order to achieve automatic mode.Deviate above perpendicular and you will be in manual mode.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1297359924' post='2966029']Ok...so it's acceptable to deviate to be well under perpendicular in order to achieve automatic mode.Deviate above perpendicular and you will be in manual mode.
[/quote]

In case of the top - yes. Because both perpendicular and below perpendicular means lead humerus tied with the main body while above perpendicular means lead humerus tied with the air. Mind you, when being at the top the lead arm keeps connection with the body, not rear one, so that the transition and begining of the downswing is in sync.

Cheers

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1297354382' post='2965819']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297346335' post='2965544']Read my post again, and imop it would not matter if its joe blow in pitch or fred ausage in punch, although perhaps I shouldn't have used you as an example cause I hesitate to call it punch, more like bat elbow....... like 2 extremes hogan pitch v bat elbow, however 2 closer positions like a Mac Pitch vs a Wi Punch would still apply, much lesser degree
[/quote]

Again, typical behaviour showed in case of lacks of arguments. Apropos, do you ever think how silly belittling others sounds in the mouth of somebody who is a permanent chicken on the forum ?
Why I am wasting my time with someone like you. Beats me.

...until more or less p5 (his rear arm was perpendicular to the ground) his elbow usually already got into stalled positiom and rest there practically until p7 (impact).

Cheers
[/quote]


What is the problem with my post ? How did I "lack of arguments" ? You always ask people to present a case , and when they actually do ( as in GRF ) and body plane motion in 3-D / with regard to bio-medical stuff , you never actually and get all huffed up...... same in this case

lets rewind and see who lacked a coherent argument

you said

[color=#1C2837][size=2]1. Shirt seam - may be revelant for punch elbow players in microscale a'la Hardy, neither relevant for Hogan's unique pattern nor in macroscale;[b] the most important thing is to ensure perpendicularity of the rear forearm in relation to the spine and to ensure that humerus is being supported by main body and forearm supports the shaf[/b]t; like you have a short arms and elbow joints were joints connecting them to the body near waist - vide Hogan's drill from Ed Sullivan show;[/size][/color]


I responded

[color=#1C2837][size=2]1/ shirt seam is a point of reference only , but lets see without the macro-stuff , how it stands up. Perpendicular is 90 deg , right .... so exactly what part of the spine is it 90 degrees to and when in the downswing
. Ensure the humerus is being supported by the body !! So what position will allow the humerus to be supported by the body better ... Punch or Pitch elbow location.... Lets look at forearm supporting the shaft .... in reality at what point in the downswing does the forearm lose ability to support the shaft.. really does it support the shaft ... stay with it , I will upload some pics
Lets compare punch v pitch and see if punch really supports the shaft and if the humerus is being supported by the main body or pushing against it[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]
[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]Basically I am saying that the elbow location is significant and in Bat elbow location being extreme there is NO support of the shaft and the humerus is pushing against the body ( if it actually gets to the body ) on the downswing........ Punch elbow is slightly better.... Pitch elbow better again .. and Hogan's case the best[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]
[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]So bottom line is you say in macros the elbow location is not relevant , how is that , when if its in bat / or too punchy ... two of the main ingredients are not possible ( the only one possible is forearm 90 deg to a point of spine)[/size][/color]

[Dariusz J.]

OK, my time for apologizing (as I have ever heard the word from you...lol) - indeed, I haven't noticed these questions. My bad. Answers below:

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297376205' post='2966736']lets rewind and see who lacked a coherent argument

you said

[color=#1C2837][size=2]1. Shirt seam - may be revelant for punch elbow players in microscale a'la Hardy, neither relevant for Hogan's unique pattern nor in macroscale;[b] the most important thing is to ensure perpendicularity of the rear forearm in relation to the spine and to ensure that humerus is being supported by main body and forearm supports the shaf[/b]t; like you have a short arms and elbow joints were joints connecting them to the body near waist - vide Hogan's drill from Ed Sullivan show;[/size][/color]


I responded

[color=#1C2837][size=2]1/ shirt seam is a point of reference only , but lets see without the macro-stuff , how it stands up. Perpendicular is 90 deg , right .... so exactly what part of the spine is it 90 degrees to and when in the downswing
. Ensure the humerus is being supported by the body !! So what position will allow the humerus to be supported by the body better ... Punch or Pitch elbow location.... Lets look at forearm supporting the shaft .... in reality at what point in the downswing does the forearm lose ability to support the shaft.. really does it support the shaft ... stay with it , I will upload some pics
Lets compare punch v pitch and see if punch really supports the shaft and if the humerus is being supported by the main body or pushing against it[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]
[/size][/color][/quote]

What part of the spine ? Always thoracic.

What position will allow the humerus to be supported by the body better ? As said many times, not letting the elbow go in front of the body = not letting the humerus detach from the body before entering the impact zone.

Classic punch = hands leading = elbow left behind hip early = relatively easy to maintain the connection with main body = lacks of dynamics because of incorrect order of the release chain (in general)

Classic pitch = elbow leading = elbow tends to go to the front = relatively difficult to maintain the connection with main body = great dynamics due to the correct order in the release chain (in general)

Hogan = merging pros of the above and eliminating cons.

Where doesn't the rear forearm supporting the shaft ? When it is not parallely in-line with shaft. That's why EPP is so important since it guarantees this support the longest period of time before impact.

[quote]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]So bottom line is you say in macros the elbow location is not relevant , how is that , when if its in bat / or too punchy ... two of the main ingredients are not possible ( the only one possible is forearm 90 deg to a point of spine)[/size][/color]
[/quote]

Yes, it is not important in macroscale since no matter what elbow motion type one performs both perpendicularity of the forearm to the spine as well as reaching EEP is not excluded. Granted it is easier to achieve these conditions with pitchy elbow (and so started Hogan) but it is easier to maintain the humerus connection with main body with punchy one (so ended Hogan).

Cheers

[Diz]

only one....
[attachment=726972:hogan8.jpg]

[dap]

Dariusz J,I am not so sure that right elbow position doesn't matter entirely.Although the Hogan right elbow/forearm pointed straight down position is not absolutely necessary in a good swing,you are not going to find many pros with with their right forearm sticking up in the air on the downswing either.Most would have the right forearm between parallel to the spine to pointed down like Hogan.I agree with Eight here.An extreme bat elbow position is rare amongst good players and more common amongst higher handicappers.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1297407531' post='2967936']
Dariusz J,I am not so sure that right elbow position doesn't matter entirely.Although the Hogan right elbow/forearm pointed straight down position is not absolutely necessary in a good swing,you are not going to find many pros with with their right forearm sticking up in the air on the downswing either.Most would have the right forearm between parallel to the spine to pointed down like Hogan.I agree with Eight here.An extreme bat elbow position is rare amongst good players and more common amongst higher handicappers.
[/quote]

I never said in does not matter at all. I say only that it does not matter much in macroscale. It is of secondary importance comparing to much more important biophysical phenomena. OTOH, it would matter a lot if performing this or that in microscale would exclude this important principle or that important principle in macroscale. But it does not.
One more thing - I am not trying to defend my motion at all; no matter what Eight thinks, there are areas that I am close to Hogan, there are areas that I am very far away from him. I just want to use the same big picture principles that form the common denominator for all best ballstrikers, from Hogan through Moe to Furyk.

Cheers

P.S. Additionally I'd like to stress that I almost puke when I use this microscale/macroscale crap and these two words again, but I cannot express it otherwise.

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1297378949' post='2966858']
OK, my time for apologizing (as I have ever heard the word from you...lol) - indeed, I haven't noticed these questions. My bad. Answers below:

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297376205' post='2966736']lets rewind and see who lacked a coherent argument

you said

[color="#1C2837"][size="2"]1. Shirt seam - may be revelant for punch elbow players in microscale a'la Hardy, neither relevant for Hogan's unique pattern nor in macroscale;[b] the most important thing is to ensure perpendicularity of the rear forearm in relation to the spine and to ensure that humerus is being supported by main body and forearm supports the shaf[/b]t; like you have a short arms and elbow joints were joints connecting them to the body near waist - vide Hogan's drill from Ed Sullivan show;[/size][/color]


I responded

[color="#1C2837"][size="2"]1/ shirt seam is a point of reference only , but lets see without the macro-stuff , how it stands up. Perpendicular is 90 deg , right .... so exactly what part of the spine is it 90 degrees to and when in the downswing
. Ensure the humerus is being supported by the body !! So what position will allow the humerus to be supported by the body better ... Punch or Pitch elbow location.... Lets look at forearm supporting the shaft .... in reality at what point in the downswing does the forearm lose ability to support the shaft.. really does it support the shaft ... stay with it , I will upload some pics
Lets compare punch v pitch and see if punch really supports the shaft and if the humerus is being supported by the main body or pushing against it[/size][/color]
[color="#1C2837"] [/color][/quote]

What part of the spine ? Always thoracic.
[b]
What position will allow the humerus to be supported by the body better ? As said many times, not letting the elbow go in front of the body = not letting the humerus detach from the body before entering the impact zone.[/b]

Classic punch = hands leading = elbow left behind hip early = relatively easy to maintain the connection with main body = lacks of dynamics because of incorrect order of the release chain (in general)

Classic pitch = elbow leading = elbow tends to go to the front = relatively difficult to maintain the connection with main body = great dynamics due to the correct order in the release chain (in general)

Hogan = merging pros of the above and eliminating cons.

Where doesn't the rear forearm supporting the shaft ? When it is not parallely in-line with shaft. That's why EPP is so important since it guarantees this support the longest period of time before impact.

[quote]
[color="#1C2837"][size="2"]So bottom line is you say in macros the elbow location is not relevant , how is that , when if its in bat / or too punchy ... two of the main ingredients are not possible ( the only one possible is forearm 90 deg to a point of spine)[/size][/color]
[/quote]

Yes, it is not important in macroscale since no matter what elbow motion type one performs both perpendicularity of the forearm to the spine as well as reaching EEP is not excluded. Granted it is easier to achieve these conditions with pitchy elbow (and so started Hogan) but it is easier to maintain the humerus connection with main body with punchy one (so ended Hogan).

Cheers
[/quote]

Ok , lets have a close look at this humerus being supported by the body better........ lets use Jimmy as an example .... with a real close up instead of some vague DTL camera view ...... is his forearm really supporting the shaft as well ..... I can make a case for Hogan with pitch elbow and right forearm supinated

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTuTrpWCZhU&NR=1

now on the DTL , you may think so , but up close on the face on ....... nada , doing nothing of the sort with that humerus, in facto its separating before entering impact

Hogan ..... I keep reading punchy elbow ..... you got some pics of Hogan in punch elbow from a face on

[williambenjamin11]

Why would connection be generally lost if you have pitch elbow?

[JOEGOLFWRX]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1297378949' post='2966858']
Where doesn't the rear [b]forearm[/b] supporting the shaft ? When it is not [b]parallely in-line with shaft[/b]. That's why EPP is so important since it guarantees this support the longest period of time before impact.
[/quote]

what does "parallely in-line with shaft" mean, in real 3D world terms ?

if the forearm is perpendicular to the thoracic, then the thoracic has negative target tilt (like sergio does at the top) when hogans elbow is above his wrist and his humerus is subdued.
[attachment=727078:bh123.jpg]

the bio geometry doesn't add up from here, especially as you prescribe maintaining this geometry 'the longest'. it's a recipe for backing off and coming up and out of the shot with a counter move to hit it.


given initial direction is mostly face control, how do you know it's not the punch/slap-hinge that is making your ball look straighter? ... but you still need to repeat true loft to control trajectory/distance, and then maximize power to optimize.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297427341' post='2968040']Ok , lets have a close look at this humerus being supported by the body better........ lets use Jimmy as an example .... with a real close up instead of some vague DTL camera view ...... is his forearm really supporting the shaft as well ..... I can make a case for Hogan with pitch elbow and right forearm supinated

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTuTrpWCZhU&NR=1

now on the DTL , you may think so , but up close on the face on ....... nada , doing nothing of the sort with that humerus, in facto its separating before entering impact

Hogan ..... I keep reading punchy elbow ..... you got some pics of Hogan in punch elbow from a face on
[/quote]

This is a great slo-mo vid of Furyk, never seen it before.
Indeed, his humerus is surprisingly losing its connection well before entering the impact zone. The only one explanation that comes to my mind is that he is so open that Furyk's lead arm connection is being maintained aalmost at its length making it impossible to keep both elbows so close to each other = both lead whole arm & rear whole humerus pinned to main body. I said this somehow in defense on my theories (SPC), because in line with them the lead side is leading after the transition compression phase. But, it's surprising for me.
Let me analyze it a bit more - if I have something wise to comment, I will.


[quote name='williambenjamin11' timestamp='1297428233' post='2968053']
Why would connection be generally lost if you have pitch elbow?
[/quote]

Because with a classic pitch elbow it usually moves out of synch of the body and becomes thrown out in the front of the body - as in case of many great pitch elbow players (e.g. Garcia or Mac). The rule of thumb is that the bigger the gap between the elbow joint and the body is the smaller is the connection rate between the humerus and the body.


[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1297429795' post='2968073']
what does "parallely in-line with shaft" mean, in real 3D world terms ?
if the forearm is perpendicular to the thoracic, then the thoracic has negative target tilt (like sergio does at the top) when hogans elbow is above his wrist and his humerus is subdued.
[attachment=727078:bh123.jpg]
[/quote]

Look at the pic you posted. This is just about time his rear elbow stalls and from this moment it won't move at independent different rate in relation to the body movement. It is his forearm that moves in 3-D, thus, a fraction later it will be perpendicular to his core in the sagittal plane. Of course spine/core changes tilt angles but it does not affect the relation between both parts.

[quote]
the bio geometry doesn't add up from here, especially as you prescribe maintaining this geometry 'the longest'. it's a recipe for backing off and coming up and out of the shot with a counter move to hit it.
[/quote]

'The longest' was just used to underline the stability of the whole dynamic system. I agree that it was not used the luckiest way.

[quote]
given initial direction is mostly face control, how do you know it's not the punch/slap-hinge that is making your ball look straighter? ... but you still need to repeat true loft to control trajectory/distance, and then maximize power to optimize.
[/quote]

Very good question. The answer is - slap-hinge release is not a premature flip and it does not differ much from the push release approaching impact. The clubface in both above cases enters the impact zone with square angles towards the arc. Only in case of the crossover release the square-to-the-arc zone is very tight.
I do not assume such errors as premature flipping - there is no place for it even in the big picture.

Cheers

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1297434112' post='2968176']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297427341' post='2968040']Ok , lets have a close look at this humerus being supported by the body better........ lets use Jimmy as an example .... with a real close up instead of some vague DTL camera view ...... is his forearm really supporting the shaft as well ..... I can make a case for Hogan with pitch elbow and right forearm supinated

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTuTrpWCZhU&NR=1"]http://www.youtube.c...TuTrpWCZhU&NR=1[/url]

now on the DTL , you may think so , but up close on the face on ....... nada , doing nothing of the sort with that humerus, in facto its separating before entering impact

Hogan ..... I keep reading punchy elbow ..... you got some pics of Hogan in punch elbow from a face on
[/quote]

This is a great slo-mo vid of Furyk, never seen it before.
Indeed, his humerus is surprisingly losing its connection well before entering the impact zone. The only one explanation that comes to my mind is that he is so open that Furyk's lead arm connection is being maintained aalmost at its length making it impossible to keep both elbows so close to each other = both lead whole arm & rear whole humerus pinned to main body. I said this somehow in defense on my theories (SPC), because in line with them the lead side is leading after the transition compression phase. But, it's surprising for me.
Let me analyze it a bit more - if I have something wise to comment, I will.

[/quote]

Surprising, you checked out a face on of your own bio-k method, the humerus is being supported by air all the way down to the ball.


Basically imop, its connection hype overcooked and this whole lead arm pinned with rear whole humerus pinned behind the main body is a recipe for the shortest weakest golfswing.... like what your tgm friends say pivot controlled hands ( a dog wagging its tail ) or as Hogan said.... you can't go around a golf course swinging like that....

now how about some hogan punch elbow impact face on pics.......

[TeeAce]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297439793' post='2968385']

Basically imop, its connection hype overcooked and this whole lead arm pinned with rear whole humerus pinned behind the main body is a recipe for the shortest weakest golfswing.... like what your tgm friends say pivot controlled hands ( a dog wagging its tail ) or as Hogan said.... you can't go around a golf course swinging like that....


[/quote]

I don't want to say too much, but that is far away from the truth. Or You mean Alvaro Quiros and Rory or Sergio and about all guys on tour has problems with power?

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297439793' post='2968385']Surprising, you checked out a face on of your own bio-k method, the humerus is being supported by air all the way down to the ball.

Basically imop, its connection hype overcooked and this whole lead arm pinned with rear whole humerus pinned behind the main body is a recipe for the shortest weakest golfswing.... like what your tgm friends say pivot controlled hands ( a dog wagging its tail ) or as Hogan said.... you can't go around a golf course swinging like that....

now how about some hogan punch elbow impact face on pics.......
[/quote]


Yes, surprisingly, since Furyk's not a fat barrel-chested old fart as myself who can have big problems with touching my side with my elbow joint. Here are the photos of my son who follows my biokinetic principles ("pitch conversing into punch") and is a real aspiring young player; take a close look how his humerus/elbow stays in total sync with his turning body (he has both humera pinned) and is famous around here as a very accurate player and great ballstriker for his age:

[attachment=727169:Adrian11.jpg][attachment=727164:Adrian01.jpg][attachment=727170:Adrian12.jpg][attachment=727165:Adrian02.jpg][attachment=727171:Adrian13.jpg][attachment=727166:Adrian03.jpg][attachment=727172:Adrian14.jpg][attachment=727167:Adrian04.jpg][attachment=727173:Adrian15.jpg][attachment=727168:Adrian05.jpg]

I would agree that the pivot controlled procedure is weaker than the other, but more accurate and repeatable. [i]Qui pro quo[/i], mate, as everywhere in the world.

Lastly, I'd suggest everyone to wait with final comments as regards what's really weak and what's not for TeeAce and his team researches of the kinetic chain.

Cheers

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1297443599' post='2968527']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297439793' post='2968385']Surprising, you checked out a face on of your own bio-k method, the humerus is being supported by air all the way down to the ball.

Basically imop, its connection hype overcooked and this whole lead arm pinned with rear whole humerus pinned behind the main body is a recipe for the shortest weakest golfswing.... like what your tgm friends say pivot controlled hands ( a dog wagging its tail ) or as Hogan said.... you can't go around a golf course swinging like that....

now how about some hogan punch elbow impact face on pics.......
[/quote]


Yes, surprisingly, since Furyk's not a fat barrel-chested old fart as myself who can have big problems with touching my side with my elbow joint. Here are the photos of my son who follows my biokinetic principles ("pitch conversing into punch") and is a real aspiring young player; take a close look how his humerus/elbow stays in total sync with his turning body (he has both humera pinned) and is famous around here as a very accurate player and great ballstriker for his age:

[attachment=727169:Adrian11.jpg][attachment=727164:Adrian01.jpg][attachment=727170:Adrian12.jpg][attachment=727165:Adrian02.jpg][attachment=727171:Adrian13.jpg][attachment=727166:Adrian03.jpg][attachment=727172:Adrian14.jpg][attachment=727167:Adrian04.jpg][attachment=727173:Adrian15.jpg][attachment=727168:Adrian05.jpg]

I would agree that the pivot controlled procedure is weaker than the other, but more accurate and repeatable. [i]Qui pro quo[/i], mate, as everywhere in the world.

Lastly, I'd suggest everyone to wait with final comments as regards what's really weak and what's not for TeeAce and his team researches of the kinetic chain.

Cheers
[/quote]

I'm sure he is quite the golfer, looks a lot like Jimmy , but what about top and start down pics .... is it pitch elbow..... he is in punch elbow in those pics . Interesting isn't it, if you put pics up of Jimmy , he would look for all the world to be connected up.... but slo mot video up close shows different story.......... look at the young kids shirt on the dtl frame.... notice the sunlight appearing in the last frame
Would Hogan be as connected as made out with quality up close footage...... See, there is footage of Mac from camera angles looking connected / glued up

What about some hogan punch elbow pics face on? any ?