70% of speed from hands? Where does this idea come from?

[Chunkitgood]

I’m willing to learn and maybe even change my ideas.  It has happened a time or two.

 

But what does this “70 % of speed from hands” mean, what is the source of this metric, and where is the data?

 

And whose speed?

[argee1977]

I wouldn't get too hung up on this term, it's not the hands really, it's the arms, and it's more a statement to stop people thinking speed comes from the body turn and no arms or the old fast hips swing, reality is the hands are the only thing thats attached to the club, so how the energy is transferred, either efficiently or inefficiently.

 

Paddy Harrington has some good videos on arm speed / hand speed, all sensible info in them, as if you can get your arms moving faster, it does seem easier to move the body faster to keep it all in balance.

[Soloman1]

from academic papers written after testing players of different levels. you can even find which muscles and muscle groups do the most work in sequence during the swing grouped by handicap. i’ve posted some of it here somewhere years ago.

 

nobody seems to care much about data. it’s too much work to read and their eyes roll back into their skulls. people prefer anecdotes, stories, myths, fiction and feelings by individual players and influencers.

 

the good news is that you can start by using the link below. that bad news is it will require the ability and motivation to read and not just watch a 30 second instagram.

 

https://scholar.google.com

 

 

[Zeph]

2 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

from academic papers written after testing players of different levels. you can even find which muscles and muscle groups do the most work in sequence during the swing grouped by handicap. i’ve posted some of it here somewhere years ago.

 

nobody seems to care much about data. it’s too much work to read and their eyes roll back into their skulls. people prefer anecdotes, stories, myths, fiction and feelings by individual players and influencers.

 

the good news is that you can start by using the link below. that bad news is it will require the ability and motivation to read and not just watch a 30 second instagram.

 

https://scholar.google.com

I prefer data, but if someone summarize the data in a graphic that is easier to access, understand and share, it's far more likely to reach people. There's nothing wrong with a 30 second IG post if what is presented is actually true or accurate.

 

You link to Google Scholar, but it would be more helpful to share the actual papers you refer to.

[Llortamaisey]

I’m sure someone came up with the theory long ago, and was in the minority of conventional swing theory, but it wasn’t until the advent of 3D swing mapping systems like Gears and others where it could actually be proven. Kind of like the new ball flight laws were thought to be completely wrong until finally proven by the advent of launch monitors. I’m old enough to remember the days where you were a heretic if you didn’t think that the club face had nothing to do with start line. Boy was that silly. 

Edited May 24 by Llortamaisey

[stryper]

3 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

from academic papers written after testing players of different levels. you can even find which muscles and muscle groups do the most work in sequence during the swing grouped by handicap. i’ve posted some of it here somewhere years ago.

 

nobody seems to care much about data. it’s too much work to read and their eyes roll back into their skulls. people prefer anecdotes, stories, myths, fiction and feelings by individual players and influencers.

 

the good news is that you can start by using the link below. that bad news is it will require the ability and motivation to read and not just watch a 30 second instagram.

 

https://scholar.google.com

 

 

That wasn’t so hard to read. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Socrates]

Even without any data, it is not hard to see that the further you have an object from the center of the axis of rotation, the faster it will move if it is attached to that axis.  Add in a couple of levers and it's not hard to figure it out (even without math).   It's not necessarily the hands, but the whole unit working.  The trick is to sequence it all so that all the speed isn't coming just from one action.  The better you get at that, the easier it is and looks effortless.

[naval2006]

Long hitters have arm and hand speed and also the ability to gather momentum and explode right at the hit.  I sometimes play with one skinny guy who can rip it big time.  His hand speed is epic, I've never seen somebody faster than him.  But on a deeper look everything about him is fast through the ball.  

[Soloman1]

2 hours ago, Zeph said:

You link to Google Scholar, but it would be more helpful to share the actual papers you refer to.

 

the problem with that is people pick apart the data or methodology of the papers, then expect me to defend and/or explain something further for them.

 

or they won’t read it.

 

and they’re on a different computer. 

 

and there is nothing wrong with pointing people to where to research.

 

and they’ll expect me to cut their grass in the afternoon after i’ve done their homework. 🙂

 

[Nels55]

Some data:

https://www.mytpi.com/articles/biomechanics/the-linear-kinematic-sequence

[Talldog]

I think of the golf swing more like cracking a whip.

 

The whip cracks, because you get the tip to break the speed of sound (767 mph). You do that by flicking your hand, and somehow that slow motion causes the tip to move fast. Something about links on a chain and levers multiplying the energy as it moves down the length of the whip.

 

In golf, you make this relatively slow motion of rotating your hips, and somehow that slow motion works its way through your shoulders, arms, and club (like the energy moving down to the end of a whip) and gets the head of the golf club moving 100 miles an hour.

 

I know I could never move my hands 100 miles an hour in a straight line (even for just a few feet), so there has got to be something else going on. Something that's multiplying that small bit of speed I can produce.

 

Anyway, I don't think focusing on the hands (which are in the middle of "the whip") is the right area to focus on gaining more speed. 

Edited May 24 by Talldog

[Socrates]

27 minutes ago, Talldog said:

I think of the golf swing more like cracking a whip.

 

The whip cracks, because you get the tip to break the speed of sound (767 mph). You do that by flicking your hand, and somehow that slow motion causes the tip to move fast. Something about links on a chain and levers multiplying the energy as it moves down the length of the whip.

 

In golf, you make this relatively slow motion of rotating your hips, and somehow that slow motion works its way through your shoulders, arms, and club (like the energy moving down to the end of a whip) and gets the head of the golf club moving 100 miles an hour.

 

I know I could never move my hands 100 miles an hour in a straight line (even for just a few feet), so there has got to be something else going on. Something that's multiplying that small bit of speed I can produce.

 

Anyway, I don't think focusing on the hands (which are in the middle of "the whip") is the right area to focus on gaining more speed. 

As I said, it's the whole package that is important.  To focus on one part is where things go awry. 

[golf-RN]

3 hours ago, Soloman1 said:

 

the problem with that is people pick apart the data or methodology of the papers, then expect me to defend and/or explain something further for them.

 

or they won’t read it.

 

and they’re on a different computer. 

 

and there is nothing wrong with pointing people to where to research.

 

and they’ll expect me to cut their grass in the afternoon after i’ve done their homework. 🙂

 

Just make sure you change the name on it, I don't to get in trouble turning my paper in with your name on it, I mean gees LOL j/k'ing

[KD1]

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5rFNKVPOzr/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[Zeph]

It’s about creating a chain of forces that end up with the wrists releasing the clubhead into the ball. Look at a baseball pitcher. The hips first move their weight forward, then start to turn, the upper body turns, the arm is thrown forward and finally the fingers release the ball. A golf swing is not exactly the same, but there’s the hips moving forward, turning, torso turning, arms coming down and finally the hands releasing the clubhead into the ball.

If you try to turn your torso quickly without moving the arms along, they will first stay where they are and move the wrong way relative to your torso. Eventually the joints can’t go farther and they will start moving the other way again, same way as the torso. At that point, any force the torso was generating is mostly lost, so all you got left to produce speed are the arms.

 

There’s no way the hands can get from almost the side of your back shoulder at the top of the backswing to in front of your chest at impact without swinging the arms hard.

[GungHoGolf]

1 hour ago, Zeph said:

There’s no way the hands can get from almost the side of your back shoulder at the top of the backswing to in front of your chest at impact without swinging the arms hard.

Hands are still behind the chest at impact (right elbow still bent). They catch up to the center of the chest (both arms straight) around P8.

 

The arms go down fast from the top of the backswing, but they don’t go forward relative to the chest as much as it looks like.

Edited May 24 by GungHoGolf

[BdaGolfer]

4 hours ago, KD1 said:

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C5rFNKVPOzr/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

Monte and his fancy furniture...this was the first clip I thought of when I read the post.

[phizzy30]

Hand, arm and hip speed all have to do with how fast you can swing.  Sequence all three correctly and efficiently which in turn will deliver max speed into the ball. 

Edited May 25 by phizzy30

[baudi]

1 hour ago, GungHoGolf said:

Hands are still behind the chest at impact

My chest is located between my armpits.

If both of my hands are behind my armpits at impact, I can make a swing but then must hit the ball somewhere behind my knees and behind my trail foot.  

 

[MonteScheinblum]

26 minutes ago, phizzy30 said:

Hand, arm and hip speed all have to do with how fast you can swing.  Sequence all three efficiently which will deliver max speed into the ball. 

This is where there is a disconnect.  False dichotomy of arms for speed and body for consistency and accuracy.

 

All of the people who accelerate their arms late are labeled as having an arm dominated swing and have both poor accuracy and distance.  The people who accelerate them on time are said to have a pivot driven swing.
 

People who like the pivot driven swing narrative don’t want listen to data and results.  
 

I have seen 100’s of 3D captures (likely over 1000) of golfers from pro level to beginner.  
 

Nearly all pro level golfers accelerate the arms on time.  I believe I only saw 1 who didn’t.

 

A huge number of golfers who felt armsy and were told they had an arm dominated swing, accelerated their arms late.   Range of motion ran out, body stall, arms take over.  That’s like 90+% of golfers.
 

These poor people have been told for decades to fire the body more and harder.

 

You can make a case it’s from thorax and/or hips having a poor acceleration deceleration curve, but these things work backwards and forward.

 

In any case, firing more and harder will make it worse.

 

Starting the downswing with the arms is IMPOSSIBLE unless you’re in outer space or you’re suspended in mid air.  I’m sorry to say anyone who says the swing should start from the ground up is trying to act like they know what they’re talking about, but it’s a meaningless and redundant statement.  
 

It’s like saying water is wet.

 

A cake tastes nasty with not enough sugar.  It will come out as sludge if it doesn’t have enough flour.

 

I don’t want a flour or sugar dominated cake.  I want one with the proper elements.
 

I could say, “Shift earlier, stay closed longer, start the arms sooner and release the wrist angles asap,” for every lesson without even seeing them swing and the only people who wouldn’t get better for sure if they just worked on that, are the ones with bad setups or horrible backswings…..and most of them would get better too.  Making setup and backswing competent just makes the quoted statement easier.  The only variable is which one of those 4 things can I choose to get them to do that will automatically make the  other 3 better without trying.  Thats where the art is.

 

You know how I know this?

 

Pressure trace, wrist graph and LM numbers get better when even 1 of the things in the quoted passage happen……100% of the time.  Not 99.9….100

 

That’s over 20,000 lessons worth.

Edited May 25 by MonteScheinblum

[GungHoGolf]

46 minutes ago, baudi said:

My chest is located between my armpits.

If both of my hands are behind my armpits at impact, I can make a swing but then must hit the ball somewhere behind my knees and behind my trail foot.  

 

I was using the center of the chest (sternum) as the landmark. The hands are closer to the right armpit than the center of the chest at impact, unless you stall the shoulders and early extend/flip with straight arms at impact.

 

See around 7:20 here:

 

[baudi]

@ GungHo. Yeah I know what you meant but your first description was painfully off.

[ThinkingPlus]

20 minutes ago, baudi said:

@ GungHo. Yeah I know what you meant but your first description was painfully off.

BTW, using "@" the way you have here doesn't work. You have to type the "@" symbol followed by the first letter of the member then wait for the dialog box to choose the correct member to get the notification like this @GungHoGolf.

[GungHoGolf]

27 minutes ago, baudi said:

your first description was painfully off.

That’s a little harsh. The hands are definitely behind the chest at impact, if you think in 3D and consider where the chest is pointing, and not even with the chest as the post I was responding to suggested.

[baudi]

@GungHoGolfSorry - did not mean to be harsh.

[Zeph]

7 hours ago, GungHoGolf said:

Hands are still behind the chest at impact (right elbow still bent). They catch up to the center of the chest (both arms straight) around P8.

 

The arms go down fast from the top of the backswing, but they don’t go forward relative to the chest as much as it looks like.

They may not be square in front of the chest at impact, but certainly more in front than at the top of the backswing. The elbow is still a bit bent, but less than at the top. The point is that relative to the chest, the hands have moved from outside the back shoulder to closer to the middle of the chest. They can't do that unless you swing the arms down.

 

Edit: I saw your clairification about "behind", and I think we agree. The arms have not reached the sternum, but are closer than at the top. That's what I meant. That the arms have moved closer to the sternum

 

Edited May 25 by Zeph

[ShortGolfer]

I read somewhere that bomb and gouge is an simple and effective course strategy.  Just get your drive as close to the green as possible.

I realized that if I sliced the ball around the trees that was the best I could do.  I could do that consistently with an armsy swing, one shot per round.

Didn't work for me, despite trying for a season.  I was better off with a longer shot from the fairway, as I couldn't control the shorter shot from the rough.

 

Maybe a baseball analogy is "can't hit the curve."  There are plenty of good baseball players who can hit heat.  There are few that can hit heat and a good curve ball.

Some players can't hit a curve, even when they know it is coming!  I wasn't able to hit the ball out of the rough.  Patchy weeds are really nasty, like hitting the ball out of a divot only worse.

The weeds are usually perennials with good root systems so they can grab onto a club face and cause mischief.

For a while they didn't have anyone with the proper license to use restricted pesticides.  They had a guy but promoted someone else so he left.  Adds to the challenge of playing a cheap muni.

Edited May 25 by ShortGolfer

[KD1]

19 minutes ago, Jugs said:

To me it's like saying one can knock a ball up the gap using only shoulders, arms, and hands but knocking it out of the park using legs and feet as a motor too.

 

https://youtube.com/shorts/r--8RGhAwko?si=Dhap8oFrgj2ZL4Uf

[MonteScheinblum]

55 minutes ago, Jugs said:

 

What does the phrase 'should start from the ground up' mean to you.  

 

To me it's like saying one can knock a ball up the gap using only shoulders, arms, and hands but knocking it out of the park using legs and feet as a motor too.  

 

 

Bad reading comprehension.  Read the whole post again.

[Dewdman42]

I think trying to move the hands fast through impact can cause the pivot to stall, perhaps temporarily, for the sake of sweeping the hands.  This in turn reduces good effective shaft lean at impact unless you shove your hands even further forward which is even worse.

 

i do think the hands need to be moved DOWN fast, as in Pete cowen’s spin it down thing.  they need to “keep up” with the shoulder turn also.  But if too much focus is put on moving the hands fast towards the target, then in my experience it leads to the pelvis and shoulder pivot  stalling out especially right through impact zone and some hand sweeping to occur even if just a little, at the expense of pivot.  The stalled pivot means less proper shaft lean if nothing else.

 

Not to say they won’t be moving fast, but it’s a question of muscle activations.  If activating muscles to move the hands fast, then the pivot will stall to facilitate it.  I think in order to “keep up” is more about some functional tension in the sweeping dimension?

 

Also in my opinion, attempting to accelerate or drag the hands through impact will destroy clubhead release and then the tendency will be to release earlier and earlier to make up for the fast hands dragging the grip through.  All with lost speed and poor dynamic loft consistency.  
 

I am painfully working through some of these things right now and actually slowing down my hands through impact is one of the things I have to do, facilitating both a later and snappier release as well as hopefully less of a stalled out pivot.  Very hard habit to break though as my pivot-pause-micro-hand-sweep-past-trail-leg is very grooved in.  But mentally I think what got me there was too much thinking about trying to accelerate the hands through impact.  Just my two cents

Edited May 25 by Dewdman42