"THERE MUST BE ENOUGH LATERAL MOTION FORWARD TO TRANSFER THE WEIGHT TO THE LEFT FOOT"

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297465537' post='2969326']
I'm sure he is quite the golfer, looks a lot like Jimmy , but what about top and start down pics .... is it pitch elbow..... he is in punch elbow in those pics . Interesting isn't it, if you put pics up of Jimmy , he would look for all the world to be connected up.... but slo mot video up close shows different story.......... look at the young kids shirt on the dtl frame.... notice the sunlight appearing in the last frame
Would Hogan be as connected as made out with quality up close footage...... See, there is footage of Mac from camera angles looking connected / glued up

What about some hogan punch elbow pics face on? any ?
[/quote]

Will do it tomorrow, too tired today to do it. I should not say it today but you will be left with your face wide open when you see his top...lol.
I just wanted to show clearly to you that's possible to have both humera body dependent between p5 and p8.
Now, your turn - show me a better one. Name it. Etc.

Sleep well with TGM book under your pillow....lol.


Cheers

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1297467720' post='2969423']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297465537' post='2969326']
I'm sure he is quite the golfer, looks a lot like Jimmy , but what about top and start down pics .... is it pitch elbow..... he is in punch elbow in those pics . Interesting isn't it, if you put pics up of Jimmy , he would look for all the world to be connected up.... but slo mot video up close shows different story.......... look at the young kids shirt on the dtl frame.... notice the sunlight appearing in the last frame
Would Hogan be as connected as made out with quality up close footage...... See, there is footage of Mac from camera angles looking connected / glued up

What about some hogan punch elbow pics face on? any ?
[/quote]

Will do it tomorrow, too tired today to do it. I should not say it today but you will be left with your face wide open when you see his top...lol.
I just wanted to show clearly to you that's possible to have both humera body dependent between p5 and p8.
Now, your turn - show me a better one. Name it. Etc.

Sleep well with TGM book under your pillow....lol.


Cheers
[/quote]


Just the actual swing will do... has potential for sure.... Hogan/ punch pics ? That furyk video sure was a eye opener , who would have thought that possible with the jammy jam arms on a still long range pic

[tembolo1284]

8i...that's the 3rd or 4th time you've asked for hogan punch pics.

AWESOME!

[Dariusz J.]

Just the next day after publishing yours...lol. Or the best of your students.... Lmao. Perhaps your TGM friends will help you...lol.

Just joking, g'nite & cheers

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1297468400' post='2969446']
8i...that's the 3rd or 4th time you've asked for hogan punch pics.

AWESOME!
[/quote]

Who are you ??? Lmao...awesome...lol.

Cheers

[eightiron]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1297468400' post='2969446']
8i...that's the 3rd or 4th time you've asked for hogan punch pics.

AWESOME!
[/quote]

I wanna see them , I can't locate any....

[Siteseer2]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297468924' post='2969467']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1297468400' post='2969446']
8i...that's the 3rd or 4th time you've asked for hogan punch pics.

AWESOME!
[/quote]

I wanna see them , I can't locate any....
[/quote]

You know Eight, I agree wholeheartedly with you.......I spent ALOT of time analyzing Hogan and punch vs pitch elbow ( this was THE thing that I just could not swallow in the Hardy stable)....I could show some Hogan "punch" (deep pitch??) looking elbow at p5.5 ish, ...but damn NONE into the deep down swing...NO WAY was Hogan in punch...impact alignments would have been all wrong.... and Hogan had GREAT impact alignmnets...
In fact, I have NEVER seen any player in punch that didn't have more of a sweep release, or else had BIG time extensor action, ala Furyk, Quiros, Kuchar et al., in order to get the sweetspot out.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1297468654' post='2969457']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1297468400' post='2969446']
8i...that's the 3rd or 4th time you've asked for hogan punch pics.

AWESOME!
[/quote]

Who are you ??? Lmao...awesome...lol.

Cheers
[/quote]


I come on here daily so I can check out your beautiful legs! Sexy!

[JOEGOLFWRX]

punch putting doesnt count D, lol.

[Lake]

So Dariusz...your kid has a great swing...great job on helping him get really clean...BUT...his model ain't near Hogan's....not even sniffing it... and this is a Hogan Forum is it not...what does his swing have to do w/ getting folks to get their lateral motion forward similar to Ben's??? Drive the knees and jam the arms??? C'mon man...Hogan's heroes are spinning like dj pauly d's turntable!!

[TeeAce]

[quote name='Siteseer2' timestamp='1297475179' post='2969722']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297468924' post='2969467']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1297468400' post='2969446']
8i...that's the 3rd or 4th time you've asked for hogan punch pics.

AWESOME!
[/quote]

I wanna see them , I can't locate any....
[/quote]

You know Eight, I agree wholeheartedly with you.......I spent ALOT of time analyzing Hogan and punch vs pitch elbow ( this was THE thing that I just could not swallow in the Hardy stable)....I could show some Hogan "punch" (deep pitch??) looking elbow at p5.5 ish, ...but damn NONE into the deep down swing...NO WAY was Hogan in punch...impact alignments would have been all wrong.... and Hogan had GREAT impact alignmnets...
In fact, I have NEVER seen any player in punch that didn't have more of a sweep release, or else had BIG time extensor action, ala Furyk, Quiros, Kuchar et al., in order to get the sweetspot out.
[/quote]

Have You thought that what it looks is much depended e.g. how much shoulders are open at that point? Watching those bad quality videos or still pictures from different moments is not maybe the easiest way to figure that out.

I'm not eves sure anymore what people means with pitch or punch elbow? What moment of the swing? By what muscular action and from which point?

Can You please show me the light here?

[Lake]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1297491133' post='2970325']

Have You thought that what it looks is much depended e.g. how much shoulders are open at that point? Watching those bad quality videos or still pictures from different moments is not maybe the easiest way to figure that out.

I'm not eves sure anymore what people means with pitch or punch elbow? What moment of the swing? By what muscular action and from which point?

Can You please show me the light here?
[/quote]

Look TeeAce...you sound like a nice/smart guy...I even stopped by your booth at the show...wish I knew than that you were on this forum but I've been on a walkabout for a while w/ the forum stuff!! Personally, I don't care the footage of Hogan isn't up to today's standard...it's still very, very, very legible. So much so I'm sick to my stomach that smart people in this forum are this stirred-up on how he loaded and released his angles. The kinematic sequence isn't going away anytime soon...it's a law...but the geometric options available to us are very flexible in respect to different models of sequence/alignments/etc...this is where TPI and every other 3-D graph tech goes out the window and well trained coaches step-in. Is dariusz wrong...NO...he has locked onto a model...and it is just that...is it ideal...well...any model performed to its standard is going to produce d-plane quality bullets. However, it doesn't make it the cats meow...and since we are in Hogan's Forum... this is a whole different can of worms compared to his...sad to say seeing how much I know he's studied Mr. Hogan. I personally thought when I first logged in after over a year that Dariusz would be slinging some Hogan sod w/ his action.... not the case.

[lagster]

[i]The kinematic sequence isn't going away anytime soon...it's a law...but the geometric options available to us are very flexible in respect to different models of sequence/alignments/etc...this is where TPI and every other 3-D graph tech goes out the window and well trained coaches step-in. Is dariusz wrong...NO...he has locked onto a model...and it is just that...is it ideal...well...any model performed to its standard is going to produce d-plane quality bullets.

[/i]I don't have a dog in this hun[i]t but[/i] that statement is worth it's weight in gold[i].
[/i]

[eightiron]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1297490233' post='2970304']
punch putting doesnt count D, lol.
[/quote]

Nice one, finally punch elbow

[dap]

What is pitch or punch elbow?Well i'm sure there are many posters who would write a thousand word scientific mumbo jumbo post on the matter but I like to keep things simple but to the point.

Players like Hogan who get the right elbow pointed down very early in the transition would fit my criteria of pitch regardless of where he "stalls" the right elbow.To say Hogan goes from pitch to punch is trying too hard to be clever.

Players who have a flying bat elbow on the transition like Furyk and DJ uses a punch elbow.

And then there will be all those other players in between...those in the grey area between pitch and punch.You just can't categorize everyone as being either pitch or punch.

[TeeAce]

[..this is where TPI and every other 3-D graph tech goes out the window and well trained coaches step-in.

 

100% agree. The worst case would be that we read the graphs wrong way and has the guy teaching based on those without understanding both... game and biomehanical side.

 

But my question was honest. How You define pitch or punch elbow because the view changes the picture.

 

About kinetic chain I will write in few weeks or months, because I want to make it really clear to myself first. For the moment it seems that there is lot of proofs that it exist and at least as much against it. I feel both are somehow right but it's again depended of measuring and which points according what axle we count it. Is the centre point fixed to the 3D world or is it fixed to the body? Many questions I want to find out, but what I'm most afraid is that kinetic chain will be overestimated and badly understood and leads to the action where people start to stop their hips to create power from that slowing speed to shoulders. It just cant go that way and it's a physical law in humans body.

 

Anyway here is one graph of the back shoulder speed with the driver club head speed of 124mph.

 

Right shoulder speed degrees / second around fixed vertical axis

[TeeAce]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1297494854' post='2970363']
What is pitch or punch elbow?Well i'm sure there are many posters who would write a thousand word scientific mumbo jumbo post on the matter but I like to keep things simple but to the point.

Players like Hogan who get the right elbow pointed down very early in the transition would fit my criteria of pitch regardless of where he "stalls" the right elbow.To say Hogan goes from pitch to punch is trying too hard to be clever.

Players who have a flying bat elbow on the transition like Furyk and DJ uses a punch elbow.

And then there will be all those other players in between...those in the grey area between pitch and punch.You just can't categorize everyone as being either pitch or punch.
[/quote]

Yep.. that's what I thought.

How I would define or make calculations about that is that I take the shaft line of the butt end and draw the direct line through wrist to right shoulder and see if the elbow is on that line or not. But You have to got camera looking all the time just from that shaft line direction or You get fooled! So camera has to move with the players rotation or we got wrong view

In that case for 90% of swings at some moment it is and some moment isn't. For me the important point is that player can stay in pitch or move from punch to pitch durin ds, but never opposite way like most of the average golfers do. It's again open the face with whole triangle of arms

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='lake' timestamp='1297490421' post='2970310']
So Dariusz...your kid has a great swing...great job on helping him get really clean...BUT...his model ain't near Hogan's....not even sniffing it... and this is a Hogan Forum is it not...what does his swing have to do w/ getting folks to get their lateral motion forward similar to Ben's??? Drive the knees and jam the arms??? C'mon man...Hogan's heroes are spinning like dj pauly d's turntable!!
[/quote]

Thank you for the compliment and you're right. We should discuss Hogan's swing only here. I wandered so much off the original topic because I wanted to defend my macroscale theories and explain them better so everyone would understand the whole deal. I end here. [b]Let's get back to linear motion in the pelvic area.[/b]

As regards your comment that my son's ain't near Hogan...or not even sniffing it - is just your personal opinion that I completely disagree with. In some microscale details he is very close to Hogan, in others he's far away - but the macroscale principles are identical. I really do not know why it is so hard to understand the big picture for you people coming from TGM. Most probably this book have an effect of taking away the ability of thinking large - it's great then that I was smart enough not to start to idolize it.

Lastly, one more comment about Hogan's pitch/punch elbow - I said very clearily 10000 times that Hogan neither used classic pitch nor classic punch. He started with deep pitch action and ended with punch elbow procedure/position/impact on humerus/body relation. His rear elbow joint never ever wandered much off his rear hip. Again, I do not know what it takes too long to understand such a simple mental construction. It's not black and white scenario.
But, as said, I end here. Noone will tell me that I did not try very hard to explain all this stuff. If I failed, it's not my fault, I believe.

Cheers

[JOEGOLFWRX]

d, what does "parallely in-line with shaft" mean, in real 3D world terms ?

still cant get my head around this.

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1297504255' post='2970428']
[quote name='lake' timestamp='1297490421' post='2970310']
So Dariusz...your kid has a great swing...great job on helping him get really clean...BUT...his model ain't near Hogan's....not even sniffing it... and this is a Hogan Forum is it not...what does his swing have to do w/ getting folks to get their lateral motion forward similar to Ben's??? Drive the knees and jam the arms??? C'mon man...Hogan's heroes are spinning like dj pauly d's turntable!!
[/quote]

Thank you for the compliment and you're right. We should discuss Hogan's swing only here. I wandered so much off the original topic because I wanted to defend my macroscale theories and explain them better so everyone would understand the whole deal. I end here. [b]Let's get back to linear motion in the pelvic area.[/b]

As regards your comment that my son's ain't near Hogan...or not even sniffing it - is just your personal opinion that I completely disagree with. In some microscale details he is very close to Hogan, in others he's far away - but the macroscale principles are identical. I really do not know why it is so hard to understand the big picture for you people coming from TGM. Most probably this book have an effect of taking away the ability of thinking large - it's great then that I was smart enough not to start to idolize it.

Lastly, one more comment about Hogan's pitch/punch elbow - I said very clearily 10000 times that Hogan neither used classic pitch nor classic punch. He started with deep pitch action and ended with punch elbow procedure/position/impact on humerus/body relation. His rear elbow joint never ever wandered much off his rear hip. Again, I do not know what it takes too long to understand such a simple mental construction. It's not black and white scenario.
But, as said, I end here. Noone will tell me that I did not try very hard to explain all this stuff. If I failed, it's not my fault, I believe.

Cheers
[/quote]


Lets deal with exactly what is macro and micro in your thread ... fair ... since the definitions / boundaries are obscure and the goalposts get moved . School us on how your method is Hogan in macro and what micro details of Hogan is present

Second....... What is the tgm definition of pitch elbow ? You clearly know about the whole deal of the book , since you are such a critic of it and all other golf theories/ methods

Three..... Show me a Hogan pic in punch elbow at impact... face on picture...... I don't want to read the wandered off the hip line again .... we get it .... just put the thing up

[hoganfan924]

If we measure things with a yardstick, we all swing like Hogan. If we measure with a micrometer, none of us swings like Hogan.

[tembolo1284]

Hey D question for you. You want to automate things as much as possible right? You also don't believe you should stay over your left leg like a SnT guy...so you believe you must get some weight into your right leg. You said the VJ Trolio move was good but you didn't like it because it wasn't automated enough.

How would you automate this motion exactly? If you move into your right leg, and if you have some lateral motion as well (although the lateral move is not necessary for the purposes of this discussion)...what can possibly be done to make the weight flow back naturally to the left leg before you complete the backswing? I believe one can practice this move so as to make it second nature, but the move will never be a natural consequence of anything you do in your backswing.



8i...that's 5 times you ask now.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1297525208' post='2970719']
d, what does "parallely in-line with shaft" mean, in real 3D world terms ?

still cant get my head around this.
[/quote]

It describes the situation where shaft is just an elongation of the rear forearm watching it in sagittal plane; say, if there are no changes in rear wrist flexion it would stay in line also in coronal plane. Typical only for elbow plane golfers. The earlier one can achieve this plane (EEP) the better - vide my not very good "the longer" comment before in the thread.


[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297525564' post='2970732']Lets deal with exactly what is macro and micro in your thread ... fair ... since the definitions / boundaries are obscure and the goalposts get moved . School us on how your method is Hogan in macro and what micro details of Hogan is present

Second....... What is the tgm definition of pitch elbow ? You clearly know about the whole deal of the book , since you are such a critic of it and all other golf theories/ methods

Three..... Show me a Hogan pic in punch elbow at impact... face on picture...... I don't want to read the wandered off the hip line again .... we get it .... just put the thing up
[/quote]

ad.1. it would take too much time to describe everything in detail together with necessary microscale correlations; just concentrate on what elements of a swing should bring the maximum repeatability and consistency and you'll have the answer;

ad.2. pitch elbow is just one of TGM descriptions explaining how rear elbow joint motion looks like when it leads the motion down and forward forcing the arms to go outwise and targetwise

ad.3. I think I find the best angle to show you how his elbow joint stays pinned to his hip until the impact; it is visible that his elbow detaches from his body on the last pic; same with sun on Adrian's shirt (that you noticed) that is visible but only after impact:

[attachment=727829:BHelbow1.jpg][attachment=727830:BHelbow2.jpg][attachment=727827:BHelbow3.jpg][attachment=727828:BHelbow4.jpg]


[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1297527874' post='2970822']
Hey D question for you. You want to automate things as much as possible right? You also don't believe you should stay over your left leg like a SnT guy...so you believe you must get some weight into your right leg. You said the VJ Trolio move was good but you didn't like it because it wasn't automated enough.

How would you automate this motion exactly? If you move into your right leg, and if you have some lateral motion as well (although the lateral move is not necessary for the purposes of this discussion)...what can possibly be done to make the weight flow back naturally to the left leg before you complete the backswing? I believe one can practice this move so as to make it second nature, but the move will never be a natural consequence of anything you do in your backswing.[/quote]

Good we are back to the original topic.

I have discussed this to the smallest detail at the first part of this thread. One can easily automate it thanks to benefitting from sequentially happening under-pelvic torques using a correct stance (that lets build firm rear side from the ground up).
If you are familiar with Sevam's Move you will know what I say. The crucial differences are that in my version one does not need to move so big amount of mass to the rear side so that the "screwing into the ground" procedure can happen and that one does not need to monitor this element of the swing.

Cheers

[Diz]

@ D ,Like the second photo,doesnt look like an lpga pivot.... so how is he getting so much seperation in the knees again? from a bio stand point...

thxs

diz

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='Diz' timestamp='1297534275' post='2971032']
@ D ,Like the second photo,doesnt look like an lpga pivot.... so how is he getting so much seperation in the knees again? from a bio stand point...

thxs

diz
[/quote]

Diz, the knee joint moves targetwise from bent-in to bent-out position after transition until it meets the biolimit (then it starts rotating in relation to the ankle joint till another biolimit, then the whole leg starts straightening). Since there is still some pressure left on the rear side and the rear knee cannot bend targetwise more the gap between both knees must increase.

Cheers

[eightiron]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1297532450' post='2970978']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1297525208' post='2970719']
d, what does "parallely in-line with shaft" mean, in real 3D world terms ?

still cant get my head around this.
[/quote]

It describes the situation where shaft is just an elongation of the rear forearm watching it in sagittal plane; say, if there are no changes in rear wrist flexion it would stay in line also in coronal plane. Typical only for elbow plane golfers. The earlier one can achieve this plane (EEP) the better - vide my not very good "the longer" comment before in the thread.


[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297525564' post='2970732']Lets deal with exactly what is macro and micro in your thread ... fair ... since the definitions / boundaries are obscure and the goalposts get moved . School us on how your method is Hogan in macro and what micro details of Hogan is present

Second....... What is the tgm definition of pitch elbow ? You clearly know about the whole deal of the book , since you are such a critic of it and all other golf theories/ methods

Three..... Show me a Hogan pic in punch elbow at impact... face on picture...... I don't want to read the wandered off the hip line again .... we get it .... just put the thing up
[/quote]

ad.1. it would take too much time to describe everything in detail together with necessary microscale correlations; just concentrate on what elements of a swing should bring the maximum repeatability and consistency and you'll have the answer;

ad.2. pitch elbow is just one of TGM descriptions explaining how rear elbow joint motion looks like when it leads the motion down and forward forcing the arms to go outwise and targetwise

ad.3. I think I find the best angle to show you how his elbow joint stays pinned to his hip until the impact; it is visible that his elbow detaches from his body on the last pic; same with sun on Adrian's shirt (that you noticed) that is visible but only after impact:

[attachment=727829:BHelbow1.jpg][attachment=727830:BHelbow2.jpg][attachment=727827:BHelbow3.jpg][attachment=727828:BHelbow4.jpg]

.

Cheers
[/quote]

In regard to 1/ so in other words in micro detail your method is close to Hogan?

2/ can you bring up exactly wtf you are talking about with tgm in regard to pitch elbow forcing the arms to go outwards and targetwise....... what is this definition a base plane right made up by who as pitch elbow

3/ Hogan is pitch elbow in that photo / and in regard to the sunlight , I think with a real slo motion quality camera your boys arm would detach before impact to get the clubhead out to the ball

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1297540204' post='2971212']In regard to 1/ so in other words in micro detail your method is close to Hogan?

2/ can you bring up exactly wtf you are talking about with tgm in regard to pitch elbow forcing the arms to go outwards and targetwise....... what is this definition a base plane right made up by who as pitch elbow

3/ Hogan is pitch elbow in that photo / and in regard to the sunlight , I think with a real slo motion quality camera your boys arm would detach before impact to get the clubhead out to the ball
[/quote]

ad.1. In some micro details - yes, in some - no.

ad.2. OK, you're TGM expert so define it better.

ad.3. Well, show me pitch vs. punch elbow DTL and FO approaching impact on photos put one near the other (like mine). Describe how you recognize what's pitchy and punchy judging on these enclosed photos.

4. I have just started a new thread about Hogan's swing and today's instruction; I wonder if you could participate with your explanations/desctriptions/visualizations.

Cheers

[tembolo1284]

8i? Where you go?

[Dariusz J.]

Suddenly everyone did go away, not only Eight - it's easy to ask questions aimed at criticizing, much tougher to formulate answers to be constructive and helpful to others. [i]C'est la vie[/i].

Cheers

[dap]

It's easy to see when someone is posting a lot to try and make a name for himself and perhaps garner enough interest to perhaps get something out of it in the end,be it to get lessons from students or to promote their own website to get more traffic or whatever.

I think in these cases you are absolutely fair game for criticism.

Then there are posters who are doing nothing more than discussing the golf swing amongst fellow golf swing enthusiasts.Even then,a lot of what these posters say are attacked so if you can't take it then don't dish it out.

Not all of us has a model to sell so what is there to criticize?