Can someone please put a date on these MacGregors?

[bigeasybri]

They're MacGregor Tommy Armour Mod. 65. I'm guessing 1950? Don't have a Kaplan book, so hopefully one of you guys who does can help. I bought these because the MacGregor 653s are my all time favorite and these are nearly identical. I am fairly certain they were a predecessor to the 653 model. Have the entire set and looking forward to refinishing them all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rex235]

Your 65s may have been just after your 653s, but the 5 screw insert is notable-

The Coal Black color and the "Tommy Armour" crown stamp seem to indicate the same time as the 653s... 1949-1954.

The photo flash appears to show the nice grain of this club.

It isn't how old, or how far.....it's "How Many?"

[Ironmaster Oddities]

[size="4"][/size]I think the model 65 evolved into the 653. I have one and you are right. It looks dead on with a 653. The 3 in the model numbers on 653 and 693 supposedly indicated shaft length and the first two numbers indicated the head model. I know that MacGregor had head models 69,65,40 among others.
Some of the older woods have no model# at all. They are just stamped "oil hardened". I have seen both Armour and Hogan this way. I also own a set of eye-o-matics stamped only "oil hardened." And they had to have been made in 1952-1955. They were from the custom shop and have Chuck Tanis on the crown.
Almost all of the Pre-war Tourney woods I have seen (late 1930's up to 1941) had 4-digit model numbers (ie 4377 Penna) and often the face was black like the rest of the head.
So, for what it's worth, I think they are probably 1945-1948. Regardless, they are a great set to own. Please post them when you get them finished.
Teevons might be a great source of information. He has a huge Macgregor stash. And he is a very good refinisher and all-around "Mac Doctor".
Bob

[teevons]

Thanks for the nice comments Bob! They are not listed in the Kaplan book , the one book I have that shows the head and description says: Medium size head Oil hardened,4 screw Red Fiber insert,swept back sole plate 1953 1954. The fact that yours have a 5 screw , and mine do also,throws a curve at this description. I have a couple of sets that are original and they are black finish
So they are like a 653 with red fiber insert instead of white black white. I have several sets of these and they have the same grips and shafts as a 1953 693 set. Hope this helps!
[/quote]

[bigeasybri]

Thanks for the info guys. All of the clubs--1,2,3 and 4 have the same red, five screw insert. I figured identifying these would be a simple matter of turning to page ____ of Kaplan and reading off a date. The mystery continues.

Ironmaster... I can attest to Teevons Mac refinishing skills. I have three clubs in my collection that came from him. I think he did a pretty good job on this club:

[attachment=860525:001.jpg]

[attachment=860526:002.jpg]

[teevons]

I just found one of my sets of 65's, they have a 4 screw insert, so they made both 4 screw and 5 screw as I have both style inserts!!



[quote name='bigeasybri' timestamp='1316381264' post='3572260']
Thanks for the info guys. All of the clubs--1,2,3 and 4 have the same red, five screw insert. I figured identifying these would be a simple matter of turning to page ____ of Kaplan and reading off a date. The mystery continues.

Ironmaster... I can attest to Teevons Mac refinishing skills. I have three clubs in my collection that came from him. I think he did a pretty good job on this club:

[attachment=860525:001.jpg]

[attachment=860526:002.jpg]
[/quote]

[xgolfx]

Model 40, later 403, was Toney Penna,s model. Model 69 later 693 was Penna's tag for Armour model. There were also combinations of the two. EG Charley Penna used the model 69 driver, but model 40 fairway woods. My name is Charley Penna. Toney was my uncle

[teevons]

Great info,thanks!! Were you able to score any of the famous Macgregor/ Penna woods??[If so ,any pictures would be great!!




quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1316998648' post='3590549']
Model 40, later 403, was Toney Penna,s model. Model 69 later 693 was Penna's tag for Armour model. There were also combinations of the two. EG Charley Penna used the model 69 driver, but model 40 fairway woods. My name is Charley Penna. Toney was my uncle
[/quote]

[Ironmaster Oddities]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1316998648' post='3590549']
Model 40, later 403, was Toney Penna,s model. Model 69 later 693 was Penna's tag for Armour model. There were also combinations of the two. EG Charley Penna used the model 69 driver, but model 40 fairway woods. My name is Charley Penna. Toney was my uncle
[/quote]
Charley,
That is really cool. The M-85 woods were set up like you described...Model 69 Driver and model 40 fairway woods. Your uncle had an amazing mind for creating innovative clubs.
Keep active on this site and send some pics of what you have.
Bob

[xgolfx]

[quote name='Ironmaster Oddities' timestamp='1317051411' post='3591732']
[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1316998648' post='3590549']
Model 40, later 403, was Toney Penna,s model. Model 69 later 693 was Penna's tag for Armour model. There were also combinations of the two. EG Charley Penna used the model 69 driver, but model 40 fairway woods. My name is Charley Penna. Toney was my uncle
[/quote]
Charley,
That is really cool. The M-85 woods were set up like you described...Model 69 Driver and model 40 fairway woods. Your uncle had an amazing mind for creating innovative clubs.
Keep active on this site and send some pics of what you have.
Bob
[/quote]

There are many variations on MacGregor clubs. screws in face( 4,5,6 or none). I can tell you that there are a lot of bad refinish jobs. EG most refinishers destroy the crown of the club , distorting the setup. The necks are sanded also. The whipping is usually plastic versus the twine. Black or cherry lacquer is replaced by epoxy or poly. The original stain was water based and rarely replaced properly. I will post prototypes which were never produced and Toney's reference clubs when I get the time.



There were many home pros who had their names stamped on the clubs they ordered. A few I can recall are Chuck Tanis Jerry Glynn, Bruce Herd, Stan Kertes,

Jack Koennecker, Claude Harmon, Faust Bianco, Ock Willowhite, Charley Penna, Harry Pezzullo, Harry Adams.

[astamm8]

[quote name='Ironmaster Oddities' timestamp='1317051411' post='3591732']
[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1316998648' post='3590549']
Model 40, later 403, was Toney Penna,s model. Model 69 later 693 was Penna's tag for Armour model. There were also combinations of the two. EG Charley Penna used the model 69 driver, but model 40 fairway woods. My name is Charley Penna. Toney was my uncle
[/quote]
Charley,
That is really cool. The M-85 woods were set up like you described...Model 69 Driver and model 40 fairway woods. Your uncle had an amazing mind for creating innovative clubs.
Keep active on this site and send some pics of what you have.
Bob
[/quote]



That was a very popular combo, Model 69 driver, model 40 woods. The M43 was like that I'm pretty sure, and I think most were after the 693/945 was phased out. I've always wanted to put together some sort of reference work for what the underlying heads were for different models. For example, were SS1W drivers model 69 or model 65? Fairways?

Were the Model 40 fairways that preferred over the model 69 or 65? Why?

And we know Jack used a 693, 3 wood, and we know what drivers Norman, Faldo, Crenshaw, Couples, et al used. But what fairways did they use? I've always wondered that.

[astamm8]

Charley,

Welcome, great to have you here. I have a couple of later (post-MacGregor) Penna's that are really wonderful, better than anything else at the time, in my opinion.

[astamm8]

I've always assumed that the Model 65s were predecessors to the 653s, but I have nothing to back that up. Stylistically if they were after, I would expect to see EOM and the other "innovations."

What about using the grip (assuming it's leather and original) to date the club? According to Kaplan, it seems that Mac was offering one leather grip at a time. If it was the Red Black two tone, it was from one period, if it was the Gold Bead one it was from another (later) time period. The Kaplan descriptions give a good description of the grips and it seems fairly consistent year to year. The shaft name is also helpful, but I think shafts were changed less frequently. Does anyone else use this to date clubs that don't appear in Kaplan? Is it reliable?

[xgolfx]

[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1317063761' post='3592274']
I've always assumed that the Model 65s were predecessors to the 653s, but I have nothing to back that up. Stylistically if they were after, I would expect to see EOM and the other "innovations."

What about using the grip (assuming it's leather and original) to date the club? According to Kaplan, it seems that Mac was offering one leather grip at a time. If it was the Red Black two tone, it was from one period, if it was the Gold Bead one it was from another (later) time period. The Kaplan descriptions give a good description of the grips and it seems fairly consistent year to year. The shaft name is also helpful, but I think shafts were changed less frequently. Does anyone else use this to date clubs that don't appear in Kaplan? Is it reliable?
[/quote]


You cannot use grips to date MacGregor clubs because personal preference ruled.The custom department, OS on the club would make to order. That included size and grip length. Toney had small hands never wore a glove, and used one sixteenth oversize grips . The grip on his driver was short, about an inch of grip showed when he gripped it.

[astamm8]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1317079762' post='3592962']
[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1317063761' post='3592274']
I've always assumed that the Model 65s were predecessors to the 653s, but I have nothing to back that up. Stylistically if they were after, I would expect to see EOM and the other "innovations."

What about using the grip (assuming it's leather and original) to date the club? According to Kaplan, it seems that Mac was offering one leather grip at a time. If it was the Red Black two tone, it was from one period, if it was the Gold Bead one it was from another (later) time period. The Kaplan descriptions give a good description of the grips and it seems fairly consistent year to year. The shaft name is also helpful, but I think shafts were changed less frequently. Does anyone else use this to date clubs that don't appear in Kaplan? Is it reliable?
[/quote]


You cannot use grips to date MacGregor clubs because personal preference ruled.The custom department, OS on the club would make to order. That included size and grip length. Toney had small hands never wore a glove, and used one sixteenth oversize grips . The grip on his driver was short, about an inch of grip showed when he gripped it.
[/quote]

What about for stock clubs as opposed to custom department stuff?

[weeicemon]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1317079762' post='3592962']
[quote name='astamm8' timestamp='1317063761' post='3592274']
I've always assumed that the Model 65s were predecessors to the 653s, but I have nothing to back that up. Stylistically if they were after, I would expect to see EOM and the other "innovations."

What about using the grip (assuming it's leather and original) to date the club? According to Kaplan, it seems that Mac was offering one leather grip at a time. If it was the Red Black two tone, it was from one period, if it was the Gold Bead one it was from another (later) time period. The Kaplan descriptions give a good description of the grips and it seems fairly consistent year to year. The shaft name is also helpful, but I think shafts were changed less frequently. Does anyone else use this to date clubs that don't appear in Kaplan? Is it reliable?
[/quote]


You cannot use grips to date MacGregor clubs because personal preference ruled.The custom department, OS on the club would make to order. That included size and grip length. Toney had small hands never wore a glove, and used one sixteenth oversize grips . The grip on his driver was short, about an inch of grip showed when he gripped it.
[/quote]


I have to disagree with the OS option. OS stood for "operational standard" meaning it was the day in, day out standard for a particular model. If the letters were reversed on the ferrule (SO), it meant the club or set was a special order. Straight from a former Macgregor sales rep.

[teevons]

I have owned many Macgregor irons over the years that were made special order for Macgregor staff and the serial numbers
started with OS, not SO for whatever that adds to the discussion.
I have a set that was made for Nicklaus that he played and the serial numbers start with OS,not SO









You cannot use grips to date MacGregor clubs because personal preference ruled.The custom department, OS on the club would make to order. That included size and grip length. Toney had small hands never wore a glove, and used one sixteenth oversize grips . The grip on his driver was short, about an inch of grip showed when he gripped it.
[/quote]


I have to disagree with the OS option. OS stood for "operational standard" meaning it was the day in, day out standard for a particular model. If the letters were reversed on the ferrule (SO), it meant the club or set was a special order. Straight from a former Macgregor sales rep.
[/quote]

[astamm8]

I have seen SO sets that were special order, but they were much later. All of these would have been special orders.

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/513793-macgregor-special-order/

http://www.ebay.com/itm/390349548592?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1438.l2649#ht_1605wt_1071

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Unused-MacGregor-Jack-Nicklaus-Custom-Limited-/390275580408?pt=Golf_Clubs&hash=item5ade3cc1f8#ht_931wt_1071