Senior Tour

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1330538870' post='4403553']
Would those guys, after being away from the competitive game for 20 year, wonder or get the itch to perhaps try to be a pro? Their lives are set and established and are doing it not because it's a regret, but rather, to give themselves another chance to prove their mettle.

Like you said, competitive golf is not the same, do you not miss it?
[/quote]


You have the odd guy who gets the itch to turn pro, someone like Rod Spittle comes to mind but the thing about guys like that is that the love for the game is still there during their working career and they play a bunch of amateur golf. Allen Doyle was in the same boat. A lot of guys have had their fill after college and have zero desire to play competitive golf ever again, a lot of those guys play 2 or 3 times a year when they have to for corporate reasons and other than that never think about the game. Some guys get the itch and try to play mini tour golf in their 40's but most realize that their best days are behind them pretty quickly and go back to what they are doing before, most guys have made peace with the fact that they are not going to be tour players because most guys who fit into this category know guys who are tour players and have spent enough time around them to a) know they are not at that level and b) to have enough understanding of the lifestyle and the strain it can put on a family to not want to drop everything and run out there. Priorities are big, for a lot of us golf was the most important thing in our lives at 23, by 40 things have shifted in a lot of cases.


Its not that I don't appreciate it, I do because its a kind thing for someone to say, but I often get the comment on here from people that they are impressed that I am willing to say that I simply was not good enough to play golf for a living and moved on with my life. I think that if there were more people with my background who posted on here as much as I do you guys would see that most of us who have spent enough time competing at a high level have figured out how good we are and thats why there is no real desire to get back out there. Whether it was in college or on the mini tours we tried to compete with the best players and figured out that we are not as good as they are, so we moved on, it doesn't mean we don't wish we were good enough to make a million dollars a year playing golf, its that we know we are not that good so we move on with our lives.

Do I miss competitive golf? I miss things about it, I miss hanging out with the boys, I miss performing well and the sense of self satisfaction that comes from that, I miss setting a goal, working towards it, and achieving it (but I have found an outlet for that in other parts of my life so that part of me is fulfilled without it). The things I don't miss far outweigh it. I don't miss knowing I have to shoot 69 today just to make a cut, I don't miss the stress of knowing I have to play my best just to make a check, I don't miss grinding out rounds in the pissing rain or howling wind, I don't miss pouring so much of myself into something and getting beat on by guys that are simply better than me, its rougher out there than you would think and I am happy that I moved on.

[JustTheTips]

The concepts are simple. Execution is always the hard part. The tour pro executes 99.9%. Thrill executed at 99.8%. Now those are made up numbers but you get the point. No one can say with a different set of events (teachers, injuries, opportunites,...) if Thrill could have been .1% better.

In your example you are avoiding trouble off the tee (good) but making a more difficult shot later (bad). How to balance that is the fun of course managment

[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1330540494' post='4403745']

Sounds so simple when you put it that way. It's kind of what Thrillhouse said, get it in the hole. But it's obviously not that easy. Is it talent, as Thrillhouse suggested, or working on a few basic things like you said?

Or is it a matter of, for the lack of a better word, stupidity? Read "Radical Golf" which proposes playing tee and approach shots short (5 iron off the tee on a par 5 short) to avoid trouble. Sounds logical, but don't know anyone who purposely does that. Course management says most golfers probably shouldn't hit driver off the tee, but that doesn't happen either. We play this way because we see the pros play on TV so we think that's how golf should be played.
[/quote]

[richard t]

I think Thrill and some others have summed it up very well. If there is still doubt in some minds just do this. Go to a Tournament on Thursday. Crowds are not big. You can get real close. Go to the range and watch-really watch. Then follow a few of them. Ask yourself objectively, do I have all these shots cause the big boys do and they are not doing it for fun. I got to caddy ( read carry the bag) for a club pro friend of mine. I was inside the ropes for 18 with him, a tour pro, and two hackers. (Pro Am). Now my club pro pal can flat play. I mean he's better than scratch. I ask, "Hey, why didn't you do this"? He laughed, says, "watch this guy you'll see. Believe me I saw. It was not even so much what he did with the ball but how effortless he did it. Maybe you have it, who knows, but you better because these guys will eat your lunch and hand you the wrapper. I think part of what entices some people is the effortlessness they seem to have when playing. As a 6 hdcp I want to have a good round. hit most fairways, get good GIRs. I hope to hit some good shots too. I'll try real hard. These guys you'll be playing with aren't trying, they mean to do it on every shot. They don't have much margin of error. The last guy on the money list is still better than 98% of us.
Good Luck. I mean it.

[raytracer]

First of all - my position (I've worked in the field and been around the pro tour for several years, not as a player though) is that professional golf is attainable only by a very very few people with extraordinary skills - if you havent already accomplished much in the game by age 45 you have no chance at all - sorry.

That said, this post really says a lot:
[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1329603371' post='4318595']
People always think golf is an "attainable" dream because the guys who play pro kinda look like us. It seems more human, more of a sport that a normal guy can be among the world's best. I truly believe there are 100x the amount of guys in golf who think "if i just practiced harder i'd have made the tour" then there are guys who think this about other sports

Nobody thinks that about basketball, or football, or track. Nobody thinks "if i just threw 1000 passes a day i'd be Tom Brady", or "if i just dribble a ball everywhere i go i'd be Chris Paul"....Golfers are every bit as talented as their other pro counterparts. Their talent is just not as readily visible as that of a freak like Usain Bolt. That's why everyone thinks they can do it. But the level of coordinated precision and athletic ability required to do what they do is quite substancial.

Malcolm Gladwell's book "outliers" ruined things LOL...a great book, but everyone who reads it leaves thinking that skill is a myth and everything comes down to practice. That is not something that is consistent with even the commonly accepted principles of Darwinism. Some people are just "better" then others at certain skills because of things that have been happening in their lineage for thousands of years.
[/quote]

You don't go on NFL, NBA, or MLB message boards and hear talk from hopefuls about one day making the big leagues - everyone knows it's next to impossible. That's why golf is such a great game! Anybody can step up to a tee box and hit that one 300 yard drive that is every bit as pretty as the one they saw on tv during a tournament, or make that 30 foot birdie bomb, or knock it stiff, or put together a good round or even rounds - enough to make the average human say "Hey, if I can do that then why not the tour if I work harder at it??"
It's a testament to why this is the greatest game ever played. It makes us all [s]delusional[/s] hopeful on some level!

[j_moo]

[quote name='CARDY' timestamp='1330549208' post='4404941']
some good debate on here, Thrill is a wealth of info as always

Having played with top nationally ranked am and mid-am players (running at +3's) and also having played with Nationwide and PGA players .. I can tell you firsthand there is a world of difference

The +3's can go real low but also is more likely to toss in a 74 over 4 rounds. I've seen 62's, 63's and 64's in person from the am's. However, their misses are WAY worse. Also, one part of their game is generally not as polished as it needs to be ie sand play, long irons etc

At a Nationwide event I actually was surprised at the level of ballstriking. It was [b][u]lower[/u][/b] than I expected but these guys score with their games. Sport in many cases is innate talent and the ability to handle stress / pressure / traumatic situations. The prettiest swing and/or the longest hitter does not equal the best golfer (SCORER)

Just heard from a buddy heading over to play in the Honda ... he played Augusta for the first time yesterday .. one of his comments was priceless ... "I need to figure out my leaves for when it gets firm and fast".

Think about that, a whole different mindset. I played with him twice in an event a few years ago. The only thing overly impressive was him inside of 50 yards (always to 4 feet) and putting inside 8 feet. Straight off the tee but not overly long, irons nice but not miles in the air etc etc. Afterwards he was 4 under or so both days but it didn't feel that way during the round. He just never hit one way off line or hit an iron shot into the next zip code. If he needed to birdie a par 5 he did. If he needed a 5 footer for par or a key up and down ... it happened. Pure command over HIS game. I reflected afterward that he knew [b]his[/b] strengths and played to them

A good friend of mine (2 capper) went to a caddy wedding in Texas a few yrs ago and same story. Played with two PGA pros (one of them a winner that year) and said that the guys were solid but not WOW. They were about the same distance off the tee and hit the same irons into most holes. Afterwards, they were 67 or so and he was 74. They were just better in every facet and over 18 holes you are down 8 to 10 shots to these studs

I get the debate side of the OP (who in fairness has v limited experience) but I think he has no real concept of how good these players are ... and unless you play with them personally, at the diff levels, I don't think you can possibly appreciate it.
[/quote]

Thank you for that post. I love that comment from your friend and it really shows the difference in mentality. IMHO, the average golfer hopes to hit the great shot but expects to hit the bad shot, while the pros expect to hit the good shots and hope to not hit too bad of a shot.

Please tell me if I'm wrong but I also think the better players play each hole from hole back to tee. They seem to understand where around the green they can get it up and down and play to those positions all the way back to the tee. Which is very different from the average golfer who thinks about how far he can hit it off the tee.

You are absolutely right about my not having experience with how good these players are. Went to the Northern Trust Open and watched them on the range for hours. The most impressive thing I saw was Robert Garrigus hitting his 3W with the ball teed up like he's hitting a driver. He just launched them over the fence and the tree beyond them. Other than that, nothing really grabbed my attention. It's been said a few times, they are good because they get the ball in the hole faster than most people. Can't really see that unless you are watching them closely.

[j_moo]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1330550314' post='4405099']
[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1330538870' post='4403553']
Would those guys, after being away from the competitive game for 20 year, wonder or get the itch to perhaps try to be a pro? Their lives are set and established and are doing it not because it's a regret, but rather, to give themselves another chance to prove their mettle.

Like you said, competitive golf is not the same, do you not miss it?
[/quote]


You have the odd guy who gets the itch to turn pro, someone like Rod Spittle comes to mind but the thing about guys like that is that the love for the game is still there during their working career and they play a bunch of amateur golf. Allen Doyle was in the same boat. A lot of guys have had their fill after college and have zero desire to play competitive golf ever again, a lot of those guys play 2 or 3 times a year when they have to for corporate reasons and other than that never think about the game. Some guys get the itch and try to play mini tour golf in their 40's but most realize that their best days are behind them pretty quickly and go back to what they are doing before, most guys have made peace with the fact that they are not going to be tour players because most guys who fit into this category know guys who are tour players and have spent enough time around them to a) know they are not at that level and b) to have enough understanding of the lifestyle and the strain it can put on a family to not want to drop everything and run out there. Priorities are big, for a lot of us golf was the most important thing in our lives at 23, by 40 things have shifted in a lot of cases.


Its not that I don't appreciate it, I do because its a kind thing for someone to say, but I often get the comment on here from people that they are impressed that I am willing to say that I simply was not good enough to play golf for a living and moved on with my life. I think that if there were more people with my background who posted on here as much as I do you guys would see that most of us who have spent enough time competing at a high level have figured out how good we are and thats why there is no real desire to get back out there. Whether it was in college or on the mini tours we tried to compete with the best players and figured out that we are not as good as they are, so we moved on, it doesn't mean we don't wish we were good enough to make a million dollars a year playing golf, its that we know we are not that good so we move on with our lives.

Do I miss competitive golf? I miss things about it, I miss hanging out with the boys, I miss performing well and the sense of self satisfaction that comes from that, I miss setting a goal, working towards it, and achieving it (but I have found an outlet for that in other parts of my life so that part of me is fulfilled without it). The things I don't miss far outweigh it. I don't miss knowing I have to shoot 69 today just to make a cut, I don't miss the stress of knowing I have to play my best just to make a check, I don't miss grinding out rounds in the pissing rain or howling wind, I don't miss pouring so much of myself into something and getting beat on by guys that are simply better than me, its rougher out there than you would think and I am happy that I moved on.
[/quote]

Thank you for your comments. It's been quite the education.

Not sure whether I should be encouraged or not. On the one hand, it seems being better is simply, playing better golf. On the other, how well one can play depends on one's talent. I guess one can always learn to play better, but at what point does one hit the talent ceiling. Not that I have dreams to be a pro, but I think all hackers wonder whether we have hit that ceiling? I guess you had a long amateur career to answer that question.

It's funny, your answer is very similar to what most athlete in team sports says after they've retired. I guess college golf is a team so there is more of that camaraderie dimension. Most people go through life without goals, but sports is very specific in its goals. Not that people who don't play sports are not goal oriented but most people i know who do play sports tend to be that way. In some ways, it's almost comforting to have that goal structure.

[Guia]

I will be 73 this year and play to a 9 from the middle tees. I am in very good condition for my age and figure that if they start a senior tour for 90 year olds I might have a shot.

[isaacbm]

to the OP....

Here's another point that you might want to consider. No one on this site has been at the highest level of the game. So when you ask questions to people even with the experience that thrillhouse or myself have, you have to understand that we don't really know the answer. We never made it to the highest level. We might have a better idea than the average 15 handicap. I can tell you how to win a provincial am. I can tell you how I won mini tour events. But I can't tell you what makes Rory Rory or Tiger Tiger.

: I once asked a tour pro what the difference between him and I was. He basically said " I have no idea..I just hope I don't loose it." It's really hard to put your finger on it because, like some others said in this thread (MTLJEFF) , golfers just look like the rest of us. They don't look like super athletes. Because they look the same, people think they are the same. They are simply different.

I got within 2 shots and I felt like I was playing a different game still.

Most of the PGA tour pros I've know personally would look at a thread like this and say to themselves " what the hell is the big deal? what's the debate? I just look at my target and hit it there. why is this so hard for you guys?" LOL!

[j_moo]

[quote name='JustTheTips' timestamp='1330553341' post='4405487']
The concepts are simple. Execution is always the hard part. The tour pro executes 99.9%. Thrill executed at 99.8%. Now those are made up numbers but you get the point. No one can say with a different set of events (teachers, injuries, opportunites,...) if Thrill could have been .1% better.

In your example you are avoiding trouble off the tee (good) but making a more difficult shot later (bad). How to balance that is the fun of course managment

[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1330540494' post='4403745']
Sounds so simple when you put it that way. It's kind of what Thrillhouse said, get it in the hole. But it's obviously not that easy. Is it talent, as Thrillhouse suggested, or working on a few basic things like you said?

Or is it a matter of, for the lack of a better word, stupidity? Read "Radical Golf" which proposes playing tee and approach shots short (5 iron off the tee on a par 5 short) to avoid trouble. Sounds logical, but don't know anyone who purposely does that. Course management says most golfers probably shouldn't hit driver off the tee, but that doesn't happen either. We play this way because we see the pros play on TV so we think that's how golf should be played.
[/quote]
[/quote]

The book talks about a free throw shot, which is usually 40-100 yd wedge shot. It's a shot you own. If the average golfer can play from the tee to that shot and have a good free throw shot, it's not a stretch to think that golfer can play high 70, low 80 golf. Especially if he has a good putter and makes a few.

IMHO, this is not much different than what the pros do with their short game. They make sure all those shots around the greens are free throws so they can go for the pin. And, like all of us, hope to make a few putts. Actually, I think the pros also make some of those putts free throws, which makes those shots around the greens easier, and so on all the way back to the tee.

[j_moo]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1330584495' post='4409143']
to the OP....

Here's another point that you might want to consider. No one on this site has been at the highest level of the game. So when you ask questions to people even with the experience that thrillhouse or myself have, you have to understand that we don't really know the answer. We never made it to the highest level. We might have a better idea than the average 15 handicap. I can tell you how to win a provincial am. I can tell you how I won mini tour events. But I can't tell you what makes Rory Rory or Tiger Tiger.

: I once asked a tour pro what the difference between him and I was. He basically said " I have no idea..I just hope I don't loose it." It's really hard to put your finger on it because, like some others said in this thread (MTLJEFF) , golfers just look like the rest of us. They don't look like super athletes. Because they look the same, people think they are the same. They are simply different.

I got within 2 shots and I felt like I was playing a different game still.

Most of the PGA tour pros I've know personally would look at a thread like this and say to themselves " what the hell is the big deal? what's the debate? I just look at my target and hit it there. why is this so hard for you guys?" LOL!
[/quote]

I would love to hear about how you won mini tour event! Hoping perhaps some of it will rub off on all of us.

I've played pool with a guy who could be a shark and that experience gave me an understanding why the people on TV are pros. It's a skill of controlling the cue ball and positioning it in the proper spots so that the next 2 shots can be made with minimal cue ball manipulation. The pros see the entire rack in their head and just executes. Perhaps that also applies in golf.

[JustTheTips]

Pros don't want free throws (80-90%). They want dunks (99% shots). Personally I find hitting the 5 iron off the turf (with what ever random lie you have) to be harder than hitting a driver/3 wood off a tee on a level tee box. So for me 5 iron 5 iron (~380 yards) is harder than driver +9 iron ( also about 380 yards) with the obvious exceptions of holes where the landing area for the driver is tough or there is no room to land my common miss. YMMV
[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1330584855' post='4409159']


The book talks about a free throw shot, which is usually 40-100 yd wedge shot. It's a shot you own. If the average golfer can play from the tee to that shot and have a good free throw shot, it's not a stretch to think that golfer can play high 70, low 80 golf. Especially if he has a good putter and makes a few.

IMHO, this is not much different than what the pros do with their short game. They make sure all those shots around the greens are free throws so they can go for the pin. And, like all of us, hope to make a few putts. Actually, I think the pros also make some of those putts free throws, which makes those shots around the greens easier, and so on all the way back to the tee.
[/quote]

[j_moo]

[quote name='JustTheTips' timestamp='1330619405' post='4410985']
Pros don't want free throws (80-90%). They want dunks (99% shots). Personally I find hitting the 5 iron off the turf (with what ever random lie you have) to be harder than hitting a driver/3 wood off a tee

on a level tee box. So for me 5 iron 5 iron (~380 yards) is harder than driver +9 iron ( also about 380 yards) with the obvious exceptions of holes where the landing area for the driver is tough or there is no room to land my common miss. YMMV
[quote name='j_moo' timestamp='1330584855' post='4409159']
The book talks about a free throw shot, which is usually 40-100 yd wedge shot. It's a shot you own. If the average golfer can play from the tee to that shot and have a good free throw shot, it's not a stretch to think that golfer can play high 70, low 80 golf. Especially if he has a good putter and makes a few.

IMHO, this is not much different than what the pros do with their short game. They make sure all those shots around the greens are free throws so they can go for the pin. And, like all of us, hope to make a few putts. Actually, I think the pros also make some of those putts free throws, which makes those shots around the greens easier, and so on all the way back to the tee.
[/quote]
[/quote]


I agree with you. Although the book is for the average golfer where 80-90% is pretty good. The book also makes the assumption woods/drivers are much, much harder to hit than 5I, which is reasonable for an average golfer. So even if the average golfer only hits the 5I 160yards, that's 320 yards and leaves a reasonalbe 3rd for most par 4s without all the practice and stress of having to hit driver/woods.

Like you, I think it's easier to hit driver and short iron so that's what I've always done, as every golfer I know. But that puts pressure on the driver being good, where as the other approach, there's only stress on the wedge shot. It's a much easier shot to execute.