Shoulder Plane back and through

[Pinsplitter59]

Same or not same

Turn Turn Turn (To every swing there is a reason). sorry Pete Seeger.
there is quite a bit of talk about the shoulder turn being on the same plane back and through.
Tom Watson said that his revelation in 1994.
i wonder about the truth of it.
maybe its just feel versus real when the golfer had a forward rotation so far under and steep that the change just feels like its then on the same plane.
Hogan did describe the forward swing plane as being more to the right of target and angled up a bit.
I have been thinking and practicing a different right shoulder rotation for the downswing.
based on the idea of doing what is necessary to get the hands back to impact where they were at address.
so for me it is definitely more "around" and more like the backswing shoulder turn,
but i dont think its the "same".
another thing i have never been able to comprehend is how Garcia, A. Quiros and Hogan of course get back to that impact position where the hands are almost exactly where they were at address, the left arm is quite vertical and the back has become quite bowed over.
my guess now is that is all about how you turn that right shoulder down and around for the downswing.
drew some lines on Hogan and Gary Woodland, and they look remarkably similar and certainly not the same back and through.
glad i won't be wasting days trying to make it the same.

[IH82BOGEY]

Look at the super slo mo action from the Coleman video of Mr. Hogan doing the concentration drill from face on. I think its on the Martinez channel. In my opinion, it is the best evidence of what Mr. Hogan's intentions really were. Note how he sets up with a fair amount of rearward tilt at address (sometimes referred to secondary tilt). In my opinion, he seems to be intentionally turining his shoulders 90 degrees to this preset secondary tilt (not as noticable from down the line). When he turns the shoulders on this plane, the resultant swing plane is as described in 5 lessons shifted out to the right. Also note in his slo mo practice routine how he immediately and noticeably starts the hips turning to initiate the downswing (not a left bump). This is possible because of the setup of secondary tilt at address with center of gravity still forward (no bump needed). When he swings at live speed there is a shift forward of the hips but I believe it is his own weight pulling him through the shot from his rotational effort. To me, Mr. Hogan is making a consistent shoulder plane movement, just not in relation to the forward inclination as seen down the line. The consistency is observed relative to the secondary axis from face on. His angles do change with the length of the club but the overall shape does not (his ball position is constant).

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1331821681' post='4512759']
Turn Turn Turn (To every swing there is a reason). sorry Pete Seeger.
there is quite a bit of talk about the shoulder turn being on the same plane back and through.
Tom Watson said that his revelation in 1994.
i wonder about the truth of it.
maybe its just feel versus real when the golfer had a forward rotation so far under and steep that the change just feels like its then on the same plane.
Hogan did describe the forward swing plane as being more to the right of target and angled up a bit.
I have been thinking and practicing a different right shoulder rotation for the downswing.
based on the idea of doing what is necessary to get the hands back to impact where they were at address.
so for me it is definitely more "around" and more like the backswing shoulder turn,
but i dont think its the "same".
another thing i have never been able to comprehend is how Garcia, A. Quiros and Hogan of course get back to that impact position where the hands are almost exactly where they were at address, the left arm is quite vertical and the back has become quite bowed over.
my guess now is that is all about how you turn that right shoulder down and around for the downswing.
drew some lines on Hogan and Gary Woodland, and they look remarkably similar and certainly not the same back and through.
glad i won't be wasting days trying to make it the same.
[attachment=1071361:Hogan_shoulder_plane.jpg]
[/quote]

Look at the images of Hogan. If you try to draw a line over BOTH his L and R shoulders, it would seem that the shoulder line or plane is way different. However, of you just look at the shoulder inclination of the shoulder under his head (L shoulder in BS, R shoulder in DS), you will see that they're almost exactly the same. IMO the only reason why the overall shoulder plane is different is because in the BS, shoulder obove his head (R shoulder) can't go higher because the right side (R hip/waist-torso) is in flexion/bend. in DS/impact on the other hand, the shoulder above his head (L shoulder) can be higher (thus the more upright overall shoulder plane) because his left side (L hip/waist-torso) is already in extension/straightened, plus his left leg is already vertical unlike in BS the right leg is tilted. So, naturally, the R shoulder is lower in BS compared to the L shoulder at impact and follow-thru.