How to talk about golf

[Aithos]

[quote name='youngstructural' timestamp='1336062793' post='4840268']
[quote name='Rock Chalk Jayhawk' timestamp='1336062286' post='4840174']

You stated you had a good ballstriking round but shout a 46. I am claiming you did not have a good ballstriking day. There is a difference between iron play and ballstriking. To be a broken record, ballstriking includes all play up to the green (everything minus short game). Ball striking also includes knowing the proper shot to hit, when to hit it, and executing it. Overshooting your target is not good ballstriking. Hitting the ball solid is not good ballstriking.
[/quote]


Symantics. Either way, I read this thread to say, Aithos is a strong iron player, and thus has irons that either suit his game, and/or provide the feel / response he prefers. Why is this an issue for anyone? Who actually gives two flying F**cks what anyone plays, does, says or writes on an internet forum?

I'm inclined to belive what Aithos says beause of his candor, and willingness to desribe in great detail his game. I'm glad you like your irons! Ignore the haters. At the end of the day, its the internet, [i]who actually cares? [/i]
[/quote]

Thank you. You give me a little hope that some people understand what I'm trying to get across. I am just trying to make a point and have people understand my meaning, not argue over an ambiguously defined word that means different things to different people...

[kg92lefty]

[quote name='Rock Chalk Jayhawk' timestamp='1336063056' post='4840302']
I never said you have to hit the ball solidly to be a good ballstriker. I am trying to explain my definition of good ballstriking. I am not arguing over semantics. You and I have a fundamental disagreement on what good ballstriking is, which is fine. To be a good ballstriker, you must be able to consistently produce the shot you intended. As such, overshooting the green, missing the green from less than ideal lies, poor driving are NOT characteristics of good ballstriking.
[/quote]

Exactly. solid contact is the start to good ballstriking, but missing greens, missing fairways, losing drives mean you are not a good ballstriker.
Your iron play may be the strength of your game or you may be a good ballstriker FOR A 17, but in the big picture of things you are not.
You have said throughout this thread you are a good ballstriker, quote -> "people say I play irons above my level (which I dont)" "I dont think like a 17, i dont hit like a 17, i dont play like a 17." Im sorry but you think like a 17 if you pull the wrong club to overshoot the green, you hit like a 17 if you hit no greens and shoot 46.

I would be willing to agree with you that your iron play is your strength but it is not by any means good (in the big picture), good is hitting above 2/3s of fairways and greens.

[harbor17]

[quote name='Aithos' timestamp='1336062573' post='4840218']
Don't forget the fact that just because the result isn't great the strike can still be good. Every shot that goes right isn't poorly struck, maybe my path is bad. I don't attribute my failings as a golfer to my equipment. I need to work on my swing and put in time to improve. People who think equipment is the path to becoming a better golfer are chumps.
[/quote]


Dude, you shouldnt be playing blades....

[MelloYello]

[quote name='harbor17' timestamp='1336070097' post='4841436']
[quote name='Aithos' timestamp='1336062573' post='4840218']
Don't forget the fact that just because the result isn't great the strike can still be good. Every shot that goes right isn't poorly struck, maybe my path is bad. I don't attribute my failings as a golfer to my equipment. I need to work on my swing and put in time to improve. People who think equipment is the path to becoming a better golfer are chumps.
[/quote]


Dude, you shouldnt be playing blades....
[/quote]

1.) What do you value more, your own reputation or his choice of equipment?

2.) If you [i]are[/i] correct, would you not agree that he wouldn't take ownership over his decision until he faces it himself?

3.) If you [i]are[/i] correct and after hearing you changes clubs he'll have done so not for himself but for your pressure/guilt. He would forever be slanted [i]against[/i] CBs and hence blame [i]you[/i] when he inevitably found them 'unfit' for his game.

4.) A hobbyist will enjoy the fruits of his evolution more if he himself spurs it. Let him succeed/fail on his own.


The only reason I post this is because I see both of you as wasting your time. I went through the same thing and while I willingly admitted I didn't justify blades it was not pressure or guilt but rather simply the positive effects of trying another set that eventually changed my view. It was experience in other words.

Also, I feel that I [i]found[/i] my answer and for that it was a more rewarding process. I value that for the OP as much as anything. It will be a great day when he makes the switch for the right reason. A sad one though when he caves into external pressure.

Your argument only serves to anger the both of you; intolerance against masochism.

[Aithos]

[quote name='kg92lefty' timestamp='1336069995' post='4841424']
[quote name='Rock Chalk Jayhawk' timestamp='1336063056' post='4840302']
I never said you have to hit the ball solidly to be a good ballstriker. I am trying to explain my definition of good ballstriking. I am not arguing over semantics. You and I have a fundamental disagreement on what good ballstriking is, which is fine. To be a good ballstriker, you must be able to consistently produce the shot you intended. As such, overshooting the green, missing the green from less than ideal lies, poor driving are NOT characteristics of good ballstriking.
[/quote]

Exactly. solid contact is the start to good ballstriking, but missing greens, missing fairways, losing drives mean you are not a good ballstriker.
Your iron play may be the strength of your game or you may be a good ballstriker FOR A 17, but in the big picture of things you are not.
You have said throughout this thread you are a good ballstriker, quote -> "people say I play irons above my level (which I dont)" "I dont think like a 17, i dont hit like a 17, i dont play like a 17." Im sorry but you think like a 17 if you pull the wrong club to overshoot the green, you hit like a 17 if you hit no greens and shoot 46.

I would be willing to agree with you that your iron play is your strength but it is not by any means good (in the big picture), good is hitting above 2/3s of fairways and greens.
[/quote]

I think this is the most intelligent thing I've heard you say, and I don't disagree with you. What you quoted above was my attempt to explain the quality of contact I make with the ball. Maybe I was misusing the term ballstriking at other points. But the kind of contact I make with the club is what determines whether or not I can or should be playing blades. Ballstriking in that context doesn't even come into play.

The whole crux of your and everyone else's argument that a 17 shouldn't play blades relies on the assumption a 17 can't make consistent contact with the club sufficient to produce decent shots that would somehow be *better* with a GI iron. It's a fine line and again I'll tell you that my contact with the clubface isn't the issue. I hit these clubs solidly, with that being said I still have a LONG way to go. But GI irons are not my short term or long term solution to improvement and that is all I care about.

If you're willing to accept that, then we don't have any issue. I'll give you the fact MOST 17s don't make solid contact consistently and shouldn't play blades, but I've said that before and people gloss over it. I'm not an miraculous mythical player, I'm a formerly decent player (not great) getting back into the game after many years of health and financial issues.

I am athletically talented, competetive and driven. I will be successful with these clubs and if 5 years from now I change my mind then I'll do it on m own. I'll never again feel pressure from an outside source about my golf game, I caved last time and ended up stuck with a set I hated for 7 years because I was too poor to replace it...

[irishiain]

Just play whatever you want, who gives a s**t if you're a 17? It's your game, if you enjoy it more by using blades then just go with it.

[nbg352]

[quote name='irishiain' timestamp='1336072901' post='4841832']
Just play whatever you want, who gives a s**t if you're a 17? It's your game, if you enjoy it more by using blades then just go with it.
[/quote]


Yeah, baby!
+1

[TexasAg]

[quote name='youngstructural' timestamp='1336062793' post='4840268']
Symantics. Either way, I read this thread to say, Aithos is a strong iron player, and thus has irons that either suit his game, and/or provide the feel / response he prefers. Why is this an issue for anyone? Who actually gives two flying F**cks what anyone plays, does, says or writes on an internet forum?

I'm inclined to belive what Aithos says beause of his candor, and willingness to desribe in great detail his game. I'm glad you like your irons! Ignore the haters. At the end of the day, its the internet, [i]who actually cares? [/i]
[/quote]

In the scorecard he posted on the other thread, he was +8 on the par 3's while I believe averaging less than 2 putts per green. That doesn't "strike" me as a result i would expect from a strong iron player.

Regardless, Aithos, you have way too much tied up in what people on this website think about you and your golf game. If you're happy, then what does any of this matter? If you're done with this thread, then be done with it and quit posting to it.

[bananapel]

[quote name='Aithos' timestamp='1336072307' post='4841768']
I will be successful with these clubs and if 5 years from now I change my mind then I'll do it on m own. I'll never again feel pressure from an outside source about my golf game, I caved last time and ended up stuck with a set I hated for [u]7 years because I was too poor to replace it.[/u]..
[/quote]

I'm sorry this is away from the subject but your rationale in almost every response of why you play blades is what justifies this specific reply. I doubt you are so poor that you can't afford to buy different clubs less than 7 years. I clicked your witb link and every single item in your bag is [b]brand new[/b] and top of the line. If you were truly that poor you would buy used clubs. You had to drop at least 2000 on those clubs when you could have bought them used for probably 50-60% of that. A fitting cost 100 bucks and you can pick up good used sets on here for less than 400 easy. Not to mention you could have sold those clubs you hated so much....I tried 3 different drivers last year and now they are all gone bc I sold them.


I agree if you hit the ball in the center every time then it doesn't matter what you play bc GI irons are there for mishits, to get the ball higher, etc, etc. Things just don't make sense when you shoot high 40s and low 50s. Further, when you say the back nine is where you warm up and that's why you shoot horrible on the front. It takes me 5 golf balls to warm up and make a turn from getting out of bed after a nap. Do I hit more balls...yes; however, it's not to loosen myself up at that point. If you hit the ball so solidly how can you shoot so high? It doesn't make sense to me or a lot of others and I think that's why people are doubting you and calling you out.

First, it was why your handicap is not a 17 but lower bc the usga counts all of your scores which was dispelled by how the usga gives a handicap, then it was bc you are too poor to buy clubs more than 1x every 7 years, then it's bc the front nine is to warm up, then it's bc you hit the ball solidly so GI irons don't matter over blades. At the end of day it's just excuses and you are a 17 handicap and I'm a +. But hey, if you want to live in disbelief that you are better than you are then so be it. Most people are here to help and the bullish*t is cut right through bc 99% of people don't know each other so opinions are raw and unfiltered...which, IMO is better bc you get straight answers. I hope you get better and the blades do indeed help you out bc at this point it's like beating a dead horse.

[Pinsplitter59]

to quote Bob Dylan..
"How does it FEEL?"
you know a lot of us old dudes hang around the classic clubs forums for a reason.
i would say that a lot of younger golfers in these forums have never even tried to hit some better clubs.
its the same at my own club, even single figure players have only ever experienced cavity back improvement irons.
i have had a few instances of GI players trying my MP32's for example or a Hogan Apex Plus and realizing that they have been sold a lot of hype and a very ordinary golf club.
even recently a female beginner golfer, handicap 32 but showing a lot of potential talent, had a set of graphite shafted GI somethings,
i told her graphite shafts should never be used in irons and asked her to try my MP32 9 iron with a DG S300 shaft.
that in theory is just ridiculous.
after hitting ten shots she was hitting it really quite well and she said she loved the way she could feel the golf club.
that goes against all theory on what type of club suits what type of player.

recently i hit some of the new Ping models, the GI thing was awful, the forged pro model was barely acceptable.
modern "blades" are so much better than they were 30-50 years ago in terms of ease of hitting.
you have to try a lot of different clubs to find what you like.
i used to really like my Cleveland CG2 irons, since i have gone to Mizuno i think they are clunky and dull.
then funnily enough my almost ancient Tommy Armour 845 irons ( yes a cavity back) are still a reasonable golf club.
yet i never really like the Ping Eye 2's.

here in Aus years ago probably more than half the young pros would use Ping clubs because if they happened to win any tournament Ping would pay them some money.
so a lot of these guys might never have played with a blade style club ever, well there's money at stake.
i fell for the GI thing back in the '70's, got really excited and bought the Wilson LT 1200 heel-toe weighted whiz bang new theory irons.
god they were ordinary thinking back now, and i think it will be the same for the current GI irons.
and please don't start me on the horrors of hybrids, just go out and get yourself a good persimmon 4 wood the you'll know you been conned.

i do honestly believe that a better club will make you a better player.
so rather than buy a club to suit your (flawed) swing you should find a swing to suit a better club.
if you keep using GI style irons you will not improve as readily as if you were using a club that talks to you.

there are clubs i would not recommend to a higher handicap player, like the Hogan Apex, Golden Ram Tour Grind, MacGregor VIP Tourney etc.
but i would recommend clubs like the Hogan Apex Plus or Edge or FTX and certainly the Mizuno MP32 and probably other Mizuno's i haven't tried.
and probably lots of other clubs i have never tried.

as the OP suggested honesty is so important, self-deception in golf is way too common.
i read a lot of posts where a guy says ''yadda yadda yadda then suddenly i was really compressing the ball incredibly etc yadda yadda......"
this is unbelievably meaningless, how was he hitting it before? for him it might be amazing for me it might be very ordinary.
its very easy to hear when a ball is struck properly, i can tell you if it came of the heel or toe just by listening.
i do believe that a lot of golfers in this forum have probably never struck a ball purely.
that is the problem, their reference point is only a third way up the mountain.

a mate (not a good player) had a hole in one some time ago, it was a skinny shot going low, just hitting the front of the green and rolling up 30 feet into the hole,
back in the club house he was telling people it was a well struck shot as i gagged on my tongue.
i see a lot of low handicap and scratch players who hit the ball really "good" but not what i would call "really well".
my reference point for really well would be Greg Norman because i used to see him play up close a lot in the '80's.
so before you tell me how good you hit your driver, can you kick up a bit of turf with your heel, place a ball on on it,
take your persimmon driver and nail it low and straight dead down the middle into a fair breeeze?

with a well struck shot the ball will appear to go out with "thrust" on a straight line for some distance then as it decelerates it will begin to rise as the backspin hits the air.
it appears that way, in physical fact it is probably not exactly like that.
i rarely see a ball struck like that by any amateur, the modern thinking seems to be to "push" the ball with a high parabola shape, the initial trajectory is very high and the ball speed seems to be the same for whole duration of its flight.
i was watching Robert Allenby practice with his driver at the Presidents' Cup, yes it was perfectly acceptable, a very high floating ball going pretty straight for 280-290 yards or so and falling to ground with little roll.
but so dull!!
watching the final round of the Open Championship 1977,Nicklaus and Watson paired, about 8 shots clear of all the others, Watson birdies 17 to go 1 shot ahead then,
plays safe off the 18th tee with 1 iron....heeheee you gotta love it, most pros nowadays have never hit a 1 iron and would be scared to try.

i have a lot of opinions yes sorry, and i am an ordinary ball striker mostly, now 60 years old and struggling 4 handicap,
but you do learn a few things along the way.

[TexasAg]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1336082182' post='4842930']

with a well struck shot the ball will appear to go out with "thrust" on a straight line for some distance then as it decelerates it will begin to rise as the backspin hits the air.
it appears that way, in physical fact it is probably not exactly like that.
i rarely see a ball struck like that by any amateur, the modern thinking seems to be to "push" the ball with a high parabola shape, the initial trajectory is very high and the ball speed seems to be the same for whole duration of its flight.
i was watching Robert Allenby practice with his driver at the Presidents' Cup, yes it was perfectly acceptable, a very high floating ball going pretty straight for 280-290 yards or so and falling to ground with little roll.
but so dull!!

[/quote]

A) Today's golf balls are very different than those of 40 years ago. B) We now know quite a bit more about how to maximize distance.

You put those two together and that's why you don't see the "low launch, high spin, rising tee shot" anymore. If you watched Norman hit balls today, I'm sure you'd see the high launch, low spin, parabola shaped tee shot that everybody hits these days.

[Sean2]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1336020234' post='4837700']


Professionals have noses, most wrxers have noses, therefore most wrxers could be professionals.

If you have a nose you can play blades. Fact.
[/quote]
Thank you for acknowledging my post Thrill. Nobody "nose" the truth like you do. ;-)

By the way, if a=b, and b=c, then a=c. Except when it doesn't.

[KYMAR]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1336082182' post='4842930']
to quote Bob Dylan..
"How does it FEEL?"
you know a lot of us old dudes hang around the classic clubs forums for a reason.
i would say that a lot of younger golfers in these forums have never even tried to hit some better clubs.
its the same at my own club, even single figure players have only ever experienced cavity back improvement irons.
i have had a few instances of GI players trying my MP32's for example or a Hogan Apex Plus and realizing that they have been sold a lot of hype and a very ordinary golf club.
even recently a female beginner golfer, handicap 32 but showing a lot of potential talent, had a set of graphite shafted GI somethings,
i told her graphite shafts should never be used in irons and asked her to try my MP32 9 iron with a DG S300 shaft.
that in theory is just ridiculous.
after hitting ten shots she was hitting it really quite well and she said she loved the way she could feel the golf club.
that goes against all theory on what type of club suits what type of player.

recently i hit some of the new Ping models, the GI thing was awful, the forged pro model was barely acceptable.
modern "blades" are so much better than they were 30-50 years ago in terms of ease of hitting.
you have to try a lot of different clubs to find what you like.
i used to really like my Cleveland CG2 irons, since i have gone to Mizuno i think they are clunky and dull.
then funnily enough my almost ancient Tommy Armour 845 irons ( yes a cavity back) are still a reasonable golf club.
yet i never really like the Ping Eye 2's.

here in Aus years ago probably more than half the young pros would use Ping clubs because if they happened to win any tournament Ping would pay them some money.
so a lot of these guys might never have played with a blade style club ever, well there's money at stake.
i fell for the GI thing back in the '70's, got really excited and bought the Wilson LT 1200 heel-toe weighted whiz bang new theory irons.
god they were ordinary thinking back now, and i think it will be the same for the current GI irons.
and please don't start me on the horrors of hybrids, just go out and get yourself a good persimmon 4 wood the you'll know you been conned.

i do honestly believe that a better club will make you a better player.
so rather than buy a club to suit your (flawed) swing you should find a swing to suit a better club.
if you keep using GI style irons[b] you will not improve as readily as if you were using a club that talks to you.[/b]

there are clubs i would not recommend to a higher handicap player, like the Hogan Apex, Golden Ram Tour Grind, MacGregor VIP Tourney etc.
but i would recommend clubs like the Hogan Apex Plus or Edge or FTX and certainly the Mizuno MP32 and probably other Mizuno's i haven't tried.
and probably lots of other clubs i have never tried.

as the OP suggested honesty is so important, self-deception in golf is way too common.
i read a lot of posts where a guy says ''yadda yadda yadda then suddenly i was really compressing the ball incredibly etc yadda yadda......"
this is unbelievably meaningless, how was he hitting it before? for him it might be amazing for me it might be very ordinary.
its very easy to hear when a ball is struck properly, i can tell you if it came of the heel or toe just by listening.
i do believe that a lot of golfers in this forum have probably never struck a ball purely.
that is the problem, their reference point is only a third way up the mountain.

a mate (not a good player) had a hole in one some time ago, it was a skinny shot going low, just hitting the front of the green and rolling up 30 feet into the hole,
back in the club house he was telling people it was a well struck shot as i gagged on my tongue.
i see a lot of low handicap and scratch players who hit the ball really "good" but not what i would call "really well".
my reference point for really well would be Greg Norman because i used to see him play up close a lot in the '80's.
so before you tell me how good you hit your driver, can you kick up a bit of turf with your heel, place a ball on on it,
take your persimmon driver and nail it low and straight dead down the middle into a fair breeeze?

with a well struck shot the ball will appear to go out with "thrust" on a straight line for some distance then as it decelerates it will begin to rise as the backspin hits the air.
it appears that way, in physical fact it is probably not exactly like that.
i rarely see a ball struck like that by any amateur, the modern thinking seems to be to "push" the ball with a high parabola shape, the initial trajectory is very high and the ball speed seems to be the same for whole duration of its flight.
i was watching Robert Allenby practice with his driver at the Presidents' Cup, yes it was perfectly acceptable, a very high floating ball going pretty straight for 280-290 yards or so and falling to ground with little roll.
but so dull!!
watching the final round of the Open Championship 1977,Nicklaus and Watson paired, about 8 shots clear of all the others, Watson birdies 17 to go 1 shot ahead then,
plays safe off the 18th tee with 1 iron....heeheee you gotta love it, most pros nowadays have never hit a 1 iron and would be scared to try.

i have a lot of opinions yes sorry, and i am an ordinary ball striker mostly, now 60 years old and struggling 4 handicap,
but you do learn a few things along the way.
[/quote]

Wow.

Hey i want some of these talking golf clubs! Those sound like they would make rounds I play as a single much less lonely.

[Pinsplitter59]

yes i do know that.
what i said about ball flight for a well struck shot applies now as much as before,
balata balls of course did it even more.
but i guess you need a club that will allow it to happen, it won't happen with a Ping etc.
how to maximize distance and make the ball go straight are the twin diseases of modern golf design and theory.

combined with the marketing strategy to sell new things all the time by promising that we the manufacturers will do it for you,
you don't have to do anything, just buy our stuff and you will play better.

i really can't imagine where it will all end.
the lawmakers should really be grasping the nettle now and firmly,
the broomstick putter slipped in under the radar, drivers sizes and grooves are being addressed thankfully though belatedly.
perhaps graphite shafts should never have been allowed, then the whole development of drivers, "woods" and hybrids would have been very different.

[KYMAR]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1336086046' post='4843252']
yes i do know that.
what i said about ball flight for a well struck shot applies now as much as before,
balata balls of course did it even more.
but i guess you need a club that will allow it to happen, it won't happen with a Ping etc.
[b]how to maximize distance and make the ball go straight are the twin diseases of modern golf design and theory.
[/b]
combined with the marketing strategy to sell new things all the time by promising that we the manufacturers will do it for you,
you don't have to do anything, just buy our stuff and you will play better.

i really can't imagine where it will all end.
the lawmakers should really be grasping the nettle now and firmly,
the broomstick putter slipped in under the radar, drivers sizes and grooves are being addressed thankfully though belatedly.
perhaps graphite shafts should never have been allowed, then the whole development of drivers, "woods" and hybrids would have been very different.
[/quote]

Seriously! This whole "hit it straight and far" thing these golf companies are trying to pull is ridiculous! How I long for the days when everyone hit it crooked and short. When i could talk a shot over with my 5 [s]butter knife[/s] iron and then hit it, getting all kinds of sandy divot all over my woolen plus 4's. So much more "pure" back then.

[KYMAR]

Come on Aithos buddy, You haven't told us anything new in your last several posts and each time say "we don't know you": Well you intro'd yourself and spoke about your game completely on your terms. Also, the people who are responding to you with information that most people would consider valuable keep getting dismissed with your comments like "you don't get it". You have also started backing off of your claims about being a good ball striker. Again, you are engaging in a debate that MOST people on a forum will be on the other side of. I am not sure what you expect people's reaction to be when you insist on repeating things that you already know what the reaction will be. You are not going to convince anyone that a 17 (if thats even a real HC which seems to also be in question) should play blades if they have enough experience and knowledge to refute that. You are on and island here, screaming about how you don't need a "F******** GI iron" and how people don't know you. OK then, just keep it to yourself because frankly man, the more you post, the worse you look. Just let this thread die, play whatever iron you want, and stop trying to change the minds of people who offer a counter view based on engineering and design, and not opinion filled statements about "feel" and convince people that MP-69's are "very forgiving" . Just let it go.

EDIT: Oh, I see you deleted your rant/post. probably a very good idea,

[Aithos]

[quote name='bananapel' timestamp='1336081274' post='4842832']


I'm sorry this is away from the subject but your rationale in almost every response of why you play blades is what justifies this specific reply. I doubt you are so poor that you can't afford to buy different clubs less than 7 years. I clicked your witb link and every single item in your bag is [b]brand new[/b] and top of the line. If you were truly that poor you would buy used clubs. You had to drop at least 2000 on those clubs when you could have bought them used for probably 50-60% of that. A fitting cost 100 bucks and you can pick up good used sets on here for less than 400 easy. Not to mention you could have sold those clubs you hated so much....I tried 3 different drivers last year and now they are all gone bc I sold them.


I agree if you hit the ball in the center every time then it doesn't matter what you play bc GI irons are there for mishits, to get the ball higher, etc, etc. Things just don't make sense when you shoot high 40s and low 50s. Further, when you say the back nine is where you warm up and that's why you shoot horrible on the front. It takes me 5 golf balls to warm up and make a turn from getting out of bed after a nap. Do I hit more balls...yes; however, it's not to loosen myself up at that point. If you hit the ball so solidly how can you shoot so high? It doesn't make sense to me or a lot of others and I think that's why people are doubting you and calling you out.

First, it was why your handicap is not a 17 but lower bc the usga counts all of your scores which was dispelled by how the usga gives a handicap, then it was bc you are too poor to buy clubs more than 1x every 7 years, then it's bc the front nine is to warm up, then it's bc you hit the ball solidly so GI irons don't matter over blades. At the end of day it's just excuses and you are a 17 handicap and I'm a +. But hey, if you want to live in disbelief that you are better than you are then so be it. Most people are here to help and the bullish*t is cut right through bc 99% of people don't know each other so opinions are raw and unfiltered...which, IMO is better bc you get straight answers. I hope you get better and the blades do indeed help you out bc at this point it's like beating a dead horse.
[/quote]


I had a big post responding to this, I deleted it. You aren't worth my time.

None of what you're saying has anything to do with what I said or what I meant. If you honestly believe everything you said in that post then I feel bad for you. Feel free to keep posting, by the time you figure out what I've been trying to say I'll have long since gotten better than 17...

[Sean2]

I don't know if this helps.

From Brent Kelly at Golf About.com

[b]Definition[/b]: Most simply put, "ball striking" is just a reference to the full swing. A golfer who is said to be a great ballstriker is one who excels at the full swing.

A little more in-depth, ball striking refers to a golfer's ability to put the clubface on the ball at impact in the desired manner, time after time, and with great command. When you hear that this or that golfer is a great ballstriker, there is also the implication that the golfer can make the ball do what he or she wants - that the golfer possesses a great ability to "work the ball" (producing the desired amount of fade or draw, for example). Which goes back to the above: put the clubface on the ball at impact in the desired manner, time after time, and with great command.

Ben Hogan and Lee Trevino are often offered up as examples of the greatest ballstrikers because they were highly gifted at the full swing shots - they had extraordinary consistency in their swings, and were able, with great precision, to make the ball go where they wanted it to go.
[b]
Ball striking is also a statistical category tracked by professional golf tours[/b] that is a measure of a golfer's combined abilities in driving and hitting greens. To produce its Ball Striking rankings, the PGA Tour combines a player's ranking in Total Driving and Greens in Regulation. For example, Player A ranks 17th in Total Driving and first in GIR. Add those two numbers together for a value of 18. If that's the lowest such value, then Player A is No. 1 in Ball Striking.

http://golf.about.com/od/golfterms/g/ball_striking.htm

[Aithos]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1336099536' post='4844776']
Come on Aithos buddy, You haven't told us anything new in your last several posts and each time say "we don't know you": Well you intro'd yourself and spoke about your game completely on your terms. Also, the people who are responding to you with information that most people would consider valuable keep getting dismissed with your comments like "you don't get it". You have also started backing off of your claims about being a good ball striker. Again, you are engaging in a debate that MOST people on a forum will be on the other side of. I am not sure what you expect people's reaction to be when you insist on repeating things that you already know what the reaction will be. You are not going to convince anyone that a 17 (if thats even a real HC which seems to also be in question) should play blades if they have enough experience and knowledge to refute that. You are on and island here, screaming about how you don't need a "F******** GI iron" and how people don't know you. OK then, just keep it to yourself because frankly man, the more you post, the worse you look. Just let this thread die, play whatever iron you want, and stop trying to change the minds of people who offer a counter view based on engineering and design, and not opinion filled statements about "feel" and convince people that MP-69's are "very forgiving" . Just let it go.

EDIT: Oh, I see you deleted your rant/post. probably a very good idea,
[/quote]

You're joking right? I have been completely honest and forthcoming about my game. Go look at my progress thread [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/620662-aithos-golf-progress-thread/"]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/620662-aithos-golf-progress-thread/[/url] that has all my scores, how I felt about every round and everything you could want to know about my game. You don't have to read the giant posts, just look at the numbers. I started this year as god knows what handicap, as of a couple days ago it was like 17.4 as calculated on about.com since Golfshot seems to think I'm a +10 based on it's automatic handicap. I reported the bug to them and they told me "we don't know". It's common knowledge that the hard strokes are the ones sub 40, so why people seem to get so hung up on a handicap that will be completely different by the end of may is beyond me. You'd think I'd been stuck at 17 for years instead of a week...

I never backed off my claim of being a good ballstriker, people started debating what the word means and I got sick of talking semantics. What I meant by "good" ballstriker is that I make consistently solid contant with the ball. Meaning I rarely or never hit it more than a little bit off the center of the clubface. As I've repeatedly said my miss is thin. I'm sure I'm not the only person like that...

If you're so deadset in your belief of how terrible I am and how wrong I am, then shut up and go away. This is my thread, that I didn't make to have this conversation. I keep saying you guys don't "get it" because not a single one of you has done anything in this thread except twist or misinterpret my words, miss my meaning or just completely ignore the things I say that aren't "convenient" to your opinion. Point out to me one place where one of you addresses any of the following:

1) what I hit in the stores
2) what I played previously
3) what the pro fit me into
4) anything I've said regarding my miss
5) anything I've said regarding why I don't like GI irons
5) anything I've said regarding which clubs we are talking about

You say I haven't said anything new? Not one of you have had one valid point THIS ENTIRE DISCUSSION. Not one. Here is your challenge:

Give me one benefit to a GI iron based on what I've told you about *my* game that outweighs the negative things I've said regarding GI irons. I'll even let you ignore the appearance factor, but you have to address the turf interaction, the offset and my specific miss.

I want to hear from your mouth how a GI iron is going to help me specifically. I've explained everything I could in response to what you people are saying, you aren't coming back with anything new. I deleted that rant because the guy was so far off base that I got angry. I shouldn't have posted it in the first place. Now I'm less upset, but I'm still logging for the night. I have tried not to make this personal, but you guys seem deadset on doing just that. It is ignorant to think that there aren't people out there who defy "your opinion" of what a 17 is, it is ignorant to put that much stock in the number to begin with. It's stupid to sit and argue with someone who has been completely forthcoming and honest about his own game in a public forum.

I can't put it any other way, you think I look bad? You're arguing about a person you don't have any knowledge about other than what they tell you on the internet. I'm an easy target because I don't lie to make myself look better. I don't claim to be better than I was this afternoon. From where I sit you guys are the ones who look bad. Just get out of my thread and be done with it, you aren't welcome here anymore unless you have something constructive to post.

[dpwigolfer]

If he wants to play blades let him, I don't I play ap2s, but i'm not going to tell him he can't and there was a time when everyone played blades and they did fine back then.

[TexasAg]

The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

[gopherguts]

[quote name='Aithos' timestamp='1335900215' post='4825572']

I don't need to justify my purchases to you, I made my last golf set purchase in 2005 on the advice of the "pros" and my friends who said I wasn't good enough then to play blades (this was when I was around a 10). I bought my combo set of clubs ([b]Walter Hagen WH-104[/b]) and never felt comfortable or confident with the cavity back portion of the set.
[/quote]

Maybe THIS is your (original) problem ?

Hagen Golf hasn't produced a decent club since they made, are you ready, the Haig Ultra [b]BLADE[/b] !!!

Hagen Golf makes CRAPOLA !!! Talk about 3rd rate stuff,,,,,,,,


Now since you abandoned the other thread and didn't answer me over there maybe you'll answer me here. You claim to have read/seen/whatever all the empirical evidence and you claim that because your typical miss is dead center but low on the clubface that GI's wouldn't help you.

"Over there" I asked about the sweetspot. Clearly the s.s. is larger on GI irons but I always thought the s.s. was expanded in a circular direction and thus would help misses IN THE vertical center both higher and lower on the clubface as well as on the horizontal plane. Is this not correct ? Do the GI irons expand the s.s. ONLY horizontally and not vertically ?

One other thing. It sounds as if you've been playing for quite some time (the Hagens weren't your first set, were they ?) Whether you have or not, I wonder how you expect to be scratch in about 2 years ? That seems to be quite optimistic, no ? Or were you scratch before you got ill and are working your way back (which would seem to be a bit more possible/plausible) ?

[mst_coastie]

You should play some GI shovels you hack!

[anth]

[quote name='Aithos' timestamp='1336101518' post='4845044']
You say I haven't said anything new? Not one of you have had one valid point THIS ENTIRE DISCUSSION. Not one. Here is your challenge:

Give me one benefit to a GI iron based on what I've told you about *my* game that outweighs the negative things I've said regarding GI irons. I'll even let you ignore the appearance factor, but you have to address the turf interaction, the offset and my specific miss.

I want to hear from your mouth how a GI iron is going to help me specifically. I've explained everything I could in response to what you people are saying, you aren't coming back with anything new. I deleted that rant because the guy was so far off base that I got angry. I shouldn't have posted it in the first place. Now I'm less upset, but I'm still logging for the night. I have tried not to make this personal, but you guys seem deadset on doing just that. It is ignorant to think that there aren't people out there who defy "your opinion" of what a 17 is, it is ignorant to put that much stock in the number to begin with. It's stupid to sit and argue with someone who has been completely forthcoming and honest about his own game in a public forum.

I can't put it any other way, you think I look bad? You're arguing about a person you don't have any knowledge about other than what they tell you on the internet. I'm an easy target because I don't lie to make myself look better. I don't claim to be better than I was this afternoon. From where I sit you guys are the ones who look bad. Just get out of my thread and be done with it, you aren't welcome here anymore unless you have something constructive to post.
[/quote]

Like this?

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/651494-blades-accuracy/page__p__4843806__fromsearch__1#entry4843806

[mickw]

[quote name='gopherguts' timestamp='1336105003' post='4845400']
[quote name='Aithos' timestamp='1335900215' post='4825572']
I don't need to justify my purchases to you, I made my last golf set purchase in 2005 on the advice of the "pros" and my friends who said I wasn't good enough then to play blades (this was when I was around a 10). I bought my combo set of clubs ([b]Walter Hagen WH-104[/b]) and never felt comfortable or confident with the cavity back portion of the set.
[/quote]

Maybe THIS is your (original) problem ?

Hagen Golf hasn't produced a decent club since they made, are you ready, the Haig Ultra [b]BLADE[/b] !!!

Hagen Golf makes CRAPOLA !!! Talk about 3rd rate stuff,,,,,,,,



[/quote]

I'm not so sure...my brother-in-law and college roommate went with somewhat recent (last 5 years) Hagen sticks and they definitely improved over what they were previously playing with (brother-in-law--TM Rac LT's...roomate--Titleist DCI's). I'm not saying they're high quality by any means...but they definitely worked for 2 people I know in regards to their handicaps dropping considerably. Both of their previous sets were higher quality but produced weaker results...by far. Different strokes for different folks, I guess.

[batgeek]

of any threads in the entire interwebz that deserved the "Arguing on the internet/Special Olympics" pic, it's most definitely this one.

[puttingmatt]

WOW !!! Where is all this logic and reasoning that was originally
posted in the title, Some four pages back ???

[Aithos]

Gopher, from what I understand it isn't that the sweetspot is expanded but that the perimeter weighting increases forgiveness so the hits aren't as bad. Sweet spot implies a good result and a mishit may not be bad, but it usually won't be good (unless you're lucky or your bad hit was what you needed and a good hit would have missed). Also toe/heel are more severe misses and generally lose more distance/direction, that is why I say a GI won't help me there.

Edit: forgot to answer your other question regarding my goal. I was playing to a 10 in 2004 which was the last time I played regularly. Between cancer and financial issues I didn't play much between then and now. This year was the first time I could afford a membership and I've been playing a good amount. My game has also consistently been improving, I am not "stuck" at all. I won't have any problem getting back to ten, two years to go from 10-0 is my goal (next year and 2014) so its really closer to three years. I'm athletic and always had a talent for golf, I would have long ago been scratch if not for outside issues.

Anth, thanks for the link that was interesting to read. I have a hard time believing it but it makes me very interested in seeing a newer comparison study with today's equipment. That still doesn't change my opinion about what I hit but we will see down the road as I get better, I'm always willing to give something another chance.

To the rest, I'm not feeding the trolls anymore. You've chosen to disregard what I've said repeatedly, I've been more honest and forthcoming about myself and my game than 99% of people would be on the Internet. You can insult me and my golf game, it isn't going to change my opinion or my self worth or stop my improving golf game. You're welcome to follow my progress thread if you're so interested in my handicap, you can even punch in the numbers yourself...they are all there.

Last note, passive agressive is a lot better than me telling you what I really think of you. I tried really hard to not let this get personal or derailed and you felt the need to still do it, bravo.

[irishiain]

[quote name='Aithos' timestamp='1336101518' post='4845044']
[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1336099536' post='4844776']
Come on Aithos buddy, You haven't told us anything new in your last several posts and each time say "we don't know you": Well you intro'd yourself and spoke about your game completely on your terms. Also, the people who are responding to you with information that most people would consider valuable keep getting dismissed with your comments like "you don't get it". You have also started backing off of your claims about being a good ball striker. Again, you are engaging in a debate that MOST people on a forum will be on the other side of. I am not sure what you expect people's reaction to be when you insist on repeating things that you already know what the reaction will be. You are not going to convince anyone that a 17 (if thats even a real HC which seems to also be in question) should play blades if they have enough experience and knowledge to refute that. You are on and island here, screaming about how you don't need a "F******** GI iron" and how people don't know you. OK then, just keep it to yourself because frankly man, the more you post, the worse you look. Just let this thread die, play whatever iron you want, and stop trying to change the minds of people who offer a counter view based on engineering and design, and not opinion filled statements about "feel" and convince people that MP-69's are "very forgiving" . Just let it go.

EDIT: Oh, I see you deleted your rant/post. probably a very good idea,
[/quote]

You're joking right? I have been completely honest and forthcoming about my game. Go look at my progress thread [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/620662-aithos-golf-progress-thread/"]http://www.golfwrx.c...rogress-thread/[/url] that has all my scores, how I felt about every round and everything you could want to know about my game. You don't have to read the giant posts, just look at the numbers. I started this year as god knows what handicap, as of a couple days ago it was like 17.4 as calculated on about.com since Golfshot seems to think I'm a +10 based on it's automatic handicap. I reported the bug to them and they told me "we don't know". It's common knowledge that the hard strokes are the ones sub 40, so why people seem to get so hung up on a handicap that will be completely different by the end of may is beyond me. You'd think I'd been stuck at 17 for years instead of a week...

I never backed off my claim of being a good ballstriker, people started debating what the word means and I got sick of talking semantics. What I meant by "good" ballstriker is that I make consistently solid contant with the ball. Meaning I rarely or never hit it more than a little bit off the center of the clubface. As I've repeatedly said my miss is thin. I'm sure I'm not the only person like that...

If you're so deadset in your belief of how terrible I am and how wrong I am, then shut up and go away. This is my thread, that I didn't make to have this conversation. I keep saying you guys don't "get it" because not a single one of you has done anything in this thread except twist or misinterpret my words, miss my meaning or just completely ignore the things I say that aren't "convenient" to your opinion. Point out to me one place where one of you addresses any of the following:

1) what I hit in the stores
2) what I played previously
3) what the pro fit me into
4) anything I've said regarding my miss
5) anything I've said regarding why I don't like GI irons
5) anything I've said regarding which clubs we are talking about

You say I haven't said anything new? Not one of you have had one valid point THIS ENTIRE DISCUSSION. Not one. Here is your challenge:

Give me one benefit to a GI iron based on what I've told you about *my* game that outweighs the negative things I've said regarding GI irons. I'll even let you ignore the appearance factor, but you have to address the turf interaction, the offset and my specific miss.

I want to hear from your mouth how a GI iron is going to help me specifically. I've explained everything I could in response to what you people are saying, you aren't coming back with anything new. I deleted that rant because the guy was so far off base that I got angry. I shouldn't have posted it in the first place. Now I'm less upset, but I'm still logging for the night. I have tried not to make this personal, but you guys seem deadset on doing just that. It is ignorant to think that there aren't people out there who defy "your opinion" of what a 17 is, it is ignorant to put that much stock in the number to begin with. It's stupid to sit and argue with someone who has been completely forthcoming and honest about his own game in a public forum.

I can't put it any other way, you think I look bad? You're arguing about a person you don't have any knowledge about other than what they tell you on the internet. I'm an easy target because I don't lie to make myself look better. I don't claim to be better than I was this afternoon. From where I sit you guys are the ones who look bad. Just get out of my thread and be done with it, you aren't welcome here anymore unless you have something constructive to post.
[/quote]

This is getting out of hand. Obviously you like playing blades, this is fine. Would you score better with a more forgiving club? Probably. But if you enjoy playing more with blades then maybe not, either way you're not going to get people here to agree with you so just let it go.

[kg92lefty]

OF course he does not believe Tom Wishon. It does not fit his opinion. Whoever posted that article is being ignorant and not reading the original post or his progress thread!