Hogan's folding left arm post impact - was it a key?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1343224958' post='5349990']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1343174025' post='5346176']
Lag loading is the shaft bending as a result of outrunning the club head on the DS. Swingers Drag Load by pulling the handle longitudinally, Hitters Drive Load by pushing on the handle with the right triceps.
[/quote]
Thanks Joe - so is there a consequential ball flight choosing one of the other? Or is this one of those academic things that is just really where your brain put the feel?
[/quote]

This is the difference in the [b]physics[/b] of Swinging and Hitting. You can get any ball flight you want with either

[svsvincenzo]

John Schlee and Kris Tschetter, both Hogan students, clearly said you hit it as hard as you can with your R hand/arm. Schlee said you wait until you're into your L pivot point/foot and R elbow in pitch position right after startdown/transition and the laying-off. Tschetter said you do it with the last 3 fingers of your R hand.

I think the "battering ram" action of the R arm is a definite power source---a huge power source.

The dilemma is, how do you do this and the rotation and pull of the pivot AT THE SAME TIME. Does the use of the R arm truly slows down the pivot? Isn't there a way to use the R arm without slowing down the pivot? Maybe Hogan found the way? Maybe that's why he's into restraining/restricting the hips, and c0cking the hips even more in transition---he wants to tighten that "lug" so that it will turn without slowing down no matter what he does with the R arm and 3 R hands...

[hoganfan924]

I know that I'm a swinger in the traditional TGM sense. About as pure swinger as it gets probably. Pivot driven, no stall, turn the corner hard, karate chop feel with the left hand, etc. But when I need to get a little extra out of a club or when hitting from deep rough I often get the feeling that I'm drive loading in the last couple of feet of hand travel before impact. Maybe that's just a feel but I don't see why you can't do both in the same swing.

[svsvincenzo]

Yeah. But that R arm thrust is hard to time. And you have to really concentrate on turning your shoulders fast and thrusting that R arm. There are MANY different ways of thrusting that R arm though...not to mention the positions...of the elbow, the shoulder, the wrist, the hand, the fingers...lol

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343261361' post='5354038']
John Schlee and Kris Tschetter, both Hogan students, clearly said you hit it as hard as you can with your R hand/arm. Schlee said you wait until you're into your L pivot point/foot and R elbow in pitch position right after startdown/transition and the laying-off. Tschetter said you do it with the last 3 fingers of your R hand.

I think the "battering ram" action of the R arm is a definite power source---a huge power source.

The dilemma is, how do you do this and the rotation and pull of the pivot AT THE SAME TIME. Does the use of the R arm truly slows down the pivot? Isn't there a way to use the R arm without slowing down the pivot? Maybe Hogan found the way? Maybe that's why he's into restraining/restricting the hips, and c0cking the hips even more in transition---he wants to tighten that "lug" so that it will turn without slowing down no matter what he does with the R arm and 3 R hands...
[/quote]

I think you're assuming they are hitting it with the right hand using the right triceps, but they are probably using the right shoulder to drive the right hand through impact, which is just conventional TGM Swinging.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343261361' post='5354038']
John Schlee and Kris Tschetter, both Hogan students, clearly said you hit it as hard as you can with your R hand/arm. Schlee said you wait until you're into your L pivot point/foot and R elbow in pitch position right after startdown/transition and the laying-off. Tschetter said you do it with the last 3 fingers of your R hand.

I think the "battering ram" action of the R arm is a definite power source---a huge power source.

The dilemma is, how do you do this and the rotation and pull of the pivot AT THE SAME TIME. Does the use of the R arm truly slows down the pivot? Isn't there a way to use the R arm without slowing down the pivot? Maybe Hogan found the way? Maybe that's why he's into restraining/restricting the hips, and c0cking the hips even more in transition---he wants to tighten that "lug" so that it will turn without slowing down no matter what he does with the R arm and 3 R hands...
[/quote]

This is something I was exploring with Bradley Hughes.............. though I'm fairly new to the concept I think I've got an ok understanding of the action of the right hand/forearm.

Initially I was very focused on the pivot and having very subservient hands, which worked great when flattening the swing and doing 9-3 type drills............. though there was an obvious powerful limitation probably due to an over-reliance on waiting for the passive arms to catch up.

However Bradley made the very valid observation that the hands are not 'passive' because coming into impact the right palm will be facing skywards.......... and in a very small distance, literally from just outside right hip into impact position, this palm will go from facing upwards to angled downwards........ this requires strong forearm rotation............. however in no way should this throw off the action of the pivot............ so with this understanding I've become far more consciously aware of my hands yet still allowing the pivot to drive my action.............

To maintain this pivot supremacy the key for me is to keep the arms connected to the body (as Hogan suggests also with his drills)............ so on the downswing by flattening the club the right elbow comes close to the right side, and on the follow through I want the feeling of the upper left arm tight to the chest area............ this helps tell me that the pivot is controlling the action and the arms aren't being thrown.......... the added detail for me now is slamming the door shut with right forearm rotation in the downswing whilst maintaining this connectedness.............. this little rotation can create tremendous speed and accuracy for the club head and still complement the pivot.......... whether there is any action that could be termed thrusting I'm not sure as I'm focused on rotating hard open to closed and staying connected whilst resisting centrifugal forces.

Obviously being a pivot driven action the use of ground forces is key.......... yet once the feeling/action of goundforces is somewhat drilled then flattening the swing, the connectedness of the upper body, and right forearm rotation are my other ingredients.......... I'm working on a little pre-shot routine at the moment to quickly get these feeling prior to swinging so its literally step, flatten, hit.

[ej002]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1343268569' post='5354750']
I think you're assuming they are hitting it with the right hand using the right triceps, but they are probably using the right shoulder to drive the right hand through impact, which is just conventional TGM Swinging.
[/quote]

Interesting point, I am guessing then that a lot of people who say they hit, might be swinging with the right side. I was going to say this earlier, but pushing on the handle or pulling the handle (IMO) seems like it just a way to think about it - right v. left. The driving of the right arm triceps is different all together. So if you are pushing with the right side or pulling with the left and you just staying connected (not firing the arm) then that is classified as swinging, right? If that is true, then there is no way Hogan was a "hitter" because he never runs out of or really straightens that right arm. If what you are saying is true Joe, I don't see how there is even an debate about Hogan being a swinger. Maybe I am wrong, I don't know tgm that well...


As far as Brad Hughes saying that the hand goes from skyward to groundward, this can easily happen automoatically, especially if you are on a low plane, connected and pivoting hard. The face just slams shut - to the point that it has a mind of its own you you need to counter it... Maybe this is "active" - but it does nto have to be "conscious"

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343264363' post='5354302']
Yeah. But that R arm thrust is hard to time. And you have to really concentrate on turning your shoulders fast and thrusting that R arm. There are MANY different ways of thrusting that R arm though...not to mention the positions...of the elbow, the shoulder, the wrist, the hand, the fingers...lol
[/quote]

Your mind it too cluttered. Sometimes I wonder how you can even take the club back. lol

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1343314741' post='5357602']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1343268569' post='5354750']
I think you're assuming they are hitting it with the right hand using the right triceps, but they are probably using the right shoulder to drive the right hand through impact, which is just conventional TGM Swinging.
[/quote]

Interesting point, I am guessing then that a lot of people who say they hit, might be swinging with the right side. I was going to say this earlier, but pushing on the handle or pulling the handle (IMO) seems like it just a way to think about it - right v. left. The driving of the right arm triceps is different all together. So if you are pushing with the right side or pulling with the left and you just staying connected (not firing the arm) then that is classified as swinging, right? If that is true, then there is no way Hogan was a "hitter" because he never runs out of or really straightens that right arm. If what you are saying is true Joe, I don't see how there is even an debate about Hogan being a swinger. Maybe I am wrong, I don't know tgm that well...


As far as Brad Hughes saying that the hand goes from skyward to groundward, this can easily happen automoatically, especially if you are on a low plane, connected and pivoting hard. The face just slams shut - to the point that it has a mind of its own you you need to counter it... Maybe this is "active" - but it does nto have to be "conscious"
[/quote]

It sure doesn't have to be conscious which is why I was still able to hit the ball straight despite totally focusing on pivot, layoff, and staying connected.

BH was making the point that for Hogan and Miller (and others) active forearm rotation was present in their swings............ Miller has described this in lessons, and Hogan shows this clearly when making slow motion swings for audiences (and also its very present in his short iron swings)............... if I'd heard this about Hogan from anyone else I would be highly skeptical but Bradley always backs this up with lots of video and images........... not to mention he is a fantastic golfer and practices what he preaches.

I've tried to incorporate it and it makes sense............. active hand action in a pivot dominated flat swing.......... weird but its starting to work.......... really turns the power on and actually can improve accuracy, I think because of limitations in the body.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1343315042' post='5357634']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343264363' post='5354302']
Yeah. But that R arm thrust is hard to time. And you have to really concentrate on turning your shoulders fast and thrusting that R arm. There are MANY different ways of thrusting that R arm though...not to mention the positions...of the elbow, the shoulder, the wrist, the hand, the fingers...lol
[/quote]

Your mind it too cluttered. Sometimes I wonder how you can even take the club back. lol
[/quote]

May be the reason why one improves faster than others...

[svsvincenzo]

Question...if Hogan used the 3 R hands and/or R arm thrust, do you guys think he would still arrive at his unique high hands finish?

If no, I agree...for now...still researching on this...

If yes, how?

[HoganAfficianado]

When you look at Hogan's swing in his prime, there was not this extreme shaft lay-off in transition. He was simply holding the structure that he created at the top and pivoting hard. I doubt he had any swing thoughts coming down.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343317934' post='5357986']
Question...if Hogan used the 3 R hands and/or R arm thrust, do you guys think he would still arrive at his unique high hands finish?

If no, I agree...for now...still researching on this...

If yes, how?
[/quote]

I think he could.............

I believe its possible because you're only assisting a limited motion that happens somewhat naturally anyway............ the right forearm is tucked and in a very small distance it rotates shut aggressively.......... in no way should this interrupt the pivot.......... actually I believe it should help it......... everything is still moving in the correct direction with the proper forces and it should add to momentum....... bear in mind that the right forearm should have a very limited action and range of motion here.

I think Hogan had a high finish because of the large rotational forces generated from his unstalling pivot with the right hip clearing continuously, great use of ground forces, flat plane, and very connected arms........... everything eventually gets pulled up because these forces created an extending left side........... aggressive right forearm rotation before and through impact shouldn't affect this IMO.........

[svsvincenzo]

NBD,

If you rotate the R hand/forearm, the clubhead will go left of your hands looking at yourself DTL. Hogan doesn't.

HA,

Agree with you totally on the keeping the structure in transition/DS. It just looks like he is laying it off with extra hand movements because his plane flattens a bit. Naturally the clubhead will also dip a bit. He said turn the hips and "forget about it"...lol

[HoganAfficianado]

the extra laying off was mostly a result of his weaker grip. I'd be curious to know what years the clinics were filmed.

[nicebutdim]

Thats an interesting observation..............

a few swings of my trusty 3 irons suggests that it might have been a somewhat different motion then............. btw please tell me when I've had to many cracks at this?! :-)

Hogan could be said to swing around, under and up............ Hogan was noted to cup the wrist at the top of the backswing, and bow into impact........... if you come into the hitting zone with right palm up but left wrist starting to bow, this can rotate and lock your position into impact................ now the right hand can push across the hips.............

haven't tried hitting a ball this way but its a slightly different feel and seems to mimic the position you mentioned.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1343315042' post='5357634']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343264363' post='5354302']
Yeah. But that R arm thrust is hard to time. And you have to really concentrate on turning your shoulders fast and thrusting that R arm. There are MANY different ways of thrusting that R arm though...not to mention the positions...of the elbow, the shoulder, the wrist, the hand, the fingers...lol
[/quote]

Your mind it too cluttered. Sometimes I wonder how you can even take the club back. lol
[/quote]

I wonder how anyone can with all that TGM crap. I haven't read it but I'm still calling the book crap because I can tell it's crap based on all the crap that everyone here talks about. "power accumulators float load pressure points BLAHHH". It's like scientology. People that are into it believe it's the truth, but everyone else knows that we aren't all actually possessed by alien souls.

Sorry for ranting, don't want to offend anyone. I just think the TGM framework is CRAP.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1343322201' post='5358560']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1343315042' post='5357634']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343264363' post='5354302']
Yeah. But that R arm thrust is hard to time. And you have to really concentrate on turning your shoulders fast and thrusting that R arm. There are MANY different ways of thrusting that R arm though...not to mention the positions...of the elbow, the shoulder, the wrist, the hand, the fingers...lol
[/quote]

Your mind it too cluttered. Sometimes I wonder how you can even take the club back. lol
[/quote]

I wonder how anyone can with all that TGM crap. I haven't read it but I'm still calling the book crap because I can tell it's crap based on all the crap that everyone here talks about. "power accumulators float load pressure points BLAHHH". It's like scientology. People that are into it believe it's the truth, but everyone else knows that we aren't all actually possessed by alien souls.

Sorry for ranting, don't want to offend anyone. I just think the TGM framework is CRAP.
[/quote]

I haven't read it so I can't say whether its crap or not.......... however I do know that its makes a difficult game even more inaccessible.

Call me simple but I just prefer pictures, and words that describe feelings......... the day a great golfer or baseball player or footballer or tennis player starts thinking in this quasi 'scientific' bio-mechanical way is the day I'll pour my effort into it.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1343322201' post='5358560']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1343315042' post='5357634']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343264363' post='5354302']
Yeah. But that R arm thrust is hard to time. And you have to really concentrate on turning your shoulders fast and thrusting that R arm. There are MANY different ways of thrusting that R arm though...not to mention the positions...of the elbow, the shoulder, the wrist, the hand, the fingers...lol
[/quote]

Your mind it too cluttered. Sometimes I wonder how you can even take the club back. lol
[/quote]

I wonder how anyone can with all that [b]TGM crap[/b]. I haven't read it but I'm still calling the book [b]crap[/b] because I can tell it's [b]crap[/b] based on all the [b]crap[/b] that everyone here talks about. "power accumulators float load pressure points BLAHHH". It's like scientology. People that are into it believe it's the truth, but everyone else knows that we aren't all actually possessed by alien souls.

Sorry for ranting, [b]don't want to offend anyone[/b]. I just think the [b]TGM [/b]framework [b]is CRAP.[/b]
[/quote]

Now that's funny!

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1343322833' post='5358634']
[b]I haven't read it[/b] so I can't say whether its crap or not.......... [b]however[/b] [b]I do know that its makes a difficult game even more inaccessible.[/b]

[b]Call me simple[/b]
[/quote]

OK then, you are simple.

[hoganfan924]

You guys need to understand that Hogan's slow mo demo swing cannot possibly square the clubface, so he has to add that little flick with his hands. His real swing doesn't need that because the physical forces are doing a lot of the squaring for him

[HoganAfficianado]

Anyone know if the clinics were filmed pre-accident?

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1343324885' post='5358846']
You guys need to understand that Hogan's slow mo demo swing cannot possibly square the clubface, so he has to add that little flick with his hands. His real swing doesn't need that because the physical forces are doing a lot of the squaring for him
[/quote]

.......... as long as you understand that he said he wished he had 3 right hands............ deal?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1343314741' post='5357602']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1343268569' post='5354750']
I think you're assuming they are hitting it with the right hand using the right triceps, but they are probably using the right shoulder to drive the right hand through impact, which is just conventional TGM Swinging.
[/quote]

Interesting point, I am guessing then that a lot of people who say they hit, might be swinging with the right side. I was going to say this earlier, but pushing on the handle or pulling the handle (IMO) seems like it just a way to think about it - right v. left. The driving of the right arm triceps is different all together. So if you are pushing with the right side or pulling with the left and you just staying connected (not firing the arm) then that is classified as swinging, right? If that is true, then there is no way Hogan was a "hitter" because he never runs out of or really straightens that right arm. If what you are saying is true Joe, I don't see how there is even an debate about Hogan being a swinger. Maybe I am wrong, I don't know tgm that well...

[/quote]

In TGM Swinging, you are both pushing on the left hand with the right shoulder and bent right arm, and pulling the left hand, because the driving right shoulder moves the inactive left shoulder, which pulls the inactive left arm. This gives the feeling of hitting with the right shoulder, but that's not TGM Hitting, because the right triceps is not fired.

Yes, there really is no debate - Hogan's a Swinger, but since his left side is active, it's not really TGM certified in the strictest sense.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1343324289' post='5358792']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1343322833' post='5358634']
[b]I haven't read it[/b] so I can't say whether its crap or not.......... [b]however[/b] [b]I do know that its makes a difficult game even more inaccessible.[/b]

[b]Call me simple[/b]
[/quote]

OK then, you are simple.
[/quote]

profile is already 'nicebutdim' so not sure there's much to add here! written on the label..............

crap crap crap crap.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1343328576' post='5359220']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1343314741' post='5357602']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1343268569' post='5354750']
I think you're assuming they are hitting it with the right hand using the right triceps, but they are probably using the right shoulder to drive the right hand through impact, which is just conventional TGM Swinging.
[/quote]

Interesting point, I am guessing then that a lot of people who say they hit, might be swinging with the right side. I was going to say this earlier, but pushing on the handle or pulling the handle (IMO) seems like it just a way to think about it - right v. left. The driving of the right arm triceps is different all together. So if you are pushing with the right side or pulling with the left and you just staying connected (not firing the arm) then that is classified as swinging, right? If that is true, then there is no way Hogan was a "hitter" because he never runs out of or really straightens that right arm. If what you are saying is true Joe, I don't see how there is even an debate about Hogan being a swinger. Maybe I am wrong, I don't know tgm that well...

[/quote]

In TGM Swinging, you are both pushing on the left hand with the right shoulder and bent right arm, and pulling the left hand, because the driving right shoulder moves the inactive left shoulder, which pulls the inactive left arm. This gives the feeling of hitting with the right shoulder, but that's not TGM Hitting, because the right triceps is not fired.

Yes, there really is no debate - Hogan's a Swinger, but since his left side is active, it's not really TGM certified in the strictest sense.
[/quote]

How would you classify Tiger Woods or Adam Scott?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1343328880' post='5359260']

How would you classify Tiger Woods or Adam Scott?
[/quote]

Both are TGM Swingers.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1343329773' post='5359358']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1343328880' post='5359260']

How would you classify Tiger Woods or Adam Scott?
[/quote]

Both are TGM Swingers.
[/quote]

So you're saying that according to TGM classification that Woods, Scott and Hogan would all be 'Swingers'........................ how can that be when they have markedly different swing types? Also does TGM then acknowledge the huge differences between Hogan and Scott in other ways?

Genuinely interested because Bradley Hughes would term Hogan, Player, Trevino, Knudson etc as Hitters............... and Woods, Scott, Donald etc as Swingers................ personally I've always felt that from a semantic point of view it should be the opposite way around........... but I get what he's saying.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1343331503' post='5359568']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1343329773' post='5359358']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1343328880' post='5359260']
How would you classify Tiger Woods or Adam Scott?
[/quote]

Both are TGM Swingers.
[/quote]

So you're saying that according to TGM classification that Woods, Scott and Hogan would all be 'Swingers'........................ how can that be when they have markedly different swing types? Also does TGM then acknowledge the huge differences between Hogan and Scott in other ways?

Genuinely interested because Bradley Hughes would term Hogan, Player, Trevino, Knudson etc as Hitters............... and Woods, Scott, Donald etc as Swingers................ personally I've always felt that from a semantic point of view it should be the opposite way around........... but I get what he's saying.
[/quote]

There are many variations of TGM Swinging patterns, however back when Woods and Scott were with Harmon, they looked like clones and in fact, according to Harman, Scott mimicked Woods. Some time ago there was a side-by-side on Youtube and they looked virtually identical. I don't know what Hughes' definition of Hitting is, but I'm pretty sure it's not the same as TGM's. In the TGM world, Woods, Scott, and Hogan are Swingers, but Hogan has different components than the other 2 had when they were with Harmon..

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1343322201' post='5358560']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1343315042' post='5357634']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343264363' post='5354302']
Yeah. But that R arm thrust is hard to time. And you have to really concentrate on turning your shoulders fast and thrusting that R arm. There are MANY different ways of thrusting that R arm though...not to mention the positions...of the elbow, the shoulder, the wrist, the hand, the fingers...lol
[/quote]

Your mind it too cluttered. Sometimes I wonder how you can even take the club back. lol
[/quote]

I wonder how anyone can with all that TGM crap. I haven't read it but I'm still calling the book crap because I can tell it's crap based on all the crap that everyone here talks about. "power accumulators float load pressure points BLAHHH". It's like scientology. People that are into it believe it's the truth, but everyone else knows that we aren't all actually possessed by alien souls.

Sorry for ranting, don't want to offend anyone. I just think the TGM framework is CRAP.
[/quote]

You don't understand it, that's why.