Ball position with Hogan-esque release

[Jericho]

With the more rotational swing (as opposed to today's more upright swings) there are lots of impact pictures of Hogan with his tucked right elbow. With the right elbow bent so much does it go that the ball should be closer to the body?

[CrashDavis]

Oooohhh lookie there somebody's on to something.. You titled the thread so keep on truckin sir.

[Timanator]

I wonder that at times, but then Hogan really has the ball further and has a more upright posture. But dives slightly at the ball at impact.

[tembolo1284]

since he lowers so much during the swing the upright posture is totally nullified. But I think it's a bit further out. I agree with Timanator on that one.

[ej002]

I think his right side comes through so hard that it essentially gets him closer to the ball. Look at videos and you can see this.

[hoganfan924]

His right shoulder is much closer to the ball at impact than many other players, especially players of today. Look at this vid of Burke Jr. Unreal how open his whole body is at impact. This was relatively common in the 50's but I don't know if any player today is this open:
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4PjmIqz8bA"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4PjmIqz8bA[/url]

[JBOMB808]

Modern gear has a lot to do with this. Older gear sits flatter than the irons AND metals out today.

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1348692024' post='5700289']
His right shoulder is much closer to the ball at impact than many other players, especially players of today. Look at this vid of Burke Jr. Unreal how open his whole body is at impact. This was relatively common in the 50's but I don't know if any player today is this open:
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4PjmIqz8bA[/media]
[/quote]

The video is not there so can't see Burke. It's different
but Furyk looks wide open to me at impact; almost like
he's hitting the ball side saddle.

[Conrad1953]

Weird, when I quoted you and posted the reply
the Burke video showed up. Don't know how that
happened.

[chrisgilly09]

Ya, hes pretty close cause he doesnt have to stall.

[svsvincenzo]

Timanator and tembolo, what made you say Hogan is relatively farther from the ball?

[tylerdurden]

Wow, I'm embarassed to say I've never seen Burke's swing. SOLID.

[Timanator]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1348717989' post='5702645']
Timanator and tembolo, what made you say Hogan is relatively farther from the ball?
[/quote]

Watch the Shell Golf videos of Hogan on YouTube, some how the older he got the more he seemed to setup further from the ball(Somewhere around 1964). In the 40's I think he may have been closer to the ball, but most of those videos are not as good.

[JBOMB808]

I imagine Hogan came to the conclusion that his 'new' grip changed his club's position in relation to his body. The weaker the farther away, the stronger the closer to his body. My guess is that he realized that the power he had may have come from that strong grip because of the amount of forearm rotation he could produce through the ball ala Fred Couples/Bobby Jones, ~BUT~ "with great power comes great responsibility." His notorious hook peeked its ugly head at inopportune times when he was 'tense' from being in contention. A push vs a hook as a 'miss', just IMO.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Timanator' timestamp='1348763077' post='5704769']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1348717989' post='5702645']
Timanator and tembolo, what made you say Hogan is relatively farther from the ball?
[/quote]

Watch the Shell Golf videos of Hogan on YouTube, some how the older he got the more he seemed to setup further from the ball(Somewhere around 1964). In the 40's I think he may have been closer to the ball, but most of those videos are not as good.
[/quote]

Why would you want a swing adjusted to an older battered body with much less pivot going on?

A farther ball and hence higher hands position means faster clubhead speed at impact zone regardless of slower pivot, that's why. Cons is that sudden burst if speed happens in a much shorter time, hence faster face closure rate. But it doesn't matter, he's not into competition. Another example is that Coleman video. It doesn't matter if you're hitting into the ocean.

And...the Shell vids in YT are mostly squeezed vertically (in effect stretched horizontally).

[Timanator]

hogangolf1, this is just a hunch.

I think Hogan setup with most of his weight on the balls of his feet, and when he posted in to the right side on the back swing, It allows him to Keep the weight on down and Dive in to attack the ball at a very Steep angle. But with his pivot driven core and quiet hands, the club head gets through the ground without too huge of a gash.

I bet he had alot of back spin on his none Tee'd up shots.

[CrashDavis]

Are you talking about Ben Hogan? Because it sounds like you're describing Paula Creamer, every single thing you said is completely & totally backwards. Where does that come from?

[Timanator]

[quote name='CrashDavis' timestamp='1348918011' post='5716153']
Are you talking about Ben Hogan? Because it sounds like you're describing Paula Creamer, every single thing you said is completely & totally backwards. Where does that come from?
[/quote]


Comes from studying film. Got some Paula films for me to "Study"?

[svsvincenzo]

Yeah, where did that come from Timanator?

Agree with chrisgilly...it's close because his pivot never stalls, and his L hand grip. It looks like its farther bec Hogan is short, and his R hand that is more above is arched. Plus his weight is clearly more on the heels, look at his behind, it's behind the heels. With his spine quite straight up, how can you have your weight on the balls. That alone requires a closer ball. Plus he keeps the connection thru impact. He will not hit or he will toe the ball if its not close. So closer ball is combo of non stalling pivot, L hand grip, weight distribution, stance and maintaining connection thru impact. His non stalling pivot is also created with L side extension, R side bend and full extension/back bend. The L side extension will require his L hip to get past the tush line, thus farther ball is not possible if he doesn't stall the pivot.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Timanator' timestamp='1348938823' post='5717649']
[quote name='CrashDavis' timestamp='1348918011' post='5716153']
Are you talking about Ben Hogan? Because it sounds like you're describing Paula Creamer, every single thing you said is completely & totally backwards. Where does that come from?
[/quote]


Comes from studying film. Got some Paula films for me to "Study"?
[/quote]

Agree with CD. All you said are backwards/opposite if what Hogan did.

His shoulders and arms may have gone down steep, but his club/shaft came shallow, and perhaps more shallow than anyone in the game.

[Timanator]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1348939449' post='5717695']
His shoulders and arms may have gone down steep, but his club/shaft came shallow, and perhaps more shallow than anyone in the game.
[/quote]


Thats from the pivot, not the setup. Do your own film study and look at Hogan weight at setup, top and impact. I have tried it at the range, and it's a very awkward feeling to be that much on top of the ball. Very opposite of modern players when compared..

[CrashDavis]

If you would be so kind, please define a pivot. And I have taken a look at it once or twice..

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Timanator' timestamp='1348939850' post='5717715']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1348939449' post='5717695']
His shoulders and arms may have gone down steep, but his club/shaft came shallow, and perhaps more shallow than anyone in the game.
[/quote]


Thats from the pivot, not the setup. Do your own film study and look at Hogan weight at setup, top and impact. I have tried it at the range, and it's a very awkward feeling to be that much on top of the ball. Very opposite of modern players when compared..
[/quote]

I have made film study of Hogan, prolly much more than yours.

Tim you said hogan had steep angle of attack. That's what I'm responding to. His divots are super shallow and loooooong.

What do you mean by your last post above?

[CrashDavis]

This guy is Powdersville.. yeah The Man was steep and dove at the ball, there it is..

[Timanator]

These are just some observations I have made of Hogan from footage out there. Not saying this is what he did every time, but there is definetly something he is doing in the setup that allowed him to get through the ball with a different weight distribution.

Here is 3 pictures sequence of Mahan and 1. Hogan at address, 2. Take back left arm at parallel to the ground, and 3. at the Top. Notice where the weight is for each player. When I attempt this, it feels like you are tipping over a ledge, with your upper body ready to fall over.

Notice in photo 2 and 3 how far bent over and legs relatively straight with the weight on top of the ball.

[Timanator]

In the down swing, Sequence - Coming down with arms to parallel, Left arm almost pointing at the ball, and Impact.



Hogan seem to pivot and gets down on his left leg as the first move, which is his signature huge pivot rather than a dive at the ball(He does not get any lower to the ball because of this). Everything was done at Setup, his upper body now stays at the same positions through the turn to the left.

On the other hand, Mahan does not "dive" or lower his upper body in to the ball until right before impact. I think by 4-5 degrees last I checked.

[svsvincenzo]

When you try to maintain your spine angle like Hogan, and you do it the "natural" or common way of trying to keep your spine bent over, you will indeed fall over in front and transfer your weight to the balls of your feet.

IMO Hogan didn't do this. He got the hands and shaft in his own BS plane image feel early on takeaway and then just allowed his shoulders to rotate just on an enough vertical-ness so as to enable his eyes to still look at the ball directly (not down). So he made his L shoulder go down under his chin and achieve L side tilt. People not doing this L side tilt or L shoulder down will feel instinctively that they have to bend over their spine more in front of them (forward flexion) to maintain the spine angle at setup. So in actuality, they are turn g their shoulders not parallel to the plane of glass but across it to inside. So now they are bent over away from target. So as not to sway away from target, they try to bend over more towards the targetline. Hence weight going in front.

[CrashDavis]

1. The number on Hogan in the top address position isn't even close, its off at least 12°
2. Mahan is taller than 5'7" & has shorter arms
3. The entire comparison is statistical rather than principle, good luck learning to.play that way
4. You look at a pivot from the front rather than DTL
5. Look at the obvious difference in left leg action with Hogan late in the downswing, that's a completely different protocol
6. Its not planting the left leg early in the downswing that's different, its lateral motion
7. Of course you feel like you're going to tip over at address, you've never been taught proper principles of motion based mechanics, you don't trace over the Mona Lisa in order to understand it

[Timanator]

CrashD.

The height has nothing to do with it, and you are way off the point. Hogan set the ball further IMO because of his setup positions. Look at Sergio and Weir both are in the same height, Neither setups their weight towards the ball of their feet.


Lets hear your theory and some proof rather than talking about different camera angles.

Hogangolf01,

I'm strictly talking about the setup and why the ball is so far away from him. It's the forward lean stance thats part of his intentional setup. And while we are on this, there isnt much good Hogan footage's from 48 and before, which were his best swinging days. All the stuff I have are from the post accident Hogan.

[CrashDavis]

What exactly are you smoking?

I'm not the one going stathead, I know exactly what the score is and if you are interested in reality which I don't think you are I'll be happy to discuss it in private.