Paging FLOGMR, MiuraGuru about Miura irons

[MizzyMan]

Alright, you guys seem to know a lot about Miura. Who can clear up the dispute about who actually makes Miura irons? And where they are made. First one who can clear it up with FACTS, not conjecture, I'll take to Dallas National GC (top 100 course, #1 in Texas) whenever (if ever) you're in town.

 

I just would really like to know for sure. Tired of all this BS re: who really makes them, the foundry where they're made is not owned by Miura, etc. I know it shouldn't matter but it seems to matter more to the people that don't think they're anything special. And as an owner, just like if I bought a Ferrari, it'd be nice where to know who made them and where if you're paying a premium price.

[matchavez]

Agreed; for the progeny, lineage is important.

[pearls24]

Not to thread jack but I played Dallas National about a month ago. Loved the course!

[MiuraGuru]

[quote name='MizzyMan' timestamp='1350827369' post='5823677']
Alright, you guys seem to know a lot about Miura. Who can clear up the dispute about who actually makes Miura irons? And where they are made. First one who can clear it up with FACTS, not conjecture, I'll take to Dallas National GC (top 100 course, #1 in Texas) whenever (if ever) you're in town.

I just would really like to know for sure. Tired of all this BS re: who really makes them, the foundry where they're made is not owned by Miura, etc. I know it shouldn't matter but it seems to matter more to the people that don't think they're anything special. And as an owner, just like if I bought a Ferrari, it'd be nice where to know who made them and where if you're paying a premium price.
[/quote]

every single Miura club is made in Himeji, Japan, at the Miura factory, owned by Miura, by Katsuhiro Miura, Shinei Miura and Yoshitaka Miura. Obviously there are employees at the factory to help out along the way ie. paint fill, etc, but everyday you can find the Miura boys sitting down working on the forgings, grinding clubs, etc.

Where some confusion comes from, is the fact that two buildings are used. The first building, is where the forgings happen. The steel is forged and shaped into the initial golf club head shape. This building is owned by Miura, and is operated by Miura employees. The heads are then transported to the second Miura owned building (about a mile down the road) where the clubs are ground finished, painted and packaged for shipment, all by Miura employees.

Anyone who is interested in watching Miura clubs be built from beginning to end is invited to visit the Miura factory. We are not hiding anything and have no idea where all these rumors come from! If you would like to visit the factory, just PM me and I can get you details. You can even sit next to Mr. Miura as he grinds a wedge or a set of clubs specifically for you! Any further questions, just ask.

[vanla01]

[quote name='MizzyMan' timestamp='1350827369' post='5823677']
Alright, you guys seem to know a lot about Miura. Who can clear up the dispute about who actually makes Miura irons? And where they are made. First one who can clear it up with FACTS, not conjecture, I'll take to Dallas National GC (top 100 course, #1 in Texas) whenever (if ever) you're in town.

I just would really like to know for sure. Tired of all this BS re: who really makes them, the foundry where they're made is not owned by Miura, etc. I know it shouldn't matter but it seems to matter more to the people that don't think they're anything special. And as an owner, just like if I bought a Ferrari, it'd be nice where to know who made them and where if you're paying a premium price.
[/quote]



[b]You can read more about Miura Forgings on this link from TSG: [/b][url="http://www.tourspecgolf.com/forum/topic/30737-miura-forging/"]http://www.tourspecg...-miura-forging/[/url]

[scratchswinger]

[quote name='MiuraGuru' timestamp='1350939449' post='5829293']
[quote name='MizzyMan' timestamp='1350827369' post='5823677']
Alright, you guys seem to know a lot about Miura. Who can clear up the dispute about who actually makes Miura irons? And where they are made. First one who can clear it up with FACTS, not conjecture, I'll take to Dallas National GC (top 100 course, #1 in Texas) whenever (if ever) you're in town.

I just would really like to know for sure. Tired of all this BS re: who really makes them, the foundry where they're made is not owned by Miura, etc. I know it shouldn't matter but it seems to matter more to the people that don't think they're anything special. And as an owner, just like if I bought a Ferrari, it'd be nice where to know who made them and where if you're paying a premium price.
[/quote]

every single Miura club is made in Himeji, Japan, at the Miura factory, owned by Miura, by Katsuhiro Miura, Shinei Miura and Yoshitaka Miura. Obviously there are employees at the factory to help out along the way ie. paint fill, etc, but everyday you can find the Miura boys sitting down working on the forgings, grinding clubs, etc.

Where some confusion comes from, is the fact that two buildings are used. The first building, is where the forgings happen. The steel is forged and shaped into the initial golf club head shape. This building is owned by Miura, and is operated by Miura employees. The heads are then transported to the second Miura owned building (about a mile down the road) where the clubs are ground finished, painted and packaged for shipment, all by Miura employees.

Anyone who is interested in watching Miura clubs be built from beginning to end is invited to visit the Miura factory. We are not hiding anything and have no idea where all these rumors come from! If you would like to visit the factory, just PM me and I can get you details[b]. You can even sit next to Mr. Miura as he grinds a wedge or a set of clubs specifically for you![/b] Any further questions, just ask.
[/quote]

If I ever go to Japan I will be sure to hit you up. Thanks for the detailed response.

[MizzyMan]

[quote name='vanla01' timestamp='1350940361' post='5829371']
[quote name='MizzyMan' timestamp='1350827369' post='5823677']
Alright, you guys seem to know a lot about Miura. Who can clear up the dispute about who actually makes Miura irons? And where they are made. First one who can clear it up with FACTS, not conjecture, I'll take to Dallas National GC (top 100 course, #1 in Texas) whenever (if ever) you're in town.

I just would really like to know for sure. Tired of all this BS re: who really makes them, the foundry where they're made is not owned by Miura, etc. I know it shouldn't matter but it seems to matter more to the people that don't think they're anything special. And as an owner, just like if I bought a Ferrari, it'd be nice where to know who made them and where if you're paying a premium price.
[/quote]



[b]You can read more about Miura Forgings on this link from TSG: [/b][url="http://www.tourspecgolf.com/forum/topic/30737-miura-forging/"]http://www.tourspecg...-miura-forging/[/url]
[/quote]

Ha. That's why I brought this up in the first place. The folks there swear that the bldg. there is not owned by Miura. That someone else forges them and Miura-san and his boys just grind and finish them. And that their techniques such as spin-welding the hosels are just cost-cutting, inferior ways of forging. I happen to LOVE their irons, esp. the 1957's. Was looking into getting some of the "Miuraisms" (sb-02, same shape as baby blades but slightly bigger) but was basically talked out of them and that there were better options.

[MizzyMan]

[quote name='MiuraGuru' timestamp='1350939449' post='5829293']
[quote name='MizzyMan' timestamp='1350827369' post='5823677']
Alright, you guys seem to know a lot about Miura. Who can clear up the dispute about who actually makes Miura irons? And where they are made. First one who can clear it up with FACTS, not conjecture, I'll take to Dallas National GC (top 100 course, #1 in Texas) whenever (if ever) you're in town.

I just would really like to know for sure. Tired of all this BS re: who really makes them, the foundry where they're made is not owned by Miura, etc. I know it shouldn't matter but it seems to matter more to the people that don't think they're anything special. And as an owner, just like if I bought a Ferrari, it'd be nice where to know who made them and where if you're paying a premium price.
[/quote]

every single Miura club is made in Himeji, Japan, at the Miura factory, owned by Miura, by Katsuhiro Miura, Shinei Miura and Yoshitaka Miura. Obviously there are employees at the factory to help out along the way ie. paint fill, etc, but everyday you can find the Miura boys sitting down working on the forgings, grinding clubs, etc.

Where some confusion comes from, is the fact that two buildings are used. The first building, is where the forgings happen. The steel is forged and shaped into the initial golf club head shape. This building is owned by Miura, and is operated by Miura employees. The heads are then transported to the second Miura owned building (about a mile down the road) where the clubs are ground finished, painted and packaged for shipment, all by Miura employees.

Anyone who is interested in watching Miura clubs be built from beginning to end is invited to visit the Miura factory. We are not hiding anything and have no idea where all these rumors come from! If you would like to visit the factory, just PM me and I can get you details. You can even sit next to Mr. Miura as he grinds a wedge or a set of clubs specifically for you! Any further questions, just ask.
[/quote]

Thanks for the great answer. I've heard that the building is in fact not owned by Miura but I'm not sure of the source.

What about the spin-welding? I've heard from the same folks that this is just an antiquated, cost-cutting technique. Now if it's cheaper, no big deal. But if it's inferior for any reason, I'd like to know.

[MiuraGuru]

Miura absolutely 100% forges its own clubs. Like I stated before, we invite anyone to visit the factory and watch the process from beginning to end themselves. The spin welding is a technique used by Mr Miura in order to allow him to strike the head more times during the forging process than if the club was forged with the hosel on. If you were to strike a club as many times as Miura does with the hosel on, it would be incredibly weak and most likely snap. This process of club forging is patented by Miura. To suggest that it is a cost cutting technique is absolutely bogus.

By striking the club additional time (which other companies cannot do due to their forging with hosel on) allows for the club to have a tighter mollecular structure which it turn results in all that is Miura ie) feel, consistant ball flights, etc. People describe Miura clubs feeling so "soft" and even go as far to ask if a softer steel is used compared to other companies (which defies physics but thats a different topic). In fact what you are feeling when experiencing the "Miura epiphany", is a SOLID strike on the ball.

We like to describe the molecular structure in Miura clubs (due to the miura technique of forging the club head with hosel off) by asking you to picture a mason jar in front of you. Now picture that jar full of marbles. That is the molecular structure of other companies. When you hit it on one of the marbles, it feels great, however, when you hit one of the gaps between the marbles, the result is a strange ball flight, a lack of feel on the shot, and the inkling that you didn't quite hit it right. Now picture that same jar, but filled with sand. This is a Miura molecular structure. When you hit the ball right, you have the prior mentioned "Miura epiphany".

I can honestly tell you all that Mr. Miura is the definition of a perfectionist. His goal, since he started forging clubs in 1957, is to create the perfect golf club. He will not conform to fads and make a golf club to sell first and perform second. His motto is that he will always make a golf club to perform first and sell second. This is the same reason Miura Golf does not pay players to play their clubs. Katsuhiro Miura did not get into the golf business to make money, he got into it with a extreme sense of pride in attempting to make the best golf club in the world.

[MiuraGuru]

Oh, and spin welding is not inferior in any way. The steel becomes SO hot that it is a strong as a regular forging. We have never had a complaint of a weak hosel, and in fact during testing, we have bent our hosels to be parallel with the ground, and back up to upright, and the hosels showed no signs of weakening. So bending it any amount won't affect the durability of the club. Like I stated before, Mr. Miura wants to make the perfect golf club, and if spin welding was not the absolute best way to make a golf club in his mind, he wouldn't use it.

[asualum]

[quote name='MiuraGuru' timestamp='1350944855' post='5829717']
Miura absolutely 100% forges its own clubs. Like I stated before, we invite anyone to visit the factory and watch the process from beginning to end themselves. The spin welding is a technique used by Mr Miura in order to allow him to strike the head more times during the forging process than if the club was forged with the hosel on. If you were to strike a club as many times as Miura does with the hosel on, it would be incredibly weak and most likely snap. This process of club forging is patented by Miura. To suggest that it is a cost cutting technique is absolutely bogus.

By striking the club additional time (which other companies cannot do due to their forging with hosel on) allows for the club to have a tighter mollecular structure which it turn results in all that is Miura ie) feel, consistant ball flights, etc. People describe Miura clubs feeling so "soft" and even go as far to ask if a softer steel is used compared to other companies (which defies physics but thats a different topic). In fact what you are feeling when experiencing the "Miura epiphany", is a SOLID strike on the ball.

We like to describe the molecular structure in Miura clubs (due to the miura technique of forging the club head with hosel off) by asking you to picture a mason jar in front of you. Now picture that jar full of marbles. That is the molecular structure of other companies. When you hit it on one of the marbles, it feels great, however, when you hit one of the gaps between the marbles, the result is a strange ball flight, a lack of feel on the shot, and the inkling that you didn't quite hit it right. Now picture that same jar, but filled with sand. This is a Miura molecular structure. When you hit the ball right, you have the prior mentioned "Miura epiphany".

I can honestly tell you all that Mr. Miura is the definition of a perfectionist. His goal, since he started forging clubs in 1957, is to create the perfect golf club. He will not conform to fads and make a golf club to sell first and perform second. His motto is that he will always make a golf club to perform first and sell second. This is the same reason Miura Golf does not pay players to play their clubs. Katsuhiro Miura did not get into the golf business to make money, he got into it with a extreme sense of pride in attempting to make the best golf club in the world.
[/quote]

Awesome information. Thanks for spelling it out.

[MizzyMan]

Wow. Thanks. That's fantastic info, hadn't heard all this before. As far as the marbles vs. sand comparison, maybe that's why they are the most consistent clubs I've ever played? I've played a ton of irons over the last 30 years, none are as consistent and accurate as the 1957's. I must sound like a salesman.

And that's what I've told anyone who'll listen; it's not that they are so soft, just so solid. I've hit other irons that were softer, but none as solid.

OK, so now sell me some hybrids and a driver.

Oh yeah, and you win, so pm me when you're in Dallas if you want to play. And bring lots of demoes! hahaha

[boss playa]

[quote name='MiuraGuru' timestamp='1350939449' post='5829293']
[quote name='MizzyMan' timestamp='1350827369' post='5823677']
Alright, you guys seem to know a lot about Miura. Who can clear up the dispute about who actually makes Miura irons? And where they are made. First one who can clear it up with FACTS, not conjecture, I'll take to Dallas National GC (top 100 course, #1 in Texas) whenever (if ever) you're in town.

I just would really like to know for sure. Tired of all this BS re: who really makes them, the foundry where they're made is not owned by Miura, etc. I know it shouldn't matter but it seems to matter more to the people that don't think they're anything special. And as an owner, just like if I bought a Ferrari, it'd be nice where to know who made them and where if you're paying a premium price.
[/quote]

every single Miura club is made in Himeji, Japan, at the Miura factory, owned by Miura, by Katsuhiro Miura, Shinei Miura and Yoshitaka Miura. Obviously there are employees at the factory to help out along the way ie. paint fill, etc, but everyday you can find the Miura boys sitting down working on the forgings, grinding clubs, etc.

Where some confusion comes from, is the fact that two buildings are used. The first building, is where the forgings happen. The steel is forged and shaped into the initial golf club head shape. This building is owned by Miura, and is operated by Miura employees. The heads are then transported to the second Miura owned building (about a mile down the road) where the clubs are ground finished, painted and packaged for shipment, all by Miura employees.

Anyone who is interested in watching Miura clubs be built from beginning to end is invited to visit the Miura factory. We are not hiding anything and have no idea where all these rumors come from! If you would like to visit the factory, just PM me and I can get you details. You can even sit next to Mr. Miura as he grinds a wedge or a set of clubs specifically for you! Any further questions, just ask.
[/quote]


So when is your tee time at dallas national?? Haha

[FLOGMR]

Well done Luke,......I find it odd that this question has been asked and answered so many times on the 'net........I am sure someone will raise the issue again just to get the same answers AGAIN.
Simply put....Miura makes Miura golf clubs....the idea that they are buying blank forgings from someone else is ludicrous!!

[RLL33]

It is odd that this seems to surface and re-surface on the net... But then, when something is created almost as art rather than purely as commerce, many in today's world seem baffled by it... <g> In fact, though, I believe earlier this year there was a long post right here by one of the GolfWRX founders that even showed photos of Miura-san producing his custom ordered set by hand right in the factory with his name on cards above the clubs. I guess you guys have to just chalk it up to having created something with a little mystery around it... <g>

And P.S., I still hope I can convince one of the Miura family to make me a 64* wedge from scratch one day... ;=]

--RLL

[MizzyMan]

I've seen the back-and-forth in the past but was hoping maybe a new poster might be able to shed some new light on the issue.

[morebeerbettergolf]

With the fact that they (Miura) have been in business for so long, have had the same story for so long, etc. I find it very hard to believe that all this time they have been buying blanks and the only people that have blown the whistle are a couple of relative newcomers to the industry that haven't really provided any solid evidence. I think the story gets a little hokey but it is marketing at its finest that's for sure, and the product is top notch. I will happily believe either side if real proof was presented either way. Until that time I will just continue to believe Miura makes an exceptional product and it doesn't really matter who forges them.

[matchavez]

[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1351089251' post='5838627']
With the fact that they (Miura) have been in business for so long, have had the same story for so long, etc. I find it very hard to believe that all this time they have been buying blanks and the only people that have blown the whistle are a couple of relative newcomers to the industry that haven't really provided any solid evidence. I think the story gets a little hokey but it is marketing at its finest that's for sure, and the product is top notch. I will happily believe either side if real proof was presented either way. Until that time I will just continue to believe Miura makes an exceptional product and it doesn't really matter who forges them.
[/quote]

Not long ago, people frowned on things that weren't mass-produced because mass-produced implied certain quality. This has come full circle; some now are realizing that the hand-made craftsmanship will cost more initially but ends up being the bargain in value, long-term ownership, and performance.

I personally celebrate the concept of "making things" like this. Factories are important, but whether Mr Miura ground my club or not, I appreciate the manner in which my clubs are made. Machines make enough things... when a person can make something that rivals or exceeds mass fabrication, it should be prized. The iron/wedge club head may be the last human part of golf equipment, save those that intentionally play with hickory, etc. If it requires marketing b.s. of samurai swords and myths, so be it. I enjoy it for the art of sculpture by a person.

May we all look to those smaller companies, doing it the right way, and give them our business when they earn it.

[RLL33]

@matchavez: Amen to that. Great comment.

[Acurro1]

Being someone who plays and sells Miura's, there is a different feel when the ball is hit pure with Miura's. Regardless of the model. As has been said by many of my customers, it feels like the ball is jumping off the face. From a fitting and builders standpoint, every iron head I have built is usually right on spec, or at most .5* off. Comparing them with some of the finest forgings from any manufacturer in the industry, no one comes close to that level of precision. They are in my opinion the finest made golf clubs in the world.

[FLOGMR]

This kind of nonsense is just part of the web experience.....It wouldn't matter how many Miura staff members, dealers or employees come on here and confirm that every Miura forging is done in Miura factories and by Miura employees....there is always someone who will say...."I read on some website that it is not true" and here we go again. It would not matter if Miura-san himself came on this site and confirmed it....someone would say "BS..it's all marketing"
Until each and every doubter visits the factory for themselves this kind of stuff will prevail.

BTW....hot off the press....I played golf with a guy last week who tells me that Ping has moved all it's operations to China...he said he read it on some golf website.

[ahbot]

[quote name='matchavez' timestamp='1351094838' post='5839175']
[quote name='morebeerbettergolf' timestamp='1351089251' post='5838627']
With the fact that they (Miura) have been in business for so long, have had the same story for so long, etc. I find it very hard to believe that all this time they have been buying blanks and the only people that have blown the whistle are a couple of relative newcomers to the industry that haven't really provided any solid evidence. I think the story gets a little hokey but it is marketing at its finest that's for sure, and the product is top notch. I will happily believe either side if real proof was presented either way. Until that time I will just continue to believe Miura makes an exceptional product and it doesn't really matter who forges them.
[/quote]

Not long ago, people frowned on things that weren't mass-produced because mass-produced implied certain quality. This has come full circle; some now are realizing that the hand-made craftsmanship will cost more initially but ends up being the bargain in value, long-term ownership, and performance.

I personally celebrate the concept of "making things" like this. Factories are important, but whether Mr Miura ground my club or not, I appreciate the manner in which my clubs are made. Machines make enough things... when a person can make something that rivals or exceeds mass fabrication, it should be prized. The iron/wedge club head may be the last human part of golf equipment, save those that intentionally play with hickory, etc. If it requires marketing b.s. of samurai swords and myths, so be it. I enjoy it for the art of sculpture by a person.

May we all look to those smaller companies, doing it the right way, and give them our business when they earn it.
[/quote]

Well said. I couldn't have said it better.

[chiromikey]

[quote name='FLOGMR' timestamp='1351103071' post='5839925']
This kind of nonsense is just part of the web experience.....It wouldn't matter how many Miura staff members, dealers or employees come on here and confirm that every Miura forging is done in Miura factories and by Miura employees....there is always someone who will say...."I read on some website that it is not true" and here we go again. It would not matter if Miura-san himself came on this site and confirmed it....someone would say "BS..it's all marketing"
Until each and every doubter visits the factory for themselves this kind of stuff will prevail.

BTW....hot off the press....I played golf with a guy last week who tells me that Ping has moved all it's operations to China...he said he read it on some golf website.
[/quote]
lol...not sure what the point is but all of ping's mass manufacturing operations have been moved to china. i guess some stuff you read on the internet is true.

[chiromikey]

[quote name='Acurro1' timestamp='1351095748' post='5839243']
Being someone who plays and sells Miura's, there is a different feel when the ball is hit pure with Miura's. Regardless of the model. As has been said by many of my customers, it feels like the ball is jumping off the face. From a fitting and builders standpoint, every iron head I have built is usually right on spec, or at most .5* off. Comparing them with some of the finest forgings from any manufacturer in the industry, no one comes close to that level of precision. They are in my opinion the finest made golf clubs in the world.
[/quote]
it's not fair to say no one comes close, unless you're just talking about the usdm market. i have a several sets of jdm's that were better spec'd than miuras. miuras are some of the best out there but there are a few just as good, if not arguably better.

[FLOGMR]

[quote name='chiromikey' timestamp='1351113908' post='5840785']
[quote name='FLOGMR' timestamp='1351103071' post='5839925']
This kind of nonsense is just part of the web experience.....It wouldn't matter how many Miura staff members, dealers or employees come on here and confirm that every Miura forging is done in Miura factories and by Miura employees....there is always someone who will say...."I read on some website that it is not true" and here we go again. It would not matter if Miura-san himself came on this site and confirmed it....someone would say "BS..it's all marketing"
Until each and every doubter visits the factory for themselves this kind of stuff will prevail.

BTW....hot off the press....I played golf with a guy last week who tells me that Ping has moved all it's operations to China...he said he read it on some golf website.
[/quote]
lol...not sure what the point is but all of ping's mass manufacturing operations have been moved to china. i guess some stuff you read on the internet is true.
[/quote]

What he was claiming was that ALL of the PING ops were moved to China.....he believed that the AZ facilities were shut down....the usual 'net news....A bit of truth with a lot of conjecture.

[chiromikey]

ah...i see what you're saying. yes, things can get distorted.